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Osho's books on CD-ROM, published and unpublished

Query:-

The Last Testament, Vol 2

Interviews with the World Press

Talks given from 21/08/85 pm to 21/09/85 pm

English Discourse series

30 Chapters

Year published:

The discourses listed as being titled "The Last Testament, Vol 1" are titled that way on the tape.

The book "The Last Testament, Vol 1" contains a different numbering scheme, as it contains interviews selected from the whole Ranch period. Volumes 2, 3 and 4 (as numbered on the tapes) will probably never be published as such.

All other series in the database have been numbered and titled as in the books they appear in, this will not be so for the Last Testament series, they will take their numbering from the original numbers given them.

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Query:-

The Last Testament, Vol 2

Chapter #1

Chapter title: None

21 August 1985 pm in Jesus Grove

Archive code: 8508215

ShortTitle: LAST201

Audio:

Yes

Video:

Yes

Length: 138 mins

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

INTERVIEW WITH SWAMI AMANO WILFRED, AUTHOR OF DAS ROTE TUCH, GERMANY

QUESTION:* THIS INTERVIEW WILL BE PART OF THE BOOK.

LOOKING BACK ON THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE NEO-SANNYAS MOVEMENT, IT APPEARS TO ME

VERY WELL PLANNED, JUST LIKE A SEED WHICH HAS IN ITSELF THE WHOLE PLAN OF THE

TREE. IN WHICH STATE OF GROWTH IS THE TREE OF YOUR RELIGION NOW?

ANSWER:* It is true, but nobody has planned it. Looking backward, you can see all the stages from the seed to the flower, but if you see at the seed, you will not be able to predict what is going to happen.

The seed is completely closed. It has potential, but we don't know whether the seed will fall in the right soil, or will fall on a stone and will never grow, or may be eaten by animals, destroyed by children. Nobody knows what is going to happen in the future; the future remains open, unknown, unknowable.

And that's how sannyas has grown. I have never planned it -- not the way an architect plans how the building is going to be. The building is a construction, it is not a growth. A construction can be planned, but growth is life. It is an opening into many dimensions. What root, what dimension it will take, nobody knows.

I have functioned from this innocence continuously. I am not a man who plans. I trust existence so much that planning means distrust. I know the existence has helped me up to this moment, and I have never done anything. The next moment also will be taken care of. To me, this trust is real religion -- not believing in Jesus Christ or God, or believing in The Bible, or Koran.

No. Living a life of spontaneity without any plan, trusting whatsoever happens is the right thing. And when I say whatsoever, I mean whatsoever, because we don't have any plan, we cannot have any judgment of what happens. If we have a plan, then there is every possibility of disappointment.

Existence has no obligation to follow my plan. That's why religious people have been telling all along the centuries, "Man proposes and God disposes." There is no God to dispose, we have disposed God himself, but if man proposes, he is bound to come to a point where there will be disappointment.

Our vision is small; existence is infinite. So whatsoever we can decide will be of no significance. In fact, it will create all kinds of hindrances. If existence is going to the south and we plan to go to the north, then there will be a tension between you and existence. This is the cause of so many people around the world living in anxiety, anguish, tension, disappointment, frustration. The reason is, that in the first place they started expecting, hoping, desiring, planning. Existence is not at fault. Existence is not deposing their proposals. Existence is simply going on its own way; and my experience is to just go with existence. I call it the "let-go way." So wherever the river takes....

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Yes, retrospectively you may be able to figure that there seems to be a planning, but there has never been a planning. But things have happened that should give every sannyasins courage to live without bothering about future. My whole experience proves this.

Just things go on happening. You allow them to happen, that's all. Don't hinder. Don't try to change the direction. Relax. Trusting like a small child holding his father's hand, unworried that the night is descending, that the way is long, that there is every danger in the way -- wild animals, thieves, robbers. he has no worry, he knows his father is holding his hand.

While the father is tense, in great anxiety, the child is enjoying every moment just by his side, not affected by his anxiety at all.

Q:* ARE YOU THE FATHER WHO IS HOLDING THE HAND OF THE SANNYASINS?

A:* Existence itself. A father is not much of help; that's what the old religions have provided man, they have provided God the Father. That is a small projection. The child had trusted the father, and now he is grown up. Now he knows perfectly well his father is fallible. When he was a child he knew his father is infallible, but not he is in a great dilemma. The father is fallible and he has become dependent on an infallible God.

This is the simple reason why every religion projected an infallible God far above, omnipotent, everywhere present so you need not worry that he may not be seeing you. Omniscient, knowing everything, past, present, future, so you need not worry that something he may bypass or may ignore. Omnipotent, all powerful, he can do everything, there is nothing which is impossible for him.

The religions used the child's psychology to create God the Father. But it is a dangerous game. It means you are depending on a fiction. It means you are living in a dream world. It means your prayers are addressed to nobody; no answer is going to come.

Existence is there, surrounding you everywhere; there is no need for any theologian to prove that existence is. There is a great need to prove that God exists. Still nobody has been able to prove it. For five thousand years, philosophers, theologians, logicians, all have been trying hard to prove the existence of God, but nothing is proved. So I am not projecting anything. I am simply saying you exist, it does not need any proof; the trees exist, the sun exists, the moon exists, the stars exist, so many animals, men, women. No theologian has ever tried to prove that existence exists.

Existence simply means that which exists; it needs no proof. It is solidly here, now. So I am not in favor of projecting any imaginary thing, because if you live with imagination you will never grow. You will remain a child. With God the Father, you will remain the child, retarded. It is your retarded child's need that a fiction of God is required. Without the God the retarded child feels nervous, afraid; he does not know where to go, what to do. Nobody is there to take care of him. Nobody is to guide him, nobody is.... All is darkness, and there seems to be no possibility of light.

But with the God in heaven, the retarded child is perfectly happy.

Q:* ISN'T THERE A DANGER THAT SANNYASINS PROJECT ALL THESE THINGS TO THE

MASTER?

A:* I am continuously destroying their projections. I am not allowing any projections as far as I am concerned, and this is being done for the first time. In the past, the so-called Masters were all allowing people to have all kinds of projections about them because it was a simple, logical thing: they were projecting God, the fiction of God was projected by those so-called Masters.

The people had no acquaintance with God, but they know the Master, so they were believing in the Master. And to create such a belief, faith, Masters have been doing things which are really ugly, which may be right for a street magician but are not right for a Master.

For example, all the miracles of Jesus -- either they never happened and were created when he was dead by his disciples, because in no Jewish literature contemporary to Jesus.... It is impossible to ignore such a man, he must have been a great news -- a man who walks on water. Do you think the contemporary literature can ignore him? A man who makes a dead follower come back to life again will be ignored? If 1/08/07

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these things are ignored, then what is news?

Not a single mention of Jesus Christ, not even his name. So the most probable all these miracles are created by the followers to create that man as a reliable representative of God. No ordinary man can walk on water, and he walks. Naturally, he has some direct relationship with the original source of life.

So first, either they were most probably invented around all the Masters of the world, and few cunning people had even managed to arrange them. I know about a man, a friend of mine, who was worshipped like a God. He has done a small thing. He was traveling from Havarrah* station, he entered into the first class.

He was a Mohammedan fakir. The ticket collector came, he asked for the ticket. The fakir said, "I never travel with a ticket. I am a God's man; everything belongs to me. You don't waste my time. Move on!"

And this was simply insulting. A government servant doing his duty, you are without ticket and behaving in such an arrogant manner. The ticket collector also became adamant. He said, "You get down the train, otherwise, I will call police. The train will not move until you get down. And don't force me, because I don't want a religious man to be arrested. You simply get out. I have nothing to do with you, but without ticket in this train, I am not going allow anybody to travel -- God's man or not."

The fakir said, "If you want me to get out, you will have to push me out. I am not going by myself."

One thing led to another, and finally the conductor became angry and pushed the* man outside the door, threw his box, his bags. The fakir laughed and he said, "Now, you were saying if I am inside the train the train will not move; now listen to me. If I am outside the train, the train cannot move!"

A crowd gathered, and the driver is trying his hard, the engineer is trying his hard. Nothing seems to be wrong, but the train is not moving. The guard is showing his flag, but the train is standing. By and by all the passengers got out, there was a huge crowd, and the fakir was standing there with closed eyes.

The station master came running and he said, "What is the matter?" The conductor said, "Now this is my duty." But people and crowd were so angry at the conductor, they were ready to kill him:"You insult a man of God? And we are being delayed unnecessarily? Somebody has to attend court, somebody has to do some business, somebody has some appointment -- who will be responsible for this?"

The crowd forced the conductor for an apology. The fakir said, "Touch my feet, and remember, never misbehave with any man who seems you to be religious and is traveling without ticket."

He had to touch his feet. The fakir entered the train and passengers had to rush into their compartments because the train started moving. That made him famous for thousands of people -- that this is divine power.

And there was nothing! He has bribed the conductor and the driver -- just two persons, and a miracle is done and he becomes a Godman.

Now it is possible Lazarus was Jesus Christ's friend. It can be managed very easily that his death is bogus, and Jesus revives him back to life, because Lazarus was not the only person who has died in Jesus's life. He was here for thirty-three years, in thirty-three years, thousands of people in Judea must have died.

And if the man knew how to bring them back to life, then he was really cruel, knowing the secret and not bringing the people back to life.

And only why Lazarus? A friend, who can conspire.

I am in that way the first man who is not allowing my people to make me an object of any kind of projection. Many of them will feel hurt, because their expectations it is a very complicated phenomenon. If I am a miracle man, then they are disciples of a miracle man. If I walk on water, then I am fulfilling their ego, too. And I am a totally different man -- I will start drowning in the water -- that will destroy their ego and they will most probably run away from me, never will mention my name, that they were my followers who drowned in the river.

With me only people who are really ready to grow can remain. Thousands have come to me, but they all wanted some fulfillment of their ego from me. But that I cannot do; I cannot be a source of their retardedness, stupidity, superstition. No, because I will not support, they had to find some other Master somewhere who was ready to support.

In fact, there have been moments when, without my knowing, they managed to project some things. I came only to know about it later on; but the moment I knew it, I destroyed it completely. A young man one night came. I have never seen him. He was well educated. He asked me that, "My doctor has suggested to come to you and ask for a glass of water."

I said, "But who is this doctor and why he should suggest me, because I am not a doctor and I don't treat patients?"

He said, "He has told me that you will refuse, but you remain there, you don't leave."

It must have been nine o'clock in the night. Up to twelve he was sitting there in front of me. I said, 1/08/07

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"Okay, you can sit." I continued my work, whatsoever I was reading. I went on reading, and once in a while he will say, "Why, I have to go four, five miles; my house is far away, my mother will be waiting." And because I am sick, my mother had come to visit me. She had gone to sleep, but seeing the light is on of my room and I am talking to somebody at twelve o'clock, she came out and asked what is the matter.

That young man just fell into my mother's feet and he said, "You help me! Just I am not wanting anything, just a glass of water."

So my mother said, "Why don't you give him a glass of water? And there is no problem in it, I will bring it."

I said to her, "You don't know: that glass of water can be very dangerous." She went in and brought a glass of water just to satisfy her, otherwise she was getting very much upset, that "What kind of compassion you have? He is simply asking one glass of water. If it can help him, why you should hinder?"

I gave the man, and as he drank the water, his whole face I could see changing. He touched his stomach; he said, "My God, the pain has gone."

He was suffering from stomach pain for six months, and the doctor finally got fed up of him because there was no pain, there was just something psychological. And the doctor knew me. I had to ask that man, that "It is good that your pain has disappeared, but be kind to me. Don't start talking about it to other people, otherwise there are so many sick people all around, and I don't want to be surrounded by all that kind of crowd."

He said, "No, I will not say. Just you do one thing. Once in a while I will come with a bottle of water, you just touch it. I will do."

He cured many people! And I told him that "I myself fall sick, and I have to call the same doctor who has sent you to me, and I am drinking water with my own hand. Can't you see a simple thing?" He was not willing to listen. He said, "I have experienced a miracle. Not only in myself, I have seen the miracle happening into others, and you have just touched the water."

It took me months to convince that man that it was just his mind, there was no pain, that's why the doctor had failed. Finally I had to call the doctor and tell the doctor, "Explain to him that medicines were creating more trouble because there was no pain and he was continuously asking for medicines." And the doctor told him, that "I had sent you here because your thing was completely mental. And you may have helped some people, because out of hundred, almost ninety percent people are suffering from mental diseases which don't exist. That's why there are so many "pathies" in the world: allopathy, naturopathy, homeopathy, acupuncture, ayurveda.

In every country there are many pathies, and the miracle is they all work. And their working is totally different, except allopathy, no pathy is scientific. but even allopathy cannot defeat those pathies --

percentage is the same. They also cure people: just ten percent people they will not be able to cure. But ninety percent people are there, they can be cured by any pathy, and these ninety percent people are the people allopathy will not be able to cure.

So if you look at the figures, those bogus pathies are doing greater work than allopathy. Allopathy is certainly going to cure the ten percent; about the ninety it cannot be certain. But those pathies certainly will not cure the ten percent, but about ninety percent they can manage.

I had a friend who was a doctor without any degrees, without any education medicine, but he was a great physician in that way -- if you count the people that he cured. In his house -- he was a bachelor and he lived alone -- his lab was worth seeing. His lab was all bogus. There was nothing in it -- test tubes, bottles, all kinds of colored water moving from one bottle into another bottle, and many kinds of beds and chairs, electric chairs. And any sick person seeing his lab will be immensely impressed. He never took the stethoscope in his hand. He has invented a certain bed ... you will have to lie down on it ... the stethoscope will be put on your chest, and above you there were two bottles of colored water and they will start jumping up and down because of the stethoscope. And you will look at them, and this man seems to be a great scientist. And he will be watching those colors, and that's how he will decide what color of medicine is going to help you. And it was all water.

He was caught, because the medical profession will not allow him.

I stood for him in the court. I said, "It is not a question of whether he has a certificate or not. The question is, the man managed thousands of people, from suffering he has saved them. And you bother too much about a piece of paper that he is not an MBBS, and all these MBBS who has filed the case against him. The reason is not that they are against him, the reason is that he is attracting the patients and they are all losing their business. And they cannot compete with him, he is really such a genius.

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The magistrate laughed. He said, "What you are saying is right. I know this man because he has even cured me. But as far as law is concerned, I have to prevent him from practicing medicine. And because I understand your argument and my own experience is in his favor, so I will not give him any punishment --

just he should stop being a physician any more.

I told the man, "You don't be worried. You move to another town in a faraway place where people don't know you. Take all your instruments and start again." And he is still doing.

And I told him, "Remember, that as medical profession becomes alert about you, change the place. You cannot remain in one place, they won't let you, and this time this magistrate has helped you. We don't know any other court will help you or not."

I have been trying in every possible way to destroy the projections. I don't want my people to have faith in me. I want them to experience me. I want them to experience what I have experienced. I can show the way. I cannot walk for them.... They will have to walk alone. I can give them encouragement, but I cannot give them the truth.

And the real function of the Master is to give you encouragement. Just by his presence, his blissful life, peaceful life, creates a certain milieu in which you can move easily toward dropping your plannings, projects, and allowing existence to happen. So what is happening in sannyas is not a doing on my part or on anybody's part; it is a happening.

And it has gone so beautiful, and it is going so beautifully. And I don't see that I can ever be disappointed, because in the first place I don't bother whether the river is going to the north or to the south.

Wherever it goes, wherever it lands, that's my home. That's where I always wanted to go, but I was not aware.

Q:* THE MODERN AGE, THE SO-CALLED AGE OF ENLIGHTENMENT, IS AN AGE OF

LIBERALIZATION FROM OLD BELIEF SYSTEMS AND RELIGIONS. YOU CLAIM YOUR RELIGION A MODERN RELIGION. ISN'T THIS A CONTRADICTION IN ITSELF?

A:* It is. It is a contradiction to call it a modern religion, or better, a religionless religion, which will make the contradiction more clear. But to me, existence allows contradictions. it is not logical; it is very illogical. In fact, existence depends on contradictions. What is life and death? Are not they contradictory?

But both are going to happen to one person, to the same person. In fact, a dead person cannot die. That would be consistent. If some dead person dies, it is absolutely logical; but what happens is contradictory. A living person, life suddenly becomes death.

If you look into existence -- and I am not a philosopher, I am simply existential, not even an existentialist, just existential, I see everywhere contradiction. Light cannot exist without darkness; darkness cannot exist without light. For example, ordinarily people think that a blind man must be living in darkness.

They are wrong. A blind man knows nothing of darkness, because to see darkness you need eyes. If a blind man cannot see light, he cannot see darkness. They are two poles of one phenomenon; for both, eyes are needed. Now it is something almost impossible to conceive what the blind man experiences: no light, no darkness, then what? Is there something else that he feels?

No. You must be thinking that a deaf person is enjoying silence continuously. You are wrong. A deaf person knows nothing of silence, because he knows nothing of sound. Sound and silence go together. Light and darkness go together. Everything -- if you find anything, you can predict that there must be something polar opposite to it. Without the polar opposite, it cannot exist.

For example, man cannot exist without women: they are polar opposites. And that's why they are so much attracted to each other, they are like positive and negative polarities of electricity. But because they are polar opposites, you have to understand the whole thing. First, they will be attracted to each other and they will be opposed to each other. This is the whole problem of all the couples in the world, of all lovers in the world. They are attracted to each other, and the same is the cause of their continuous fight. They are opposites to each other. That's why homosexuals became known as gay people -- they have no polarity, there is nothing to fight. They are always smiling (laughter) They look really gay. But their gayness, their delight is very superficial. It has not the tension of the opposites. The force is not there.

Have you ever heard any story about gay people which can be compared to the stories of Romeo and Julio, Majnu and Laila, Shiri* and Farhad*? Not a single love story about millions of gay people who have lived on the earth. There was not that attraction to create a story, there was no conflict. In fact, a man loving 1/08/07

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another man is simply loving his own mirror image. So you can go on loving your mirror image, there is no trouble.

Lesbians have no trouble with each other, but these are mirror images. If you want excitement, you have to pay for it. If you want a tremendous experience of ecstasy and love, then you have to fight for it. It all comes in single package. That's why I am continuously contradicting myself. It is absolutely in tune with existence.

I call my religion "religionless religion." I call it religionless because it has nothing to do with all the religions which have existed up to now. But still I call it religion, because I also want to deny the atheists, the anti-religious.

They both were part of the old game. The theist and the atheist, they were the polarity in the past. If I simply call this a religionless phenomenon, it becomes atheism, and it is not atheism. I want to insist that I am not a theist nor an atheist. In fact, both are idiots -- they are discussing about something which does not exist. One is saying God is; another is saying God is not. But both are concerned about God, and they are wasting their whole life arguing about God.

So I am giving a new term to religiousness. It is no more concerned with God, no more concerned with heaven and hell, no more concerned with all kinds of theologies or anti-theologies. It is a scientific search into your consciousness. But because it is a search into consciousness, I call it religion. I cannot call it simply science, because science is arrowed toward the objective reality. Religion is arrowed toward the subjective reality.

A scientist goes on working with all kinds of things -- except himself. In his lab, he has done all kinds of experiments, but he has completely forgotten himself. He is the only one in his lab who has not been even touched by any experiment. Religion is experimenting on your own consciousness, so I use a little different word just to make the distinction. Science experiments, religion experiences.

Science is objective, religion is subjective. Science is concerned with all that you can see, and religion is concerned with the one who sees. To make this distinction clear, I have to use a contradiction. There is no other way, otherwise, I will be falling into something wrong which is not my approach.

Q:* MY BOOK IS BASICALLY ABOUT YOUR COMMUNES IN GERMANY. IN GERMANY, THERE

ARE MORE SANNYASINS AND MORE COMMUNES THAN IN ANY OTHER COUNTRY. THE CRITICS

SAY THE REASON IS THAT THE GERMAN SOUL IS DRAWN TOWARD THE IRRATIONAL, AND

LONGS FOR A LEADER. ACCORDING TO YOU, WHY IS YOUR RELIGION AND WHY ARE YOU SO

ATTRACTIVE FOR GERMANS?

A:* The reason is simple. What the critics say is absolutely wrong. The reason is that Adolf Hitler has cheated Germany, deceived its youth as nobody else has ever done to any country. They are so much frustrated with political leadership, messiahs -- Adolf Hitler was pretending to be a messiah. he thought that he is a reincarnation of Old Testament prophet Elijah. And after the second world war, Germany has seen something which no other country knows about. Millions of people were killed, and the people of Germany itself were not aware what is happening. They were not aware that one million Jews were being gassed, and what they see the smoke from chimneys of concentration camps are thousands of peoples' lives becoming smoke.

Adolf Hitler cheated them by saying that you are the people who are meant to rule over the world. Of course, the people cannot say that they were not responsible in supporting Adolf Hitler. They were responsible as much as Adolf Hitler. It was a mutual thing -- Adolf Hitler was giving them a great ego project -- to conquer the whole* world. And they were overjoyed that they had got a prophetic leader, charismatic leader. And for five years continuously he was winning, which made Germany feel that now there is no doubt at all. The man goes on being victorious, so more and more support to Adolf Hitler. But finally, all ambitious projects fail -- existence cannot support any idiotic thing -- sooner or later. Five years does not mean anything in existence, not even five seconds. So just a little dream that Germany saw, and the glory, and then the tremendous fall. Almost as if Hitler had taken Germany to the Everest, and from the Everest, the fall.

It has created two things in Germany -- that's why it becomes my country. One, now no Adolf Hitler can deceive them. Enough is enough; no prophet, no messiah can deceive them. They have suffered too much.

They know perfectly well that nobody is special. Neither German, nor Italian, nor English -- nobody is 1/08/07

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special. The suffering that they have gone through and the suffering they created for the whole world, at least proves one thing: that nobody is meant to rule over the world. And purity of blood is simply nonsense.

You cannot tell whether a certain blood is German, English, Chinese, Hindu, Mohammedan -- impossible.

There are blood types, but they are not German, Italian English ... blood is simply blood. There is no pure blood or impure blood.

So on the one hand, a tremendous frustration with Adolf Hitler and what he did to the country, and on the second hand, a guilt that they were also part of this stupid game. Now they want to get rid of all messiahs, and they want to get rid of the guilt, too, that they are carrying within themselves.

They have no other alternative than me, because every religion will create guilt. They cannot be freed from guilt; all religions are based on guilt.I am the only person who frees you from all guilt. There is no thing as sin -- there are mistakes, and to err is human. And, in fact, that is the only way to learn; there is no other way to learn. So, I say to my people, commit as many mistakes as possible, just don't commit the same mistake again. That is stupid, not sin. Committing the same mistake again simply means you are not watching what you are doing, you are not being intelligent. And because of your mistakes you are not going to suffer in hell, you will suffer into your mistakes themselves.

If you don't commit a mistake, the reward is there. There is no need for a God and a paradise where all those people who did not commit mistakes will be rewarded. There is no need. Each act brings its punishment or its reward. And there is no need to feel guilt because there is no idea of sin in my approach to life. Sin is the opposite polarity of guilt. If you have any idea of sin, then the idea of guilt is bound to be there.

No religion of the world can free the German youth from a tremendous burden of guilt. In fact, they will exploit it. And no religion of the world can make the German youth independent, free from all these saviors, prophets, messiahs, because they are dependent on these people themselves. It is a strange thing that I am the only person who can free you from messiahs and who can free you from guilt.

Naturally, Germany needs me, and I need Germany. Soon you will see it: whole Germany will be my commune. Adolf Hitler has made the ground for me, that's why I have a certain love for that man. Without him, my work in Germany would have been impossible. It is difficult in America because there has been no Adolf Hitler -- just a poor Nixon!

Q:* A FEW WEEKS AGO A YOUNG WOMAN WAS VERY MUCH INTERESTED IN SANNYAS AND

VERY MUCH AFRAID THAT SHE MIGHT BECAME A SANNYASIN, SAID TO ME, "BUT I HATE THAT

PERSONAL CULT AROUND BHAGWAN." I TRIED TO EXPLAIN HER THAT THERE WAS NO

PERSONAL CULT, BUT I WASN'T VERY SUCCESSFUL. CAN YOU HELP ME?

A:* Just tell her that if she hates enough, she is already in love with me. She cannot escape. She can delay, but hate is already a relationship, and who wants to remain in a relationship of hate? Because it is not bothering me, it is bothering her. I don't know about her, but her hatred will torture her. She will have to change it into love. Only then she will be free of that torture. One thing.

Second thing: Bhagwan does not mean God or personal God. In fact, the problem has arisen because in India there are three religions. And three religions have three different languages. Hinduism has Sanskrit as its language; Buddhism has Pali as its language; Jainism has Prakrit* as its language.

Hinduism believes in a personal God. So when in Hindu scriptures the word Bhagwan is used, it means a personal God Buddhism and Jainism don't believe in any God; they are Godless religions. So when in Buddhist and Jainist scriptures Bhagwan is used, it simply means "the blessed one." That is actually the meaning of the word: the blessed one. it has nothing to do with God.

I am reminded of H.G. Wells and his famous statement about Gautam Buddha. He does not believe in God, but he is known to his disciples as Bhagwan Gautam Buddha. H.G. Wells was very much puzzled when he was writing a world history, so he inquired what is the matter? Gautam Buddha denies God, and his followers are calling him God. Then he came to know that in Pali, Bhagwan means the blessed one, it has nothing to do with God.

For God in English there is only one word; in India there are many. The Buddhist, to deny God -- they don't believe in God -- but to deny you have to use a word. The word that is used is Ishwara. The Jainas also deny God, so naturally you have to use a word; they use the word PParamatma. Bhagwan is not used by both of the religions for God; it is used for the enlightened person. And it simply means one who has come 1/08/07

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to a fulfillment so deep that there is nothing missing any more.

So tell that woman that I myself don't believe in any God, personal or impersonal. And I am not a God.

And she need not be worried about that. But I insist that I am certainly the blessed one. That I cannot deny, because that would be a lie. And my whole function is to make you also the blessed one. If I am myself are not in that space, how I can lead you into that space? Ask that woman, "Do you want to be the blessed one?

Then there is no other way than falling in love with someone who is already the blessed one. Or if you want to be a miserable one, you can go to Vatican -- the polack pope is there -- and be miserable as much as you want. So make it clear that it has something to do with self-realization; it has nothing to do with God.

Q:* MANY ASPECTS OF YOUR COMMUNE AND YOUR VISION ARE VERY SIMILAR, IN MY VIEW, TO KARL MARX'S VISION OF THE CLASSLESS SOCIETY, AS THERE IS NO PERSONAL PROPERTY, NO MONEY. EVERYBODY GETS WHAT HE NEEDS, EVERYBODY WORKS OUT OF JOY AND

CREATIVITY, AND FEELS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE WHOLE, NO POLITICIANS, NO NATIONS, ETC.

NEVERTHELESS, YOUR COMMUNE FEELS TOTALLY DIFFERENT FROM ANY MARXIST VISION.

THE MARXISTS OF TODAY SEEM TO BE MORE AFRAID OF YOU THAN ANY OTHER PEOPLE. CAN

YOU SAY A FEW WORDS TO THAT?

A:* It is true. The Marxists have to be more afraid than anybody else, because the others are really fading out on their own accord. The real conflict and the decisive conflict is going to be between my red colors and the communist red flag. There is nobody else in the field. And their fear is natural because they cannot condemn me on all these points. So everything that Karl Marx wanted -- a classless society, a nationless world, and everybody according to his need -- I am in perfect agreement. What I am not in agreement is that Karl Marx thought that consciousness is only a by-product of material things: chemistry, physics. About that he is absolutely wrong.

He had no right even to say that, because he has never meditated. He had never sat in silence even for one hour in his whole life to look in what he is talking about. And on what grounds? -- because he pretends to be a scientific thinker. He calls his philosophy "scientific communism." Now that pretension won't stand.

If he is scientific, on what grounds he says that consciousness is a by-product? He has to prove in a scientific lab, mixing all the chemicals and things that a man is made of. And if consciousness arises, he has proved his point, but he never entered any scientific lab in his whole life. He was sitting in the British Museum reading books on economics, politics, but he never knew anything about the Eastern ways of finding oneself. All that he knew about religion was Christian religion and Jewish religion. He was a Jew.

Jews have contributed such great people to the world: Jesus, Karl Marx, Sigmund Freud. And they all have given as much insanity to the world as possible. These three people -- this is the real trinity of the whole insanity of humanity. And the whole credit goes to the Jews. All three were Jews.

Karl Marx knew only about Judaism and Christianity. And both are third rate religions. there is nothing, they don't have any philosophic ground. Their arguments are childish. Compared to the Eastern religions, Buddhism, Taoism, Jainism, they are simply in the kindergarten school. To condemn them is very easy; it does not need a great mind to condemn Judaism or Christianity. It is so simple a job. But to condemn Gautam Buddha is not a simple job. You will have to face the basic thing -- meditation, because on meditation his whole structure is based. And meditation is not a belief. You have to experience it. So that is the trouble for the Marxist.

In India, they were constantly coming in contact with me. They have written books against me, because I seem to be more dangerous to them than anybody, because nobody in the whole world -- no religion -- is capable of giving a counter-argument. They cannot prove the existence of God. They cannot prove that Jesus was born of a virgin girl. They cannot prove that Moses really saw God or simply got mad in the hot desert roaming for forty years -- anybody can go, it is nothing special to Moses. Forty years wandering hungry, thirsty, people dying, and he was responsible for all this, because he has promised the people to take them to the holy land and there was no sign. People were dying. Forty years is a long time. The original people who had started the pilgrimage had all gone. By the time he declared that we have arrived to the holy land.... I can say with certainty that it was not the holy land he has arrived, it was simply despair that now people cannot be deceived any more -- this is the holy land.

Israel is not worth anything! If he had stopped a little earlier, Jews would have all the oil of the world.

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place where is nothing. And that was holy land! And Moses was God's representative. And what kind of God wouldn't say, "Moses stop! This is the place." (laughter) I don't think he saw God. In a desert heat, forty years can drive anybody mad with so much responsibility. And everybody was torturing him. Where is the Holy Land? People were dying, he was not able to arrange for their food and water. This man is in the foundation of Judaism. He had no time to meditate. He had no time to create a scientific methodology about meditation. He has never heard the word meditation. All that he knew was prayer.

Prayer presupposes God. Communists are not worried with Jews. All their religious doctrines can be very easily finished, there is nothing in it. And Jesus is just an offshoot of Judaism; he does not bring anything new to the world. He simply repeating Jewish ideology. And even Jews got fed up with this man.

He has nothing to offer. All that he say repeats scriptures, so any rabbi can do in a better way.

He was uneducated, illiterate. Any rabbi would have been far more philosophical, intellectual. And this carpenter's son is declaring himself the only begotten son of the Jewish God. Remember: it is the JEWISH

God. He has nothing to do with Hindu God; he has never heard about Hindu God. He has nothing to do with any other God; his God is the Jewish God. Now Jews are angry, naturally. God giving birth to his only begotten son into a poor carpenter's house. He was born in a stable. God could not manage a better place for the fellow? Whole of his life he was riding on a donkey. God could not even manage a Rolls Royce for him.

And the things that he was saying were nothing but old scripture. And he had to repeat that scripture because he wanted to prove that he is the promised messiah of the Jews, that he has come to save the Jews.

Jews could not accept; this was simply insulting. This man is their messiah! And all his following consisted of twelve fools! Those fools are called apostles. When he was crucified, they all had escaped.

Only one remained there, and that one also denied that he knows Jesus, because people looked at him and found that he seems to be a stranger here. He does not belong to Jerusalem. They insistently asked, "Who are you?" He said, "I have come to Jerusalem for a pilgrimage, and I have nothing to do with this man. I don't know even anything about this man you are crucifying." Eleven escaped, one denied: these were the followers.

So it was very easy for Karl Marx to criticize Christianity and Judaism, but facing me, Karl Marx will be in difficulty, because I have the whole heritage of thousand of years of inner experimentation in the East.

He will not be able to argue that consciousness is a by-product. He will have to prove it, because he says he is a scientific thinker. Then why, on what grounds you are accepting this as a belief -- calling consciousness a by-product of matter? In fact, modern physicists* proved just the otherwise: matter does not exist any more.

Karl Marx is simply out of date -- absolutely out of date -- because he was thinking only matter exists and consciousness is a by-product. Now physics has come to the conclusion that matter does not exist. Then what exists? Except consciousness, there is no other alternative left. Something certainly exists.

I was arguing with communists and they were in difficulty. I was proving that Marx is unscientific; he is simply an atheist believer. And the man who is not even scientific about the most important thing --

consciousness -- how can you rely on this man about other matter? In fact, in all other matters, he has proved wrong. He had never thought that revolution would happen in Russia. If somebody had suggested that revolution would happen in Russia, he would have simply laughed. That revolution would happen in China, he would not have conceived. Revolution was going to happen in a capitalist country like America, where it has not happened and there are no signs at all that it is going to happen. Communist party in America is the weakest party in the whole world.

In any other country, communist party is far more stronger. In America what communist party? what revolution. Here it should happen, because here the rich are super rich and the poor are super poor. The distinction is vast than anywhere else. Marx's predictions have not proved right. In a poor country like Russia and China, revolutions happened. And whatever he was thinking about the revolution and its after effects, nothing of them has proved right. He was thinking once the revolution has happened, the country will not have any classes. It will take maybe five years, ten years, but seventy years have passed and in Russia, the classes still exist. Their names have changed. The poor is still poor; in fact, more poor than in America. And the communists who are in power are more powerful than any rich man has ever been in power. So there is a new class division: the powerful and the powerless. In America there is a possibility -- I say only a possibility -- because at least one is free to express -- in Russia there is no possibility for revolution. Marx cannot be born in Russia. There is no way for anybody to say anything different from the government policy. Classes are there and there is no sign of their disappearing, they are becoming more 1/08/07

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consolidated. Marx thought that those who were in power soon will decentralize power, but they go on centralizing power.

When Stalin died -- and perhaps no man had that much power for that long time, for almost forty years he was omnipotent. At least in Russia, he was God, had all the qualities. His detectives made him omniscient. He was looking at everyone, watching at everyone. People could not even talk to their spouses, because one never knew that the woman may be a detective or the husband may be a detective. People cold not talk to their kids, because those kids belonged to the children's communist party, and to prove themselves as loyal to the country and to communism, they were speaking to their leaders everything that was happening in the family: what the father said, what the mother said. Wives had their own communist party; husbands had their own communist party. Everybody, for the first time in history, was completely surrounded. For the first time, walls were hearing you.

Such slavery, and Marx wanted that great freedom would happen. Marx was thinking that once rich people are no more there, immense riches will suddenly fall from the sky. That has not happened. The Russian people are very poor people. So communists are worried with me because I say they have only distributed poverty. And that is not my way. I also want a classless society, but not enforced by a dictatorship. A classless society because people have so much money that nobody wants to hoard it.

For example, in a desert, if you have an oasis, you hoard it. You keep people on guard that nobody takes the water. The water is scarce. But when water is enough available, there is no question of hoarding it. You don't hoard water for tomorrow, because tomorrow the tap will be available. Money can be created, and to me just as there are people who are born poets, born painters, born scientists, there are people who are born wealth creators. Everybody is not Henry Ford, and cannot be. Everybody cannot be a Rockefeller, and if you destroy Henry Ford, Rockefeller, Morgan and other people who continuously create wealth, the poor people will not become rich. They will be poorer than before because the creators of wealth are gone.

I would like money to be respected in the same way that any other art is respected. Wealth should not be condemned; in fact, we should encourage people to become wealthier. I would like a classless society which is totally rich. Marx's classless society is totally poor. I want it on the highest peak to be equal, and he wants people crawling on the earth to be equal.

My commune is working in that way. Secondly, I respect the individual: Marx has no respect for the individual. Marx is utterly a socialist. Society is important, all individuals can be sacrificed for the society.

To me that is not the case, on the contrary, every individual is so unique and valuable that he cannot be sacrificed for nation, for society, for ideology, no.

So my commune will be rich. It will have all affluence, abundance, but still individuals will be free.

They will not be forced to be of equal size. Somebody prefers a Ferrari and somebody prefers a Mercedes. I don't think that everybody should have a Ferrari whether he likes it or not. Individuals should be free. Not only about expressing their words, because all these things make your individuality. Your car is also part of you, your expression. Your dress is also part of you, your expression. Everything should be allowed to individuals, but things should be in such abundance. For example, in this small commune there are only one thousand five hundred people are permanent residents. We have hundreds of cars, hundreds of buses, five aeroplanes, the whole commune is centrally air-conditioned. Everybody, whatsoever his need, the commune tries to provide it.

Still, they are not cut equally -- that your size should be equal -- that everybody has to be six feet, then those who are six and five, five inches have to be cut. And those who are five inches less, they have to be given traction and lengthened. This is stupid.

To me, classless society simply means that we give everybody an opportunity, an equal opportunity to be himself. If somebody wants to live naked, in my society he will be allowed. In Russia, no. In China, no.

In China he has to use a certain dress determined by the government. Nobody can even have the freedom to be naked. This kind of inhuman society is not my vision.

My vision is people having so much that they can have anything they want. There is no need to hoard, because everything is always available, you can get it any moment you want. And still there will be differences. Somebody does not want to use car at all, likes walking. Now you cannot force car on him, that you have to go in a car because it is an equal society and everybody has to be in a car. People should be allowed their differences. All should be equally allowed to be themselves, and at the highest peak. that is why communists are very much against me.

In fact, all the religions are against me. The communists are against me, the fascists are against me, the capitalists are against me. It seems only I am for myself, nobody else in the whole world.

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Q:* UP TO NOW, MOST OF THE SANNYASINS DON'T LIVE IN THE COMMUNE. RECENTLY, YOU

HAVE SAID -- I DIDN'T HEAR THE LECTURE -- ALL YOUR SANNYASINS SHOULD JOIN THE

COMMUNE. AND FOR ME, AND I GUESS FOR MANY OTHER SANYASINS,THAT CREATES A BIG

PROBLEM. I MYSELF HAVE TWO VERY SMALL CHILDREN AND A BEAUTIFUL WIFE -- SHE IS NOT

A SANNYASIN. WE WOULD LIKE TO LIVE TOGETHER WITH OTHER SANNYASINS, BUT AS THE

COMMUNES ARE NOW, WE CAN'T LIVE TOGETHER IN A COMMUNE, IN A BIG COMMUNE. SO

WHAT TO DO?

A:* Take the challenge and accept the trouble of it. Don't choose the easier way. The easier will be, live outside with your wife, with your children, because that is where you are, nothing has to be changed.

Moving into a commune will bring many problems, many of which you are not yet aware. Your wife may fall in love with another sannyasin, most probably, she will do. You may fall in love with some sannyasin, in fact, you have already been thinking! So troubles are going to be there.

But my suggestion is choose the way where troubles are, because one grows through them, facing them, encountering them. In the outside world, you will remain more safe, more secure -- a salary, a job, a position, a house -- in the commune you have nothing. All that you have you pour into the commune's pool.

It is risky, but to take risks is one of the basic devices for growth.

Many kinds of new dimensions will open to you. For example, you think you have a very loving wife.

Give it a chance -- whether it is just an idea, or a reality. If she is a very loving wife, she will soon fall in love with somebody.

Q:* WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN, BECAUSE THEY ARE REALLY VERY SMALL?

A:* They will be part of the commune. That's my approach toward children, that children should not be possessed by the parents. It is creating thousand and one psychological difficulties for the children.

Humanity has not yet been aware that family is one of the most criminal institutions in history, because it gives the child a very limited area of growth. The husband, the wife, the child -- a very small area. And the child learns to depend on the father, on the mother; he learns their habits, learns their religion, learns everything from them. His learning is very linear. He is not rich in his learning. If the child is a boy, he loves his mother and hates his father. If the child is a girl, she loves the father and hates the mother: the mother is almost a competitor. You can see small girls flirting with their fathers, not knowing; it is simply the way of nature. That is the only man available. If the family moves into the commune and dissolves itself into the commune, the children have a tremendously vast scope. Hundreds of uncles, hundreds of aunts, and every woman is different, every man is different. And the child will have the opportunity to learn from everybody.

You can give your love, but you should not possess the child. You should give him freedom to move, relate with as many people as possible. It is one of the greatest problems for psychologists that no man ever finds a women who is totally satisfying; neither a woman ever finds a man who is just tailored for herself. It is always either the coat is loose, or it is too tight, because it is not tailored for you. The boy raised in a family unconsciously gets continuously conditioned by the mother. In his unconscious, an image of the mother becomes impressed, so deeply that his whole life he will try to find a woman who is exactly his mother. But that is impossible -- existence never repeats. So whenever he falls in love, it is only part of the woman that resembles his mother, but it is always part. So when you are just having a love affair, everything goes good, because something in you resembles father of the girl, something in the girl resembles your mother. It is good -- on the beach, in the garden -- you both are at your best. But when you get married and you have to live twenty-four hours, then it becomes troublesome because you cannot pretend that the whole is only that part with which you were in love. The whole is far bigger, and when the whole starts showing it -- and it happens from both the side -- the woman wonders that she never knew this man, she could not have conceived that this man will be such. The man cannot conceive that this women will throw every night tantrums and pillows and scream, and neighbors will come, and even if you are right you have to apologize, otherwise she goes on screaming and crying. You have never thought about this; on 1/08/07

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the beach she had never behaved like this. (laughter)

No couple in the whole world is absolutely fitting, and the reason is the family. If a child is raised by the commune, then he will not have a fixed image. He has known so many women, one day he sleeps with one aunt, another day with another aunt. Once in a while he sees his mother, too, once in a while his father.

Otherwise, there are so many uncles and everybody is loving to him. He never gets impregnated with one idea; he has a very vague sense of womanhood, not of a particular woman. The same is true about the girl.

She has a certain idea of what it means to be a man, but she has no fixed picture. There will be no disappointment in their life because they will be more flexible, they will be more adjusting, and they will be able to cope with new realities that may be coming, because they have seen so many people they know that people are different. And they don't have some picture to compare with. They can love more; they can accept even difficult parts of the other person, and they will never be angry with their parents. otherwise every boy remains angry with his father because he was the person who was making love to his mother. He was the hindrance, otherwise, he would have been the lover. That's what he wanted, but the father was always there, and he was stronger and bigger and powerful, so he had to repress himself.

No girl ever forgives the mother, because she was always there around. And as the girl grows, comes of age, the mother is continuously watching whether the father is taking too much interest in the girl, or the girl is taking too much interest in the father. And she is continuously cutting and creating a barriers between them. The girl can understand; she cannot going to be forgiving. She will always be angry.

In a commune, the child will not have any anger against the father or the mother. In fact, his experience of richness will be so vast because a commune is already a world. For a child, five thousand people are enough an experience. With this experience he will enter into the world. He will not need God the Father.

He will not need the priest, the father. He will be independent enough, because he was never dependent on the father or the mother; he was not dependent on anyone. To belong to the commune means he was independent; he was not dependent on anybody. so he has been nourished and nurtured into freedom.

And that should be the new man.

So my suggestion is you take the risk and help other sannyasins also who are outside the commune to move to the commune, because only in a commune you will have a real experience of sannyas. Outside, you cannot have; the world is rotten, simply a graveyard. Drop all security of the world, safety of the world, and take the risk.

And don't be afraid. Just look at me. Not a single cent. When I resigned from the university, my father started crying. He said, "What are you doing?" I said, "from this moment, I want to live totally with existence. If existence wants me to be hungry, I will be hungry and thankful." He said, "You have always been difficult. Now you have taken the most dangerous step." I have given my whole property to other children, because I had told him that "I don't want any inheritance because when I refused your religion --

which was my inheritance, when I refused your party politics -- which was my inheritance, how can I accept your money, your house, your lands, your garden? That will be very insincere of me. So I cannot receive, because I have rejected everything and I receive only the money, I don't receive anything from you. Your love, your blessing is enough." So he had distributed the whole money. He said, "You should have told few days before. I would have kept a part for you reserved any time you are in difficulty." I said, "I will never be in difficulty; nowhere I will be in difficulty. For the simple reason because I know how to love. And that's enough; I can take any risk. I can jump into any challenge, because I know how to love. I know how to trust.

And it is such a tremendous joy to discover every day that you are still here, with not a single cent. I must be the poorest man in the whole world.

Q:* YOU DON'T LOOK LIKE!

A:* I live like an emperor, because what a poor man can lose? I live like an emperor -- even an emperor is worried about losing land, money, this and that -- I don't have anything, so I can live as no emperor has ever lived -- without any anxiety. But the fact is that I am the poorest man in the world. Even beggars have their account.

So don't be worried. Just take a jump. And next time when you come here, bring your loving wife!

Q:* THANK YOU!

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Query:-

The Last Testament, Vol 2

Chapter #2

Chapter title: None

22 August 1985 pm in Jesus Grove

Archive code: 8508225

ShortTitle: LAST202

Audio:

Yes

Video:

Yes

Length: 109 mins

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

INTERVIEW WITH QUESTLINE -- CJOR RADIO, VANCOUVER, CANADA QUESTION:* THERE IS A LOT OF TALK ABOUT THE NEW AGE, AQUARIAN AGE, YOU TALK

ABOUT A NEW MAN. I HEARD, YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT A MERGING OF ZORBA AND

BUDDHA, AN ALIGNING OF THE SPIRITUAL AND THE MATERIAL. CAN YOU PLEASE DEFINE

ENLIGHTENMENT?

A:* It simply means becoming aware of yourself. Ordinarily, a man is awake to everything around him, but is not aware who is awake and aware of all the things around. So we remain on the periphery of life and the center remains in darkness. To bring light to that center, consciousness to that center is what enlightenment is.

It is just being absolutely centered in yourself, focusing all your consciousness upon yourself as if nothing else exists, only you are.

Q:* YOUR OWN ENLIGHTENMENT CAME AT THE AGE OF TWENTY-ONE?

A:* Right.

Q:* AND YOU LIKENED IT TO AN ATOMIC EXPLOSION, YOU SAID IT WAS LIKE A LIGHT THAT

NEVER LEFT YOU. HOW WOULD YOUR PERCEPTION THEN, BEING ENLIGHTENED, DIFFER

FROM PEOPLE THAT HAVE NOT AWAKENED TO THEIR OWN ENLIGHTENMENT?

A:* Just the same way as a person is asleep. How are you going to define the difference between the person asleep and the person who is awake? The person asleep is dreaming or, not dreaming, but one thing is certain -- he is not aware that he is asleep.

The man who is awake, whatever he is doing, one thing is certain, he is aware that he is awake. This is the only difference on the spiritual level, too. Spiritually asleep person is not aware that he is asleep; and spiritually awakened person is aware that he is awake, and of course, he is aware of all those who are 1/08/07

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asleep.

The awakened person has two definite positions: one, that he is aware; second, that all others who are around him are asleep. But the asleep person has none of these two. He is not aware he is asleep and he is not aware that others around him are asleep.

Q:* WHAT IS BLOCKING THE AWAKENING IN MOST PEOPLE?

A:* Just a continuous flow of thoughts.... A continuity of thoughts. That is functioning as a barrier. That is the layer that keeps you unaware; either you are thinking about the past or you are thinking about the future, but nether the past exists nor the future. And between these two is the very small gap of the present which you go on missing. That is the point where awakening happens.

That small gap, I make it equivalent to atomic gap. Smallest possible gap which slips so quickly that if you are not completely free from thoughts, you are going to miss it.

Q:* I SAW SOME DEER IN RAJNEESHPURAM. THEY WERE OBVIOUSLY VERY MUCH IN THIS

MOMENT. IS MAN'S INTELLECTUAL MIND THE BAGGAGE THAT WE'RE CARRYING AROUND AND

BLOCKING OUR OWN AWARENESS?

A:* That is the only mind you have. And the deer are not aware of the present; it is you who are thinking that they are aware of the present. They are not. They are neither aware of the present, nor they are aware of the past, nor of the future. They don't have any thought process.

It is man's prerogative to be aware of the past, to be aware of the future; and, if he makes effort, then there is a potential in him to be aware of the present. No animal can become enlightened.

Every man has the potential to become enlightened. If he does not become, he is responsible -- nobody else is responsible for it.

Q:* WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT ENLIGHTENMENT, AND BEING IN THIS PRESENT MOMENT, SURELY THERE MUST BE PLANNING FOR THE FUTURE. THERE MUST BE A CERTAIN AMOUNT

OF PLANNING THAT'S GONE AROUND RAJNEESHPURAM. CAN YOU EXPAND ON THAT

DIFFICULTY THAT I HAVE IN UNDERSTANDING WHAT YOU ARE SAYING?

A:* I have not planned anything.

Q:* WELL, THE PEOPLE AROUND YOU HAVE.

A:* And they are asleep, and they are free to plan.... They are sound asleep and doing great things! I am the only person who is not doing anything!... Because I cannot afford to dream and to project and to do.

They can afford; they are asleep.

Q:* IN TERMS OF MY MODEL OF SOCIETY THAT I'VE BEEN BROUGHT UP IN, IF EVERYONE

WERE TRULY AWAKENED, I HAVE TO SIT BACK AND SAY, "WELL, WHAT TYPE OF SOCIETY

WOULD IT BE?" THERE HAS TO BE PLANNING; BUT CAN YOU PLAN IN THE NOWNESS OF THIS

MOMENT FOR THE FUTURE?

A:* If everybody is awakened, there will be no planning and there will be no need for planning. People will spontaneously function. For example, I have never planned my life; I don't know what I am going to say the next sentence. You will ask the question and my response will be there; but it is not prepared. No planning has gone into it.

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So if everybody was enlightened, we will have a totally different world, almost inconceivable now. You will not have atomic weapons, you will not have war. You will not have crimes; you will not have courts.

You will not have politicians. You won't have saints, popes; these all will disappear. You will have very innocent, simple but joyous people all around. They will be doing things, but they will be very simple things, not complicated. Nothing like nuclear weapons. They will make houses, but they will not have architecture and schools for architecture. They will do whatsoever is needed simply, without getting into deep details. They will start things without knowing where it is going to end.

That's how I have lived; without planning for all these three decades, not knowing anything about tomorrow. But everything has gone perfectly well. In fact, I cannot conceive it could have been better.

Q:* HOW MANY ENLIGHTENED BEINGS ARE THERE? AT THIS POINT IN TIME?

A:* I don't know. There is no way of knowing.

Q:* DO YOU THINK THE EXPERIENCE OF ENLIGHTENMENT FOR OTHER INDIVIDUALS

WOULD BE THE SAME AS IT WAS FOR YOU -- THAT ATOMIC EXPLOSION YOU REFERRED TO?

A:* Not necessarily.... It is very unique and very individual.

Q:* AND THAT'S WHY IT'S SO DIFFICULT FOR SOMEONE LIKE YOURSELF TO EXPLAIN WHAT

IT IS?

A:* I am explaining it.... And I am explaining it better than anybody else has ever explained it.

Q:* YOU'VE WRITTEN ... 350 BOOKS HAVE NOW BEEN PUBLISHED ON THE SUBJECT.

A:* I have not written a single book.

Q:* LET'S TALK ABOUT HOW TO GET TO ENLIGHTENMENT, OR TO BECOME AWAKENED TO

YOUR ENLIGHTENMENT. I'VE READ SOME OF YOUR WORK AND YOU SEEM TO SAY THAT

THERE'S TWO WAYS TO DO IT: THE ALONE ROUTE, THROUGH MEDITATION; AND THE OTHER, THROUGH RELATIONSHIPS.

WOULD YOU TALK ABOUT RELATIONSHIPS BECAUSE IN NORTH AMERICA RELATIONSHIPS

COME AND GO, COME AND GO ... AND I DON'T SEE THAT AWAKENING THAT YOU WERE

TALKING ABOUT.

A:* The basic thing is meditation; but meditation can happen in two ways. Either it can happen in your absolute aloneness, unrelated to anybody. You can move inwards in your silence. Just sitting there watching your thoughts moving. As you watch, you become aware of a strange phenomenon: that the gaps between thoughts are becoming bigger and bigger. The thought process is no more so thick as it was before.

Just few days of sitting silently, doing nothing, no interference with thoughts, no judgment about them whether they are good or bad, just sitting by the side of a river -- as if -- and the river flows by. But the strange experience comes to you that the more you are watchful, less are the thoughts. As your watchfulness grows higher, your thoughts go on becoming lesser and lesser and lesser.

A moment comes when your thoughts are nil, and your awareness is full. It is exactly proportionate: 100

percent awareness means zero thoughts; 100 percent thoughts means zero awareness.

So either it is possible in your aloneness, or it is possible in your relationship. In relationship particularly, in moments when you are making love, meditation is very easy, because the very experience of 1/08/07

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making love brings you to a point where thoughts stop.

Q:* YOU ARE REFERRING TO THE ORGASM?

A:* Yes. When thoughts stop and you are simply there, experiencing the thrill. If you know that this moment can be transformed into meditation then this is the simplest way. Rather than sitting under a bo tree for six years, it can happen in your bedroom, there is no need to go in a forest. And far more easily, because you are following a natural course. Your biology will support you, your physiology will support you, your woman will support you. Everything will be supportive, just you have to be alert that when orgasm happens, don't get lost into it. Remain a witness. Remain a watcher.

So the whole thing is simple, but that is the difficult point. In relationship the difficult point comes because in orgasm you are feeling so pleasant, so blissed out, that you will tend to forget your awareness.

Q:* YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT GETTING ATTACHED TO THE EXPERIENCE?

A:* Yes. Getting lost into the experience, not attached. Attachment is a different thing. Getting lost, getting drowned in the experience. You should not get drowned in the experience. Your physiology is in it, your biology is in it, your chemistry is in it, but you are not. You are not just a watcher. So in your bedroom there are three persons, or even four.

Q:* ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THE ETERNAL PART OF THE ETERNAL BEING AS BEING THE

WITNESS?

A:* That is the witness.

Q:* COULD YOU EXPAND A BIT ON ATTACHMENT? GETTING ATTACHED. HOW ATTACHMENT

CAN ALSO PROVIDE A BLOCKAGE FOR AWAKENING.

A:* Just you become unconscious immediately. The whole thing is to be conscious, and the moment you become attached, you lose consciousness. The moment you become one with the experience, which will be a natural tendency. Millions of people know the experience of orgasm, but they all don't become enlightened for the simple reason because the natural tendency is when there is so much a blissful moment, who wants to be a witness? That will be missing the point in a way. You will be standing away, and when the experience is happening for which you have been hankering your whole life.... And it is a very small moment. It is not going to continue for hours so that you can stand also, you can get into and get out. There is not time. It is very momentary, very atomic.

Natural tendency is to be drowned in it. That's why many people come very close to enlightenment, but just miss by a single step.

Q:* WHEN YOU SAY GETTING LOST IN THE EXPERIENCE, IS THAT DIFFERENT THAN -- OR

MERGING INTO THE EXPERIENCE. IS THAT DIFFERENT THAN A ONENESS, BEING AT ONE WITH

ALL. ARE YOU DIFFERENTIATING BETWEEN THOSE TWO?

A:* They are different things.... Being one with all is a by-product of becoming a witness. It comes as a shadow to it; it does not precede it. Merging into an experience precedes it; and if you are merged into an experience then you are in the state of a drunkard. It may be love, it may be anything, but you are drunk.

You are not alert, aware. And when I say becoming one with the whole, that is not in your hands. That comes as a reward of being a witness.

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What you can do is to be a witness. There your doing ends. More than that, man cannot do.

Q:* SO AN ENLIGHTENED PERSON LIKE YOURSELF WOULD NEVER REACT TO ANYTHING? IF

I GOT ANGRY AND JUMPED UP AND DOWN HERE, OR SWORE AT YOU, YOU WOULD NOT

REACT? MIGHT YOU ACT, THOUGH, WOULD YOU?

A:* No. I will respond, I will not react.

Reaction is impossible. Reaction is always unconscious; and response is always conscious. For example, Jesus says if somebody hits on your one cheek, give him your other, too. Being a Christian, if I hit you on your one cheek, you may remember Jesus' statement and you may give me the other cheek. This is reaction.

You are not responding to the moment. Your mind is reminding you what has to be done, what is right to do. This is the moment when you can prove that you are really a Christian. All these things will not take much time -- just in a flash.

That will be reaction. Response is unpredictable.

Q:* IT'S NOT CONDITIONED?

A:* No, it is not conditioned. It is unpredictable because it is not Christian, it is not Hindu, it is not Buddhist. It is my individuality, so even I cannot say if you get angry what I will do.

Q:* DO YOU HAVE A MASTER/DISCIPLE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE PEOPLE HERE?

A:* No. They are all my friends.

Q:* WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE BETWEEN LOVE AND IDOLATRY? CAN YOU

DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN THESE TWO? THERE'S A LOT OF LOVE TOWARDS YOU, BUT IS THERE

A POINT WHERE LOVE CAN GO OVER TO SORT OF IDOL WORSHIP?

A:* That is love going wrong. Love moving into a wrong direction. Adoration is not love. You have put somebody on a high pedestal, and this is not an act of love. It has its consequences.

If you adore somebody and put somebody higher than you, you are bound to put somebody lower than you, and you would like to be adored by somebody. It is an organic phenomenon.

It happened, I was meeting one of the shankaracharyas, the Hindu pope; he was sitting on a high platform and just by his side on a smaller platform, another Hindu monk was sitting. He introduced me that,

"Do you see who is this man sitting by my side?" I said, "I don't know." He said, "He has been the chief justice of the supreme court of India; but he is so humble that he never sits on the same platform as I am sitting."

I said, "I can see that." He had a smaller platform, but I am sitting on the floor. And I told that chief justice of the supreme court that you should dig a hole in the earth here and sit there, because I am sitting here -- what kind of humbleness is this. And I told the shankaracharyas, that he is simply waiting. The moment you fall in your grave, he will jump on your platform and there is a third sannyasin sitting on the floor, he will jump on his platform. This is simple hierarchy.

And you call it humbleness? Neither you are humble, nor he is humble. You are fulfilling his ego by calling him the most humble person, and what is the need to remind me that he is a retired chief justice of the supreme court of India? What is the need? He is a sannyasin now; he has renounced the world, but he has not renounced the retirement. He has not forgotten yet that he was the chief justice of the supreme court.

And do you recognize the fact that your saying this is simply fulfilling your ego, too? That I don't have ordinary disciples. And calling him humble, you fill his ego; and he, refusing to sit on the same platform with you, fulfills your ego. This is a mutual conspiracy. You are enemies of each other. You are destroying each other without knowing what you are doing. You are poisoning.

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Adoration is dangerous. Anybody who adores somebody is the wake of it, would like to be adored by somebody else. Otherwise it is impossible for him to adore somebody. That would be only one pole. Where is the other pole? A polarity is needed. In love there is no hierarchy. Nobody is higher than you. You don't require anybody to be inferior to you. There is no question of equality, either. When there is nothing higher and nothing lower, the very question of equality becomes irrelevant. Everybody is himself.

Q:* SOME PEOPLE LOOK AT YOU AS A GURU, AND FEEL THAT THEY CAN SEE THEMSELVES

THROUGH YOU, THAT YOU CAN MIRROR THEMSELVES TO THEMSELVES.

A:* That is their fault.... Because I am nobody's guru.

Q:* YOU DON'T HAVE A CAPACITY TO MIRROR MYSELF BACK TO MYSELF?

A:* I have the capacity to mirror; but no mirror needs to be a guru.... In your bathroom, you have a mirror. Is that mirror your guru?... A mirror is just a mirror. There is no need to make a guru out of it. It is his nature; just because it is a mirror it reflects. There is no need to bow down and touch the feet of the mirror, and put the mirror on your head and move around the world that you have a guru because it mirrors you. There is no need.

Yes, I can mirror. Only you have to open your eyes; otherwise, what the mirror can do? You can stand before the mirror with closed eyes. The mirror will be still reflecting, but a man with closed eyes, the man will not know that he is being reflected. He will not know that there is a mirror. Mirror will be doing its function. It is nothing on the part, in fact, mirror is not doing anything. It is just the nature of the mirror.

If you are not there and a dog is standing there, he will be mirrored.

Q:* SOME OF YOUR QUOTES ARE IN THE PRESS. WHERE YOU SAY THERE IS NO GOD -- ARE

YOU SAYING THAT THERE IS NO GOD OUTSIDE OF CREATION, PER SE?

A:* Certainly I am saying that there is no creator. Creation itself is enough unto itself; it needs no outside agency to create it. The moment you accept an outside agency to create it, you fall into a vicious circle. Because the reasoning is that how can existence be there without being created by someone? That is the reasoning of all the religions. If you accept their reasoning then the question arises: Who created the God? And if God can be there without being crated then what is the problem? Then existence can be there without being crated, so why unnecessarily go from A to B, from B to C, and those are all hypothesis. God A creates god B, god B creates god C unnecessarily. The whole theology is simply nonsense. It begins with God, theo means God, and logy means logic about God. That is a contradiction in terms.

Q:* SO CREATION ITSELF IS GOD. WE'RE GOD, YOU'RE GOD, I'M GOD, EVERYBODY HERE IS

GOD ... THE WHOLE ... THE WHOLE GAME IS GOD.

A:* Yes, if you want to use word God.

Q:* OR SOURCE.

A:* There is no problem. There is no problem for (typewriter defect -- check tape) have to change the meaning. Because the donkey will be the god, even the yankee will be the god. Better drop that word because that word is dangerous. Then sometimes you are riding on a donkey, you are riding on a god.

Sometimes you are....

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Q:* I GUESS THE FORCE THAT GIVES US LIFE OR WHATEVER IT IS, ENERGY.

A:* I would like to call it pure consciousness. Just consciousness. Or if you are too attached to the word god, call it godliness, but don't make it a noun, make it a quality. Godliness is perfectly okay.

Q:* WHY DO YOU SAY MAKE IT A QUALITY RATHER THAN A NOUN?

A:* Because the moment you make it a noun you kill(?) it. The moment you make it a noun you stop its growth. Nouns don't grow, only verbs grow.

Q:* YOU HAVE SAID JESUS IS A MADMAN. YOU SEEM TO BE PUSHING ALL OTHER

RELIGIONS OUT OF THE WAY BECAUSE OF THIS ATTACHMENT -- BECAUSE IT'S KEEPING

PEOPLE OUT OF THE MOMENT?

A:* That is one of the reasons. There are thousands and one reasons more.... Jesus would be a crackpot even if he accepted that there is no God. That will not make much difference.... Because there have been people, like Gautam Buddha, who does not believe in God. Still he makes the same kind of statements as Jesus is making, and I will call those statements also mad. For example, the story also is just as it is in Jesus'

case, that he declares himself the only begotten son of God. Buddha cannot say that, because there is no God in his ideology, but he declares that, I am the supreme most awakened person. That is equivalent to God. Why you should be the supreme most? Past, present, future, Buddha is the supreme most enlightened person. Nobody can go higher than him. If I met him I'm going to kick him. He is a crackpot. This type of person, he does not believe in God, but he himself put in God's place. He's in fact worse than Jesus Christ.

At least Jesus Christ is only the begotten son of God. He does not claim himself to be the God.

Krishna claims himself to be God (in?). Now Krishna is a bigger.... All these people need psychiatry.

Q:* YOU ALSO SAY THAT JESUS WAS SUICIDAL?

A:* Yes, he was suicidal.... Jesus is in many ways trying to prove that he is the awaited messiah of the Jews, and that is the whole conflict between the Jews and Jesus. Jesus was never a Christian, you have to remember it. He was born a Jew, he lived as a Jew, he died as a Jew. He never heard the word Christian. It was only after three hundred years, when the bible was translated into Greek that messiah became Christ, and the followers of the christ became Christians. This is a three hundred later -- three hundred year later development.

Jesus was continuously emphasizing that he is the awaited Messiah. And not a single Rabbi was convinced of it. Those twelve fools that he convinced, who became his apostles, were all illiterate, poor people, fishermen, woodcutters, farmers who had no idea of what he is talking about. They were simply happy that they are the followers, the chosen few of the only begotten son of God. Something was wrong with their psychology too. They were becoming without any cause, special. And they were raising Jesus as high as possible because with Jesus they go on rising higher. The night Jesus was caught, you will be surprised that his disciples asked him, "Lord, now you will be gone, how long it will take for you to come back and take us?" He said, "Soon, I will be coming back on the glory with God's light and I will take you all. I am going to prepare places for you." They said, "One question more. Of course you will be on the right side of God. Who will be by your side amongst these twelve people? Who will be second to you?" They wanted to decide the hierarchy. This type of gathering cannot be sane. These people would be perfectly right if they were in politics.

Q:* BUT JESUS HIMSELF DIDN'T WRITE ANY OF THAT, HIS OWN THOUGHTS.... IT WAS

FILTERED THROUGH OTHER PEOPLE, THE DISCIPLES PARTICULARLY, I THINK THAT THAT HAS

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HAPPENED IN CHRISTIANITY, HASN'T IT, I MEAN THAT MISINTERPRETATION?

A:* Let me explain to you. It is not only about Christianity. Buddha has not written anything, Mahavira has not written anything, Krishna has not written anything. No founder of any religion has ever written anything. They have all spoken. So everything was written by others. But, as far as Jesus is concerned, it is more probable that he said it than Krishna, or Buddha or Mahavira. Because there are four gospels, in fact five. Five disciples writing almost exactly the same thing. Without any contradiction. It is enough proof that it has come from the same source, that the person has said something because it is reflected in all the five gospels almost in similar words.

Q:* THERE HAS ALSO BEEN A LOT OF TALK, BHAGWAN, THAT OVER THE TWO THOUSAND

YEARS, THAT THE BIBLE HAS BEEN CHANGED BY THE CHURCH ITSELF. THERE IS TALK ABOUT

REFERENCES OF REINCARNATION HAVING BEEN TAKEN OUT. I THINK FOUR HUNDRED, FIVE

HUNDRED....

A:* That is true. That is true. The church has changed. But fortunately one gospel has remained outside the church. That is the gospel of Thomas, on which I have spoken. I'm the only man in two thousand years which has spoken on something which has remained outside the church. Because church accepted these four gospels. Thomas was not here, Thomas was in India, so his gospel remained in South India. But that gospel exactly repeats the same what the four gospels say. Of course more accurately, more exactly and more significantly. Churches may have done something but they have not messed much because there is an independent source to be compared.

As far as Jesus is concerned, it is very difficult to defend him on this ground that these were perhaps not his words. These were certainly his words.

Q:* DO YOU FIND ANY REDEEMING FEATURES OF THE OTHER RELIGIONS; BUDDHISM, HINDUISM, CHRISTIANITY?

A:* Christianity, Judaism, Mohammedanism, these three religions have nothing to offer -- except stupidity. Buddhism, Taoism, Jainism, have much to offer. Hinduism is just in the middle of these two --

much nonsense, much sense, all mixed. What Buddhism Taoism, Jainism, has to offer in a sense is the method of meditation. Those are the three religions who are based on the method of meditation. All the three have no idea of God. All the three are completely free of this father figure, which is really a projection of child psychology -- you need a protector, you need somebody to create, you need.... Those three religions are more mature. But the contribution is the same. Their methods of meditation may be a little bit different.

I have tried all their methods, but they reach to the same conclusion. They are all existential, experiential, they are not theoretical, and they are not based on belief. They don't require you to believe anything. Their approach is very scientific. So those three religions have offered one thing, which is all that is needed. They have offered many more things which are rubbish. And it is very difficult for someone, unless he himself has meditated and experienced this space to find out of the whole garbage. For example, Buddhism has as many scriptures as thirty-three thousand scriptures, and each scripture has hundreds of commentaries on it, and then commentaries on commentaries. It is said that if all the literature on Buddhism, in India, in Tibet, in China, in Japan, in Korea, in Sri Lanka can be accumulated, then you can put all the books of the whole world on one side, still the books on Buddhism will be the weightier. Just in weight.

Q:* YOU CLAIM TO HAVE THE ONLY RELIGION THOUGH.

A:* I claim to have the first and the last religion. For the simple reason that except meditation I have nothing else. So I have found the very essential core. No garbage around it, nothing non-essential, just a simple methodology. And I have looked into all the methods of meditation -- there are one hundred and 1/08/07

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twelve methods. I have spoken on the one hundred and twelve methods of meditation, and out of one hundred and twelve methods that have been practised in the East by these three religions, I have chosen one essential point that is connecting all those one hundred and twelve methods. They differ only in small details, but their basic foundation is witnessing.

Q:* I'D LIKE TO MOVE ON TO YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH YOUR NEIGHBORS HERE IN

OREGON. YOU'RE QUOTED: "I ALWAYS LOVED THE AMERICAN CONSTITUTION AND NOW I THINK IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER IF I HAD NOT COME HERE AS I AM FEELING

ABSOLUTELY DISAPPOINTED. THAT CONSTITUTION IS BOGS, THE WORDS; FREEDOM, INDIVIDUALISM, CAPITALISM, FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION ARE ALL JUST WORDS." THAT WAS IN

THE EUGENE REGISTER GUIDE OF NOVEMBER 6TH '84. YOU SEEM TO HAVE THE PROTECTION

HERE THOUGH. YOU HAVE BEEN ABLE TO PUT THIS OASIS IN VERY ARID LAND. WHY WOULD

YOU SAY YOU ARE DISAPPOINTED IN THE CONSTITUTION?

A:* Because it is a question of degrees. I have respected American constitution more than anybody else in the whole world -- Americans included. Because I have respected the constitution as the only democratic constitution in the world, hence my disappointment. I would not have been disappointed in Soviet Union, because I had no respect for their dictatorship in the first place. If they had even killed me I would have accepted it as a matter of course. But I cannot accept any nonsense here in America because of my respect for the constitution, my respect for the word democracy, freedom, individuality, respect for the individual.

We have crated this oasis not because of American government, but in spite of American government. They are creating every king of hindrance. They are putting every kind of trouble and they are absolutely illegal.

What they are doing is unconstitutional. It is against their own constitution. That's why I say....

Q:* BUT THE CONSTITUTION IS REALLY THAT WHICH WILL EVENTUALLY PROTECT YOUR

RIGHTS. AND I KNOW THAT THE GOVERNMENT, WHICH IS PEOPLE, HAVE BEEN CAUSING YOU

PROBLEMS HERE.

A:* Wait a moment. I will protect the constitution.

Q:* YOU'RE DOING THAT?

A:* Not the constitution. Constitution is a dead thing. What constitution can do for me? I will do something for the constitution. I am going to fight for the constitution against the Americans who are prostituting it.

Q:* WHY DO YOU THINK THE NEIGHBORS AROUND HERE HAVE BEEN SO DISTURBED

ABOUT YOUR MOVING IN?

A:* Anywhere it would have been the same.... For the simple reason, man is an animal, has come from animals, has a territorial interrogative. It is their territory and we are strangers. And you will be surprised to know that even in India where I was born, I was a stranger. Because I did not believe in their traditions, I did not believe in their conventions. I did not support their religions. I did not support their values. I was a stranger in India too, and the Indian neighbors were as much against me as the Oregonians. So Oregonians are not doing anything special....

Q:* WHY ARE PEOPLE REACTING THIS WAY? WHY DO THEY FEEL THREATENED BY YOUR

PRESENCE HERE?

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A:* It is not a question of my presence. Why Jesus was crucified by Jews? Why Gandhi was assassinated by Hindus? Why many attempts on the life of Buddha were made? It is just a simple thing to understand, that's why I'm not angry about it. I accept it as part of man's animal nature. I am a constant threat to them. For example, my people are happy, joyous, dancing, enjoying. And those Oregonians around me look sad, bored -- as the whole world is sad and bored and everybody is feeling cheated by life. Nobody seems to find contentment. Nobody is able to rejoice life. And suddenly they see few strangers coming here and enjoying for no reason at all. Trying hard, twelve and fourteen hours a day working and changing the desert.

And in four years we have changed it. Now we are self-supportive, self-sufficient -- for our food, or vegetables, for our milk. And this is when everything is being done against us. We are fighting in every court. We must be having the biggest law firm in the world -- four hundred legal experts. Here four hundred sannyasins are working continually to fight in so many courts unnecessarily. In every case we are winning.

And they know finally we are going to win. But they can delay at least. They can harass at least, and this is human nature.

So I'm not angry about it, and I don't think that it is anything unexpected, but as far as America is concerned, my expectations were higher than about any other country. It is a new country, only about three hundred years old. It should be more fresh. It should be more capable of existing new ideas, new people.

But they are behaving just as idiotically as Indians.

India is an old country, almost dead. I was not disappointed with the Indians. They had made attempts on my life, and I was not disappointed even in that. But with America I have a certain love affair.

Q:* DO YOU SEE THE POSSIBILITY OF RECONCILING YOUR DIFFERENCES WITH THE

NEIGHBORS AROUND HERE?

A:* That depends on them. I never compromise on any point. Either I am right or I am wrong. If they can prove me wrong I am perfectly willing to be with them. Or I am ready to prove them wrong, then they have to be with me. I don't compromise on any point. Compromise is only for impotent people.

Q:* YOU ARE ALSO QUOTED SOMEWHERE, I HAVE IT HERE. YOU SAID THAT IF THEY WOULD

HATE US YOU COULD DEAL WITH HATE BECAUSE YOU COULD TRANSMUTE THAT INTO LOVE.

A:* Yes, that is true.

Q:* BUT YOU CAN'T STAND BEING IGNORED....

A:* That's right.

Q:* BUT YOU'VE HARDLY BEEN IGNORED BY THE PRESS, SINCE YOU BROKE SILENCE ON

JULY 20TH.

A:* They cannot ignore, and I will not allow them to ignore.

I mean by that, that whatsoever media is doing right now, is not according to my standards. Although my Commune is small, but it is a worldwide phenomenon. We have communes all over the world, even in East Germany. Even in Soviet Russia. Of course they are underground.

Q:* THEY'RE NOT WEARING RED AND ORANGE YOU SAY?

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A:* They cannot. Red has become my monopoly. I have taken it away from Communists.

Q:* SO YOU'RE DISAPPOINTED IN THE NEWS COVERAGE THAT YOU'VE BEEN GETTING?

A:* Yes, it is nothing. Much more is needed, and we will bring it.

Q:* SO YOU DON'T MIND WHETHER IT IS SENSATIONALIZED?

A:* That does not matter....

Q: AS LONG AS YOU ARE GETTING COVERAGE?

A: Anything will do. That we can manage.

Q:* YOU PREDICTED THE START OF THE APOCALYPSE, TEN TO FIFTEEN YEAR PERIOD OF

TRANSFORMATION HERE ON EARTH -- IT WAS SUPPOSED TO START IN '84. HAS THIS STARTED

AND WHAT ARE SOME OF THE CONCRETES YOU CAN POINT TO SAY THAT IT'S STARTED?

A:* Just creating gossips ... don't bother about these things.

That's my way of not being ignored. I can predict anything without any trouble.

Q:* WELL HAS IT HAPPENED? IN `83 YOU SAID IT WAS GOING TO START IN `84.

A:* It is not going to happen.

Q:* IT'S OVER. WE'RE IN THE NEW AGE?

A:* I don't take life seriously.

Q:* I'D LIKE TO TAKE A QUOTE FROM THE RAJNEESH TIMES OF AUGUST 16TH: "AIDS IS THE

ULTIMATE DEVELOPMENT OF HOMOSEXUALITY. IT HAS NO CURE. YOU HAVE GONE SO FAR

AWAY FROM NATURE THAT THERE IS NO WAY BACK. YOU HAVE BROKEN ALL THE BRIDGES

BEHIND YOU. THAT'S THE DISEASE AIDS." NOW THIS IS ATTRIBUTED TO YOU. COULD YOU

EXPAND ON THAT STATEMENT?

A:* That's exactly right.

Q:* JERRY FALWELL SAYS THAT THAT IS GOD'S REVENGE ON THE HOMOSEXUALS. NOW ARE

YOU SAYING THAT HOMOSEXUALITY HAS MOVED THAT FAR AWAY FROM NATURE, NOT GOD

BUT NATURE, THAT THAT IS NATURE COMING BACK AT THE HOMOSEXUAL COMMUNITY?

A:* God himself is a homosexual. First make it a point: the Christian trinity has not a single woman in it. It is a gay company. If anybody has to suffer from AIDS it is your God first.

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Q:* WELL HOW DOES THAT DIFFER?

A:* It is absolutely different, because he is trying again to create fear in people. He's not giving a factual analysis of the disease. Let me give you an example: There was an earthquake in Bihar in India. And Mahatma Gandhi said that the earthquake has happened because God has punished the sinners. I was very young. I wrote him a letter that it is very strange only in Bihar God should punish the sinners. What about the whole world? Do you consider Bihar only consists only of sinners, and the whole world consists of saints? And he has not guts neither a gentleman's attitude. He never returned any answer. I wrote a letter to his son: That whether you father -- because he was my friend -- I wrote to Ramdas, his son, that whether your father has received my letter or not? He said he has received, but he has no answer to give, so he is keeping quite.

These people are diverting things. Now bringing god into it. That God has punished homosexuals, then why God has not punished lesbians? -- you ask that fellow. Because no lesbian creates AIDS. In fact if women are intelligent, they should all become lesbians. That is the greatest safety for women, and then they will leave men to suffer from AIDS or whatsoever they want to do. And then we will see how God makes them punished. Because this is strange that homosexuals should suffer and lesbians be protected.

Q:* IF I COULD JUST SUMMARIZE YOUR RESPONSE.

A:* No. I will.... Exactly what I am saying is that AIDS is the ultimate outcome of a perversion. God has nothing to do with it....

Religion has nothing to exploit on its ground. It is a simple fact that has tremendous implications. One, that men and women, if not allowed freedom from marriage, then there is going to be perversion of many kinds, because monogamy is unnatural.

Q:* IT IS UNNATURAL FOR MEN?

A:* It is unnatural. No man is there who will not like to love many women. In fact, Soren Kirkegaard has a statement that, "I would like to make love to all the women of the earth. Still I don't think that I will be satisfied." And he is stating a very significant point. Religions have managed a certain kind of bondage between men and women. And they have created the idea of sin and guilt, so people cannot easily move from one relationship to another relationship.

In countries, for example, in the middle east, it is very difficult to make a contact with a woman -- even to see the face of a woman. And in the middle east homosexuality is very ancient. For the simple reason, because whenever a man wanted just to change his taste, women were not available. He had to look towards men or even towards animals. This is ugly.

If we make marriage dissolve -- for example, in my Commune marriage is just a game, like any other game. And every game has its rules so marriage has its rules. But no rules of any game are ultimate. We make them, we can change them....

In this Commune it is very easy to move from one woman to another, from one man to another, without creating any kind of scandal, without feeling any guilt, without creating any jealousy.

Q:* IN THE TRADITIONAL MARRIAGE, MONOGAMOUS MARRIAGE... YOU SAY THAT THAT

LUST IS WITHIN THE INDIVIDUAL FOR DIFFERENT PARTNERS, DIFFERENT EXPERIENCES. SO

THEN THE INDIVIDUAL IS TRYING TO CONTROL THESE DESIRES SO MUCH THEY MUST BE

DISSIPATING A LOT OF ENERGY. THAT WOULD HAPPEN?

A:* It is. It is. The more monogamous a country is the more people will be repressed. And their repressiveness will become violence, war, homosexuality, prostitution, sodomy. It will take all kinds of forms, which will be difficult because they have already moved away from nature. If we want that the world 1/08/07

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should not end into such an ugly disease, marriage has to be dissolved, every religion has to drop the idea of celibacy -- because all those celibates are bound to become homosexuals.

All your popes, all your bishops, all your cardinals, all your priests of any religion, all your monks --

Buddhist, Christian, Hindu -- does not matter, because you have put man and women separately. There are monasteries where no woman has entered in one thousand years. Then those monks -- man is intelligent, he will try to find out some way for his repressed energy. Now what can you do? Just by an idea of celibacy, your biology does not change. Neither your blood changes its ways, nor your food, nor your hormones.

Nothing changes by your idea of celibacy, your idea of celibacy is simply an idea. Your body knows nothing about it.

The body goes on creating semen. What you are going to do with that? How long you are going to repress it? And repressing it is a double wastage, because in repression you need much energy to repress your own energy. So you become a vicious circle. You cannot create anything so none of the monks of any religion have been creative of anything. They have not contributed anything to human civilization. They have been parasites, and they have created masturbation, homosexuality, lesbianism, sodomy....

Q:* THIS IS ALL THROUGH THE REPRESSION?

A:* It is all because of repression. Man's sexual energy should be allowed absolute freedom. It should be man's birthright.

Q:* ARE YOU TALKING MAN INCLUDING BOTH MEN AND WOMEN?

A:* Yes.

Q:* YOU PREDICTED THAT TWO-THIRDS OF THE WORLD'S POPULATION WOULD DIE BY

AIDS. DO YOU STILL STAND BY THAT?

A:* Perhaps more, because there is nobody bothering to do anything about it....

Not a single step in any country is being taken to prevent it. On the contrary, every government is trying to repress the information about AIDS. Every individual who suffers from AIDS is trying to repress the information about it leaking into the public, because he will be condemned. If in a monastery you find that people are suffering from AIDS, that whole monastery and the whole religion will be condemned. So every vested interest is trying to repress information.

The disease is already widespread, and the problem is that it is not only by sexual intercourse that you can get it. You can get it by kissing somebody, because saliva is a carrier. Now kissing should be prohibited, completely, absolutely, with no exception. Tears carry it. If you kiss a woman and a tear comes to your mouth you can get it. And my understanding is: if tears and saliva can carry it, then perhaps soon they will discover perspiration also -- any liquid coming out of the body.

For the first time such a dangerous disease, so contagious, and which has no cure -- because basically it is not an ordinary disease. It is more an existential disease. A man looses interest; in women, for any reason: religious, physical, medical, for any reason, legal, a man loses interest in women, becomes interested in men. Soon he gets fed up with that, because in man and woman there is a contrast, a polarity, a attraction.

Between man and man there is no polarity. It is just trying to create electricity with only positive poles, without negative pole.

Man and man making love simply means sexual energy will not be creative of life. Love making with a woman is healthy. In places where older people are not condemned for love making, people live longer. In countries like India, when even a person at the age of fifty starts feeling that, now, it is ugly, guilty, a sin, when your sons are married, to make love to your wife -- it is not right -- people die sooner.

In Caucasus Soviet Russia there are people who are one hundred seventy years old still making love.

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has been appreciated, enjoyed, loved. In Caucasus it is exactly like the Eskimos: if you are a guest, the wife will be offered to you. Just as we offer food and a good room to the guest, the wife is also offered to you. It is not in any way thought to be immoral. Caucasus people live longer than any other people in the world.

And they are poorest people with no medical facilities, with not enough food.

My feeling is that man can live at least three hundred years if his energy is not disturbed and perverted, and he starts fighting with himself. That is very destructive. AIDS is just your own energy fighting with your energy (doesn't make sense here) has come to a balanced state: like Soviet Union and Russia. The balance is such that except death nothing can disturb it.

Q:* I'D LIKE TO GET TO ANOTHER QUOTE: YOU SAY THAT THAT'S HOW WE ARE GOING TO

TAKE OVER THE WHOLE AMERICA. ARE YOU SAYING THAT YOU ARE GOING TO BE TAKING

OVER AMERICA IN THE SENSE OF CONTROLLING IT -- FOR EXAMPLE, THE GOVERNMENT, PHILOSOPHY OR JUST YOUR HAPPINESS?

A:* Just through our rejoicing, singing, dancing. We are gypsies and gypsies have their way of over conquering the world.

Q:* ARE YOU SENDING OUT A WARNING YOU MIGHT BE MOVING SOMEWHERE ELSE?

A:* Certainly, with my whole circus.... And tell Canada, it is not far away.

Q:* YOU JUST TOLD THEM. ARE YOU THE RINGMASTER OF THIS CIRCUS?

A:* Certainly.

Q:* WHEN YOU SAY: I HAVE THE ONLY RELIGION -- I'D LIKE TO GET BACK TO THAT. ARE

YOU SAYING: I, BHAGWAN, HAVE THE ONLY RELIGION. OR ARE WE OUR OWN MASTERS, EACH

OF US INDIVIDUALLY?

A:* No. Each individual here. When I say I, that is not my ego, that represents my whole people around the world. I am just their spokesman.

Q:* ARE YOU SAYING THAT IT'S WITHIN EACH INDIVIDUAL?

A:* No. When I say that this is the first and the last religion, the meaning is that all the religions up to now have not been scientific. They were all superstitious. They were based on a certain belief system. Belief was basic. Now nobody can believe without repressing doubt. Belief is only repressing doubt. If there is no doubt there is no need for repressing belief. You don't believe in the sun. You don't believe in science, you don't believe in light. You know they are there so no belief is needed. All religions up to now have remained beliefs. That's why they have been called faiths.

Science for the first time, three hundred years before, started a new movement which was based on doubt. Just absolutely against belief. Go on doubting till you find something which is indoubtable. That's my approach too. I am trying religion to have a scientific base.

Science inquires into objects, religion inquires into our own subjectivity. But the method need not be different. The same scientific observation, I call it witnessing: very alert, just go on inquiring within yourself, without any belief, without any prejudice. If you have courage enough to go without any prejudice, if you have courage enough to go without any belief system, soon you will stumble upon truth. It is there within you.

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I say this is the first religion, because this is the first scientific approach towards man's interiority. And I say that this is the last also because there is no other possibility. There are only two possibilities: either belief or doubt. Hence, I say this is the last because you cannot do anything else. Either you believe or you doubt. If you believe you will never know the truth. If you doubt, persistently, and go on doubting, you are bound to find it. And when doubt finds something, that is no more belief, that is no more faith. That is your experience. You can stand by it. You need not go Jesus or Buddha. You need not take support from bible or Koran. You are your own authority.

So when I say this is the first and the last religion, I am not saying about Tom, Dick and Harry. I am simply stating a fact: that no religion up to now has tried doubt as its basic method. This is the first religion.

And I am also calling it the last for the simple reason that there is nothing else that can be done. Only two things are possible and I have done the second thing. First all the other religion have done, and failed.

Q:* CLAIRVOYANCE, TO BE ABLE TO SEE INTO THE FUTURE -- IS THAT A REALITY?

A:* No.

Q:* WHAT ARE YOUR COMMENTS ABOUT PEOPLE THAT TRANSCHANNEL, WHAT THEY

CLAIM TO BE, SPIRIT ENTITIES?

A:* Just they are crazy, surrounded by idiots.

Q;* SO SOMEBODY LIKE EDGAR CAYCE, THE SLEEPING PROPHET.

A:* Just rubbish.

Q:* WHERE DOES IT COME FROM? IT WOULD APPEAR TO BE LEGITIMATE, SOMETHING

HAPPENS. IS IT ALL FROM THE MIND?

A:* It is all psychic. Just mind.

Q:* CAN YOU GIVE ME SOME COMMENTS ON SOME PEOPLE HERE: RONALD REAGAN, THE

PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

A:* Just a third-rate cowboy, film actor.

Q:* ARE YOU AWARE OF THE PRIME MINISTER OF CANADA, BRIAN MULRONEY?

A:* No. I have never heard about that fellow.

Q:* YOU HAVEN'T?

A:* He's fortunate.

Q:* WHAT'S A TYPICAL DAY LIKE FOR YOU?

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A:* My daily life is just a constant bliss. Everything is blissful: eating, sleeping, talking, just sitting silently doing nothing. Everything to me is meditation. Sitting under my shower it is meditation, eating my food, it is meditation. Because I am always the witness. Even in sleep I am a witness. I know that I am sleeping. So it is, in a way, the same witness, but enjoying different things, different scenes. And because I never think of the past or of the future, nothing bores me because I -- you can go on giving me the same food every day and I will enjoy it the same way every day. My sannyasins who work in my kitchens, they get bored.

Q:* ARE YOU VEGETARIAN?

A:* Yes, I am vegetarian.

Q:* IS DIET IMPORTANT TO AWAKEN?

A:* No. It is not important, but once you are awakened, it is difficult to destroy life for your food. So before enlightenment it is not important, but after enlightenment it is immensely important.

Q:* WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON THE DRUG PROBLEM IN THE NORTH AMERICA SOCIETY -- COCAINE USAGE, MARIJUANA?

A:* In fact, all the governments should help the scientists to find better drugs with lesser side effects, rather than repressing drugs. It is stupid. Whenever you start stopping something you give great importance to it, and particularly to the youth. It becomes a provocation. The government is responsible for all young people who are being destroyed by drugs. There is no need.

In my birthplace, just in front of me, my house, there was a beautiful temple. I persuaded the priest of the temple that because of the big wall around the campus, people used that wall as urinated place, and it was in such a space where you can sit down. Nobody will be seeing you. So you write down on the wall in big letters that pissing here is absolutely prohibited. He, of course, was convinced. Before that nobody had pissed. After that you could count lines of people. The priest was very angry. He came to my father and said, "Your boy is dangerous. I have never seen people queueing, and when I ask them they said, `Just because you have written it, immediately the idea arises.'"

Any prohibition is dangerous. But the Christian God started the whole stupid thing by prohibiting Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of knowledge and the tree of life. Now in the Garden of Eden there must have been millions of trees. If God has not prohibited about those two trees, I don't think even now we would have found it. It was impossible. But prohibiting it, and then dumping the whole thing on the poor snake, the serpent -- God had done it already. He provoked.

All these governments should make an effort that better drugs are available, which give you more euphoria, more joy, and no side effects. Now science is capable of doing it.

Q:* BUT YOU DON'T ALLOW DRUGS HERE ON RAJNEESHPURAM.

A:* No.

Q:* BUT YOU ARE SAYING OUTSIDE OF RAJNEESHPURAM, IT'S OKAY?

A:* No. I am saying these drugs are not okay. And the reason is because governments are prohibiting.

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available without prescription, through medical stores, through hospitals. In fact, every hospital should have a room. Anybody who wants a drug experience, under medical care, he should be given it, because it is worth having. And i think that is the only way to take away that whole charm away from drugs.

In India they have tried many times to prohibit alcohol. And each time they prohibit it, many more people start drinking. And they drink wrong kind of alcohol, because it is made by people themselves. All kinds of poisonous accidents happen. Thousands of people die. Because they have drunk something they knew nothing about. Again and again the same stupidity. Then they withdraw the prohibition and the percentage of people drinking alcohol falls immediately. In fact, the way you have made the society, people are so miserable that they need something to forget what is happening to their life, what their wife is doing to them, what their boss is doing to them, what their husband is doing to them, what their children are doing to them. They need, those poor people need something, at least to have a few hours of relaxation.

My people do not need. That's why I don't allow here. We have better methods. Our meditations are nothing but drugs -- perfect drugs, without any chemicals in them. A man who can meditate will not be able to enjoy the drug, any drug. Because, his meditation gives him so much peace and the drug will disturb it.

Drug never gives you anything. If you are too much disturbed, then the drug relaxes you. But if you are at the peak of your bliss, drug will relax you down. So people who live in the valleys need drugs. People who live on the peaks don't need. Our people don't need.

It is not because of any government law that we are prohibiting people not to bring drugs in. It is because of our own people. They don't need it. In fact it is destructive of their meditation, their love, their joy. The drug makes them dull, stupid -- takes away the sharpness of their intelligence. But what I am saying about the outside world is that governments should emphasize the fact that it is a tremendous problem.

Sending young people to imprisonment does not help. You simply destroy those young people. You destroy their education. And I have not seen a single person who has been imprisoned, has been changed.

He comes out, and again back to the drugs. Now he comes out more professional than he had gone in the prison. Because there are experts already inside the prison who know more about drugs. He was just an amateur. From all those people he gets ideas of other drugs that you will get in Kabul, Manali, in Katmandu, in Goa. Where you will get the real thing. There is no need for all this nonsense. Courts are involved, jails are involved, young people are destroyed. It is the duty of every government to provide people with some kind of relaxation, some kind of peace, some kind of silence. If you cannot provide meditation, at least you can provide medicine. To me drugs should be medicine. And if we want, we can change all bad effects. It can become a healthy thing. Each Sunday morning, rather than go to the church, you just go on a trip.

Q:* THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

The Last Testament, Vol 2

Chapter #3

Chapter title: None

23 August 1985 pm in Jesus Grove

Archive code: 8508235

ShortTitle: LAST203

Audio:

Yes

Video:

Yes

Length: 127 mins

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[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

INTERVIEW WITH TED VIRAMONT, MADRAS PIONEER, MADRAS, OREGON

QUESTION:* WHAT IS AN AVERAGE DAY FOR BHAGWAN SHREE RAJNEESH CONSIST OF?

A:* Only of blissfulness. The same.

Q:* DO YOU HAVE LEISURELY PURSUITS AT ALL?

A:* Nothing.

Q:* DO YOU BELIEVE IN FIGHTING INJUSTICE?

A:* I don't believe in anything.

Q:* DO YOU THINK THAT ONE SHOULD FIGHT JUSTICE, INJUSTICE?

A:* One should not have shoulds and should nots.

One should simply exist spontaneously. If the moment brings fight, fight -- and fight totally, intensely.

But don't fight for a belief. Don't fight for a prejudice. Live in the moment. Be alert. And out of that alertness, whatsoever happens, enjoy it.

So let me explain it exactly because that may help you to understand other questions and answers.

I don't have any belief system. I don't have any creed, dogma. My whole approach is existential.

Right now, you are there, I am here -- and this is enough. You may have prepared your questions. I have not prepared my answers. So you can ask your questions, and I am a crazy man, I may say anything that comes in the moment. I don't care for any consistency, and I don't care for any respectability. My whole responsibility is to this moment. Beyond that there is nothing.

Q:* HOW'S THIS MOMENT GOING FOR YOU?

A:* Beautifully. Your moustache giving me great joy! Only you are missing a beard. It is half-hearted.

Just go the full way.

Q:* WELL, I'VE BEEN THINKING ABOUT GROWING ONE.

A:* You do it! A man without a beard and moustache is just like a woman with a moustache and beard!

Q:* ABOUT A YEAR AND A HALF AGO, I HAD A REALLY DARK TIME IN MY LIFE AND

SOMEBODY SUGGESTED TO GET INTO MEDITATION, AND I BOUGHT YOUR ORANGE BOOK ON

MEDITATION. AND THE ONE THAT CHANGED WHAT WAS HAPPENING FOR ME WAS THE

LAUGHTER MEDITATION. AS SOON AS I KNEW I WAS AWAKE, AND I STARTED LAUGHING, THE

WHOLE DAY WENT COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THAN BEFORE. SO I NEED TO THANK YOU FOR

SHOWING ME THIS MEDITATION.

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A:* Just one meditation has done that much for you. If you try few others, you will not find words to thank me.

I have 112 methods of meditation. And if a person can manage even 10 out of those, his life will be a sheer joy with no dark moments, with no frustration, with no tension, no anxiety. Whatsoever happens, he will be able to accept it, without any grudge, without any complaint. His gratitude towards existence will be infinite.

We are very ungrateful to existence. It has given so much to us, and without our asking. And we are such ungrateful creatures, that we don't even bother to look around what existence is continuously doing for us -- the sun, the moon, the stars, the trees, the birds, the animals, the people. You are living in a tremendously beautiful dream, but you have to be awake about it. Then only a gratefulness arises.

I call that gratefulness, true religion. A man need not be a Christian to be religious, need not be a Hindu to be religious. All that he needs is a deep gratitude towards existence -- he need not believe in God, he need not believe in heaven and hell -- just a simple phenomenon: a deep felt gratitude that this existence would have been missing something without you. That this vast existence needed you, no one else. And your place was empty before you, will be empty after you -- it is irreplaceable. That gives a great contentment.

Man's greatest need is to be needed. And when you feel that the whole existence needs you.... Otherwise you would not have been here!

Q: SOMEBODY TOLD ME THAT THE ONLY DEVILS RUNNING AROUND ARE THE ONES THAT

ARE IN OUR OWN HEARTS. DO YOU THINK THAT THAT'S TRUE?

A:* There are no devils. With the God, all devils disappeared. They were shadows of your God. Without God the devil cannot exist.

You will be surprised to know that the word devil and the word divine have the same root. They come from the same root. It is a Sanskrit root. In Sanskrit divine is called deva. From deva comes the English word divine and the devil. In fact the devil and God are two sides of the same coin. There is neither God nor devil.

you are there -- either asleep or awake. If you are asleep then life is misery, suffering, anguish, meaninglessness. If you are awake all dis-ease disappears. For the first time you find yourself surrounded by tremendous beauty, bliss, silence, serenity.

And to experience this, all that is needed is very simple. One should put his prejudices aside. One should not be a Christian; otherwise he cannot come to this moment of luminosity. One should put one's communism aside, just for the moment. I am not saying put it aside forever. I am saying just for the moment put it aside. Because I know once you have put it aside for a single moment, you have put it aside forever.

Q:* WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

A:* Because the experience will transform you so totally, you need not go to the church. The whole existence becomes your church. You need not read the Bible. The songs of the birds, the fragrance of the flowers, the sound of the running water will give you all the gospels that you need. And they will be living.

They will not be dead words printed in a book. They will be alive, as alive as you are. And if your heart starts dancing with the living that surrounds you, what is the need to be a Christian, what is the need to be a Mohammedan?

These are for people who are asleep and have never tasted anything of life. These are toys given to children to play with, to remain engaged, to remain busy. Your religions are not for mature people. They are childish.

Q:* DOES SOCIETY HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO ITS DISADVANTAGED PEOPLE?

A:* No. None. Society has destroyed people in the first place and then starts talking about responsibility. Each child is being destroyed by the society, distracted from his nature, distracted from what 1/08/07

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he was going to be, what existence has meant him to be.

First the society distracts him, disturbs him, and when he is disturbed, then these great public servants start coming and saying that the society has responsibility. This is a very cunning game.

First make a man sick and then run to fulfill your responsibility, service, duty, humanity, compassion, and bring medicine. But why hit the person in the first place?

All children are born so innocent that if you can just leave them alone to be themselves.... If you love them, and love is not a responsibility.... I am reminded of an small anecdote. One Hindu monk was traveling towards the highest Hindu sacred place, Badri* Khedar*, in Himalayas. It is a long journey, tedious. And just in front of him, a small girl, not more than twelve or thirteen years old, was carrying a boy, fat and heavy. The sannyasin was too much tired and just when he was passing the girl, he said to the girl, "My daughter, you must be tired. You are carrying so much weight." The girl was very much angry. She said,

"Weight? You are carrying weight. This is my brother."

Love is not a responsibility. Love is not a duty. Love is your joy. So out of your love do whatever you can do, but not out of your Christianity, not out of your ideology, not out of a sense of responsibility.

Otherwise you will never be able to forgive your son, and neither your son will be able to forgive you ever.

Duty is a four-letter dirty word. Never do anything for the sake of duty, because you are doing it reluctantly.

And whomsoever you are doing, you are humiliating.

Children are there just like flowers. What responsibility you have towards the roses? Yes, to give water, some manure, but that is not responsibility. That is your joy, because your roses will be bigger and more fragrant. What you are doing is nothing in comparison to what you are going to get. You are not doing any compassion on the rosebush. In fact the rosebush is being compassionate towards you.

What you have done? -- just put a little water, manure, taken care. And the rosebush comes with all its thankfulness, with all its flowers, and your whole house becomes fragrant. Suddenly you are no more in an ordinary house; you are in a palace, you are in paradise.

And the same happens with children. They are also flowers. Nourish them, but that is not your responsibility, that is your love. If there is no love, please don't do anything. Otherwise you are going to destroy the child. Love is the only safety. The child is too fragile. Handle it with care. Responsibility is too big a word and too heavy.

Duty is just ugly. Why not rejoice in nourishing the child? Why not enjoy in making him an individual?

But you are trying to make him a Christian. You are dragging him to the church. You are forcing him to believe in a God. You are creating fear in him. If you don't believe, you will go to hell. You are creating greed in him. If you follow the church line, you will be rewarded thousandfold in heaven after death. You will destroy his whole life, and you will feel great that you have done your responsibility.

This is not responsibility; this is simply irresponsibility. A response should come only out of your loving heart. If you love the child, then you would like the child to find his own truth. You would not like him to live on a borrowed truth. your child and living on a borrowed truth. What are you doing? -- making him a beggar? You will not like your child to be obedient against his reason, against his will. You will teach the child that obedience is not a virtue. Neither disobedience is a virtue. You have to choose.

We can offer you whatever our understanding is, which is not perfect, which is not infallible. We can place everything that we have experienced in life, and it is up to you to choose or not to choose. You have to be yourself, not just my son.

He has come through you, but he does not belong to you. You have been a passage, but if roads start claiming people who walk on the roads, just think how much more difficult life will become. Once you travel on a road, the road said, "Stop! Now where are you going?"

And what are parents except roads?

Q:* LAST YEAR'S PROGRAM FOR THE HOMELESS, WAS THAT YOUR IDEA?

A:* I don't have any idea.

Q:* WERE YOU HAPPY WITH THE RESULTS?

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A:* Perfectly happy with any kind of results, so it does not matter.

Q:* WHAT WERE YOUR FIRST IMPRESSIONS WHEN YOU ARRIVE HERE AT RAJNEESHPURAM?

A:* I love every challenge, and that was my first response. Seeing this desert.... I had not come to stay here, but this desert won't let me go.

I have to make it in an oasis. And in four years we have done much. For fifty years the land was lying there for sale. And it is not a small piece of land -- 126 square miles. And the Oregonians have not done anything for this poor land.

My first reaction was that I have to be here now....

I had not come with the intention or in America or in Oregon, but seeing the desert I decided that this desert has to be changed into a lush, green garden.

Q:* ARE WE TALKING FIGURATIVELY OR...?

A:* No, I am talking literally. I don't talk figuratively ever. We are going to change it. We have changed it. Now there are houses for five thousand sannyasins, all centrally air-conditioned. We have our own crops.

We are self-sufficient. We have our own vegetables. These grapes are ours; you should taste them. And soon we will be making wine and everything. So go on coming.

Q:* WHAT ARE YOUR IMPRESSIONS OF THE CITY NOW? YOU WERE HERE AND YOU HAD TO

MAKE THE ADJUSTMENT WITH THE DESERT. WHAT'S YOUR IMPRESSION?

A:* I enjoyed it. I am enjoying it.

I always enjoy anything which is creative. To paint on a canvas is a small thing, but to change the desert into an oasis is real creativity. And our people are enjoying. They are working twelve hours, fourteen hours every day. Even God tired in six days, and on the seventh day He had to rest, and since then nothing has been heard about the fellow.

That's great (unintelligible). Our people don't have any holiday, because our work is our pleasure. Our work is our worship. And even working twelve, fourteen hours a day, they have enough energy to laugh, to dance, to sing, to love. We are enjoying it immensely. It is really groovy.

Q:* YOU TOLD SOME REPORTER TO TELL THE AUSTRALIANS YOU WERE COMING DOWN

THERE. SO DO YOU HAVE ANY PLANS IN THE IMMEDIATE FUTURE TO GO...?

A:* No, not at all.

Yes, I go on creating gossips.

Q:* HOW'S YOUR HEALTH?

A:* Health ... mm, very good.... Because my sickness is such that it just needs to be taken care of. It is not sickness. For example I have allergies. For four years here I have not suffered a single attack of asthma, breathing trouble, because the climate is dry. Humidity is difficult for me.

And my people love me so much that they will not wear any perfume. They will not come close to me when they have been working for twelve hours and perspiring, because any smell can disturb me. So this small oasis is taking every care. My sickness is not something which needs any medicine. My problem is born with me. Nothing can be done about it. You can only take precautions.

It was difficult to take precautions in the ordinary world. Now how can I prevent a neighbor not to use *

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perfume, not to burn incense, and particularly in India.... Every house has a god. Every house is burning incense, and they were giving me asthma attacks. I had to find a place where at least for twenty miles there is no neighbor.

Jesus said*, "Love your enemies" and later on he adds, "Love your neighbors too" which is more difficult.

I don't have any neighbors; this is almost an island. And my people are aware of my difficulties, so they take care. That's why I am perfectly healthy. Otherwise I can be immediately sick. That is not a question of time. Just you open a bottle of French perfume here, and I will be sick. And I will not be able to sleep the whole night. My breathing gets so disturbed.

So that was one of the reasons I had told Sheela to look some place big enough that we are far away from neighbors. Because I don't want to interfere in their life. And if they enjoy perfume then who am I to prevent them from enjoying it? And she has found the perfect place for me.

Q:* WHAT HAPPENS TO RAJNEESH AND RAJNEESHPURAM WHEN YOU DIE? IT CONTINUES

ON AS IT IS?

A:* I cannot say anything, simply because I hate to dominate people. Even now what is happening is none of my concern. I am just a guest. It is their place. I am not even a sannyasin -- you can see. You are a little sannyasin ... almost half. I am not a sannyasin at all. They love me, so they tolerate me.

Q:* YOU MUST ADMIT THAT YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE RELIGION OF

RAJNEESHISM?

A:* Nothing.

Q:* NOTHING?

A:* Nothing. I enjoy talking. And out of those talks if somebody creates any ism, that is their business.

Q:* NOW YOU NOW ADVOCATE NONVIOLENCE....

A:* No. I don't advocate. I simply share my experiences of life. And it is up to my people to decide for themselves. I am not going to decide for anybody. They cannot dump any responsibility on me....

And this thing that Christians used violence, they killed people, they burnt people, they did everything seems to be going against Jesus Christ. It is not so.

Because Jesus himself in his behavior is very violent. He talks about love; he talks, but he behaved just the opposite. He threw away the money changers from the temple with a whip in his hand. Is that nonviolence?

He cursed a fig tree because he and his followers were hungry and the tree did not welcome them with fruits. And it was not the season for figs to appear on the tree. Now he is not only violent, he is idiotically violent, cursing a poor tree which has nothing to do.... When the season comes, the figs come. This man you think is nonviolent?

Q:* I'D BEEN LED TO BELIEVE THAT FOR A WHILE.

A:* Yes. Every Christian has been led to believe that.

Christ himself was not a Christian. He was a Jew. He never heard the word Christ or Christian, because in Hebrew these words are not there. He was known as the messiah, which is equivalent to the Greek Christ.

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His whole life -- and it was not a long life, only thirty-three years -- is full of incidences in which he proves himself arrogant, aggressive, violent, egoistic. And if his followers turn out to be the same on a larger scale, he is responsible for all that. No sane person can say, "I am the only begotten son of God."

Just think, anybody in Madras declaring, "I am the only begotten son of God" -- what you will think?

That this man should be informed to the police, should be sent to a mental institute. He is a crackpot. And that's what Jews thought of Jesus. In fact they never crucified a messiah; they crucified only a crackpot.

And Christians have proved perfectly well that Jews were right to crucify this man, retroactively. The two thousand years of Christianity give evidence that that man was worth crucifixion. Jews were right: that man was dangerous. He was himself insane and he was creating insanity in other people.

In fact they delayed. He should have been crucified three years before. Because he started teaching only when he was thirty. If I would have been there, I would have suggested crucify him right now. Don't wait.

In three years he will be able to collect few fools, few idiots, which are everywhere. And then it will become difficult. And then crucifying it will be wrong, because crucifixion will become the beginning of a new religion.

So whatever Christians have done, they have followed Jesus Christ step by step. And until Christianity disappears from the world it is very difficult to live peacefully. It is Christianity which has been making every effort to prevent science from progressing.

Science would have been in these three hundred years developed immensely, but the Christians on every step from Copernicus to Galileo to Columbus.... The America is discovered against the Christians, against the pope, and still I am amazed when the pope comes you welcome him.

Q:* YOU WERE IN INDIA AT THE TIME THAT INDIA GAINED HER INDEPENDENCE FROM

BRITAIN. YOU WERE TEN, BETWEEN TEN AND TWENTY AT THAT TIME; IS THAT CORRECT?

WHAT KIND OF AN AFFECT DID THAT HAVE ON YOU AFTER WHAT WAS GOING ON BEFORE...

LIVING UNDER THE BRITISH RULE, AND THEN NOT TO HAVE THEM ANYMORE. IT MUST HAVE

BEEN RATHER TRAUMATIC FOR MOST INDIANS. WAS IT?

A:* I am a little eccentric. I was more pro-British than pro-Indian. Because everything that has happened in India -- technology, science, education, colleges, universities, railway lines, roads, cars, airplanes -- everything has happened because of the British rule. If there was no British rule, India would have been the same as Ethiopia.

Before the British rule, for thousands of years they were burning women alive if their husbands died.

Husbands were never burned when their wives died. I don't see ... a simple arithmetic that this is a male chauvinist society. The husband is trying to control even after his death. The wife was forced in such a ugly way that if you visualize the whole scene you could not believe it. And these are the Hindus who talk about great spirituality.

It is obvious that to push a living person into a funeral pyre, the person is bound to escape. So what they used to do: first, they will make the funeral pyre, put the dead body of the husband, then put the living body of the wife and tie her with the woods, put many more logs on top of her, and then pour as much purified butter, so when fire comes up there is great smoke. You cannot see what is happening there. Surrounding one hundred priests will be chanting mantras.

In the second circle musicians will be playing drums and all kinds of noise, so nobody hears the screams of a living woman dying and burning there. And this was all religious ritual.

For thousands of years they have done that. The whole credit goes to British empire that they prevented it. They made it criminal. It was criminal.

For thousands of years India has been poor. It is said in Hindu scriptures that people never used locks on their houses. Even if they were going for few months' pilgrimage they will not use locks, because there was no fear of anybody stealing. This is absolutely wrong.

My understanding is that they had nothing to be stolen, first. Second locks were not yet invented.

Indians are so lousy. They will not try to do anything. They would like rather to starve, but they will not make any effort how you can be rich. The country is tremendously capable of being rich, but the people's mind are not able to use the opportunity.

These poor people, before Britain came into India's history, were giving birth to ten children -- only one will survive and nine will die. There was no medicine, no medical care. Now it is just the opposite because 1/08/07

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of Britain, that out of ten children only one dies, nine live. And that one also dies because of Indian stupidity.

Because Mahatma Gandhi was against vaccination. He was against allopathy. He was against everything that has been invented after the spinning wheel. And nobody knows when the spinning wheel was invented, perhaps ten thousand years. After that everything is evil.

It seems God made the spinning wheel on the sixth day and after that anything: railway trains, telegraph, post offices -- he was against all these things -- telephones, radios, televisions, he will not agree. You will be surprised. I was a guest in his son's house, who was my friend, and there were* so many mosquitoes in his ashram, and there were bound to be, because he was keeping many cows there, which are worshipped like mothers, and so much cow dung everywhere. I have never seen a dirtier place in my life, but it was all in the name of spirituality.

In the day somehow I managed, but in the night I told the friend, that "I will have to go to the nearby station, which was nine miles from there, and I will sleep there. Because how you can sleep with so many mosquitoes?" He said, "No, we sleep." I said, "I don't see any mosquito net." He said, "My father will never allow the luxury of sleeping in a mosquito net." So* I said, "What substitute he has given?" And he had given a substitute: kerosene oil. You paint your face, your hands, your legs, anything that is open with kerosene oil and go to sleep.

Now even the mosquitoes are intelligent enough not to come near to you. But how you can sleep, with kerosene oil? And I said, "I suffer from allergies; I cannot even try it. And this is my first and last visit to you. Any time you want to come you can come to me; I'm not going to come her. This is sheer stupidity."

Britain introduced much sanity. I am against slavery. I am against Britain dominating India, but I am not a fanatic in any way. I condemn Britain for whatsoever wrong they have done, but they have done so many beautiful things, I have to appreciate them.

So when India became independent in 1947 my whole family was involved in the freedom movement.

Almost every member of the family had gone to jail, has suffered. But I was absolutely against, against my family, my father, my uncles. And I told them, that "What you are doing you don't know. Britain has maintained peace for the first time in the whole history of India. Before Britain there was continuous civil war. In Gautam Buddha's time India was divided in two thousands* independent kingdoms. India had*

never been one country before Britain. It was Britain's contribution that India became one."

And as Britain was leaving India starting falling apart. Pakistan became separate. Bangladesh became separate. Now the Sikhs want their own country separate. Soon the Bengalis, the Assamese.... They have always been separate; it was under the British force that they remained one.

I used to tell my father, that "You don't understand the enormity of what can happen if Britain simply leaves the country. There will be violence and millions of people will be killed." And that's what happened.

My father wept before me, and he said, "You were right. We were thinking that you are always arguing against anything; any unpopular thing and you are for it. And this was so much*: that you were protecting and arguing for the British government." * I said, "Now you look. Britain has left; the country is divided.

Trains are burning, houses are burning, children are being mutilated, women are being raped. This is your independence. This is for what you had gone to jail and suffered."

And after Britain left, in these forty years India's situation has been becoming worse and worse. The population goes on growing. Birth control, the pill, abortion, all are against the religions, against spirituality.

When Britain left India, the whole India -- including Pakistan, Bangladesh -- was only four hundred million. Now, India -- without Pakistan, without Bangladesh -- is eight hundred million. It has doubled in forty years' time. Its soil is completely prostituted.

Q:* IS THERE ANYTHING THAT CAN BE DONE TO SAVE INDIA, DO YOU THINK?

A:* I don't think that anything can be done. Perhaps it is time for India to die. And there is a time to born, there is a time to live, and there is a time to die. It is impossible, because thirty years I have been trying just that hopeless job in India: touring all around the country continuously, telling people what you are doing is going to destroy you. And my reward? They will be throwing shoes at me. They will be throwing stones at me. They poisoned my food twice, and before I left they made their last attempt on my life by throwing a knife.

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Ten thousand sannyasins were present when they threw the knife at me. And the police somehow got from their agents, so twenty police officers were present there before the knife was thrown at me. It seems almost impossible that ten thousand witnesses -- perhaps you can say they are all sannyasins, maybe lying; but your twenty police officers, high-ranking, they are witnesses -- still the man was released from the court with respect. He has not done anything. The knife has never been thrown. And the knife was presented there by the police itself. It was lying down on the table of the magistrate. And the magistrate informed me from a friend, that "Forgive me, I know, but I am a man with a family, so many children. My promotion is due. I am being pressurized by the politicians and by the religious leaders that, Ìf that man is not freed completely, then you will be in trouble.' And I don't want to be in trouble."

Now that man belonged to a fanatic Hindu organization. That organization, sooner or later, is going to overrule India, because Hindus are the majority. And every stupidity that was there three hundred years before will be brought back, because that is Hindu tradition, Hindu religion. Suttee tradition -- burning the widow -- will be back!

Britain introduced divorce. Its days are finished. The moment India is controlled by Hindus, and it is not far away, divorce cannot remain legal. In Hindu religion there is no place for divorce. Marriage is forever.

They are interested in strange things. For example, cow slaughter should be stopped. Not that abortion should be legalized; no, that is not the problem at all. That birth control should be promulgated, helped in every possible way; no, that is not the problem. The problem is cows should not be killed.

Such a country, which cannot even see the priority of things.... I am not saying that kill the cows, but I am saying first save humanity. Otherwise who is going to save the cows? They will be killed by themselves.

My feeling is Britain has done two things wrong: in the first place it imposed slavery on the country; in the second place, like cowards it escaped from its responsibility. Britain should have remained there till he had educated people not to be violent, not to be superstitious, not to be against each other -- Hindus against Mohammedans, Mohammedans against Buddhists, Buddhists against Jainas, and there are so many sects and subsects, and everybody is against everybody else. And the country is spiritual, and nonviolence is its ideology. This is all nonsense; this is just hypocrisy.

Britain has done a very lousy job. I was certainly angry with Lord Mountbatten. He was the wrong person to send to India to make India free. He had no experience of politics. In fact he was just a playboy, his whole life. And just to keep him away from England -- because he belonged to the royalty, and if a person belonging to the royalty is a playboy, then everybody's wife is in danger, and everybody is in danger

-- so they kept him continuously out, sending him out. But you cannot send him out just like that -- he was a royal person, he could have been the king. Just it was a chance that he was not the eldest son.

First they sent him to Burma. As he came back from Burma, immediately he was told, "Pack your luggage and go to India, and you have to do a great work: make India independent."

Just think, the sheer immensity of the work. When you make a country slave for hundreds of years you have to fight, and within a day you can make it independent. I don't see the logic. Even when I was only seventeen, I could not see the logic of it. I had written a letter to Lord Mountbatten that this is not the right time for this country to be independent. If everything is peaceful, it is simply cold war. Once the pressure of British control is gone then....

Q:* DID THE INDEPENDENCE OF INDIA HAVE ANY BEARING ON YOUR OUTLOOK IN LIFE?

A:* No, because I am not interested in nations. I am interested in one world. Because my understanding is that unless the world is one, we cannot stop wars. We cannot stop politicians cheating people. There is no way for humanity, except to commit suicide in a third world war.

Q:* IT'S A BIG JOB TO TRY TO BRING THE WORLD TOGETHER IN ONE?

A:* It is a big job, but nuclear weapons have made it easy. On both the sides, in America and Soviet Union, now they have piled up so much nuclear weapons that they can destroy the earth seven hundred times. Now neither America wants to get into a nuclear war nor Soviet Russia wants, but nobody can say it.

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are piling up? You have seven hundred times more than is needed to destroy this poor humanity and life on this small planet.

Because of the nuclear weapons third world war has become almost an impossibility. They will go on talking about it, because that keeps them in power. People are afraid. People don't know the whole information, what is going on. The Americans are afraid of Russians. Russians are absolutely in darkness, and they think Americans are monsters or something. The Soviet clique that rules can rule only if it can maintain the idea that the third war is just on the horizon.

I have a certain respect for Richard Nixon for one thing: that if the man wanted not to get out of the White House, he should have simply started the third world war. That was the simple way out of Watergate.

Any cunning politician like Joseph Stalin or Mao Tse-tung or Mussolini or Adolf Hitler would have done the same. Nixon in that way is not a student of Machiavelli. He should read The Prince, but it is too late.

The only way politicians know to dominate people is either keep the threat of war continuously alive through newspapers, televisions, radio, speeches.... Keep people frightened, so they need your direction, your leadership. Adolf Hitler in his autobiography writes that a nation can become strong, great, only under two conditions: either you go on creating a threatening atmosphere that you are going to be destroyed or you start the war.

Q:* DO YOU THINK THAT GOVERNMENTS WILL KEEP ESCALATING UNTIL THEY FORGET

WHAT WAR IS LIKE, AND THEN BLOW 'EM ALL UP?

A:* They cannot forget, and particularly at this time when they have accumulated so much weapons. It is dangerous to forget. They can backfire. They can destroy you if you don't destroy them before time.

Either you have to use them in war or you have to throw them in the Pacific. You have to get rid of them. It is not a time to forget, and who can forget?

Just the other day I saw the petition of fifty scientists who are responsible of creating the nuclear plants in America urging the president and the Supreme Court that we were not aware what we are doing, and now it is beyond our capacity to conceive that if war happens, what is going to happen. Nothing like it has ever happened before. So it is time to stop.

Those fifty -- the most important American physicists, nuclear experts -- they are urging that it is time.

Not much time is left. You stop creating more and somehow destroy these weapons or use this energy into some creative way. Find out a way that the energy can be used to produce electricity, to run factories; that can be done. But the politicians they want to be on top. And both go on, America and Russia, threatening each other.

Smaller countries like India is trying to create a nuclear plant. Fifty percent of India's population is on the verge of starvation, and India is exporting its wheat to outside countries.

Rajiv Gandhi is my friend, but I would like him to be assassinated just like his mother. What he is doing to the country is simply inconceivable. And what you are going to do by creating a nuclear plant? You can never become a great nuclear power. It will take three hundred years for India to become a power like America or Russia. And for three hundred years, if you are going to create nuclear weapons, not a single Indian will be alive. This is simple madhouse.

So I say that this is the time we can make people aware that drop all the boundaries, if you want to drop wars. And I am not appealing to the politicians. My appeal is to the intelligent people of the world, to the young people of the world.

These fifty scientists should * join hands with the Russian scientists and should declare that we are not going to produce any more nuclear weapons.

I want that there should be a world academy of scientists. I can give them the place in my commune. We have enough space.

Q:* HAVE YOU LET THEM KNOW?

A:* Yes. That's what you have to do. Let them be aware that I am inviting them.

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scientists of the world can refuse and all the poets and all the painters and all the people who are not political, but creative, the masses can be convinced. Then Ronald Reagan cannot deceive.

If the whole intelligentsia of America appeals to the masses that we withdraw our boundaries, that now there will be no visa for entry, and now there will be no passport. Burn all the passports. Burn all the green cards. We are one world, and there is no need for anything. Movement from one country to another country should be a birthright to every human being.

This is the time that under the pressure.... There are two pressures humanity is under: one is the nuclear world war, the other is the disease AIDS which is spreading like a wildfire and which has no cure. Not even a single medical person in the whole world hopes that there will be a cure sometime in the future -- no possibility. The disease is a category in itself. It is not to be put in the same category of other diseases: cancer and tuberculosis and all that. They are now nothing. You should not call them disease.

AIDS has no cure, and it is so contagious that you need not be sexually involved with somebody; even kissing and you can get it.

Q:* I HEARD LAST WEEK THEY, THEY FOUND AIDS VIRUSES IN TEARS ALSO.

A:* Tears also. Soon they will find in perspiration. Any liquid coming out of your body will carry the virus. This is going to be even a bigger danger than nuclear weapons. And anybody who has AIDS would not like anybody else to know about it, because he will be condemned.

Governments are repressing the information how many people have AIDS.

Q:* THE GOVERNMENT IS REPRESSING THAT?

A:* All over the world, because any government accepting that there are so many people suffering from AIDS, then two things are clear: that that government is declaring that its people are sexually perverts, homosexuals; secondly, to accept that AIDS is there, then the responsibility of the government, what you are doing about it?

And there seems to be nothing that can be done. So the only way is suppress the information. Don't let it surface. But this is more dangerous. Every AIDS person should be stamped, the way you stamp your cattle, just on the forehead. Because he is a walking nuclear weapon, and he can infect anybody. Kissing should be prohibited, not drugs. Drugs will do, but kissing won't.

People should be made aware what precautions should be taken. No government is trying to do. In fact if you declare somebody that it seems he has symptoms, no hospital accepts him.

We have two sannyasins here who have AIDS. We have made a special place for them -- the most scenic place. We are giving them every facility that is possible, because those people are going to live only few months, at the most two years. That is maximum. Most probably within six months they will be gone.

We are trying to make their six months as comfortable, and as beautiful, and as relaxed as we can. But in the outside world there are people freely moving who have AIDS, confirmed. But they can bribe the physicians to keep it secret, and that is part of the physician's oath, that he will not make the disease of the person known. This is very dangerous.

They are not allowed in the hospitals because they may spread in the hospitals. Soon their families, the moment they come to know, then all love and all sacrifice and all responsibility will disappear. Then your own wife will not be ready to live with you. Your own father will suggest, "Get lost." Your friends will turn your ... their backs on you. Nobody would like even to see at you.

This was the situation in the middle ages of lepers, but lepers are not dangerous. In fact there are many kinds of leprosy which are not infectious. This disease is the ultimate outcome of homosexuality. It has to be dissected, analyzed, and given the whole perspective. I call AIDS a religious disease, because homosexuality was born in monasteries. Keeping men together, not allowing any women to enter in the monastery, not allowing the monks to go outside and mix with people, keeping nuns in their nunneries, not allowing any men to enter inside -- what do you expect?

All the religions have been preaching celibacy. Now celibacy should be made illegal. Anybody saying that he is celibate should be imprisoned immediately. All the monasteries should be closed, because those monks are dangerous. They have been all homosexuals. And it is not their fault.

When you take the vow of celibacy, your body, your chemistry, your physiology, your biology have no idea what celibacy is. And there is no way to communicate the idea to your body and biology. It remains 1/08/07

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just hung up in your head, and your body goes on functioning in the same way. It goes on creating semen, it goes on creating sexuality. Now what you have to do with it?

People have been known in lonely places to make love to animals, because even man was not available.

If you make the woman unavailable, he becomes a homosexual. If you make even man unavailable, he becomes a victim of sodomy. He starts making love to animals.

Love is such a natural phenomenon that preventing it has caused the whole problem. Politics has brought you to the nuclear third world war. And your religions have brought you to even a better chance to commit suicide. That is AIDS.

This is the time of such pressure, if we bring the whole pressure in the public's eye, there is a possibility to change the whole situation. It is always in danger then* people take drastic steps. Otherwise who risks?

And when life is at risk of everybody, who bothers whether you are American or Indian or Russian or Chinese. This is the time that we should stop calling ourselves Christians, Hindus, Mohammedans, Indians, Germans. And the people who have some kind of world fame, they should appeal to the whole world, that

"Destroy your identity cards, destroy your visas, destroy your maps, and remember that the whole earth is ours."

The war will disappear. There will be no need for war. In fact just as monasteries are responsible for homosexuality, wars are also responsible for it, because you don't allow soldiers to take their girlfriends with them. So what the soldiers are going to do?

Q:* THEY'RE NOT GOING TO MAKE LOVE TO THEIR GUNS. THEY'RE GOING TO MAKE LOVE

TO SOMETHING ELSE.

A:* They can make love even to guns. If you are left only with a gun and nothing else, you are intelligent enough to make an effort.

Q:* MY RIGHT HAND'S BETTER THAN A GUN.

A:* Gun is perfectly good. This pressure of AIDS and nuclear weapons to me is a great opportunity and challenge, and I hope that something good is going to happen soon. That we will not be so idiotic to die and destroy this beautiful planet. We are going to do something.

Q:* DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT THAT IS?

A:* I have. And soon you will know.... Just few days more.... My people are preparing.

Q:* WE OBVIOUSLY HAVE A LOT OF WORK TO DO ON OUR PLANET HERE.

A:* Right.

Q:* DO YOU THINK THAT WE SHOULD CONTINUE TO EXPLORE OFF OF OUR PLANET?

A:* No. Right now there is no time. This is sheer stupidity to waste money and time going to the moon and to the mars, because the nearest planets don't have life. There is a possibility of life, but those planets will take a lifelong journey. They are millions of light-years away. As far as we know in our solar system we are the only living people. In other solar systems scientists guess that there may be at least fifty thousand planets who have some kind of life. But this is not the time to discover their life; this is the time to save our life. And if the world becomes one, which I don't see that it is such an impossible thing.... If Oregon and California can be one nation, I don't see why Canada can also be not part of it. Why other nations can also 1/08/07

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be not part of it?

Q:* DOESN'T THAT START WITH OURSELVES THOUGH? WE HAVE TO START HERE?

A:* I have started. In my people you will find people from all religions, people from all nations, even Russians. You will find of all races -- white, black, yellow.

Q:* IF IT'S POSSIBLE FOR OREGON AND CALIFORNIA TO BE SIDE BY SIDE AND BE PART OF

ONE NATION, IS IT NOT POSSIBLE FOR SANNYASINS AND THE REST OF OREGON TO LIVE SIDE

BY SIDE AND BE PART OF ONE NATION?

A:* We are absolutely ready. For us there is no problem. Even if from some other planet somebody descends here in Rajneeshpuram, he will be received with celebration. We have no problem; all the problems are on their side. We have no hostility.

Q:* ARE YOU PUTTING THE RESPONSIBILITY ON THEM THEN?

A:* No, I'm not putting responsibility, just stating a fact. We are a minority, such a small minority that it is simply idiotic for Oregonians to be afraid of us. We should be afraid of them; we are not afraid. It is really a hilarious situation.

Q:* I'VE BEEN OUT THERE. THERE ARE PEOPLE TO BE AFRAID OF. YOU SHOULD BE AFRAID

OF SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE OUT THERE.

A:* No, we are not. We are not afraid of anybody. And that is making them more afraid, more hostile.

And we went on inviting them. We invited the governor, we invited the attorney general, that before you start anything saying about us, please come and see. And then whatsoever you want to say, you say. But they don't have even guts to come here. You have such impotent people in your governor, in your attorney general, that I am simply surprised why their wives don't divorce them. We are not going to kill them; we have not killed anybody. We are asking them to come, but they won't come. On the contrary they have made their army alert that within three hours' notice you have to reach Rajneeshpuram any day. Strange we invite the governor; he is inviting the army. He should have told us; we should have invited the army ourselves.

Why go such roundabout ways? We are straightforward people. We can invite the army, just the way we had invited the street people. We can have a project: three months, share-a-home* with the army.

Q:* THERE'S NO IMMEDIATE PLANS FOR THAT RIGHT NOW, IS THERE? GREAT. ARE THERE

ANY PLANS IN THE FUTURE THAT WOULD BE SIMILAR TO THE STREET PEOPLE INVITATION?

A:* No, I never repeat anything. Always something bigger. Something bigger is going to come next month.

Q:* I WOULD BE HAPPY TO HOLD IT UNTIL NEXT MONTH IF YOU WANTED TO TELL ME

NOW?.

A:* You will be there. You will be an eyewitness to it.

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Q:* DO YOU THINK IT'S TRUE THAT THE MORE LIGHT* YOU HAVE THE BETTER YOU CAN

SEE WHAT IS TRIVIAL AND OUTMODED IN YOUR CONDITIONING?

A:* Right. The more comfortable you are, the more luxurious you live, the more richness in all the dimensions of life, more is the possibility for you to become aware of one thing: that you have everything, but you don't have yourself. That you are surrounded by all the luxuries -- there is nothing more to be added to it -- but who are you? Living in a palace, but what the hell you are doing here? The question is bound to happen.

The poor man cannot ask it. He is looking for bread, he is looking for his children's medicine, he has no house. You think he will start inquiring about his interiority, about truth, about the meaning of life?

Q:* (UNINTELLIGIBLE, BHAGWAN ALSO TALKING).

A:* It is impossible for a poor man to be religious. That's why I say I am the rich man's guru. It has nothing to do with me. Only the rich man has the opportunity to inquire beyond the mundane things. The poor man -- I feel sorry for him, but I cannot think that I should go to Ethiopia and teach meditation there.

They will kill me. And I am not suicidal.

The world has enough technology now. If its old prejudices and stupidities can be dropped, we can make the whole world a paradise. Nothing is lacking. If we can reach to the moon, if we can create so much destructive power, why we cannot create creative power. The same power can be transferred into creativity, because power is always neutral. You can burn your cigar by the lighter, you can burn your house too. Cigar does not... your lighter does not give you any instructions what to do.

Science has made available all the energies. You are using them in the service of death. Use them in the service of life. It seems all the politicians in the world are followers of Reverend Jim Jones, because they are trying to turn the world in a Jonestown, except Rajneeshpuram. And sooner they realize it, the better.

Q:* YOU SAID YOU FELT SORRY FOR THE POOR MAN BECAUSE HE ....

A:* I feel sorry, not for his hunger; I feel sorry that he cannot move into higher realms of experience. I don't feel sorry for his hunger. I don't feel sorry for his death. I feel sorry that he could not afford the greatest experience of life, of the eternal flame in himself.

Pope may be sorry also, but he is sorry because these people don't have food, don't have clothes, don't have hospitals. Because I know those who have clothes, and have hospitals, and have schools, they are also in tremendous misery, suffering. They may not be starving, but they are not rejoicing either.

I would like the whole world to live so luxuriously that people start becoming bored with luxury. You should ask me how I am bored with Rolls Royces.

Q:* HOW ARE YOU BORED WITH ROLLS ROYCES?

A:* Ninety Rolls Royces, anybody will be bored. And my people are going to try to have three hundred sixty-five. They are bent upon to bore me. What you can do?

And the whole earth is capable for the first time to be so luxurious that you don't feel any material need.

All material needs are fulfilled, then what you are going to do?

There is nothing else than meditation. That is the only door that is left still open. All other doors you have knocked and seen there is nothing. Only one door is still open, inviting. And whoever has entered that door has never come frustrated, disappointed -- not a single case in the whole history of humanity that anybody who has reached the center of his being was disappointed, felt meaningless, was miserable, committed suicide -- not a single exception. That's why I say meditation is a scientific thing. That's how science works: if you can find something without any exception it becomes rule. Meditation is a scientific method, because in the whole history nobody has denied that it does not lead you to the ultimate 1/08/07

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blissfulness. But what can I do? It is just a simple question.

I feel sorry for the poor man because he cannot understand Mozart. I feel sorry for him because he cannot understand the dance of a Nijinsky. He cannot understand the flute of Pannalal Ghose* or the sitar of Ravi Shankar. My being sorry and sad is for totally different reasons.

I would like him to enjoy the best music of the world, the best poetry, the best painting, the best dance. I would like him to reach to his highest peak of intelligence, but his poverty is preventing him. And the politicians and the religious leaders are responsible for his poverty.

This is such a strange phenomenon that these politicians go on sympathizing with the poor people, with the starving people, with the dying people, and the same politicians go on throwing food into the sea.

Ethiopia is dying, and Europe has thrown thousands of tons of fresh oranges into the ocean.

And the political leaders go on talking about sympathy, compassion. The religious leaders go on talking about sympathy, and they are against birth control. They are against abortion: it should not be legalized.

Strange, they are responsible for creating more population; that means more poverty. The politicians are putting seventy-five percent of their nation's income into war, army, nuclear weapons, and people are dying

-- even their own people.

Thirty million people in America itself are on the streets. And you are creating nuclear weapons, and you are making efforts to reach to the mars or to the moon. You must have gone nuts!

And because I simply say the fact they are angry at me. They don't have any answer. I am ready for an open discussion with Ronald Reagan or Governor Atiyeh or anybody! And I would like to face me: that what you are doing and what you are saying are totally contradictory things.

On the one hand you are responsible for poverty; on the other hand you are showing so much great sympathy because these poor people are going to vote you. You are against birth control methods, because if birth control is applied, where Mother Teresa is going to find the orphans? It is such a complicated vested interest. Mother Teresa will die if there are no orphans. What she will do? And who is going to give her a Nobel prize? Orphans are needed, urgently needed, more the better.

It is a very simple thing, just the people of the world has to be made aware of it, and that is your work.

Q:* THAT'S WHY*, THAT'S WHAT I WILL TRY AND DO.

A:* Good. So come back again... And next time with a little beard.

The Last Testament, Vol 2

Chapter #4

Chapter title: You Are Totally Free

24 August 1985 pm in Jesus Grove

Archive code: 8508245

ShortTitle: LAST204

Audio:

Yes

Video:

Yes

Length: 142 mins

[NOTE: This discourse is published in the book: The Last Testament Volume 1, as Chapter 3.]

MA YOGA PRATIMA

RAJNEESHPURAM

OREGON

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QUESTION: BELOVED BHAGWAN, HOW ARE YOU HELPING TO CHANGE THE WORLD?

ANSWER: The world does not exist, it is only a word. What exists is the individual. By changing the individual, the world is changed. What has been done in the past with humanity is that people have been deprived of their individuality. That's why there are crowds, not individuals; Mohammedans, Christians, Hindus, but no individuals.

It is the same process which has been applied down the ages in the armies. The whole training in the armies is a basic effort to destroy the individual completely and to make him just a number.

If a man dies in the fight, in the war, his name does not appear on the notice board; what appears is that

#16 died. Now #16 has no wife, no children, no friends, no old father and mother; #16 is simply a number, and #16 is replaceable. Some other person soon will fill the gap and will become #16. And the man who was behind #16 was reduced by and by with subtle processes. The whole training of the army is that the person is made to do things which are irrational. In the beginning his reason tries to assert, but his reason is punished, his disobedience is punished, his argumentativeness is punished. His obedience is rewarded.

Soon the person can see that if he has to remain in continuous misery and punishment, then only he can allow his reason to function. Otherwise, he has just to follow whatever the order is. Even if the order is to drop the atom bomb on Hiroshima, the person does it exactly like a robot, without considering that he is destroying 160,000 people within seconds.

But he is not an individual, he thinks no more. His thinking has been very scientifically destroyed. For hours in the morning, in the evening, for years he's been parading: turn right, turn left. He cannot even ask,

"What is the point?"

It happened in the second world war that soldiers were needed, so everybody from every profession was asked to sacrifice himself for the country. A professor in Germany was asked to join the army. He had no more students anyway; since three years nobody had entered into his post-graduate research work, he was sitting unnecessarily. He should go to the army. He said, "There is no problem for me, I can go anywhere, but the army will find difficulties with me." But he was not listened to, and the first day when he was standing in the line and they said, "Left turn," everybody turned except him.

The commander asked him, "Have you heard me, or not?" He said, "I have heard, but I don't see any reason why I should turn left. And, finally, these people will be ordered again and again and they will come to the same position in which I am already standing."

"March forward!"... and he would not. He wanted some reason for every single act. Why should he march forwards, why not backwards? The commander got fed up. Such a person cannot be made into a soldier. He asked his chief what to do with this man: "He asked about everything. I don't know myself, I had never asked myself. This is a simple training of learning obedience, but this man is impossible. Everything is confronted with 'why?' The commander-in-chief said, "You don't know him, he is a very famous professor of philosophy. His whole life he has been arguing, doubting, and it is certainly difficult for the poor old man to drop all those habits. You give him some work which he can do, something very simple."

So he was sent to the kitchen and he was given a pile of peas and told that he had to sort them, the smaller ones on one side, the bigger ones on the other side. After one hour, the chief commanding officer came in and the professor was sitting there with closed eyes and the pile was exactly the same as he had left one hour before. Nothing had been done, not a single pea had been moved. He asked the man, "What are you doing? You have not done anything!"

He said, "So many problems have to be solved before I start. You said to me, the smaller ones on one side, the bigger ones on the other side. What about those that are in the middle? Where do they go? And it is not only a question of just three grades. In fact, there are many grades. Between the bigger and the medium there is again the middle, between the medium and the small there is again the middle." He said, "It is such a complicated mathematical thing and I am absolutely ignorant about mathematics." Finally, he had to be discharged because he was good for nothing.

What was the problem? The problem was they were trying to take his individuality away. They were trying to make him a robot, just to follow, there is no question why.

Years of turning left and right and marching forwards and backwards, one slowly stops asking why.

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drop the atom bomb on Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and he does not ask why. These people of Hiroshima had done nothing wrong, they had not harmed anybody. They were civilians, small children, women, pregnant women, old people -- they had nothing to do with the war as such. Why destroy them?

No, such a question does not arise anymore. An order is an order, and to follow it is his duty. He dropped the bomb on both the cities, went back to his camp, had a good dinner, drank with his friends, laughed, joked, and Hiroshima and Nagasaki were burning. Never before in history had such destruction been seen. But this man seemed to be absolutely unaffected. In fact he seemed to be enjoying, celebrating, because he had done a great job. The first man to drop the atom bomb has become a historical figure.

In the morning when he was asked by the journalists, "We certainly believe you could not have slept in the night. After killing 160,000 people, how can you sleep?" He said, "You don't understand the psychology of the soldier. I have done my duty and I have done it perfectly, and I had a very good sleep. I had not had that good a sleep for months, because this project was there, and I was so much excited by the project of dropping the atom bomb." He was being prepared for it; and, naturally, when the work is finished -- and finished with perfection -- one has the right to relax and go to sleep. So he said, "I ate well, drank, danced with my friends and went to sleep."

Now, something is missing in this man. His heart is no more functioning. His reason is dead. He looks like a man, but he has become a robot.

What has happened in all the armies has happened on a subtler level in all the societies. The basic method is the same. Every child is brought up to follow, to be obedient, to respect the elders. Every child is conditioned that on his own he is always going to be wrong, that he is a worthless person. One is not born worthy; worth has to be deserved, it has to be earned, it is a goal. Very few people achieve it. As a human being, he is condemned. As he is, he is condemned. He is given all kinds of shoulds and should nots, and the child is so helpless that sooner or later he is caught in the net.

It was a continuous problem for me and for my family. In India, it is an accepted fact that if any elderly person comes into a house you have to touch his feet. Now, I was not willing to do that. The first time it happened, one neighbor came in who was the age of my father -- or perhaps older than my father -- and my father touched his feet, asked him to sit comfortably. And then my father told me, because I was still in there, "Touch his feet. He is older than you, he is older than me."

I said, "He may be older, that does not mean that I have to touch his feet. In fact, I know this man. He is a drunkard, he goes to the prostitutes, he has been imprisoned twice for stealing. Now the police are suspecting him of a murder which has happened just two days ago in front of the house." In fact, my whole family had to force me not to say anything about it because I had seen it happening, and I told my father, "I also suspect this was the man although he had a black cover over his face. But I know his feet, I know his hands, I know the way he walks -- and you want me to touch his feet? I cannot do it."

My father said to me, "Then it is better, whenever anybody comes into the house, that you simply move from that place. Don't remain there to confront the man, to confront us and to create an embarrassing situation. Now what will that man think?" I had said everything in front of him. He really became nervous when I said, "I can recognize this man's walk and how he killed a man. Just because you are insisting, I am not going to the police station. Otherwise... this man is a murderer."

Seeing this he started almost trembling and perspiring. I said, "Look at him. He should touch my feet, otherwise I am going to the police." And the man touched my feet because he knew that I had seen him. He had seen me seeing him -- I was the only eyewitness. It was not late, just nine o'clock in the evening, and in front of my house there was a small street, dark. He was hiding in that street as that man passed on the road.

The man's shop was nearby, and the exact time in India to close shop is nine o'clock.

So everything was settled: Nine o'clock he would close his shop and he would walk in front of my house, because his house was there, four houses away. And that was the best place because the murderer could hide in the darkness. There was not even a lamp post, electricity had not come yet into that place. I saw him come out of the street....

It was a hot summer night, and I have never felt at ease with heat. Cold I love, heat I simply hate. So I was just sitting in my bed waiting for the air to cool down a little and then I would go to sleep. At that very moment this case happened. The man was not aware that I was sitting on my bed on the terrace, because all the lights of the house were off and everybody had gone to sleep. I was in darkness, and as he came out of the street I immediately recognized the man, although he had a black cover over his face.

I told my father, "Now look. You touched a murderer's feet just because he is a little older than you. But there are men, donkeys, many bulls and many dogs older than you, older than me. If this is the rule, that I 1/08/07

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have to touch the feet of anybody who is older than me, then perhaps I should commit suicide, because I cannot continue from the morning to the night touching everybody's feet. Do you think I don't have any other work?"

These are subtle strategies to distract the child from his innocence. If he follows the convention, the tradition, he is rewarded. I was always punished, never rewarded, but I accepted each punishment with great dignity, because each punishment made me a more solid individual, and they were not aware that they were helping me. Their rewards would have been bribes. Their punishment gave me mettle.

Every day I was punished, at home, in school. And they were wrong and I was right; but my crime was that I would follow only what I felt to be right. It has been a great adventure to be right and to be punished.

That gave me tremendous integrity, and everybody -- my father, my teachers -- later on recognized it.

Almost all of them recognized that they were wrong, but they treated me just like any other child; they never thought that I would be able to stand all the punishments and still insist on doing the things I wanted to do.

For years I had been standing outside the class. The teachers would find it easier to teach; otherwise, I was constantly asking questions. And I knew and they knew that they didn't know the answers. The moment I would ask anything they would say, "You simply go out of the class." I said, "But that is not the answer to my question."

For example, I asked the man who started teaching me arithmetic why in every language there are ten basic digits, one to ten. He said, "My God, I have been teaching mathematics for almost twenty years" --

and he was a first class M.Sc. in mathematics -- "nobody has ever asked me, nor have I ever thought myself why there are ten digits." I said, "I know the answer. But first I want to know whether a gold medalist in mathematics from the university knows a basic thing which is fundamental to mathematics."

He was angry, embarrassed. I said, "The thing is very simple. I have seen the villagers counting on their fingers, and there are ten fingers. And man must have started thousands of years ago counting on fingers.

And because all over the world man has ten fingers, hence every language, every country has those ten basic digits. Otherwise, they don't have any reason." And there have been mathematicians who have used lesser digits. Godel used only three, and he said that's enough: one, two, three. After three, comes ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen; after thirteen comes twenty-and he managed to solve all kinds of mathematical problems with only three digits.

I was interested in mathematics, that's why I had joined the class. But before joining the class, I had looked into the library in all kinds of mathematical books, and I had found this Godel, who managed to work only with three digits. That gave me the idea that ten digits has nothing to do with mathematics, it has something to do with the hands of man.

I said, "Rather than answering me, you are telling me to go out of the class and stand there at the window. There is no problem for me because I enjoy outside air better than this dark hole which you call your classroom, and this dirty furniture, ugly, hard.... And you force small children to sit on this furniture six, seven hours a day; that is enough to destroy their soul. I am perfectly happy outside. There are trees and birds and fresh air. And particularly you are not there, so I need not bother about any question."

One day the principal was on the round and I was standing outside the mathematics class. She said,

"This is strange. Whenever I come on the round, you are always standing at this window looking at the sky.

Sometimes out of curiosity I simply look out of my office to see whether you are there or not. You are always there, without exception." I said, "You have to ask my mathematics teacher, because he tells me to stand here, and I enjoy. He is boring, and whatever he teaches can be learned very easily from any book.

And standing here in front of lush green trees and so many birds and such fresh air, who bothers about arithmetic? And anyway, I am not going to count money in my life. So please don't disturb me, things are going perfectly well. He thinks this is punishment, I think this is reward -- reward for asking a reasonable question."

And I learned in these small things by and by that this society rewards lies, punishes truth, teaches truth but never rewards the truth. This whole society is against the individual. It wants everybody retarded. The retarded people are good; they never create any problem to anybody, they cannot raise questions, they are easily enslaved. The individual is essentially rebellious; he will say yes only when he feels it, otherwise he is going to say no.

You ask me how I am preparing to change the world. I am doing just the opposite of what society has done to individuals. I have to undo it. There is no need to do anything else. My sannyas is simply a process of undoing what the society has done to you. I am simply provoking your intelligence again. It is dormant. It 1/08/07

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is there; nobody can kill it, it can only be repressed. Finding a suitable, comfortable situation, it can again start growing.

I want every one of my sannyasins to be utterly unique. This is one of the reasons I am against communism, because communism is the ultimate result of destroying individuals. Other societies have done it partially, communism does it totally. Hence in Soviet Russia in these seventy years, not a single rebel; strange -- a country which brags about revolution but does not produce revolutionaries.

It is something worth noting that before the revolution, Russia was a poor country but had many geniuses. Perhaps no country could have competed in the early years of this century or the last part of the preceding century. If you want to choose the ten best novels of the whole world, from all languages, you will be surprised that at least five will be Russian, and they will be the topmost. And after the revolution not a single novel.... What happened to the genius of the country?

There was Fyodor Dostoevsky, who has written as nobody else has written in the world. His insight is so penetrating 'that if the Bible is lost, nothing is lost; but if his books are lost, humanity will be always poor, because Fyodor Dostoevsky cannot be replaced by anyone. And there were all these men: Leo Tolstoy -- a giant, each thing that he has written should be written in gold -- Chekhov, Gorky, Turgenev. These five people you will have to put first; then only five from all the rest of the world.

A country that produced people like Turgenev has not produced any poet of the same caliber, any novelist of the same caliber since. What happened? What went wrong? The individuality has been completely destroyed. People are just robots. A slight disobedience and you are finished, nobody will ever hear of you.

Just a few years ago, Andrei Sakharov was given the Nobel prize because he was -- and he is -- the greatest nuclear physicist in the whole world. Any country could be proud of the man. He has gone deeper than Albert Einstein, farther than anybody else in the whole history of man. But because he signed a few petitions -- not much: he has not created any revolutionary party or killed somebody or bombed a train, he just signed a few petitions. Before him three other scientists had received the Nobel prize, and all three were immediately thrown into imprisonment, because the Soviet government does not want any Soviet citizen to receive the Nobel prize. In their eyes, the moment a man receives the Nobel prize he becomes world famous, and he starts having influence around the world which he can use against the Soviet government.

The Soviet government does not want the world to know who the people are who are creating nuclear weapons. The Soviet Union does not want these people to go out of the country even for a single day. They don't want these people to know that their country is poor and starving and all this nonsense about communism is baseless. Outside, the world has everything of which Russians cannot even dream. And intelligent people like Sakharov will immediately be able to see how far the world has progressed.

In Russia all publications are from the government; no private publications, no private newspaper, no private magazines. The Soviet people know only what the government wants them to know. It goes on hiding many truths, it goes on spreading many lies, but the Soviet people have no way to find out what is true and what is not. And if a man accepts the Nobel prize, then he will be invited to receive it. He will have to go outside the country.

So three scientists who were members of Sakharov's academy -- he was the director -- had received the Nobel prize. The government told them to refuse and they did not refuse. That was a crime. They asked the government, "Why? -- if our efforts and our researches are being rewarded by the world, you should be proud of us. Three Soviet scientists getting the Nobel prize -- you should be immensely happy, because in the same year not a single American is getting the Nobel prize. But on the contrary, you want us to refuse it."

And what they did with these three people is absolutely inhuman. They kept them awake for fifteen days; they went on giving them anti-sleeping doses... fifteen days continuously, not a single wink. First, after three or four days, they started losing interest in their families. Their wives would come, but they would not look at them. The children would come but they would not respond.

After the first week, they were like zombies. They could not recognize their friends. After the second week they had forgotten their own names, and they had forgotten all about the subject for which they had received the Nobel prize. After three weeks they were finished, their whole psychology was messed up. And then they were produced in the court to show that these people were insane and the court had to decide what to do with them.

They have been made insane. Of course, the court asked what their names were, and the scientists were standing there looking with empty eyes as if they had not heard. One was shaken, forced to say his name. As 1/08/07

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if he had lost his voice, he looked all around -- what is happening? -- and finally he managed to stutter, "I don't know. Perhaps somebody here may remember my name; I am trying hard, but no name is coming."

The court decided they were insane. Just three weeks before, these people were declared Nobel prize winners. Within three weeks all three persons went mad, and where they had been for these three weeks there is no account. And why were they not produced immediately after they got the Nobel prize? If they had refused, disobeyed the government, then immediately they should be produced. What had been done in these three weeks? Sakharov knew everything that had happened, because he was the director; his conscience started hurting because everything was happening before his eyes. He was not doing it, but it was happening in the academy itself, and certainly he felt he was responsible.

The man somehow had saved a little bit of individuality. He signed a petition that this was absolutely inhuman, because he knew what had been done to these people, what kind of medicines and injections had been given to them, and he knew what would be the result. They had destroyed three Nobel prize winning geniuses, and now the court sent them to a mental asylum.

Sakharov simply signed the petition appealing to the president of the country that justice should be done. Even if they didn't want them to receive the Nobel prize, this was not the punishment for it. And because he signed the petition, the same happened to him. Immediately in the middle of the night he was arrested. He was removed from the directorship of the academy, but because he had already become a world renowned physicist, they could not give the same treatment as had been given to the three others. His name was known all around the world. So they sent him to Siberia.

Siberia is hell for Soviet Russians. There Sakharov is still alive. His wife has followed him voluntarily.

Doing nothing, such a genius is rotting. They hardly get survival food, and the whole day they have to work like slaves. Now, Sakharov has never worked in this way. He is a man of intelligence, not a manual worker.

I am against communism because it destroys the personality totally. But this is simply the logical conclusion of all the societies in the world. They differ in degrees. Communism has stretched the logic to its very end. In Russia they say the society is not for the individual, the individual is for the society. I would like to say to my people that the society is for you, you are not for the society.

Society is simply a word. There is no society. Civilization, ideology, all are jargon; the reality is the individual. So if we can undo, deprogram enough young people around the world, we are sowing the seeds of changing the world without talking about any change. We are it.

There is no direct way to change the world, because there is no world which you can change. Wherever you go, you will find individuals. So the individual has to be changed, and that is simple, not difficult at all.

If the society has been able to make you something which is absolutely not your potential, they have succeeded in doing the impossible. What I am doing is simply the natural course. If you have to take the water upwards, you will have to pump it, make arrangements. But if you have to take the water downwards, no arrangement is needed, the water will flow downwards itself. It is its natural law.

The societies around the world, religions, civilizations, cultures, have created very subtle mechanisms to destroy the individual. All that we have to do is to free the individual from those subtle mechanisms. That's why I am continuously hitting on every device that society has created to destroy people. The moment you are no more a Christian, something immensely beautiful will arise in you. The moment you are no more American or Russian or Indian, you will feel wings growing in you.

The moment you are no more addicted to any doctrine, you will be surprised what sharpness comes to your intelligence -- how you start looking at the same world with totally different meanings, different eyes.

Everything is the same -- but you are no more the same, as if suddenly a blind man has found eyes or a deaf person has suddenly started hearing.

Those examples don't do justice, but just give an indication. The man who is completely deprogrammed is my revolution. And we need only a small minority in the whole world; there is no need for a big majority to change the world. The majority in the world have never done anything; it is always a small group of people who have been running the world.

Now Jesus is running millions of people. Karl Marx is running half the world. Mohammedans are second only to Christians in number. Buddhists are third, Hindus are fourth. A few people -- not more than a dozen, you can count them on your fingers -- have been running the whole world.

We can create thousands of deprogrammed people, and those deprogrammed people will be like fire, wildfire. Wherever they will move, with them will move a new perspective, a new way of life, and they will become magnetic forces to which people will be simply pulled in.

So I have no plan to change the world directly. That has not happened, though many have tried it.

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Basically they went wrong from the very beginning.

Start with the individual and release his intelligence. Don't give him any program, don't give him any project; just make him free and tell him, "The whole sky belongs to you -- now you can fly anywhere you like, and whatever you want to do, you do, because there is no God to punish you or reward you. You are totally free, for any act that gives you bliss, that gives you peace, that gives you serenity." These people will become models and they will set the whole world afire.

So that is my idea of how we are going to change the world: by changing you.

Q: BHAGWAN, WHAT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF A DOCTOR TOWARDS A PATIENT WHO IS

DYING AND NO LONGER WANTS TO LIVE? SHOULD THE DOCTOR HELP HIM TO DIE?

A: It is something very significant to be understood. In the past, in the beginning days of medicine and medical science, out of ten children nine would die, only one would survive. The population of the world was very scarce.

Hippocrates created an oath for doctors -- he was the father of Western medicine, allopathy. Humanity is immensely grateful to that man, and his oath was perfectly right in those days. The function of the doctor was always to save life. Life was so difficult; to save people was certainly the need of that time. But times change, needs change; books don't change.

Still in medical colleges and universities, Hippocrates' oath is given to the doctors before they can practice. Now, this is so stupid. The world population is four times more than it should be. In five thousand years scientists have been trying to find out how long people used to live. They have not found any skeleton which is more than forty years old. Around the world, in every excavation it is the same situation: people have died at thirty, thirty-five; at the most, the longest life was forty.

Now things are totally different. The population is four times more than the earth can afford. And the progress of medicine has helped people's life to be physically healthy, with less possibilities of sickness, and it has lengthened life. In Russia there are thousands of people who are beyond 150. In every country of the world the average age has gone up, even in countries like India. Just forty years ago, under the British raj, Indians' average age was twenty-three; now it is forty-seven, more than double. The population has become four times bigger, the age has become double -- more than double -- and India does not have all the modern facilities. Its water is polluted, fortunately; food is scarce. Fifty percent of the population lives hungry, one meal a day.

Still, in spite of all this, the population goes on exploding. If Hippocrates was here he would change the oath, I am absolutely certain, because the man who cared for life would have cared for the whole living earth.

Now, in the oath these words should be added: that a doctor's duty is to help the patient if he wants to live or if he wants to die. It is his choice, and the doctor has to be respectful to the choice of the person. It is his birthright if he wants not to live any more, only he can decide. In certain cases -- perhaps the person is in a coma -- then his family, his wife, his children, his parents, can decide. Perhaps he has nobody, he is alone; then the medical board can decide that if this person is going to live in a coma forever, then what is the point of keeping him alive? This is not life. And in keeping him alive we are keeping so many people unnecessarily engaged, so much mechanism unnecessarily used, so much money is wasted unnecessarily --

and he will never open his eyes.

So these are the three things: If the person is still in his senses, aware, and makes a will that if he goes into a coma, then don't go on keeping him alive; and if he wants to die just today, it is his freedom. Up to now, we have been victims of death. For the first time we can become masters of death. Up to now we have been just helpless; whenever death comes, it comes. Now it is possible for us to decide both when to die and what kind of people will be born. Up to now it has been accidental.

You need carpenters and you go on producing doctors. Strange. You need doctors and you produce plumbers. Everything is topsy-turvy: the plumber is doing the work of a doctor, the doctor is somewhere catching fish. We are in a position to decide what kind of people are needed in the society, and this will be the sanest way. You grow certain vegetables which you need, you grow certain foods which you need. You make houses to be comfortable, to be beautiful, so you can feel cozy, safe against the wind, against the sun, against the rain, against the snow, and you need a certain comfortable, relaxed place. You ask the architect; you can give him your needs and he knows how to manage those needs in as aesthetic a way as possible.

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About everything we have become scientific; only about man we are still unscientific. This is unbelievable. We should decide what kind of people are needed: how many engineers, how many doctors, how many dental surgeons, how many surgeons, how many nurses, how many teachers, professors, and scientists. Everything can be decided -- and we can decide that these people should not suffer from the diseases that are known to us. We can create a protective wall. We can manage that these people will not be indoctrinated into some unnatural life pattern. We can create the first seed of being always a rebel.

So on the one side we have to be scientific about birth, and on the other side we have to be again scientific, human, compassionate. Help the person if he wants to live; perhaps he has not had time enough to live. If he wants to live, give him health, give him life -- not a life in coma in a hospital bed; that is sheer nonsense. Even if Hippocrates was there in such a state, going into a coma, coming out for a moment, going back again, he would shout, "Destroy that oath! I want to die; this is not life."

For anybody who wants to die, it is the function of the medical profession, of the commune, of the people who love him to make his death as beautiful as possible. Why make it accidental? Why should he die of old age? Why can't he die without becoming old and suffering all kinds of things which come with old age? He has lived, he has loved, he has created; now there is no need for him just to go on and on. And he is not being forced, we are not telling him to die, but we are simply giving the right, the constitutional right that if he wishes to die....

Yes, there are problems. For example, this moment he may think he wants to die, and by the time you have arranged everything for his death he changes his mind, he says no. So precautions can be taken: he can be given time, so that if he wants to die, he thinks it over for three weeks, and if after three weeks he still finds that he wants to die and he has not wavered-he can keep a diary for three weeks -- it is enough. And we can give him a beautiful departure.

There should be in every hospital, in every nursing home, beautiful places -- death temples -- where everything is arranged the best. The flowers, the garden, the people... and every person who wants to die must be given time so that he can learn something of meditation, so while he is going into deeper and deeper sleep from which he will never return, he can go on doing his meditation.

Meditation and death happening together is the best that can happen to anybody, because he is dying yet he is aware that he will be dead for you all, but not for himself. He will simply be freed from this body. And because he has died with awareness, he will not be born again. He will be free, a white cloud in the vast universe.

We have to make death beautiful: music, dance, silence, meditation. Up to now man has been born accidentally, dies accidentally, and between the two do you think you can live meaningfully? -- between two accidents? Your beginning is an accident, your end is an accident; do you think between these two you will be able to live meaningfully? Impossible.

The beginning should be considered by the most intelligent people. You are creating a body for a soul.

Create the best body, so only a better soul can enter into it. You cannot create the soul, but you can create the beautiful house. That's what scientists are capable of now, and if you can get the best souls, you will have a totally different world -- without wars, without poverty, without sickness, without old age. And you will have transformed even death itself into a ceremony.

It is a departure: all the friends can be invited, all those who have loved the dying man can be present.

He can say goodbye, thank all those people, can have another look, because he will not be meeting them again. In an accidental death this is not possible. Death has to be made according to the will of the man, and the medical profession is just to serve the freedom of the man, freedom of the individual. It does not matter whether he wants life or death -- whatsoever he wants he should be provided.

And there comes a moment in life when you would like to die. It is an immense relief. You have done everything that you wanted to do, you have lived every kind of experience that was valuable to you. Now going on living will be simply repetition, as if you are seeing the same movie again and again and again, because the army is surrounding the movie house, you cannot be allowed to escape -- you have to see the movie till you die, and even if you start dying they will immediately call the ambulance and take you to the hospital because you have to live and see the movie.

But you have seen the movie millions of times, and it is time -- and you want to be allowed to get out of the movie house. This is exactly the situation. When you have lived a hundred years, you have lived enough. Mostly, after eighty, people start feeling that now it is time to retire from life; just as they start feeling to retire from work nearabout sixty, nearabout eighty they start feeling to retire from life. There is no point.

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These people's wishes should be respected. But provisions can be made, time can be given for them to consider. Time can be given for them to learn a certain simple meditation. They can be asked if there is anything they would like that can be supplied. For a man who is going to die within three weeks, it is simply human that we should give him everything that he wants, and then let him go with celebration.

To me, death is not something bad. It is just a deep sleep. Those who fall asleep without meditation will wake up in some womb almost instantly. Here you are preparing their funeral pyre, and they have entered into some womb already. You are unnecessarily wasting your time. The man has managed to enter another body.

But if a man can die with meditativeness, then he is going to become part of the whole. No more will he be imprisoned in a small body. He will be as vast as the universe, and that is the goal of true religion, to help you to become part -- organic part -- of the whole existence.

Q: BHAGWAN, WHAT IS IT THAT HAPPENS WITHIN A TWENTY-FOUR-MILE RADIUS OF A LIVING MASTER THAT CAUSES A PERSON TO BECOME ENLIGHTENED WHEN HE DIES WITHIN

THAT TWENTY-FOUR-MILE RADIUS?

A: It is simply a law of existence, like other laws. The enlightened man has a certain energy aura around him. Everybody has, but different people have different colored auras. That color depends on their psychology. In fact, one can see the aura; there is a certain training how to see the aura that surrounds your body and particularly your head. And looking at that aura, much can be said about your mind, your past, your actions, your desires, your imagination, your ambitions -- almost your whole biography in the past, and, if you remain continuous with the past, the future also can be predicted.

As a person starts meditating, the colors of his aura start changing. When the meditation is complete, when you have come to your innermost point, you are surrounded by a twenty-five-mile-radius aura of immense whiteness. It is not like the sunrise, but it is like just before the sunrise, just those few moments when there is light but the sun has not arisen. In the East we have called it brahmamuhurt, the moment of the divine.

And why have we called that the moment of the divine? The reason was because of the exact type of light, without any source because the sun has not yet risen; it is far below the horizon but the night is over...

between the night and the day. In India, meditation has a very beautiful name, sandhya. Sandhya means the time just before the sun rises, and the time just after the sun sets -- just a few seconds -- because they both are the same, a light without source.

The ordinary person's aura is an average of two inches around him, but as he grows, becomes mature, the aura also becomes bigger. Finally, at the ultimate peak of your meditation, the length of the aura is twenty-five miles.

Now, in this area if somebody is dying who is in love with the enlightened one, has trust in the Master, whom do you think he will remember? The last thing is the whole life condensed.

The man who was after money will remember his bank balance. Certainly he is going to remember his money: "Now what is going to happen to the money?" He is not concerned with his death, he is worried about the bank balance and the stupid sons and daughters who will destroy everything. That is going to be his idea.

A man whose sex has been repressed -- a monk, Catholic, Jaina, Hindu -- his last moment is going to be full of sexual dreams, because now there is no life energy to repress it. They have all uncoiled, the spring is no more pressed by energy. Death is coming, energy is moving away. His past of repression will give him a sexual dream. He will die in that dream.

But if a man has loved a Master, has been in tune with someone who is enlightened, he is not going to think of dollars, is not going to think about anything else, because that love with the Master was the greatest thing in his life. In that moment he will open up towards the Master, just like sunflowers open towards the sun. As the sun moves, the sunflower moves. In the morning it is facing east, in the evening it is facing west.

The dying sannyasin, the dying disciple is just a sunflower. So when you do your gachchhamis you should be sitting in a posture facing towards your Master, because in those moments it can happen. If your gachchhamis are really authentic, if you are not doing them just as a formality, if you are really saying with your whole heart, "I go to the feet of the Awakened One," space disappears, time disappears. Suddenly, you 1/08/07

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are available to the Master.

The sannyasin dying will die with gachchhamis in his heart, utterly open, available, unconditionally available. Now what is there to be afraid of? He is going to die. There is no risk. Living, there was trouble, there were problems. He could not commit totally, his commitment was divided, partial. He had a wife, he had children, he had a job, he could not say to the Master, "I am absolutely, unconditionally surrendered to you, now you are my way. Lead me wherever you want."

But now he can say it. Now there is no wife any more, no children to go with him, no job, no money.

Nothing that has been important up to this moment and was preventing him from being totally connected with the Master is there any more. Then why not take the chance? He could not do it in life, but he can do it in death. He can really feel -- there is no need to say, "I go to the feet of the Awakened One" -- you need not utter the words. Your whole being feels it.

And in that is the whole secret. If you are within the twenty-five-mile radius, it is as if you are just sitting by the side of the Master, because that energy field is your Master's energy body; and the moment you become open, suddenly there is just light, and eternal life opens its doors.

First try it in life, because if you can become enlightened in life you will be able to enjoy this beautiful life which you were just passing by like a somnambulist. There is really a large number of somnambulists --

ten percent of people. So if there are five thousand people here, ten percent of them will be somnambulists.

They will not know, but they will get up in the night and go to the fridge -- the whole day they had been trying to diet -- and they will come back and go to sleep, and in the morning they don't remember anything, but they are puzzled: there has been nobody in the house and the ice cream has disappeared -- and it is ice cream that the doctors are against -- but they have no remembrance.

There have been very strange cases of somnambulistic people who will get up in the night and burn something in the house and go back to bed, and in the morning they will report to the police that somebody is doing mischief; their things are being burned every night.

It happened when I was visiting Hyderabad in south India. My friends there said it was not good that I accept the invitation of the family I was staying with. "They are rich and have a very beautiful mansion with a big garden, swimming pool, everything; but perhaps you don't know that house is haunted." I said, "If I knew it, then I would have certainly gone to their house, then there was no other way. This was just accidental that their letter reached before yours. I am going to stay there and see what kind of ghosts are haunting the house."

There were not many people in the house: the husband, the wife and a daughter -- only three persons.

The daughter was not more than fourteen. And what was happening in the house was that things were being moved in the night from this room into another room, sometimes being thrown on the roof or on the terrace or in the garden. And naturally, neither the father was doing it, nor the mother was doing it, nor the daughter was doing it. The obvious conclusion was that it was haunted.

I told them, "I would like not to sleep away from you, I want to sleep in the same room with your family." The man said, "Why? We have made a beautiful place, the best room in our house with the best view." I said, "You can all come there if you want, but I am going to stay with you because I am going to finish this haunting forever."

They said, "But how will you stop the haunting? We are afraid of the ghosts. We lock every door, window, we all check" -- first the husband checked, then the wife, then the girl -- "to be absolutely certain that whatsoever happens in other rooms, let it happen, but the ghost should not enter into this room." And they said, "Strange, the locks remain locked, but things from our room are thrown out. Still the ghosts seem to be very nice people; they are not destroying anything, not burning anything, not stealing anything -- they simply change things around. But what is happening... the dining table we find in the sitting room, all the chairs have disappeared -- and they are on the roof of the house."

I said, "You just leave it to me. Let me sleep with you." It was the daughter who was doing the whole thing, and it happens mostly at the time when a girl or a boy becomes sexually mature, which is a very delicate period. But she was doing it in her sleep. I had to remain awake till the girl got up. I watched her.

She was the last one to check, and she used to leave one window or one door available for herself. And this was all unconscious, she was not doing it consciously. She would throw things out. I caught her red-handed.

Her eyes were open but she was asleep. I had to shake her. She suddenly woke up and she said, "What is the matter? What is happening? Why am I standing here? Why is the door open?"

The father and mother came running. I said, "There is no problem. The first sexual desire is arising in this girl." In India, particularly, you have to repress it continuously. And this was a rich family; the girl has 1/08/07

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to pass at least a post-graduate degree, then she will be married... so it was going to be at least ten years more. This repressed sexual energy was a kind of poison. Unconsciously she was taking revenge, she was angry. And all that together made her a somnambulist.

I asked the parents. They said she was a somnambulist from the very beginning. In her childhood she used to move from one bed to another, from mother's bed to father's bed, and in the morning she would be puzzled about who had moved her from her mother's side. So I said, "Now the whole mystery is clear. She is a somnambulist, and now, because she has to repress her sexuality, she is taking revenge on you. And she has done a really good job.

"But now it will not happen any more. You do one thing: make her free about her sexuality. If she goes with boys, let her go; give her the pill, and the pill will destroy all the ghosts, don't be worried." And that's how it happened. The pill worked, and the house is no more haunted.

People are living almost in sleep, but the knock of death wakes them up. Suddenly they see their life is finished and they are drowning in darkness. In that moment they realize that they have missed life, they never lived it; they always postponed for tomorrows. They always thought to go to Kashmir, to go to the Himalayas, to see this, to see that, but they always postponed. What is the hurry? There is so much work to be done; they cannot waste time... three months in Kashmir.

So you go on postponing living, and you go on preparing to live tomorrow. You sacrifice today for tomorrow, and tomorrow never comes. One day suddenly, instead of tomorrow, death comes. It is a shock: you were waiting for tomorrow, you were planning for tomorrow your whole life, and now there is no tomorrow. And today you have never learned how to live, you were always preparing.

There is a strange story in Tibet that one man wanted to be the wisest man in the world. He collected as many scriptures as were possible and available in Tibet. His library had thousands of ancient scriptures, and he was running from one place to another, because in those days books were not printed. He wasted fortunes on every book because it was the only copy. His whole life he was collecting and waiting until the library was complete; then he was going to study all these scriptures.

But life finishes in death. He fell sick and his physicians said that he could not survive more than twenty-four hours. He said, "My God, in twenty-four hours, how am I going to read all these scriptures that I have collected and wasted my whole life on?" The physicians said that there is only one way: "You can have one thousand Buddhist monks, you can ask the Dalai Lama that they go through all the books and condense the essential points in those scriptures, so before you die at least you know the essentials." But those poor scholars had to read, and the books were thousands. They said even one thousand monks wouldn't do, and time was passing and the monks were trying, and the man was getting more and more nervous that soon the sun would set and he would be finished.

And he was inquiring again and again what was happening, why the essential message was not being brought. First it was thought that everyone would bring the essential core of the scriptures that he had looked in, but now there was no time to listen to one thousand monks and their summaries, so the monks were asked to please make one summary out of all these summaries. And be quick! -- because by the time the sun sets, the man will be finished.

They rushed back into the library, and there were great quarrels -- which is always certain where scholars are -- arguments about what should be included and what should not be included. And by the time they decided, the man was gone.

This is not a story, this is actually an existential fact about almost everybody. I say almost, because I have to leave a few enlightened people out of it. Only in death they are surprised... but then it is too late, nothing can be done. Everybody dies in frustration, in despair, in anguish, but a man of meditation dies in joy, in peace, at ease with the whole universe. And this becomes very easy if he is connected in some way with someone who has already arrived.

The best is to do it in life, because then you can live life in an enlightened way. And life is tremendously beautiful; it is just a miracle all around. But if in life it cannot happen because you have this and that and there are conditions, then at least in death let it happen. But it may not be possible for you alone, unless you have meditated so deeply that death will not create any disturbance in your silence. Then it can happen without the twenty-five-mile radius or it can happen anywhere.

But the chances of such a happening are rare, because if it could happen anywhere, it would not wait for death. It would have happened long ago. So this device of a commune is simply to keep you engaged here.

If you cannot become enlightened alive, I say okay, at least don't forget me when you are dying. But enlightened you have to become -- dead or alive!

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The commune is an immense field of energy and experiment, and soon in other communes around the world I will manage at least one person to be enlightened, so no commune misses this twenty-five-mile radius of energy.

Okay?

The Last Testament, Vol 2

Chapter #5

Chapter title: None

25 August 1985 pm in Jesus Grove

Archive code: 8508255

ShortTitle: LAST205

Audio:

Yes

Video:

Yes

Length: 149 mins

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

INTERVIEW WITH NORRES KANE, HASSELHOLM, SWEDEN

BHAGWAN:* Glad to see you.

QUESTION:* MY NAME IS LAWRENCE MORGENSON(SIC), AND I WORK FOR A NEWSPAPER IN

SOUTHERN SWEDEN. IT'S A SMALLER NEWSPAPER. AND I'VE GOT QUITE A LOT OF

QUESTIONS....

ANSWER:* Good.

Q:* ... SO IF YOU WOULD BE KIND, KIND OF BE AS BRIEF AS POSSIBLE IN YOUR ANSWERS.

UNFORTUNATELY I HAVEN'T READ ANY OF YOUR BOOKS, AND I KNOW THERE'S A LOT OF

THEM. SO MAYBE SOME OF MY QUESTIONS, OR ALL OF THEM, ARE UNNECESSARY IN A SENSE.

BUT STILL....

A:* It is good that you have not read. And you can ask the same question one thousand times, but my answer will be again and again different. So there is no problem. You start.

Q:* A QUOTE FROM ONE OF YOUR BOOK COVERS IS: "I TEACH A SENSUOUS RELIGION, BEAUTY IS FAR MORE VALUABLE THAN TRUTH. BEAUTY IS GOD HIMSELF, TRUTH IS JUST AN

ASPECT OF BEAUTY." AND I'D LIKE TO ASK YOU THREE QUESTIONS ABOUT THOSE QUOTES.

ARE YOU ACTUALLY TEACHING A RELIGION -- ARE YOUR IDEAS A RELIGION? I HEAR YOU

MENTIONING GOD. IS THERE A GOD? DO YOU BELIEVE IN GOD, OR MAYBE YOU'RE EVEN SOME

KIND OF GOD TO YOUR DISCIPLES YOURSELF.

AND YOU'RE SAYING BEAUTY IS FAR MORE VALUABLE THAN TRUTH. IS THAT WHY -- FROM

WHAT I SEE -- MOST OF THE PEOPLE HERE ARE YOUNG, GOOD-LOOKING PEOPLE?

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A:* That is my way of disposing God off. When I say beauty is God, I'm saying there is no God but only beauty. And I am making a distinction between truth and beauty, because truth is more a question of the head, it is more logical, philosophical inquiry. Beauty is of the heart, it is not logical, not philosophical; it is more poetic, more aesthetic, you can feel it but you cannot prove it. You can experience it, but you cannot explain it.

Truth, the very word looks dead, a logical conclusion. Beauty is not a conclusion, it is a sudden revelation. When you see a rose, it is not that you go through a logical solecism, that this is a rose and roses are beautiful so this must be beautiful. The moment you see it, the head stops spinning thoughts; on the contrary, your heart starts beating faster. Something totally different from the idea of truth.

Truth is argumentative. Whenever somebody proves a truth, all that he proves is that he is more logically proficient than his opponent. So in the whole history of philosophy, every philosopher has been contradicted. Five thousand years of philosophy and not a single truth on which all the philosophers agree.

Beauty is a totally different phenomenon. It is not a question of proving it. If you see a woman as beautiful, nobody is going to ask why. About beauty the question why is irrelevant. You need not prove, neither you can. In fact, if the other person is idiotic enough and continues to ask that you will have to prove why this woman is beautiful, you will be at a loss, you cannot prove it because it is something of the heart.

And proofs are something of the head.

What I am saying in that statement is that the experience of religion is just like the experience of beauty, love; it is of the heart. It is not a theology it is not a philosophy; it is more like a poetry, a painting, a sculpture.

It happened Picasso was painting on the sea beach and a man was watching him, almost for two hours he looked from the painting from every angle. And finally he could not contain his curiosity. He approached Picasso and said, that "Forgive me, I don't want to intrude into your work. For two hours I have been watching, but I cannot figure out what is the meaning of this painting." Picasso looked at the man and said,

"Have you ever asked what is the meaning of all the stars in the sky? Have you stopped in a garden and asked what is the meaning of all the flowers? What is the meaning of the songs of the birds? And if nobody is answerable for the beautiful sky and the gardens and the birds, why should you torture a poor painter? I don't know the meaning. I know that what I am doing is tremendously satisfying to me."

Q:* BUT YOU DON'T KNOW THE MEANING -- THE GOAL OF WHAT....

A:* There is no meaning and no goal. A life is in itself sufficient. A goal is needed only when something is not intrinsically valuable. The train has a goal, the machine has a goal. Without the goal the machine is useless.

But love has no goal. It is enough unto itself. And if anybody's love has goal, remember, there is no love in it; perhaps the man loves the woman because she is rich and old and going to die soon. If there is a motive, any end, it destroys the very phenomenon of love. Love has to be unmotivated, without any goal and without any meaning. When you hug a friend, have you ever asked, "What is the meaning of hugging?"

And you will not find the meaning. And if you can find the meaning, then it is not hugging, it is just pressing each other's bones unnecessarily.

There is something which is beyond meaning, which you cannot express through words. That's why you are using a gesture. Your hug is a gesture of something which is inexpressible by words, your hug is simply saying, "I would like you to be just part of me. I would like myself to be part of you. It hurts that there is a separation. It hurts that we are two." Your hug is immensely expressive, but there is no motive in it, no end to it.

Everything that is valuable in life is always a goal unto itself. There is no outside goal. Anything that is valuable cannot be a means to some end. Just thinking of it as means is reducing it, utterly destroying its qualities and values. Your interest is the end; if you can get the end without this means, you will discard the means, you will get the end. You have to go through the means because without the means the end is not available, but your eyes are focussed on the end.

Love, beauty, poetry, painting, dance, music, they don't have any goal, but they have immense blissfulness, a tremendous ecstasy. You can be drowned in it, you can forget the whole world. Time can 1/08/07

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stop.

Listening to Mozart, if time does not stop that means you are not listening, that simply means you are not capable of listening to Mozart.

Looking the paintings of van Gogh, if you are not forgetting the whole world, then you are not looking at the paintings, or you are only seeing the painting but it has not been a heart-felt experience.

Q:* SO THE POINT IS ENJOYING WHAT YOU DO AT THIS MOMENT....

A:* Every moment, every single moment; enjoy it so totally that you never have to look back, that you have never to repent that that moment was lost. Squeeze the whole juice of it, because the next moment is not certain, this may be the last moment. The past is gone, the future is uncertain; all that is certain is this moment.

And millions of people are losing this moment for a certain goal in the future, certain end to be achieved.

I wanted to say through that statement that religion has no goal, not even God.

Q:* YES, BUT YOU'RE WORKING WITH (INAUDIBLE). YOU COULD CALL IT A RELIGION.

A:* I can. In fact, I call this is the only religion; all other religions are in some way exploitation of man's weakness, helplessness, ignorance. They are not religions. This is the only religion, because there is no question of exploiting anybody's fear and creating a hell, exploiting anybody's greed and giving a promise of paradise and eternal joys there.

I am not promising anything. There is no judgment, and there is no reward and no punishment. If you live this moment totally, that is its reward; if you miss, you are already punished. There is no need for anything afterwards, there is no need for a judgment today. In the end, when the universe will come to its ultimate death -- there is no need. Each moment is giving you its reward, its punishment; and it is up to you.

To me, not to live the moment is enough punishment; you missed a living reality. And to live it fully is paradise.

Paradise or hell are not somewhere else. Each moment both are available to you. It is your choice.

People who are thinking of the past are missing; people who are thinking of the future are missing. People who are not thinking of past and future, and are simply living this moment intensively -- burning their life torch from both ends simultaneously -- they are the people who come to know what love is, what beauty is, what truth is.

Q:* SO DO YOU -- WOULD THAT SORT OF DENOUNCE PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO MAKE A BETTER FUTURE FOR THEMSELVES AS WELL AS FOR THEIR CHILDREN AND THEIR CHILDREN

AND SO FORTH? I'M SPEAKING OF PEOPLE THAT ARE ACTIVE IN TRYING TO MAKE A BETTER

ENVIRONMENT, LIKE GREEN PEACE, PEACE MOVEMENTS, PEOPLE THAT ARE WORKING WITH

TRYING TO MAKE A BETTER FUTURE IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

A:* I understand. Just think for five thousand years this is what every generation has been doing. The generation that has preceded us was thinking about us and making a better future; our present was their future. What they have done? In five thousand years continuously every generation, every father, every mother, every teacher, every priest, is creating a better future; and the total result seems to be just the opposite. Two things happened: they destroyed their present, they sacrificed, they thought they are martyrs, they thought they are doing great service to humanity. They were doing great disservice because the time that was given to them, a gift of existence, they wasted. And they have not been able to create a better future. Those five thousand years should become a lesson.

My own understanding is: If you are living your present totally, out of this living will be born the next moment. You have taken care of the next moment by living this moment totally. Just think how logic can lead to foolish attitudes. The father is told that he has to sacrifice his life for the children, his father 1/08/07

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sacrificed his life for him. Neither he could live, nor he can live, nor his children are going to live, because they will be sacrificing their lives to their children. So everybody is sacrificing to somebody else. Strange.

Then who is going to live?

So my insistence is live it! And out of your living experience the future will be born. If your living moment is of tremendous beauty and ecstasy, naturally you are creating future without any effort to create it. But if you are sacrificing to your children's future, deep down you will be resentful -- because your life is being destroyed by these children. And these children will be resentful towards you because you were continuously bragging that you sacrificed your life, and you will want that children should feel obliged to you. You would like your children to sacrifice their youth to your old age because you sacrificed. This is so stupid.

Q:* PEOPLE ARE GETTING VERY WORRIED ABOUT THE POLITICAL SITUATION WITH

ATOMIC THREATS, NUCLEAR WAR THREATS, THE ENVIRONMENT, AND POLLUTION, THINGS

LIKE THAT, WHICH IS NOT THE SAME SACRIFICE FROM FATHER TO SON THAT WE'RE NOW

TALKING ABOUT.

A:* I understand. It is just superficially different. Basically it is the same. The question of nuclear weapons should not be thought as a future problem, it is in the present moment.

So I'm not saying that you have to think about future. It is a living reality. We are living surrounded by nuclear weapons. So do whatsoever you want to do right now.

But your pacifists are thinking about the future -- that there should not be a third world war, that nuclear weapons should not be created. Stupid. Again, you are destroying the present moment. And the people who are creating nuclear weapons, their logic is not different from yours: they are also preparing for the future, for the future of their people, for the future of their nation. They don't want to be weak, they want to be stronger, they want to remain in a position so that nobody can invade them. The war mongers are thinking of future, and the pacifists are thinking of the future.

I'm neither a pacifist nor a supporter of war. I'm saying, let these idiots fight with each other and humanity should live this moment as joyously as possible. If we can manage to live in this moment peacefully, joyously, the third world war is not going to happen. We have not done anything about third world war. If people are happy, if people are enjoying, nobody can drag them into a war. War is not a simple phenomenon, it is very complex. People have to be miserable, people have to be in suffering, people have to be sexually repressed. People have to be in every possible way humiliated: by poverty, by hunger; only then you can manage and convince them to destroy each other -- because they have nothing to live for.

Karl Marx has a beautiful statement in his COMMUNIST MANIFESTO. I don't agree with his communism. But the sentence with which COMMUNIST MANIFEST ends is tremendously significant: he says,, "Proletariat of the world, unite." Because you have nothing to lose and everything to gain, fight; when you don't have anything to lose, fighting becomes easier. In fact, there is a possibility you may win, you may have the whole world. But if people are having a beautiful life, a loving life, you cannot convince them that they have to destroy other countries, other people; you cannot do that, it is impossible.

Secondly, if people are not sexually repressed -- which is the base of all wars.... Every soldier has to be sexually repressed. It is sexual repression which becomes violence. The soldiers and the monks in the monasteries are not in different boats, and both have been calamities to humanity. The monks had been going on crusades, killing in the name of religion, and the soldiers in the name of nation, in the name of culture. But the basic thing is that if they both are allowed to live their sexual life in a relaxed way.... The monks will forget all about the Catholic Church and the Polack Pope; and he will say, "Let them go to hell, I am not going for crusade." He has a girlfriend and every moment is so beautiful. You cannot send my people to fight for anything. They will say no, because they are enjoying every moment so much, why they should disturb their life and other people's life.

Q:* IT SEEMS THAT THEY'RE READY TO FIGHT FOR YOUR LIFE, THOUGH.

A:* No. They are just pretending. My people are not going to fight anybody. They are just enjoying toy 1/08/07

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guns, and....

Q:* ALL RIGHT. I DON'T THINK THAT I CAN AGREE WITH YOU THAT IT TAKES SUFFERING

SEXUAL REPRESSION, MAYBE POVERTY AND SO FORTH, TO MAKE PEOPLE GO TO WAR, BECAUSE IT DOESN'T TAKE VERY MANY PEOPLE TO START A WAR BECAUSE THERE'S SO MUCH

TECHNOLOGY INVOLVED. PEOPLE THINK THAT THERE SHOULD BE SOMETHING DONE NOW.

THAT ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT EVERYBODY JUST ENJOY (?) THEMSELVES...

A:* Do something now; that's what I am saying. Dance in the streets, rejoice in front of the White House, have parties before the Kremlin, make love before the White House. Thousands of people making love before the White House, that's what is to be done.

My people are always ready. That is going to embarrass these politicians and bring them to some sense, and they will see that these are not the people you can send to war. Just it has to be proved that people are now fed up with politicians and their continuous hunger for war.

Adolf Hitler, in his autobiography, has something valuable. He says if you want to become a great hero in history, then war is absolutely necessary because only in wartime heroes are born. That is true. In peacetime there are no heroes.

If Ronald Reagan wants to become a world hero, then a war is necessary; otherwise, he will be lost just the same way as Jimmy Carter is lost. Do you know where he is?

Q:* NOT AT THE MOMENT.

A:* Nobody will ever -- people will know only when he will die, then there will be a small news, newspapers, that poor Jimmy has died.

Q:* SO WHAT DO YOU THINK OF YOUR PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN PERSONALLY?

A:* Every politician is basically a criminal. The criminal and the politician have the same kind of mentality and the same psychology. The criminal is one who could not succeed in being a politician, he's a failure; that's why he becomes revengeful and goes into the direction of crime. The politician is the successful criminal. But nothing succeeds like success. Once he's successful, you forget everything about his criminal mind.

Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Benito Mussolini....

Q:* RONALD REAGAN.

A:* They are all criminals. Alexander the Great, Napoleon Bonaparte. Your whole history is the history of criminals, big criminals. Small criminals die into prisons; big criminals become presidents, prime ministers, kings, queens. But sooner or later, humanity is going to recognize that we have been writing a history of criminals who have done everything.

When there was this case about Watergate against Nixon, Mao Zedong made a statement. He was simply puzzled. He said, "Why so much fuss is being made about it? Every politician does it. That poor Nixon is simply caught red-handed, that's all. It is not a question of doing." Mao Zedong's statement is that every politician does it, has always been doing it, just Nixon got caught. He's saying about himself too, because he's a president of a country and he has done every kind of crime that a man is capable of. But he's successful.

So my attitude towards politicians is that they should be treated as criminals, they should be watched as criminals, and a climate should be created around the earth that the moment somebody starts becoming political he should be hospitalized immediately.

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Q:* THAT TAKES AWAY THE WHOLE IDEA OF DEMOCRACY, DOESN'T IT?

A:* Democracy will be possible only when there are no politicians.

Q:* ANARCHY?

A:* No. I'm not anarchist. This democracy is bogus, it is simply a rotary club of dictators -- four years, five years, one dictator; then five years another dictator. This democracy depends on two political parties at least, and those two political parties are basically the same. The psychology is that one party rules.

Naturally it cannot fulfill the promises it has given to humanity, to its nation, to the people; nobody can fulfill them, because to fulfill them will need such a radical change into everything, that these politicians cannot do that. But in five years' time, people become fed up with them and the other party starts getting support. The other party says, "We are going to fulfill all these promises." And the memory of people is not very long, psychologically it is not more than three years. That's why every election in every country is more than three years, four years, five years -- not before three years. It is a psychological standpoint: people forget about what the other party did five years before when it was in power. People's memories are just nothing. They see this party, which is in power, and they want to drag it out of power; and the other party is ready. In five years' time, they will be disillusioned about the other party, but by that time the first party will be ready to fulfill. This is a very cunning strategy. This is not democracy. This is politicians dividing themselves into two groups, with a subtle conspiracy -- unconscious, that, "You rule five years.

Five years we rule." It is just a rotating dictatorship.

Democracy, according to me, will be possibly only when there are no political parties at all, and each individual decides on his own. Somebody can stand for the president of the country, but no party is there to support him. Individuals he can approach the country, the people, he can explain what he wants to do, and if people feel intelligently that this man has some guts and can do something, they can support him. Otherwise there is no question.

Political parties become investments. Political line becomes your commitment. You are a Democrat.

Somebody is a Republican. They become almost like religions. You cannot do anything against the political line. You have to support the president that your party has chosen. This is not democracy.

Democracy will be partyless, without politicians, and then there is a hope that we may find people who are not interested in dominating, in dictating, who are really interested in making people more happy, more rejoicing, more richer.

But this is not democracy.

Q:* DO YOU CONSIDER YOUR COMMUNE, YOUR TOWN OF RAJNEESHPURAM, A DEMOCRACY?

A:* This is a democracy because there is no political party.

Q:* BUT ALL THE DIFFERENT INDIVIDUALS HERE ARE ALL WORKING TOGETHER FOR THE

SAME PURPOSE, CREATING OR MAKING YOUR IDEAS AND YOUR THOUGHTS OF HOW YOU'RE

SUPPOSED TO LIVE REAL.

A:* No. My whole insistence is that never try to follow me. I am not a reliable person. Don't believe in me. Don't believe in my words. Whatever I say, think over it. Unless it becomes your own idea and you can say that, "Now this is my idea", work it out. Nobody here is working my idea; they are working their ideas.

Q:* WHICH THEY HAVE ALL GOTTEN FROM YOU TO START WITH.

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A:* I have not enforced them. I have not indoctrinated them. I have simply explained my vision. And my whole effort is to teach them how to doubt, how to be skeptical, how to argue, so that they can argue against me, they can be skeptical against me, they can doubt me. And if, after all this doubting, skepticism, rationality, if they find that something is true, it has already become theirs. I don't have any monopoly on it.

I may have triggered the process, but I have no monopoly on it.

This commune is being run by people themselves. I'm not even a member of the commune. I have never gone to their commune meetings. I don't know where their offices are. Anybody who comes for few hours will know more about the commune than I have known in four years, because I never go out of my room.

In the morning I come to the meeting place, where I say whatsoever spontaneously I feel like saying. I may contradict everything that I have said up to now. Nobody can say to me, that, "You are contradicting yourself" because I have never promised anybody that I will not contradict. Nobody can blame that I am inconsistent, because I have always said that I am a growing person, continuously growing, and I have to deny every yesterday each day. How they can create a belief system?

Jesus has few sentences which he repeated his whole life -- consistent. Naturally it can become a catechism. People can follow direct guidance about everything with full details. Moses gives ten commandments, you have just to follow, you have to have faith.

Here, doubt is the climate. Faith is not the place here. I am explaining to them what I have experienced in my life, and leaving it up to them. And I never inquire whether anybody is following my ideas or not. I'm not interested in that at all. My whole interest is that my people should be intelligent, and then their intelligence will take care; then whatsoever they do is right, even if it goes against me, but it should not go against their intelligence.

I respect individuals, I respect their intelligence, I respect their sensitivity -- so much that I will be the last person in any way to give them beliefs, dogmas, creeds, DAS KAPITAL, HOLY BIBLE, no.

Q:* YOU KEEP TELLING THEM TO DOUBT EVERYTHING YOU SAY AND MAKE INQUIRIES

ABOUT EVERYTHING. BUT IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE ONLY THING THEY REALLY DON'T DOUBT

IS YOU AS A PERSON. I MEAN THEY KEEP GIVING YOU GIFTS, CARS, THEIR WORK, THEIR

MONEY.

A:* It is true, they cannot doubt me as a person because they have lived with me and they have doubted enough, and they have found their doubts are meaningless as far as my being is concerned -- not my thoughts. As far as a person, they have known me, they have experienced my love, they have known that my trust in them is immense.

Even in those sannyasins who have left, I still love them the same way, I still trust in them the same way. If they come back, nobody is going to ask them, "Why you have been missing for so many years."

Few sannyasins who have left even have made negative statements about me, and journalists have asked me, that, "Some ex-sannyasins has made this statement." And I say, "If he has been a sannyasin once, then he must be right." I respect the person. If he says that I am dishonest, then he must have found some dishonesty in me. I cannot distrust him.

Q:* THIS MORNING YOU WERE SORT OF MAKING FUN OF: THE MOSLEMS HAVE THEIR

MECCA AND THEIR BLACK ROCK THERE, THE COMMUNISTS HAVE THEIR KREMLIN, CHRISTIANS HAVE JERUSALEM. BUT WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEM AND THESE

RAJNEESHEES, THE TOWN HERE, THE TEMPLES AND YOU?

A:* The difference is immense. I have communes all over the world, and I am going to create more and more communes in countries where they are not. Rajneeshpuram has no prerogative over another commune, all communes are equal. And my effort is that all the communes around the world will make the whole earth holy -- not Jerusalem, not Moscow, not Mecca, but the whole earth. Less than that, I cannot be satisfied.

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Q:* BUT, ISN'T THIS STILL A PLACE WHERE PEOPLE COME FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD, SORT OF LIKE PILGRIMS GO TO JERUSALEM, OR....

A:* No. They come here not as a pilgrimage. For example, in Mohammedanism it is a necessity that Mohammedan at least one time in his life should go to Mecca, that is one of the fundamentals; otherwise, he cannot enter paradise.

You will be surprised. In India Mohammedans are very poor people for the simple reason because Mohammed taught them something which has become absolutely outdated and irrelevant in the modern economy. He taught them that interest on money is sin. That has made all the Mohammedans in the world poor, because without getting money on interest you cannot make industries, you cannot create businesses.

And who is going to give you money without interest? For what? You cannot pay interest to anybody, and you cannot take interest from anybody. So Mohammedans basically have remained poor for this simple, stupid idea.

Money has to move faster. That's why it is called currency. The faster it moves, the richer the society becomes. If I have one dollar and I go holding to that one dollar, then in this room there is only one dollar.

But if that dollar goes on moving fast, from one person to another person, then there are fifty persons here, fifty dollars in a single round, fifty persons have used one dollar. And if there are many more rounds, that much. But why people should give money if they are not going to gain anything out of it.

So Mohammedans are very poor, but still they go to Mecca. They sell their houses, they sell their land, because it is something of tremendous importance -- before they die, at least once they should go to Mecca.

Without going Mecca, there is no paradise for them.

Now there is no motivation here. I'm not promising anything to people that if they don't come here they are committing some sin. They come here just to rejoice, to meet the same kind of people who are here; and it is not one-way. I'm sending people from here to every commune so it is a constant exchange. Now many sannyasins from here are in Germany, many in Australia, many in Italy. And we exchange: if twenty people we send to one commune, then we take twenty people of that commune -- three months they will be there, three months those people will be here.

We want to create almost one commune around the earth, and we want the whole earth to be thought as holy, not a single small town or a small place to be holy.

Q:* THAT HAS BEEN THE WISH OF EVERY RELIGION SO FAR, HASN'T IT?

A:* No, never. Never it has been the idea of any religion that the whole earth should be holy, no.

Q:* WHY, THEN, DO THE CHRISTIANS SEND OUT MISSIONARIES AND THE MOSLEMS TALK

ABOUT HOLY WAR, AND SO FORTH?

A:* Yes, they are sending these people to create more Mohammedans, more Catholics, so Vatican becomes more powerful. It is the politics of numbers. But Vatican is not saying that Christians in India have a holy land.

You will be surprised that Indian Christians have been constantly asking the Pope that there should be an Indian church, just as there are churches in each country. India has no church, only Christians; the church is Vatican. All the Catholic churches in India are owned by the Pope in Vatican, they are not properties of Indian Christians. The Pope is interested in increasing more and more Catholics.

Mohammedans are interested -- Only two religions, Jews and Hindus, because they are the oldest religion in the world. And naturally, because they are the oldest religion, they never thought of conversion, there was no need. A Jew is born. A Hindu is born.

New religions came into existence -- Christianity, Buddhism. Naturally, they have to convert; otherwise, from where they are going to have their numbers? Hindus and Jews both have resisted the idea of conversion for hundreds of years, but finally they had to relax. Now Hindus are converting and trying to make people Hindus because their numbers are shrinking. Catholics are growing, Christians are growing.

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Query:-

No religion has ever tried that the whole earth is holy. For example, Hinduism believes that except India there is no holy country, and one who is born in India is blessed; all others are condemned and cursed. The whole world is full of sinners, all the saints are born in India; that is their attitude.

And then in India they have their religious capitol, Varanasi.

Q:* IS THERE ANY WAY TO MAKE A SIN IN THIS KIND OF SOCIETY?

A:* No. In my commune you can commit a mistake but you cannot commit a sin. Sin, as such, does not exist.

Q:* IF I STEAL ONE OF YOUR CARS, OR IF I RAPE YOUR WIFE?

A:* That is just a mistake. It is not a sin. And if my wife is willing to go with you, it is not even a mistake.

Q:* WHAT IF SHE'S NOT?

A:* If she is not and you force her, then you are committing a mistake against humanity -- not against God. There is no God, and because there is no God you cannot commit a sin. Sin needs necessarily a God, a supreme person to judge. We are not judges.

If you felt like escaping with my wife, it is perfectly human if you loved her, if you wanted her; but if she is not willing, then it is something that you are doing inhuman, a mistake of interfering into somebody's life and that is not going to give you any joy. A woman that has come with you unwillingly will become a pain in your neck; no hell is needed, she will give you hell.

So I don't prescribe any rewards. I don't judge that people will fall into hell. To err is human. And I can understand that one can fall in love with somebody's wife, and if the wife is willing it is perfectly right; but if she is not willing, then you are doing something barbarious (sic). For that, you need not be punished; for that, you have to be psychiatrically treated. That's what we do: if somebody commits a mistake, it shows that something is wrong in his psychology. We have therapies of all kinds available. We send him to therapies that his mind should be put right, that he should be made more alert what he is doing, that he should be made understanding that there is a certain territory around every individual you should not trespass it. That's the only way to live peacefully, lovingly.

Everybody trespassing everybody else is what is happening around the whole world. Here, nobody is trespassing anybody. And it is not that wives are not moving and husbands are not changing, that is happening so fast here as it is not happening anywhere else. Because freedom, if it is not available even for love, then what kind of freedom you have? And nobody fighting over the question -- here you will not find a triangle, that two persons fighting for one woman. You cannot make a film story here.

Q:* I'M SURE I COULD.

A:* Yes. It is difficult to make a film story or write a novel. It will be simply flat, because if somebody falls in love with my wife I tell him, "Take her, take her. There are other women who are waiting for me. So be quick and take all her luggage so she will not come back! And I have lived with her enough, and she has lived with me enough, and we are grateful for all those beautiful moments; now, you enjoy." Nobody has a monopoly on anybody. Each individual is a monarch, and nobody is a slave.

Q:* IT SOUNDS LIKE A VERY MACHO AND MALE WAY OF LOOKING AT IT.

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Query:-

A:* No. This is the place where all machos have been destroyed. This place is ruled by women. If any macho comes here, just within few days women will be chasing him and he will be escaping; that is happening every day.

Q:* WHY DO YOU THINK THAT THERE ARE MORE WOMEN HERE THAN MEN -- BECAUSE

THAT'S A FACT, ISN'T IT?

A:* Certainly.

Q:* WHY IS IT SO, DO YOU THINK? DO YOU HAVE AN EXPLANATION?

A:* I'm a man, and it is natural for women to fall in love with a man. And my whole religion is religion of love. Naturally more women have understood me immediately, directly.

There are men, but if you look deep down in those people you will be surprised: they also are in love with me, and they have grown their repressed feminine side -- because each man is half man and half woman, and each woman is half man and half woman.

We are born between two polarities: the mother and the father. They both contribute to your being. And this is one of the greatest contributions of Carl Gustav Jung to modern age, that...

Q:* I DIDN'T GET THAT?

A:* Carl Gustav Jung.

Q:* I DON'T KNOW HIM.

A:* You don't know?

Q:* NO.

A:* You must know, because he's one of the persons who has really contributed significant ideas after Sigmund Freud. This is one of his greatest contributions -- although it is not new.... In India for five thousand years, that idea has been in existence. On my dining table, somebody has sent me a statute. That statute is ancient, half man, half woman, and that has been the idea; but in the West Jung introduced it.

The man who are here are not here because they are men, but somehow I have managed their woman to surface. Because my whole approach is of the heart, it is difficult for man -- more difficult for man to be in communion with me, because in the beginning they have to start with the head. But slowly, slowly, I persuade them to get deeper towards the heart -- and the distance is not much, few inches. And once they get to the heart.... The heart is always feminine, the head is always macho.

So women are certainly -- more women here than anywhere else. You will not find so juicy women in the world. Because their womanhood has become, for the first time, respected. For the first time liberated, for the first time they are not thought to be second-category citizens; on the contrary, they are running the whole commune. It is more a matriarchy than a patriarchy. And they are doing so well that it is a proof that if we had allowed women all along the history to participate in all the affairs of man, the world would have been immensely richer.

Half of humanity has been crippled. They could not produce painters, singers, musicians, they could not produce scientists, they could not produce mystics. Not a single woman has founded a religion.

In fact, even people like Jesus -- who talk about love -- did not allow a single woman into his twelve apostles, and all those twelve apostles escaped when he was crucified. When his body was brought down, 1/08/07

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Query:-

there were three women -- not a single man. Those three women brought down the body. But they are not accepted even as saints.

The Christian trinity has no woman in it. What I am saying is that if women were allowed, the way they are allowed in this commune, their contribution would have been tremendous. The heart can do few things which the head cannot do, and all the great values belong to the heart -- compassion, love, beauty, kindness, sympathy. All great values belong to the heart. The head is simply a computer; it is good at mathematics, it is good in a scientific lab.

So many women are here, and they have been more reliable than man.

Q:* RELIABLE IN WHAT WAY?

A:* In every way. They will not leave me for any reason because they have not joined me for any reason at all. A man first joins me because he feels convinced that I am intellectually right. The woman feels me as a person who can be trusted. She has nothing to do with intellectual conviction.

Now, if tomorrow I change my ideas, the person who was convinced yesterday will leave because he was convinced with an idea and the idea has changed. The woman is convinced with my being, which is still there the same and will remain always the same. She has no need to change.

For example, I went into silence for three and a-half years. Few men dropped out because they had become addicted to my words. But I was silent and perhaps I will never speak again, so what is the point of hanging here. They escaped. But the women were perfectly the same, whether I was speaking or not; their love remained the same because it was not based on any intellectual ground. It was a heart-to-heart feeling.

One thing more I would like you to remember: that the man who are here are almost feminine for the simple reason, because I have changed their approach toward life. It is no more reason, it is not more logic, it is love, it is feeling. Unknowingly, their woman, which have been repressed, has surfaced. That has also created few problems. It has solved few complexities, but it has created some new problems. For example, if a man's repressed woman inside surfaces, he is no more interested in other women because that will be lesbianism. He's man.

Q:* SO INSTEAD HE'S INTERESTED IN OTHER MEN?

A:* Yes. So that is the trouble. But the other man is also.

Q:* WHAT'S THE TROUBLE WITH BEING INTERESTED IN OTHER MEN?

A:* Because that other man is also feminine.

Q:* OH, BUT EVERYBODY HERE IS FEMININE.

A:* Yes, that's what I am saying.

Q:* SO THEY GOT EACH OTHER.

A:* That's what I am saying, that this is really the gay society.

Q:* SO WHAT ABOUT ALL THE LEFT-OVER WOMEN THAT DON'T HAVE ANY MEN?

A:* Nobody is left over.

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Q:* THAT'S NOT THE RIGHT WORD TO USE, MAYBE; BUT SINCE A LOT OF THE MEN ARE

GAY....

A:* No, no, nobody is gay. Nobody is gay.

I mean everybody is so blissed out that it does not matter. People are loving each other, but their love and its qualities have become more feminine. It is not a macho man loving a repressed woman who is almost a slave, no. A man is loving a woman, but his love also has become more delicate, more softer, more human.

For example, in India a certain ethics has been followed for ten thousand years. Manu must have been a great thinker, wrote all the laws that have to be followed by Hindus. In those laws, one law is that once in a while the husband must beat the wife. Strange. When I came across that law, I could not believe what he's talking about, but when I came to understand women I immediately understood he's right. A woman loses interest in you if you are not macho.

Q:* DO YOU BELIEVE IN THAT?

A:* No, I don't believe in that. That's how it has been happening down the centuries. Include my commune out. I'm talking about the whole humanity that's what has been happening. The woman wants the man to be strong, just as the man wants the woman to be beautiful. The woman wants the man to be strong, a hero, and she wants him to prove. A woman immediately loses interest in a hen-pecked husband, he's not worth.

It is a very complex situation. Every woman tries to reduce the husband into a hen-pecked husband because it is a conflict of power, politics -- who is dominating. So unknowingly, she tries to reduce the man into a hen-pecked husband. And it is not difficult, it is very easy for a woman to make any strong person --

maybe Mohammed Ali the Great, or anybody, because her ways are such -- screaming, crying, weeping, throwing things -- the man comes house, whole day working, tired, and here he faces this scene. He may be right, but he apologizes, he may ask to be forgiven. He says, "I am sorry, I was wrong." Otherwise, the whole night he is not going to be allowed to sleep. And tomorrow morning he will not get the tea, and what about the lunch. The woman in the house has all the power. So the situation is: every husband finally finds himself in the house just a mouse. Outside he may be a lion, but inside the house immediately a great transformation comes in.

Here in my commune the feminine qualities of man have come to the surface. The feminine qualities of the woman have received respect and dignity. Both have become in a certain way whole. As the woman receives respect and dignity, her inner side -- the other side, the male side, also comes to the surface. She shows strength. She's no more weak, she's no more fair sex. She's not just a lady. Here you will find woman and man; no gentleman, no ladies -- those words are prohibited. Just raw people without any hypocrisy. And because everybody is trying to understand himself, in that very effort he understands others too, and understanding each other gives freedom to each other, destroys jealousies, destroys clingings.

Understanding is psychological health, and my people are psychologically healthy. They can accept anything that appeals to their understanding. There is no problem in it. If the woman wants to go with somebody else, she need not escape in the darkness of the night. She can talk to her husband, they have that intimacy, she knows that he will understand. There is no need to escape. And the man will feel grateful that the woman trusted him, even in such a moment when she is dropping him. She still respects him, still trusts him, and their friendship continues.

So here you will find many people have changed their wives and husbands, but their friendship remains just the same. And you can fall again in love with the same woman, there is no problem.

Q:* HOW DO YOU PERSONALLY FEEL ABOUT LIVING IN LUXURY AT THE SAME TIME AS

MILLIONS OF CHILDREN ARE DYING EVERY DAY FROM STARVATION IN THIS WORLD. AREN'T

YOU A LITTLE CONCENTRATED JUST TO YOURSELF?

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A:* Yes. Those people are dying because of their stupidity. And I'm not responsible for it. The Pope is responsible for it, because those Christian leaders, Jewish rabbis, Hindu leaders, Mohammedan imams, they are all preaching against birth control, against abortion. They are the people who are creating a ugly, poor world; they are responsible for it.

In four years time, not a single child has been born in this commune, and nobody is prohibited. Just simple understanding, the world is so much over-populated. If you have any understanding, you will not increase the population; you will do every effort that the population drops down.

But all religious leaders around the world, without exception, are trying to increase the population. They want more poor people because poor people can be converted.

In India I tried to find, but I could not find a single rich man who has been converted to Christianity, only beggars. Christianity needs beggars, only orphans. Mother Teresa needs orphans. Mother Teresa is against birth control, abortion; she has to be, otherwise from where this supply of orphans is going to come.

These people are responsible. Thousands of people are dying, but I don't feel any responsibility. In fact, for thirty years in India I've been teaching birth control, abortion, and people were throwing stones at me, shoes at me, knives at me. They have made attempts to kill me because I'm destroying their morality. If this is their morality then they are responsible, so die for your morality.

Whatever, as an individual, I could do I have done it and found that there are only wars. Nobody is going to listen, it is simply absurd. These people are going to be hungry, and these people are going to die, and that's how it is going to be. I've dropped that idea completely.

And then I started the movement of sannyas.

Q:* WHEN WAS THAT?

A:* It was in 1970. When I became completely fed up with these idiots who don't understand, and are not ready even for a dialogue. I had challenged all Hindu leaders, Buddhist leaders, Jaina leaders, that I want an open dialogue; nobody is ready to discuss because they know what they are saying is simply illogical, it is meaningless. And they are going to create a country of poor people. Fifty percent of Indians are right now ready to become another Ethiopia any day.

But I don't feel responsible because for thirty years I have been talking to these people, talking to their leaders, talking to their religious leaders.

Indira Gandhi was in touch with me and she was convinced whatever I was saying, and she told me, that, "You are right, but we cannot do anything because if we do anything then the Hindu votes are gone out of our hands, Mohammedan votes are gone out of hands, Christian votes are gone out of our hands. I will be finished." She asked me, "Do you want me to be finished?" I said, "If I was in your place, either I will do something or I will simply resign because there is no point. If I cannot do what is right, then what is the need for me to remain as a prime minister of the country? Then let somebody else who can do."

Q:* THEY'RE ALL CRIMINALS.

A:* Perhaps some criminal may be able to do it. Perhaps India needs an Adolf Hitler who can do it.

The question is how to reduce the population.

I will appreciate if a Hitler takes over India for at least twenty years and creates concentration camps and gas chambers and finishes at least half of the population. That will be a great blessing to the country, and that man I will not consider a criminal. I will call him a saint.

Q:* THE PROBLEM IS THAT THERE ARE TOO MANY PEOPLE, NOT THAT THE RESOURCES

ARE....

A:* Resources are almost nil.

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And there is no way that they won't allow the resources to be again nourished.

Strange ideas religious people have. For example, they will not use manure in India in which bone powder is mixed because bones... that is violence.

You will be surprised to know that in twentieth century one of the Hindu leaders, the most respected Hindu leader, Swami Karpatri, was teaching. I was present in the meeting, and I had to contradict him and create thousands of enemies because of that. A new dam was getting ready just few miles away, and this place was going to be the most beneficially of the dam because their lands were dry and the rains were not certain, and they will be getting as much water as they wanted. And what the man was saying to them, he was saying that, "Don't accept that water because before giving you the water they take the electricity out of it." Now, to electric people he was saying that that water is impotent, its whole potential has been taken out.

"It is dangerous for you to take that water; refuse." And the people looked convinced because without education they don't understand electricity is not something you take out of the water, it is not something like sexual potentiality that you can take out of a man and he becomes impotent. But this simile convinced them, and they were raising their hands. I had to stand up and I asked him, "Do you understand what you are saying, and what do you understand about electricity? What do you understand when the electricity is produced by a hydro-electric plant?" And I told the people, that, "The only argument against this man will be that, `This year you accept the water and you see your crops, and those crops will prove this man your enemy.' There is no other way. If crops don't come, if you drink the water and the thirst does not go then of course he is right." He was very angry; he was so angry he wrote a whole book against me about everything.

These people are responsible for poverty, for dying children; and all the religions of the world, in their whole history, have been preaching in some way or other poverty.

I want to change this whole approach. I'm all for comforts, luxury, richness, wealth, technology, science.

I'm not for renunciation. I'm for rejoicing. And I want people to live in all dimensions as richly as possible.

And my communes are going to be just models, to prove to the world that it is possible. These are the same people, just they need the right attitude; and they can create wealth.

When we came here, this land was lying down for fifty years, useless. And just see the stupid mind of the politicians. Nobody ever bothers -- such a big land, one hundred twenty-six square miles, just lying dead. And it was for sale; nobody was ready to purchase it because it was a desert. We got it. There was only one house when we got it; now there are houses for five thousand people, all fully air-conditioned. We made all the roads. We have made a beautiful hospital, a beautiful school. We grow our food, we are self-sufficient, we grow our vegetables, we are self-sufficient. We have our own cows, our own milk, our own butter. Everything we are trying. And the Oregon government is creating every kind of hindrance.

According to their land use laws, one simply things, "Is this a mad house where we are living?" We have used the land. For fifty years nobody bothers that the land is not used. It was according to the land use laws.

We have used it, we have made it productive, and we have committed a crime -- because it is not according to land use laws. It seems as if man exists for laws, not laws for man.

I have invited the Governor, the Attorney General, that you come and see, and you tell us that this is misuse of land. We don't bother about laws. The question is that we had made a desert an oasis, and rather than appreciating it you are putting cases upon cases in the courts. And none of them had come here; they don't have even guts, because they know that what we have done is right. And if they have any reasonability they should change their laws; if their laws don't fit, they have to be changed.

But they want to change us, not their laws. And these people will say that we are responsible for poverty in the world. We can make the whole world an oasis. Wherever you want, you give us land and I will send my people. I have one million sannyasins around the world, and we will change nay kind of place into a beautiful oasis.

I had told Indira that you give me all the powers, you simply retire. Within ten years I can change this whole country. But who wants to give power?

Q:* WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN WHEN THE TIME COMES THAT YOU DIE? WILL

THESE PEOPLE THAT ARE NOW WITH YOU, CONTINUE YOUR IDEAS AND YOUR THOUGHTS? IS

THERE ANYBODY WHO'S GOING TO TAKE OVER YOUR POSITION OF THE ONE THAT COMES UP

IDEAS? I MEAN, YOUR BOOKS ARE USELESS BECAUSE THEY'RE ALL CONTRADICTING EACH

OTHER.

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A:* They are. That's why I have been contradicting, that they should not remain useful in any way --

because if they are useful they will become holy bibles. They have to be contradictory. I'm making every arrangement that nobody can derive any theology, philosophy out of them; one can enjoy them, just the way one enjoys a flower, a cloud, a sunrise, one can enjoy them as a painting. But one cannot worship them.

And as far as I'm concerned, I never think of tomorrow. So the question what will happen after my death does not concern me at all. My concern is that this moment I can help my people to be as much intelligent as possible, and their intelligence will take care.

I'm not concerned, and I'm not going to give them detailed ideas and plans. My approach is.... For example, a blind man asks me, "Where is the door? Then whether I have to turn right or left to find the road, and where then I have to move to reach to the post office?" My approach is not to give him all these details; my approach is to take him to the hospital if it is possible to cure his eyes. Then he will be able to find the post office or anything that he wants.

I'm not giving to my people any detailed program or any idea what they have to do when I am not here.

In fact, even when I am here they are doing things on their own. I'm not, so they will not miss me as far as work is concerned; they are already doing it without me.

I have never entered -- neither in India nor here -- in their office. I have never looked what they are doing. I simply trust in human intelligence. And my effort is to sharpen it as much as possible. And that certainly I cannot do after my death, so I have to do it before my death.

Q:* CAN YOU CALL IT INTELLIGENSIA TO KILL FIFTY PERCENT OF THE POPULATION OF

INDIA?

A:* Certainly. Not fifty percent, fifty percent for India. Seventy-five percent for the whole world.

Only one-fourth population can live on this earth peacefully, comfortably, luxuriously; and I don't want that you should kill these people by throwing bombs. I don't want to create Hiroshima, the Nagasaki's --

which you will have to, if you don't listen to me. I would like every government to help the starving people to die peacefully; give them deep sleeping doses so they go into deep sleep and the sleep turns into death.

Give them at least a beautiful death. You could not give them a beautiful life, but you can give them a beautiful death with music and flowers, good food, at least once in a life give them the best they always wanted and let them depart. And once this population comes to a balance, then keep the balance, then don't allow each and everybody to go on producing like animals. Then they have to take the permission from the medical board, and unless the medical board supports that that child will be healthy, intelligent, they cannot have it; and no couple can be allowed to have more than two children, to replace them.

We can make this world, within ten years, totally different; just you will have to drop your ideas about morality, religion, death, sin. If you carry all those ideas, then wait for the nuclear weapons, they will do the work and they will not ask about your morality and they will not bother to give you a beautiful death either.

They will give you the worst death that is possible. So why wait for that?

And I'm not being inhuman when I say that. It is out of absolute compassion that I am saying that. It is simply ugly to keep hungry people somehow alive, because they never come up the survival level; at the most you can manage them below the survival level.

Q:* SO DO YOU THINK IT'S BETTER TO HAVE ONE-FOURTH OF THE EARTH'S POPULATION

LIVING IN LUXURY THAN HAVING THE TOTAL POPULATION LIVING FAIRLY WELL?

A:* Not fairly well. It is not possible. That is not the alternative: the alternative is twenty-five percent human beings living with absolute comfort and luxury, or the whole world living in misery, poverty, war, death, and finally a global suicide. These are the alternatives.

And it seems that we accept things which we are not doing -- whether they are moral or immoral. For example, if a world war starts nobody will bother about morality or immorality. It will not kill seventy-five percent people, it will kill hundred percent life -- trees, birds, animals, who have not done any wrong to you, who are not part of your politics, who are not Americans and who are not Russians. Those poor people will be unnecessarily destroyed, and nobody will think whether it is moral or immoral.

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I'm suggesting a very compassionate idea, that if a country cannot manage to live, then it is better for that country to silently die. Why cling to life? For what? Without Ethiopia, the world will not be losing anything, because what has come out of Ethiopia? Except hunger, poverty, continuous rape, murder, crime, what has come out of Ethiopia?

Q:* I'M NOT SURE ABOUT ETHIOPIA, BUT I'M SURE OUT OF LOTS OF THE COUNTRIES THAT

ARE NOW STARVING HAVE COME NATURAL RESOURCES (INAUDIBLE).

A:* That, too, came only when the population was balanced; not now. India has given too much to the whole world, but the population was so small. In Buddha's time -- and that was the peak of India's glory --

the whole population consisted of two hundred million people, and India included Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan, Sikkim. It was almost double than it is now. And the whole population was two hundred million. Now, just India's population is eight hundred million.

Pakistan is not included, Bangladesh is not included, Bhutan*, Nepal is not included; if you include them, too, then it will go beyond hundred.

It was possible in Buddha's time to contribute to the world, and India contributed much. It contributed philosophy, it contributed musician, it contributed poetry, literature, sculpture -- everything, but the population was small and the resources were so much that people had to do something creative. Life was comfortable. People could paint, people could make statutes.

It is so surprising to see an ancient temple like Khajuraho. In Khajuraho, there were one hundred twenty temples; only thirty have survived, others are ruins. But even to create one temple like that seems to be impossible. It is such a work. It must have taken thousands of artists and craftsmen of first grade, because each inch of the temple is carved. There are millions of statutes in a single temple. All the walls are made of statutes. And what statutes? Nowhere else such beautiful statutes have been created. Those people must have been very comfortable, no worry about food, no worry about anything else, and they could concentrate; and they made one hundred and twenty temples. And all over India there are thousands of temples like that, but that happened when the country was in a situation where the soldiers resources were more, riches were more; just by little effort enough was produced. But now what India can contribute? It is a bankrupt country. It can only suck and exploit sympathy of the whole world; that's what it has been doing for forty years after independence. Its bank loans go on increasing, everybody knows they cannot be returned, there is no way to return them. It goes on begging from every country for support, knows perfectly well there is no way to pay it. How long this is going to happen. The best way is to take some measures there. For example, for twenty years make it absolutely illegal to have children. Just for twenty years. In twenty years if there are no children born, and in twenty years millions of old people will die, the situation will change. It is not necessarily that you have to kill them, just be a little more scientific and little less superstitious. I don't see there is any problem in the world which is insolvable. All the problems are made by us, and because we go on clinging to our old ideas those problems go on standing there, and they go becoming bigger and bigger. And there is every possibility that by the end of the century perhaps we will not be able to live at all. And this is going to be a real calamity because in the whole universe this is the only place where life has reached to consciousness. This is the only place. The whole universe is in a way dead. This small planet is something special, not only life but consciousness, not only consciousness but ultimate peaks of enlightenment have happened on this earth and these idiots are going to destroy this. This is not only against the earth, this is against the whole existence and the whole universe, because once the life disappears from earth the whole universe will be just a big graveyard, infinite. All those stars are dead.

We are certainly privileged. And to miss this opportunity because of small stupid things -- communism, democracy, Christianity, Judaism, just small things.... We can drop all those things. My solution is one world, one government, no political parties, and we would have solved everything without any difficulty.

Q:* I'VE BEEN TOLD THAT YOU HAVE MADE A LOT OF DIFFERENT STATEMENTS ABOUT

PEOPLE FROM DIFFERENT NATIONALITIES, MAKING FUN OF THEM IN DIFFERENT WAYS. IT

WOULD BE INTERESTING TO HEAR WHAT YOU'VE SAID ABOUT SWEDISH PEOPLE, AND MAYBE

ESPECIALLY ABOUT THE SWEDISH SANNYASINS THAT YOU'VE MET.

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A:* I have to come there, because Sweden is one of the countries which is the most backward as far as sannyas is concerned.

Q:* IT IS BACKWARD?

A:* As far as sannyas is concerned, it is the most backward. We have very few sannyasins there, so I'm thinking to come.

Q:* I'M SURE THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT WOULD LIKE TO MEET YOU. IN WHAT

SENSE IS IT BACKWARDS, AS OF BEING SANNYASINS?

A:* Yes, only in that sense, and I'm interested only in that.

Q:* BUT WHAT MAKES SWEDEN MORE BACKWARDS THAN GERMANY, FOR INSTANCE, WHERE YOU HAVE A LOT OF....

A:* In Germany I have the biggest communes, and the reason is Adolf Hitler. Sweden has missed any Adolf Hitler. In Germany he has made way for me, not knowingly that he is making way for a strange man.

The German youth is fed up with the politicians because they have to suffer three world wars, and all these politicians were promising them that they are people special, they are born to rule the world. And they got exploited by these promises.

Adolf Hitler was not only a political leader, he was even trying to be a prophet. He was declaring himself reincarnation of an old testament prophet Elijah. The German youth is totally frustrated with prophets, messiahs, political leaders; and that's how they become immediately interested in me -- because I am against religions, against prophets, against messiahs, against the whole past. And Germany's past in these three wars has been so terribly of suffering that they are more open to receive me.

Sweden has not suffered, is not yet frustrated, is still comfortably satisfied the way things are. That's the problem, and that's where they will remain backward. Countries like Sweden, who are in a certain way comfortably well -- not hungry and dying like Ethiopia, neither rich -- super-rich like America, but just a middle class.... The middle class is the least revolutionary class in the world. They cannot do anything rebellious because the psychology of the middle class is they can always hope to reach to higher rungs, can become richer, can become more richer. There is hope to become rich for the middle class.

Q:* ISN'T THAT KARL MARX?

A:* No. Karl Marx never bothered about the middle class; that's why he missed completely everything in his philosophy, otherwise he would have been the right person. But because he never bothered about middle class, he thought of the poor, the proletariat, he thought of the capitalist, the bourgeois; and his idea was that sooner or later middle class will disappear -- few will become rich, more will become poor. The middle class he never thought that it is going to stay, it is a shifting class; so he never bothered about it. And that is where he missed completely.

Middle class has not disappeared. On the contrary, middle class is growing. Few poor people join it, few rich people join it -- because few rich people are falling down, few poor people are rising up. The middle class is becoming bigger and bigger. In fact, the rich are just one pole, the poor another pole; that's why in America revolution is not possible.

Marx used to think that America will be the first to go through revolution. He had never dreamt that a poor country like Russia will do the revolution. It was just out of his imagination -- because it was so poor and there was no rich class, so class struggle was not possible. But he could not see this point: that if middle 1/08/07

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class, instead of disappearing -- few becoming rich and the remaining becoming poor, and there is a gap....

He could not think that the otherwise is also possible, that few from the poor become middle class, few from the rich become middle class, and middle class goes on becoming bigger and bigger. And middle class never disturbs any status quo.

Sweden is a middle-class country. It cannot be revolutionary.

Q:* DO YOU CONSIDER YOUR OWN MOVEMENT A REVOLUTION?

A:* My movement is absolute revolution.

Q:* SO YOUR MOVEMENT COULD NEVER TURN SWEDEN AROUND, SO TO SPEAK?

A:* No, we will try. We will do our best. Because it is only a question of creating a longing that life can be lived more intensely. And I'm not telling them that in future, but now. My appeal is difficult for the poor; I cannot convert the poor into a sannyasin, that's very difficult -- because to tell him to live in the moment is to tell him to live in hunger. To him I can only say die in the moment because for living you have nothing.

But for middle class people, I have tremendous possibilities. Once they start understanding me, they can see the point very easily.

The super rich are also out of my gang. Marx' whole ideology was dependent on the poor and the rich, and my whole approach is dependent on the middle class. Just the question is that in different countries a different past; Germany proved good because Adolf Hitler has done so much harm and has left such a space in the soul of American youth, so it was easy. I have never been to Germany. Germany has been coming to me. But Sweden I will come.

Q:* DON'T YOU THINK YOU SCARE SOME OF THE GERMAN YOUNG PEOPLE HERE WHEN

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IT WOULD BE GOOD FOR THE WORLD -- FOR INDIA, FOR INSTANCE --

WITH AN ADOLF HITLER-TYPE PERSON TO CLEAN OUT -- TO HELP THE SITUATION.

A:* I don't care. My whole life has been disturbing people, shocking people, and these people particularly are immune. They have gone through so many shocks that now they go on sleeping soundly well without any disturbance.

Q:* THIS MORNING YOU SAID SOMETHING ABOUT THAT BELIEVING IS JUST CARRYING ON

KNOWLEDGE FROM SOMEBODY ELSE. BUT ISN'T THAT EXACTLY WHAT THESE SANNYASINS ARE

DOING?

A:* No.

Q:* THEY'RE TAKING YOUR KNOWLEDGE TO THEMSELVES.

A:* No. They are not. They are experimenting, they are meditating; and unless they experience, they are not allowed to spread anything. It is none of their business. I'm alone enough. I have my ways, just sitting here in this chair I can flood the whole world with my ideas. What is the need for them. They have to experience first. Unless it becomes their own, they are not to become missionaries. I hate the word missionary. Each sannyasin should speak on his own authority, then there is strength.

I have seen very famous missionaries, but without any strength. In India, a world-famous man was living, Stanley Jones. Perhaps he was the most cultured missionary, very philosophical, rational, compared to these idiots like Billy Graham. He was certainly a man worth considering. I used to go -- because he had 1/08/07

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an ashram in the Himalayas, so whenever I used to pass that site I will go. And he loved me, and he always wanted me to come there and be there. One day I was sitting in the garden with him just taking the breakfast, and I asked him, that, "This is something that perhaps will disturb you, but whatever you teach and whatever you preach -- I have gone through your books, I have listened to your talks -- but it is not your experience. It is all accumulated knowledge, borrowed. You have done well. You are a great scholar.

Whatever you say is perfectly in tune with the scriptures. But you don't have any experience of it. The Bible was always sitting on the table by his side, always. So I took his hand and put it on the Bible, and I said,

"Take an oath." He was nervous, but he was a honest man. He said, "You are right. It is not my experience."

Now, if it is not your experience, from where you are going to have strength? Books and knowledge derived from books cannot be your strength. I want my people to be strong, that if somebody does the same thing as I did to Stanley Jones they need not say, that "It is not our experience, we have believed in a master and we are repeating like parrots." No, that will be ugly. I would not like these people to say that. It is better to say, "I don't know."

Unless you know, don't bother to say anything to anybody. When you know, you will have to say --

because then you become just like a rain cloud, which is so full of water that it has to rain somewhere or other.

The moment you know you become a rain cloud, and then it is something totally different. You are not a missionary; you are not changing anybody and trying to convert him to your faith. You don't have any faith, you have a certain experience and out of sheer love you are sharing it. If that sharing transforms the man that is a different thing; it is not conversion, it is transformation.

The Last Testament, Vol 2

Chapter #6

Chapter title: The Intelligent Way

26 August 1985 pm in Jesus Grove

Archive code: 8508265

ShortTitle: LAST206

Audio:

Yes

Video:

Yes

Length: 119 mins

[NOTE: This discourse is published in the book: The Last Testament, Volume 1, as Chapter 4.]

MA PREM ISABEL

RAJNEESHPURAM

OREGON

QUESTION: BHAGWAN, IS IT NOT AGGRESSIVE TO TRY TO CHANGE THE WORLD TO SAVE IT?

Answer: It is aggressive. Even the effort to change a single individual is aggressive. Who are you to decide what is right for a certain person? Who are you to decide that the world, if changed according to you, will be a better place?

It is taking upon yourself the role of a savior. It is a very unconscious way of dominating people. It is for their own sake, of course, so they cannot even rebel against you. Every parent is doing that to the children.

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certain religion upon them without their consent. In every possible way their freedom is being cut. Less freedom, less individuality... and the moment the child becomes one hundred percent obedient, he has died.

In his disobedience was his life. In his rebellion was his being. And you cannot say that the intentions of the parents are wrong. I never suspect anybody's intentions, but that is not the question at all. The question is, what is the result? The intention is something inside you. You can have all good or all bad intentions, just keep them to yourself. The moment you start acting on them, then the good intentions become far more dangerous than the bad intentions. A bad intention can immediately be retaliated, condemned, not only by the person you are imposing it on, but even by those who are eyewitnesses to it. But a good intention is very dangerous.

Both are doing the same work, destroying the freedom of the individual to be himself, so their nature is not in any way different. Rebellion is possible against the bad intention and will be supported by everyone; but against the good intentions, rebellion becomes impossible. Everybody will be supporting the people of good intentions who are destroying the individual. Nobody will come to the individual's support.

It is none of our business to save the world. In the first place, we never created it. It is none of our responsibility where it goes and what happens to it. Our only responsibility is that while we are here we live a life of joy, love, blissfulness. While we are here, our responsibility is to know who we are and what this life is all about. And the miracle is that in doing that you are already changing the world without being aggressive.

There is no idea to change anywhere, so the question of aggression does not arise. You don't have even a vague conception of changing the world and making it according to yourself. You are simply living your life of which you are the master. You are trying to live as intensely and as totally as possible, because life is so short and the next moment is so uncertain that we have to take every moment as if it is the last moment.

Just the very idea -- as if it is the last moment -- will transform you. Then there is no need to be jealous, no need to be angry. In the last moment of life, who wants to be angry and jealous, sad and miserable? In the last moment of life, naturally all grudges and all complaints about life disappear. If each moment is taken as the last -- as it should be taken because the next is uncertain -- you are changing yourself; and your change is going to be infectious. It may change the whole world, although you had never intended it. That is my way of changing the world without being aggressive.

Otherwise, up to now all reformers, revolutionaries, messiahs were violent, aggressive. They were bent upon saving you. They never asked you whether you want to be saved or not; you were just something that they had to decide for. Who has given them the authority? -- they have not asked even your permission. And if you don't change according to them, they are willing to throw you into dark, dismal hell forever.

And, of course, if you are willing, willing to commit a spiritual suicide and just become a shadow to these people, they are offering you all the rewards that you can imagine in paradise. Hindus have tried to change the world, Christians have tried to change the world; all the religions have been doing that.

Communism, socialism, fascism, all have been doing that.

My sannyasins have to be totally different: a new phenomenon in the world, not interfering with anybody's life, and yet transforming the whole world. This is real magic. You never intended, you never imposed, you never interfered, you never trespassed anybody. You never made any judgment, "You are wrong and I am going to put you right." You were never concerned. That is their business, that is their life.

If somebody wants to destroy it, he has the right to destroy it. If somebody wants to live stupidly, then he is perfectly right to do that. It is his life. How he spends it, how he lives it or remains almost dead, asleep from the cradle to the grave, that too is his life and he is the master of it. So my people have not to interfere into anybody's life.

I have found a totally different approach to changing the world: you just change yourself. And when you are rejoicing and dancing, you will find somebody by your side has started dancing with you, because we all are the same human consciousness with the same potential. Nobody is a foreigner. We may speak different languages, but we understand one language. So when you are happy, smiling, the other who may not be smiling suddenly feels a smile come to his face. You may be a stranger, but you smiled at the person, you waved at the person. You have changed the person without his knowing it, without you intending it.

Great Masters like Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, Lieh Tzu -- have called this action without action. You are not taking any action, yet something is happening. And when things happen on their own they have a beauty, because deep down there is freedom. If the person waved, if the person smiled... you were not asking him, he was totally free not to look at you. But there is a synchronicity between heart and heart.

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yourself, and in that very change you have changed a part of the world. You are a part of the world. If your change is something that makes you rich, makes you joyous, makes you blissful, makes you a song, then it is difficult for others to resist singing with you, dancing with you, blossoming with you. A single individual can transform the whole world without ever mentioning the word transformation.

I started the journey alone. I have not knocked on anybody's door to come with me, but strangely, people started coming, and the caravan started becoming bigger and bigger. They came on their own. If they have lived with me, that was their decision; if they want to leave there is no problem. They are as free as ever.

We have already started the world going into a new phase of human history. We are not aggressive; we are not trying to change the world. We are not even interested in the world; we are just living our life, enjoying our life -- we are utterly selfish. Still, what has not happened in thousands of years is possible through us. But it will be action without action, a transformation which has not been intended, which has not been imposed. A transformation that has spread on its own and people have understood what it is, because, deep down, every heart speaks the same language.

Q: BHAGWAN, IT SEEMS THAT POLITICIANS TALK LIKE PRIESTS, AND PRIESTS ACT LIKE

POLITICIANS. IS THERE ANY SEPARATION BETWEEN CHURCH AND STATE?

A: They are not different people. They are the same type of people, with the same desire, the same lust for power. But they have chosen different areas.

The politician has chosen the mundane world. It has been an unspoken contract that he will not interfere in the religious realm and he hopes that religion will not interfere in his world. The contract has been good, and they both are trying to dominate humanity. One is concerned with the outside world, the other is concerned with the inside world. Their worlds don't overlap, so there is no conflict. In fact, throughout history they have been supporting each other. The priest has been blessing the politicians, the politicians have been praising the priests; and sometimes the situation becomes so ridiculous, unbelievable.

In the second world war, the German Christian archbishop was blessing Adolf Hitler and praying to God that Germany wins. And the same religion in England and the same kind of archbishop was praying for England, wanting victory for England and defeat for Germany. Their God is one, their religion is one, but the problem is that the German priest has a contract with the German politician and the English priest has a contract with the English politicians. Who bothers about God?

In fact, the priests are the most atheistic people in the world. They know perfectly well that there is no God. They know better than anybody, because that is their business. But they have to pretend that there is God. Without God they lose authority. It is in the name of God that they are archbishops, popes and shankaracharyas. If there is no God, then who are they? -- just ordinary people, suddenly reduced to nothing. So the lie has to be kept alive.

You can see in such situations that both archbishops know perfectly well that God is not the question.

And nobody is bothered about God; the question is politics. Otherwise, they should have refused. Both should have said, "How can we ask for the victory of Germany or England? Our God is one. Our prayers will be so contradictory. Our religion is one, our foundation is one, our churches are one, our master Jesus Christ is one. How can we do what you are asking us?"

But nobody raised the question. They did it because neither God nor Jesus Christ means anything. What means something is your vested interest. The German archbishop has his vested interest in Germany, not in England. He has to support Adolf Hitler. The English archbishop has to support England and its politicians.

And these people go on paying their tribute in return.

The archbishop of England will crown the king. Just a formality, but at least in the eyes of the mediocre crowds he is more powerful because he crowns the king -- he is a kingmaker. He knows perfectly well that the king can throw him out any moment; he needs the king's support. And the support is given because the king needs the support of the priest. The masses believe in God. The masses believe in the bishop. The masses go to the church. If the king wants to remain a king, then there has to be a mutual contract between the priest and the king.

And this has been the same all along. Political ideologies have changed -- kings and queens have disappeared, presidents, prime ministers have appeared -- but the basic contract is still carried. The American president before taking the oath of the president goes to the chief priest to be blessed. After his 1/08/07

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blessing, he will take an oath in the name of God and become the president of the country. In this way he is politically powerful and he has the support of the religious masses. But the poor people don't have any idea what kind of contract has been going on down the ages, that this contract is possible because both priest and politician are desirous of power. Lust for power is their common ground, and it is easier to divide so that they don't conflict, since that conflict may destroy the possibility of being in power for both.

For example, in India, things have been very clear. For five thousand years the politician and the priest have been in the same business. In India Hinduism divided the society into four classes. The first class is of the brahmins, the priests. They are the highest people. They own nothing. Brahmins are poor, but the ego is tremendously fulfilled -- they are the highest people. Even the king is lower because kings belong to the second category of people, the warriors, the kshatriyas. They have all the power, all the money, but they accept the priest as higher than themselves. They go and touch the feet of the priest because this way the masses who are following the priests and the religion are for the king. What humility, what humbleness! --

and it is sheer politics.

The third class is that of the businessman. The brahmin is poor because whatsoever he does cannot create wealth. He prays for people, arranges marriage. From birth to death, he does every kind of ritual; that is his profession, but out of that he cannot become rich. Poor people are all around. How much can you exploit them? They have been sucked for centuries, and the brahmin is only a parasite. But the poor masses don't have blood anymore.

So the third position in the society is given to the businessman, who is the richest -- richer than the warriors, richer than the brahmins. Because of his richness, he is accepted as just below the kings. In India, kings have been borrowing money from businessmen. There were no banks in the past; the business people had all the money. They were providing kingdoms with all the money they needed, on loan, on rent, on interest. The king needs money for the army, for new invasions; the king needs money for all his glory and show, marble palaces, golden thrones. From where is he going to get it? The poor brahmin cannot give it to him; the poor brahmin is used as the support for the masses. Businessmen cannot be used for that purpose, because the masses are poor, and are always against the rich.

Even ten thousand years before Karl Marx, the poor was always the communist. He may not know the word, but he can see that he is being exploited. He works hard from morning till evening. He works the whole year, and then too he is hungry. He produces everything, but everything is taken away by the businessman who has provided him with seeds. The businessman gave him money for his daughter's marriage. So all the poor people are in debt to the businessman; they cannot revolt, but they cannot love the rich man either. They can see what is happening. They are not blind.

The poor people are the fourth class, the lowest. And there is a good arrangement: no movement is possible from one class into another. The lowest, the fourth class -- the sudras, untouchables -- is prohibited from education, because with education he may start having ambitions. Then why should he go on cleaning people's toilets when he can become a teacher in a school? If he is well qualified to be a professor in the university, then why he should go on making shoes for people? It is better to prohibit him from the very beginning, so sudras are prohibited from education.

This fourth class is the biggest class, half of the whole population. They cannot marry into higher castes; they cannot sit on the same platform with higher class people. Even their shadows are dirty. If an untouchable passes by your side and his shadow touches you -- just his shadow touches you, not him -- you have to take a bath. He is reduced into an almost inhuman being. He supplies everything, he produces everything; he weaves the cloth, he makes the shoes, he cleans your streets. He does every kind of work that is needed by all these three classes.

The businessman is the mediator. He exploits, he accumulates money. He is happy, although he is third in the position. He can purchase the king, he can purchase the brahmin; who bothers that he is third grade?

He knows perfectly well that money is the highest power. The king is indebted to him and the priest has to depend on him, so deep down he is absolutely contented. He is really on the top, but let others enjoy the idea that they are on the top. What does it matter? What matters is reality.

The poor brahmin is contented although he is poor; he is contented because he is the highest class. His ego is fulfilled. The king does not care about the priest because the sword is in his hand. He can make the priest do anything he wants. It is just courtesy that he touches the feet; otherwise, he can cut off his head.

The brahmin also knows it.

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business people. It is just courtesy that he takes it on interest. And he never pays it; no king has ever paid back. There is no need. You cannot ask -- he has all power in his sword. For centuries he has been taking money and never paying it back, so whatever interest you want, he is willing to give. He is going to give neither the original money nor the interest. Nobody has ever done that; it is just not done.

But the businessman can enjoy the idea that the king is indebted to him. Without him he cannot rule the empire. It is his money and his power, and naturally he takes advantage of it. Licenses will be given to him, he will have first chance in every opportunity, because the king depends on him for money. It is a beautiful and very psychological arrangement that all feel great, all feel on the top.

The sudra, who is the fourth, also feels deep down that without him the society will die. He is the producer of food, of clothes, of everything. So let these idiots think that they are on the top, but they are all dependent on him. They eat the food he grows, they live in the houses he makes, they wear the clothes he weaves. Without him, the businessman, the king, the priest -- all will have to commit suicide. So he may be poor, he may be dehumanized in every way, but he understands that this is all just formality. It makes no difference. He is the real power.

So everybody is deep down satisfied and that's why revolution never happened in India and cannot happen. In every country where revolution happens, it is the intelligentsia of the country which provokes it.

They don't do the revolution, but they give the ideology. But in India, the brahmin is the intelligentsia.

Every revolution will go against him; naturally, he cannot give the ideology of revolution. He will give ideologies that prevent any dream of revolution, of change. Of course, the king, the warriors, cannot be in favor of revolution because it is going to be against them. They will be thrown out of their thrones. The businessmen cannot be for revolution, either, because all revolutions are against the rich.

And the poor man cannot even imagine revolution, because he has not been allowed any kind of education. He has been prohibited from any contact with the society of the three higher classes. He lives outside the town: he cannot live inside the town. The poor people's wells are not deep, they cannot put much money into making wells. The businessmen have big, deep wells and the king has his own; but even in times when rains have not come and his wells are dry, the sudra is not allowed to take water from any other well. He may have to go ten miles to fetch water from a river.

He is so hungry that it is almost difficult to manage one meal a day which has no nourishment in it --

how can he think of revolution? He knows that this is his fate. He has been told and conditioned by the priest that this is his fate: "God has given you an opportunity to show your trust. This poverty is nothing, it is a question of a few years. If you can remain faithful, great is the reward." So on the one hand, the priest goes on preaching to them against any change; and on the other hand they cannot conceive of change because they are undernourished. And you have to understand one thing: that the undernourished person loses intelligence. Intelligence blossoms only when you have everything that your body needs, plus something more. That plus becomes your intelligence, because intelligence is a luxury. A person who has only one meal a day has nothing, no energy left for intelligence to grow. It is the intelligentsia that creates the ideas, new philosophies, new ways of life, new dreams for the future; but that intelligentsia is already on the top. In fact, India has done something of tremendous importance: no other country has been able to maintain the status quo in such a scientific way. And you will be surprised, the man who did it was Manu.

His sutras are still followed exactly after five thousand years.

In this century only two persons have appreciated Manu outside India. One is Friedrich Nietzsche, the other is Adolf Hitler. Adolf Hitler was a disciple of Friedrich Nietzsche. Friedrich Nietzsche was the philosopher of Nazism. Adolf Hitler was simply practicing what Nietzsche had preached. The relationship is exactly as between Marx and Lenin. Marx was the philosopher who gave the whole ideology of communism, and Lenin put it into reality. The same was the relationship between Friedrich Nietzsche and Adolf Hitler.

It is not a coincidence that they both should appreciate a book written five thousand years before in India. Both appreciated because they could see what a grand master-planner Manu must have been to have made a system that is still alive. He prevented revolution for five thousand years, and perhaps he may prevent it forever. There may never be a revolution in India.

The Communist party is one of the oldest parties in India, but it has no power because to the Indian mind it has no appeal. The brahmin is not going to listen, because the communists don't believe in God; they are irreligious people, immoral people. The warriors are not going to listen because they have power of their own; anybody who has power is not going to listen to the communists because they want to distribute power and everything equally. Now if you have power, you would not like it to be distributed equally. The only 1/08/07

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joy in having power is that you are on the top and everybody else is below you; that you have succeeded in reaching to Everest and others are far below. You cannot accept the idea of distribution of power.

The businessman cannot be for communists because his money will be distributed equally. And the man who could have been interested in communism, the fourth class, is so unintelligent, is so much in the grip of the priest, that you cannot convince a poor man in India that he is poor because he has been exploited. I have tried; it is impossible. He will go on saying, "No. It is my fate, my karma, and please don't say anything which disturbs me because then I will have to suffer for it. It is only a question of a few years. If I can remain faithful in God and in the priest and in the scriptures, I will be freed and I will have all enjoyments." He cannot make a revolution, because revolution may destroy his paradise. Revolution is not appealing to him because he lacks a certain intelligence.

For centuries he and his forefathers have been only making shoes. They have never done anything else.

They are not allowed to do anything else; the system is so strict that no movement is possible. A shoemaker's son, whatsoever he wants, cannot move into another profession. He will not be accepted anywhere.

These politicians and priests are ambitious for power. There is another ambition -- the ambition for money, because that is also a power.

So there are three power lines. One is that of the priest, that he has a direct relationship with God; that he knows and you don't know; that he is wise and you are ignorant; that he is virtuous, and that is why he is born a brahmin, and you have committed sins in the past, that's why you are not in the first class. Everybody according to his actions.

The second power line is the political power which in the past in India -- and everywhere else, too --

was the power of the sword. And third is the power of money.

These are the only three powers; and these three kinds of people, rather than fighting with each other, have divided their areas, which is simply intelligent. They have divided their areas and they don't interfere in each other's area. The great mass which is exploited by all the three in different ways remains enslaved, goes on working for others, lives poor, dies poor, never knows anything of beauty, of music, of poetry.

These things are not for the poor masses.

My effort is to make it absolutely clear to the intelligent people of the world that these three are criminals. Anybody who has a will to power is a criminal. That is my definition of a criminal, anyone with the will to power. And why do I say the will to power is criminal? Because will to power simply means power over others. The others have to be enslaved and exploited. The others have to be reduced into subhuman species. The others had the same potential but they are not allowed to actualize their potential.

Will to power means that you want to become the master and reduce others into slaves. This can be done in several ways. One is through the knowledge which the priest has. After the British raj in India, there was a great struggle because the brahmins were not ready for their scriptures to be translated into any other language. They had to remain in ancient Sanskrit, which has never been a language of the people; it was the language only of the priests. But the country was under British rule and there was no way for the priests although they tried hard, saying that their scriptures should not be translated, that they would be destroyed.

But Britain was intent -- this was the oldest civilization; there may be secrets in their tremendous number of scriptures -- so they started translating them.

Those translations of Sanskrit literature destroyed the whole wisdom of the brahmins, because before, nobody had ever understood what they were saying. Sanskrit is a beautiful language, almost poetry. It has a magical quality to it. You can sing it, and even the prose sounds like poetry. So brahmins singing it, chanting it, nobody knows the meaning. Whatever the priest wants is the meaning.

Sanskrit is the language of God, and only the priests understand the language. So whatever transpires between God and man has to come through the priest, the brahmin. The same was the situation in other places. Rabbis never wanted their scriptures to be translated from Hebrew into the ordinary people's language.

About every religion it is the same. And the reason is that those scriptures are simply nonsense -- there is nothing in them! You dig the whole mountain, and you don't find even a rat. The knowledge was bogus, pretended, and the pretense could be carried for centuries only if masses were prevented.

You will be surprised to know that one of the Hindu gods, Rama, an incarnation of God, poured melted burning lead into a poor man's ears because he was caught hearing the chanting of the Vedas while hiding behind the trees where a ritual of brahmins was happening. There is no question of education; even hearing was not allowed, and this was the punishment. And Rama is worshipped as an incarnation of God.

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Gandhi prayed continuously to Rama. I am simply amazed that a man like Gandhi, who talked continuously of non-violence, was a worshipper of Rama, who is always carrying a bow and arrows -- those are his symbols. The man who was so cruel... I don't think that poor man was doing anything wrong. Just out of curiosity about what happens in religious ceremonies, he was hiding behind the trees and listening.

And of course there was nothing wrong in it, he could not understand what was happening; but because he did something against the social structure, Rama made that man deaf for his whole life.

But still Gandhi went on chanting every morning and evening the name of Rama. That was his last word when he was assassinated: "Hey, Rama! Oh, Rama!" The last word is addressed to that man who was not non-violent, who was not even human. There is no question of his being divine.

This is something that the movement of sannyas has to do: to expose that these three groups, lusty for power, have been conspiring against the whole of humanity. It is time that we should understand and destroy their contract. And that can be easily done: you just have to create more and more communes where there is no lust for power, where we are not against money, we are not against clothes, we are not against anything; where we want our sannyasins to live luxuriously, comfortably -- nobody is to exploit their labor and nobody is to dominate them -- and where the plumber is as much respected as the professor, there is no distinction at all.

I am surprised that people who come to visit the commune cannot see the simple fact that a plumber is as much respected as a professor. In fact, nobody knows who is a plumber and who is a professor, because one day the professor is a professor and another he is a plumber. And our plumbers are not uneducated, either. They can be professors any time.

This is for the first time that so many people are living with human dignity and without any effort at making them equal -- because that effort is aggression. That is where I differ from communism. My difference is totally different from other people's differences. They are against communism because their vested interests will be destroyed by communism. I am against communism because it is not enough communist. It is far behind.

This can be easily experienced. In Russia you can see that the people's individuality has been destroyed completely. Rather than giving them freedom, they are completely enslaved; and classes have not disappeared -- just their names have changed. Now there are the people who are in power, the power elite, and the people who have no power. Russia has two classes, and movement between those two classes is as difficult as it was in India.

For sixty or seventy years after the revolution, most of the same group has remained in power. People went on dying, new people went on taking their places, but those new people were not from the masses. For example, when Stalin died, Khrushchev had been waiting just behind him for all those forty years, knowing that the moment Stalin died he would become the most powerful man in the world. Of course, he hated Stalin, but even to utter a single word against him.... Everybody knew that Stalin killed all competitors, simply killed them.

In the revolution there were many leaders. The most important was Lenin. Stalin poisoned him, but the poisoning was done so slowly that it took two years for him to die. He was sick for those two years and Stalin functioned on his behalf, managing to put his own people in all strategic positions; because once Lenin died then his second man, Trotsky, would take over. That's why Lenin was kept alive; otherwise there was no need to give him small doses, just one dose would have been enough. He was kept alive so Trotsky could not come into power. And Stalin was only a secretary, he functioned on behalf of Lenin. He saw the moment it was time. He had changed all the strategic people, and Lenin was finished. And Trotsky did not have any hope of staying alive; seeing the situation, he escaped from Russia.

And he did well to escape because Stalin even killed his dog, he was such a revengeful man. And finally he killed Trotsky also in Mexico. He had escaped as far away as possible, but a professional killer was sent and he was killed. The people in line were Kamenev and Zinoviev. Everybody was killed, imprisoned, sent to Siberia and nobody ever heard what happened to those people.

Trotsky was the most important person, but he was so sure of his importance that he never bothered what was happening behind his back. Because he had done all this, Stalin was perfectly aware that the same thing could be done to him that he has done to Lenin, to Trotsky, to Kamenev, to Zinoviev, to all the people who were important, more important than him. And Stalin put his own people in, and the distance between him and those people was great. He always kept the distance the same. Nobody could think that he was a friend. Friends are dangerous in power politics because they are too intimate, too close, and dangerous.

Khrushchev was just a worshipper of Stalin. The day Stalin died and Khrushchev became the prime 1/08/07

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minister, in his cabinet he exposed his mind for the first time. He said, "For forty years I have been burning.

I have seen Stalin do things which nobody has ever done in the whole of history." He had killed almost ten million people after the revolution. Somebody from the back asked, "If this was the case and that man was a murderer, what were you doing? Why did you not say it before?"

Khrushchev laughed and said, "Comrade, you just stand up so that I can see your face, and please tell what is your name." Nobody stood. He asked twice, and then he said, "Do you now understand why I was silent? Have you got my answer? If you had stood up, you would have known what would have happened to me if I had spoken a single word against Stalin." But the same did happen to him.

There is a company of power elites who have been running the whole show and they have all the power.

They have the power of the priest because they have destroyed religion completely, there is no question of anybody being a priest. They have taken that role, also. Every book is published only by the government.

Every newspaper, every magazine, any information that is published is published by the government. The government is doing now what the priests had been doing before. The politician has taken over the area of the priest completely; now he is doubly powerful. He decides what is right and what is wrong, and he has taken the third power also in his hands, because everything is nationalized.

And what does it actually mean? When things are nationalized, everything goes into the hands of the politicians: all the factories, all the fields, all the money, everything -- people included, because people are no more people, they are commodities. So in Russia something very special has happened. For the first time all three have become one. That's why Russia -- the whole country -- has become a great prison, a great concentration camp.

We have to create communes around the world as models where people can come and see that power is not a need at all, that you can rejoice without being powerful, that you need not enslave anybody.

What you try to do by enslaving somebody can be done more easily just by being friendly, just by being more loving. There is no need of creating somebody as higher and somebody as lower. Everybody who is contributing to the commune in any way -- cleaning the toilets -- is as significant as being the vice-chancellor of the university, because both are doing something essential. In fact, the vice-chancellor can go on leave and there will be no trouble, but the toilet cleaner cannot go on leave; he is more essential, more fundamentally needed. He should be given more respect, too.

But nobody feels any inferiority, any superiority. Nobody bothers about it. The day's work is over and everybody is enjoying dancing, singing. Professors are there, therapists are there, cleaners are there. There is no class.

To me this is true communism: we have not imposed any equality. Everybody is unique, nobody is equal here; yet there is a subtle current of equality which does not make you similar. It leaves you unique, and yet all inequality disappears. Here nobody is a priest, or everybody is a priest. Here nobody is for power, or everybody has power, there is no problem. If somebody wants to hang around his neck, "I am the president of this universe," nobody is going to object. People will really enjoy.

Nobody is going to say to him, "This is not possible, you don't belong. You are claiming to be the lord of the whole universe, and you do just cleaning in the toilets." Nobody is going to say that. He can go in the toilets, go on cleaning them with his sign board hanging around his neck -- still there is no contradiction.

People will take it as a joke. Anybody pretending to be powerful will be taken as a joke, an entertainment; that this man has gone a little crazy.

Q: BHAGWAN, YOU HAVE CALLED YOURSELF A LAZY MAN BUT YOU FREQUENTLY SPEAK

FOR NEARLY THREE HOURS IN THE MORNING AND THEN GIVE A PRESS CONFERENCE AT

NIGHT. ARE YOU LAZY, OR EFFORTLESS? IS THERE A DIFFERENCE?

A: I am really lazy. And speaking, to me, is not an action. I can go on speaking twenty-four hours, just there is only one trouble -- my bladder. I don't stop because I have answered you, I have to stop because the bladder says, "Enough -- You just move, otherwise I am going to move."

But basically I am absolutely lazy. And to me, speaking is just like birds singing, flowers blossoming.

Yes, you can call it effortless effort, but that is giving it a very beautiful name to a very simple thing. I would rather prefer just to be called lazy.

Okay, any more?

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Q: YES!

BHAGWAN, WHY DON'T JOURNALISTS ASK DIRECT QUESTIONS? THEY TRY TO TRAP YOU AND

YOU SEEM TO ESCAPE EASILY.

A: They cannot trap me for the simple reason that I don't care about contradicting myself. That is their trouble. You can trap a man easily if he tries to remain consistent; then you can say, "Ten years ago, you said this." In ten years, everything has changed. Either the man has to accept that he was wrong then --

which goes against his ego -- or he can say that he is wrong now -- that goes even more against his ego --

and he is trapped.

I am not trapped for the simple reason that I say whatever I am saying right now. Only for that am I responsible. What I will say the next moment has nothing to do with this moment's statement.

I believe in change because the whole existence is changing. You cannot say to a rose bush, "This is not right. Yesterday there were no flowers and today, suddenly.... Were you wrong yesterday, or are you wrong today?" No, we accept it. Life is changing. It is a flux, a movement.

But in human society, in all the cultures consistency has been praised, appreciated, made respectable.

And only an idiot can remain consistent. The more intelligent you are, the less is the possibility of remaining consistent, because you will see the change. And with the changing life and the changing universe, how can you go on clinging to something which is no more applicable?

But people want respectability. They are trapped. I am very clear that I don't care about respectability.

You can go and call me self-contradictory, and I accept it as a compliment, because to me, only intelligence can be self-contradictory. The greater the intelligence, the more contradictions.

The society insisted for consistency and gave respect for it because it kept people retarded. They could not change. It went against their ego, so even though they could see that something is changed, they will not accept it, they will go on repeating the old; and society will respect those people as reliable, responsible.

"You can trust them, you can trust their word; if they give you their word, they will keep it." The man of his word has been respected for centuries.

I am not a man of my word. I am at ease with existence and I don't care about these idiots and their respectability and their rewards and awards. I don't care at all. I have a totally different approach. I am in tune with existence, and I am perfectly happy with it. If existence changes its tune, I change my tune. I keep step with existence, not with the culture, not with society, not even with my own past.

The past is dead. I am only alive here and now. That's why they are in trouble. They can trap politicians very easily, "You have said this, and now you are doing just the opposite." Nobody can say that to me because I never promised that I would be saying the same thing tomorrow. I never promised that I would not go against my word. I have never given any word to anybody. I am absolutely free to be myself.

That is the trouble, one thing -- that they cannot trap me.

Secondly, because they cannot trap me they start feeling nervous because they don't know what to do now. They have never come face to face with such a man who does not care for respectability, who does not care for honoring his own word, who does not care for all the rules that the societies have made. I live according to my own rules.

When I was a student in the university, just beside me two students were very much interested in playing cards, and once in a while they needed a partner. Three were there, they wanted one more and I was just easily available. But they were afraid to approach me.

One day one of them knocked and he said, "We know that you are not interested in anything we are interested in. You don't go to the movies, you don't go to see the matches, you don't want to meet people and share gossips about professors, who is flirting with who's wife. You are different, we know, but we are in trouble. We are wanting to play, but one partner is missing."

I said, "I can come, but the game will be according to my rules. I don't follow anybody's rules. Why I should follow?" They said, "That is difficult. The rules are fixed; a particular game has its rules." I said, "It may have, but who decided it? I am ready to come...." They said, "Wait, we will have to think about it."

They never came back. Once in a while, I used to walk in front of their room and I would ask, "Do you need a partner?" "We don't want any partner, because we cannot understand you. And if you make the rules, you are going to win because we will not know what to do. We know the old rules and we play the game according to them, but if you make the rules, you are going to win." I said, "That's clear. Whoever makes the rules, wins. That's why I never accept anybody's rules. I make my own rules."

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That is the trouble with the poor journalists. They have a certain game which they go on playing with politicians and priests. And they can easily trap the president, the pope, or anybody. There is no problem in it, but they cannot trap me. I simply don't play the game with the same accepted rules.

I have my own rules, and they cannot even learn my rules because I go on changing. So it is not that a journalist encountering me a few times will be able to trap me. Impossible. Each time he comes he will find another man. And he will come prepared for the old man, who exists no more.

The Last Testament, Vol 2

Chapter #7

Chapter title: None

27 August 1985 pm in Jesus Grove

Archive code: 8508275

ShortTitle: LAST207

Audio:

Yes

Video:

Yes

Length: 134 mins

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

INTERVIEW WITH LEWISTON TRIBUNE, MOSCOW, IDAHO

QUESTION: MY READERS WOULD LIKE SHORT, SIMPLE ANSWERS. THAT'S REALLY THE WAY

READERS LIKE IT.

Answer: Okay.

Q: ARE YOU PLEASED WITH THE PLACE YOUR FOLLOWERS HAVE CREATED HERE?

A: Just you start.

Q: IS IT THE KIND OF HOME YOU WISHED TO HAVE WHEN YOU CAME TO AMERICA?

A: I never think of the future. I never think of the next moment, hence nothing can disappoint me.

Whatever happens is perfectly good. The problem of disappointment arises only if you have a certain expectation. I have never expected anything in my life. Whatsoever has happened, I am thankful to existence. Everything is as it should be.

Q: DO YOU WISH THAT THE POLITICS IN OREGON WOULD BE DIFFERENT AND THE

TREATMENT OF YOU AND YOUR FOLLOWERS?

A: I don't wish anything. I simply live my life, if that changes somebody, that is his problem. If it 1/08/07

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changes the politics of Oregon, that is Oregon's problem. I am not trying to change anything. I'm not interested in interfering into other people's life. Neither do I want they should interfere in my life. To me, individual, individuality is the highest value. I respect the individual. I don't want to be interfered, nor I am interested in interfering in anybody's life. And that's what politics is, continuous interfering into everybody's life. I'm not a politician. My people have nothing to do with politics. In fact, they have gathered around me to live their life as joyously and peacefully as possible. They are not gathered around me to create a revolution in the world, change the world, make it a classless society or this and that. All that garbage we are not interested in at all.Tomorrow is always uncertain. Even the next moment has no guarantee. Only we have got this moment to live. The politician is a fool. He is destroying his life and he is destroying other people's life. Everybody should live his life, should sing his song and let everybody else to be himself. That will be a real human world. So I do not wish to do anything. I simply live and my people want to live with me. They love me, they rejoice with me. For them, I am their whole world; for me, they are my whole world. Beyond the red clothes, nothing exists.

Q: CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO ME WHETHER YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF TO BE GOD, A PROPHET, A WISE MAN, A TEACHER? HOW DO YOU THINK OF YOURSELF OR YOUR FOLLOWERS?

A: I am not a God. I am not that stupid. Only a stupid God can create this world, this mess, this madhouse. Certainly I am not that idiotic and I don't think God can be idiotic, so the only answer will be: there is no God. That's why this world is in a mess. It is enough proof that there is no God. There is nobody creating, controlling, maintaining; it is all accidental. In a way it is good, because in this accidentalness of existence there is freedom. In fact the very idea of God creating us is ugly. Then we are puppets. Only puppets are created. To me existence has always been here. It has no beginning, no end, it is a tremendous explosion of energy in all dimensions. But everything is accidental. Nothing is planned. Planning is not the way of existence. So I am certainly not God. And without God there is no possibility of any prophet, any messiah. God is a basic necessity for a prophet to exist. Moses will be nobody if he does not create the illusion that he has encountered God and God has given him ten commandments. Nobody will listen to his ten commandments. But because he's using the authority of God, for which no evidence exists.... Because those ten commandments are so simple, ordinary, that any human person of average intelligence can make them. There is nothing special in them, nothing unique, nothing that can prove that they are coming from a divine source. But to be a prophet you need a God. To be a messiah you need a God. God is an absolute necessity for all these mad people who want to project their egos; without the backdrop of God, it cannot be done. So they all insist, "Believe in God." Once you believe in God, then naturally you have to believe in the messenger of God, in the messiah of God, in the only begotten Son of God. Those are logical corollaries.

The moment I deny that there is no God, I have denied all possibility of being a prophet, a messiah, a messenger; all that is finished. I am simply a human being, just as you are. I don't have any pretensions of being higher than anybody. Certainly I am different from you, but not higher, not lower. Different only in the sense that you are fast asleep and I am awake. But that is not much of a difference. Just a little cold water has to be thrown into your eyes and you will be awake. And that's what I am doing with my people, throwing as much ice cold water in their eyes.

Q: HOW CAN I GET COLD WATER THROWN IN MY FACE? HOW DO I GO ABOUT IT?

A: I'm already doing it! And you know it! Just don't start shivering, because it's three centigrade temperature in this room. In fact there is no need to throw ice cold water, you are sitting in ice cold atmosphere, where one has to become awake.

Q: HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT I'M ASLEEP?

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sleep, perhaps you may be dreaming. You cannot be certain about me, but I am absolutely certain about you. Your eyes are open but you are asleep. You are trying hard to wake up a little and look through your glasses and find out who is awake and who is asleep. And that's a good sign. That means you will have to come here again and again, till finally you are awake. The moment one awakes one is simply shocked, seeing that the whole world is asleep. And in sleep people are walking, talking, going to the church, to the synagogue, in sleep writing books, making films, doing all kinds of businesses, but their spiritual sleep continues. When I say spiritual sleep, my meaning is that you don't know who you are. You may know everything around you, but just one thing you are not aware. That is your own center, your own being. The moment you know yourself you are awake; so awakening and sleep I am using as metaphors.

Q: WHAT DOES A PERSON, A MAN OR A WOMAN, EXPERIENCE BY FOLLOWING YOUR

RELIGION? DO THEY BECOME AWAKE?

A: There is no promise. I never promise anything to anybody. I am here, available. I am ready to explain how one becomes awake and my work is finished there. Then it is up to you. If you fail, I will not be disappointed. If you succeed, you succeed, I don't take the credit of it. So the success is yours, the failure is yours. My only work is to give you a clear-cut idea how you can become more conscious; I call it meditation, working, walking, sitting. I don't believe what others call meditation, that ten minutes or twenty minutes you do it and then just be your ordinary self for twenty-four hours and again for twenty minutes meditate. This is stupid. It is like saying to a person that every day in the morning twenty minutes breathe and then forget all about it, because you have to do many other things. And then next day morning you can breathe again. To me meditation is exactly like breathing. So whatsoever you are doing and where ever you are do it more consciously. For example, I can raise this hand without any consciousness, just unconsciously, out of habit. I have heard about two Jews walking by the side of the ocean. It was a cold morning and one Jew was keeping his hands in his pockets. It was really cold. And the other was continuously talking and saying and he was puzzled that the other man says only yes, no, but does not participate in conversation. This is not Jewish. Finally he asked, "What has happened to you? Have you changed your religion?" He said, "Whatever you want to say, you can say, but I am not going to take my hands out of the pockets." But he said, "What that has to do?" He said, "A Jew cannot talk without his hands. I am not going to talk; it is too cold to take the hands out." But you can raise your hand with full awareness. And you can see the difference between the two. The act is the same: one is mechanical, another is full of consciousness and the quality is tremendously different. Try it, because it is a question of taste and experience. Walking, just try for few minutes to walk consciously; each step be alert and you will be surprised that the quality of your walk is totally different, it is relaxed. There is no tension and there is a subtle joy that is arising out of your relaxed walking. And the more you become aware of this joy, the more you would like to be awake. Eating, eat with awareness. People are simply throwing food into their mouths, not even chewing it, just swallowing it. Thirty million people in America are suffering from overeating.

Strange world we are living one thousand man are everyday dying in Ethiopia because they don't have food, thirty million people are dying in America because they have too much food.These people who are suffering from obesity, fatness, cannot resist eating more and more. No doctor is going to help them, except if they become aware, while they are eating if they become aware. Few things happen as a by-product of awareness. Their eating will be slowed down. They will start chewing, because unless you chew your food you are putting unnecessary burden on your whole system. Your stomach has no teeth. Exactly one has to chew forty-two times each bite. Then anything that you are eating becomes liquid.A man of awareness only drinks, because before he swallows he has changed that solid food into liquid. And the strange thing is when you are chewing forty-two times, you are enjoying so much the taste. One bite of an unconscious man gives forty-two time more taste to the conscious man. It is simple arithmetic: the unconscious man will have to eat forty-two bites just to have the same taste, and then he becomes fat, and still unsatisfied. Still he feels to eat more. The man of awareness eats only that much that his body needs. He immediately feels that now there is no need, the hunger is gone, he is content.... Doing anything, so my meditation is a totally different kind of approach. It has to be spread all over your twenty-four hours. Even falling asleep remain alert how sleep is descending on you, so slowly, so silently, but you can hear the steps. The darkness is growing, you are relaxing -- you can feel the muscles, the body, the tense parts which are preventing the sleep -- and soon you will see the whole body has relaxed and the sleep has come. But slowly, slowly, a great revolution happens.

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Sleep comes to you, but something deep inside you goes on remaining awake, even in sleep. So the situation is: you are asleep even when you think you are awake and I'm awake even when you think I'm asleep. And unless a man becomes aware in his sleep he is not aware, not awake; that is the criterion.And there are so many by products that you can judge. Dreams disappear, because dreams need you to be completely unconscious. They come from the unconscious mind. But if you are conscious, they cannot come. Sigmund Freud would have been immensely enriched if he had come to a man like me who has no dreams. He would have puzzled also and he would have to change his whole idea of psychoanalysis. But he came only across people who were asleep. He himself was asleep -- he had no idea of any spiritual awakening -- otherwise he would have certainly realized that there is a space when man is conscious, just conscious, and there are no dreams at all.If dreams disappear in the night, the second thing will happen to you: in the daytime, thoughts will disappear. That does not mean you will become incapable of thinking, that simply means you will not just go on thinking mechanically, unnecessarily. You will be capable of thinking if you want to think, otherwise you will be silent.And a man who can remain silent for hours is gathering energy so whenever he wants to think his thinking has some strength, some power, some tremendous energy. The ordinary people's thinking are just impotent, their thoughts are just vagrant... clouds floating in their mind. A man of meditation will find dreams disappear and then the sleep is beauty, incomparable. Then sleep becomes spiritual and to transform sleep into spirituality is religion. Then your whole day becomes a day of silence.

You will talk but something deep down in you will remain a silent witness. So you will not say things which will unnecessarily create trouble for you and trouble for others. You will say only that which is absolutely needed. You will say only the truth, otherwise you will be capable enough to say, "I do not know." You will not believe in anything. Either you will know it or you will not know it. Belief is a deception: you don't know, yet you pretend as if you know. All these people in temples, in churches, in synagogues, what they are doing? Whom they are praying?

They don't know God. Their priest does not know God. They don't know that ever any prayer has been heard by anybody. They don't know that ever any prayer has been answered by anybody. Still they are praying to a God....

There is a beautiful story in Leo Tolstoy. Three uneducated, illiterate villagers who used to live on a small island in a river, became famous all over the country as great saints. Now this was too much for the archbishop, because in Christianity you can be a saint only if the church certifies you to be a saint. In fact, the word saint comes from sanction. If the church sanctions you, certifies you, you are a saint. And without the arch-bishop signing, who has made these fools saints?

And their fame was far and wide -- even from outside the country people started coming. Finally he decided to go and put these people right. He went into a boat, reached the small island. They were sitting under a beautiful tree, all three looking so happy. They were sitting naked, they had not even clothes. The archbishop went close to them. All the three touched his feet and said,

"Why you troubled yourself? You could have sent a message and we would have come to the church ourselves."

Now the archbishop felt confident; up to now he was feeling a little nervous: three saints, and he himself knows nothing except that he has reached in a religious-political hierarchy, on the top. But now he was confident, and he said to those three people,

"That is what is your religion?"

They said, "We don't know. Religion? Are there many religions?"

Those simple are asking a significant question. Only simple people can ask significant questions: Àre there many religions?"

They said, "We thought there is only one kind of religiousness. But you can teach us -- if you feel just being religious is not enough -- you can teach us. We are available. We are illiterate, ignorant people, so don't please feel offended by our answers."

The archbishop asked, "Okay, whatever your religion, what is your prayer? Certainly you must be Christian -- because in Russia at that time, there was no other religion -- you must be Christian. What is your prayer?"

They all looked at each other and they said, "You tell." The second said to the third: "You tell it." And the third said to the first three, "Better you tell it."

The archbishop was getting angry that: "What is this nonsense? You cannot tell your prayer?" "This is the reality is: we don't know how to pray and we don't know what prayer is, but we have invented our own prayer. Hearing that God is a trinity and we are also a trinity, so we have made a simple prayer for 1/08/07

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ourselves. Please don't feel offended. We pray whenever the moment feels like praying. In the early morning sun, when it is so beautiful on the lake, and the whole lake becomes gold, we feel like thanking existence. Our prayer is, `You are three, we are three, please have mercy on us. This is our prayer."

The archbishop said, "This is absolute nonsense: You are three, we are three, have mercy on us. Who has ever heard of such a prayer?"

Those poor people said, "We are ready to learn." So he gave them the official prayer. But it was a long prayer. By the time he ended, they said, "This is very difficult, because we have forgotten the beginning by the time you came to the end. You will have to repeat it. Please repeat it so we can remember the beginning."

He repeated it, just the beginning, but they said, "Please go on, because now we have forgotten the end."

Three times he repeated, then they could get hold of the prayer. They thanked the archbishop. He was very happy that he has put them right and now he can tell to people that, "Those are idiots and you are thinking them as saints."

He went back into his boat. Just in the middle of the river he saw something unimaginable: those naked idiots were coming running on the water! He could not believe his eyes. He had never believed even that Jesus had walked on water; he knew deep down that this is all nonsense. He had never told anybody. As far as his sermons were concerned, he was trying to prove that Jesus could do anything. But these idiots are walking on water, running on water and they caught hold of the boat and said,

"Please, just a moment. We have forgotten the prayer. Will you teach us again?" But this was enough for the archbishop. He touched the feet of those three idiots and said, "Your prayer is right, my was wrong. You just go and do your prayer. I unnecessarily interfered in your life; just forgive me. Seeing you walking on the water.... In fact, for the first time I have become a Christian. I had never believed that Jesus really walked on water.

"Religion is a very simple phenomenon. Theology has nothing to with religion. It makes things unnecessarily complex. Religion is a simple awareness of whatever you are doing, wherever you are. And when this awareness surrounds you always like a luminous aura you for the first time become aware of the universe -- its beauties, its music, its eternal song. And to me that is the religious experience. In religious experience you don't encounter a God. There is nobody there, just this pure existence. But it is all alive --

these flowers, these birds on the wing, these stars -- everything is alive, but because you are asleep you cannot experience the aliveness that surrounds you.

And we are not islands. No man is an island. We are part of this whole living, infinite continent. Those flowers are part of us just as we are part of them. Those faraway stars are within us as we are within the universe. That experience of unity, of at-onement, is liberation.

So my teaching is very simple: meditation is the key, becoming totally aware is the result. Experiencing oneness with the whole is the reward.

"You are three, we are three, have mercy on us."

This is my trinity: meditation, awareness, oneness.

Q: DO YOU THINK THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE IN THE WORLD WHO NEED THAT MESSAGE OR

WANT THAT MESSAGE AND WHO WILL COME HERE TO RAJNEESHPURAM? AND BECAUSE OF

THAT WILL RAJNEESHPURAM GROW?

A: Everybody needs that message. Everybody has the birthright to experience existence, its ecstasy.But your question has many questions in it. The first part, I say everybody needs it. The second part you are asking, "Will all of them come to Rajneeshpuram?"

No. Only very few will come. Because although everybody needs it -- but to know that you need it a certain intelligence is needed -- a certain youthfulness is needed, a certain daring, courage, adventurousness is needed, which is missing. So only very few people will arrive here, although it was everybody's need. But I have my communes all over the world; almost in every country I have my people. There are near about one million sannyasins all around the earth. In every language, in every country, even in places where it is almost impossible, I have my people, even in Soviet Russia. Just the other day I received a Soviet Communist magazine writing against me -- everything just rubbish and false. But I was happy: that shows that the communists and the government is now getting frightened, the same way as they are getting frightened here in Oregon. And in Russia I don't have many sannyasins, but enough. They are underground.

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In fact, I have taken the monopoly of the red color even from communists. They meet in basements. They cannot publish my books. They write with their hand or type or do something to message so that it can reach to other people. Whatsoever books they have been able to smuggle in are mostly caught by the government.

KGB is against them. Many of my sannyasins have been persecuted. Although they cannot prove they are sannyasins, but still, in Russia there is no need for any proof, just suspicion is enough.

They have published names of twenty people in the newspaper, that these seems to be my contacts in Soviet Union -- beware of them. That is enough to persecute those people by the police, by the people. They may lose their jobs; they may lose their facilities; they may be thrown to Siberia. But you will be surprised that they are more excited about me and my work than anywhere else, because for sixty years Russia has forgotten what youthfulness means. It has forgotten that being a revolutionary is something part of being young. Now in Russia you cannot be revolutionary.

Q: WILL RAJNEESHISM BECOME A MAJOR RELIGION IN THE WORLD IN TERMS OF

NUMBERS?

A: No, it will never. Because we don't convert anybody. Conversion is insulting the other person, his intelligence, his integrity. When you convert a person you are saying you are wrong and I am right, you don't know, I know, so just follow me. No, I cannot allow my people to say to anybody.... Just my people have to live their life, if somebody becomes interested on his own, he is welcome. But we are not missionaries, so naturally our numbers cannot grow and we don't believe in the politics of numbers; that is a political game. But anybody who has a desire to explore into the reality of one's own being is bound, sooner or later, to move towards me. But the well remains in its own place, the thirsty come to it. The well does not go and propagate that, "Come to me, because only I have the right kind of water. Don't go to other wells."

And that is their problem, where they want to go.

They will not be prevented from drinking the wine that is I am offering here. They will be our respected guests.

But I cannot humiliate anybody by saying to him that we have the only true message. That I am the only begotten Son of God. That I am the only prophet of God. That holy Koran is the last message. That you need not think else, just read the Bible, everything is there. That Vedas contain all knowledge. It is enough.

More than that is dangerous.

That's what Hindus say.I don't belong to these people and their company: I am a totally different person, I respect everybody. If somebody chooses to be wrong, it is his freedom. It may be wrong according to me, but to him it looks to be the right, let him go on his way. If it is right, good; he is blessed. If he is wrong, sooner or later he will have to come back.

Q: WHY ARE YOU GIVING INTERVIEWS NOW TO PEOPLE LIKE MYSELF?

A: I enjoy talking.

Q: WHY SPEAK TO A PERSON LIKE MYSELF, WHO IS NOT A BELIEVER IN WHAT MANY OTHER

PEOPLE WOULD LIKE TO HEAR FROM YOU?

A: Just because you can send the message to many people. I am going to talk to every journalist around the world. I'm going to use every media just to announce to the people that if they are thirsty, we have the right drink for them. If they want to come, they are welcome. It is not to convert them, it is just to invite them. Truth only invites. Truth never converts. But the invitation is enough.

Q: WHY, WHY NOW? WHY NOT TWO MONTHS AGO, A YEAR AGO?

A: I am a man of absolute spontaneity. When I feel to be silent, then nobody can force me to speak.

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When I want to speak, nobody stop me from speaking. Whatever I want to say I never make any compromise whether it is going to be liked, disliked, respected, disrespected; these are not my considerations at all. I felt to be silent. For three and half years I enjoyed silence. Then one day suddenly I felt the time has come to sing the song again. I started speaking, but I cannot promise for tomorrow. I may be silent again.I am just a little crazy. I just go according to my whims and the people who have to live with me have to live with my whims.

Q: WHERE DO YOU LIVE AND WHAT DO YOU DO?

A: I don't do anything. I am not a doer.

Q: HOW DO YOU SPEND YOUR TIME? HOW DOES THE DAY PASS FOR YOU?

A: It passes so fast. But I enjoy it immensely. I must be sleeping almost ten hours every day -- eight hours in the night, two or three hours in the day -- because to me sleep is meditation. Three hours I enjoy my bathroom, one and half hour in the morning, one and half in the evening.

I have loved water from my very childhood because it is my understanding that life has arisen out of water. And now scientists are thinking on the same lines, that life must have arisen in water.Even every child in the mother's womb repeats the whole cycle of evolution: first he looks like a fish. Only later on he starts looking like a monkey. And between these two he passes almost all the phases that man has passed.

Even in his last stage he has a tail that falls before his birth and the place where the tail was attached is still with everybody. Those bones show that there was something attached to them which is missing. But the beginning is as a fish and for nine months the child continuously lives in sea water in mother's womb. The water in which the child floats has exactly the same components as the water in the sea.

That's why when a woman is pregnant she starts eating more salt, starts enjoying more salty things, because that water needs more salt. That baby needs more salt. She is unaware why she is doing that, but the child needs exactly the sea water. So I have enjoyed water from my very childhood. My birthplace had a beautiful river. I don't think of anybody in that place but once in a while, lying down in my tub, or in my swimming pool, I remember that beautiful river.

That's the only thing that I remember of my birthplace -- no teacher, no family, no friends -- my only friend, my only teacher, my only school was that river. And it has taught me immensely. Just to create an illusion, I have myself here a swimming pool of olympic size. I have beautiful bathrooms, nothing matters else matters to me much, but my sannyasins have made me two beautiful bathrooms. Two, because any moment if something goes wrong with one bathroom, then I am not going to miss my bath. And they have made my bathrooms with such love that they look like temples with all beautiful jacuzzis -- with hot water, normal cold water, ice cold water -- and I enjoy that; to me is meditation.In every act my meditation continues.

And then five hours I talk every day: two and half hours in the morning, two and half hour in the evening.

One and half hour goes to my food.One hour I go for driving that I have always enjoyed. I have my own road. My people love me so immensely, I don't think anybody has been loved and has so blessed. I don't know, I wonder why they love me? Because I don't have anything to offer to them. But it is a miracle and miracles happen. They have created a special road just for me. It is used just only one hour every day, twenty-three hours it has to rest -- no traffic. My people are so much concerned about my life that they don't want me to drive in traffic, because I am a terrific driver. And I don't believe in any rules -- I may drive right, I may drive left, I may drive in the middle -- so my poor people has to create a road just for me so I can drive anywhere, anyway, any speed whatsoever I want.And this is how my day passes. It passes so fast.

But I live very intensely every moment of it.

Q: WHY HAVEN'T YOUR PEOPLE, THE RAJNEESHEES WHO LIVE HERE, SHOWN MORE LOVE

AND COOPERATED WITH THEIR NEIGHBORS IN OREGON MORE?

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A: You have to ask them. And you have to ask the Oregonians... my people have not shown any hostility to anybody. My people are living in a place where the nearest neighbor is twenty miles away. We are so engrossed in our own life, who bothers about Oregonians? Who has time for it? Nobody even talks about it.

We even don't know whether we are in Oregon or in Afghanistan, we never, we are not interested in anything, just they are afraid. And that too is simply animal psychology.Oregon must have the most primitive people in America, still very much closer to animals than toman. Perhaps all the orangutans have come to Oregon.

Strangee are such a small minority and the governor keeps the army alert, that if any moment they are ordered, within three hours the army has to reach Rajneeshpuram. I cannot believe that such idiots you can choose as governors. What the army has to do here? If they want their army to learn meditation, we can invite them. There is no need to keep them alert -- we can make them alert for twenty-four hours! They should ask us and they can go on sending one battalion after another battalion and we will destroy their whole army by making them alert. Because a alert person cannot kill. Only sleeping people can destroy.We have no problem with Oregonians. We have no contact even. We are so self-sufficient. We don't need anything from them. We grow our food, we grow our vegetables, we have our milk products. We have everything that is our need. Even if the whole Oregon disappears completely, we will not know about it, unless somebody comes and informs us. We are not interested at all. And why a majority should be afraid of a small commune? They seem to be real cowards, impotents. Such a big majority, what can we do to them?

But there is a reason why they are hostile. It shows something about their psychology. They cannot believe that people can be so happy, and they cannot tolerate the laughter, the love, the rejoicing of my people. Jesus in the Bible says, "Blessed are those who mourn, because they shall be comforted, consoled in Paradise." I think Oregonians will have the first place. My people have no chance, they don't mourn. They can even console God, "Then please don't cry, don't weep, don't feel guilty that You created the world.

Forget whatsoever happened, happened. Don't go on having nightmares that You created Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, Josef Stalin, Genghis Khan, Tamerlane, Nadirshah those nightmares!"

If my people reach there first thing we have to do is to console God. And we have good people here who do the best massage courses anywhere, a beauty clinic. They all will do whatsoever they can do for poor God. But they don't want to be consoled, there is no need. This is the trouble: the basic trouble is the rich man hates the super-rich, the rich man is being hated by the poor.

These unhappy people, miserable people all around, we are just like an island and they can hear the laughter in the valley.For fifty years this place was dead. It was on sale and nobody will purchase it, because it is simply a desert.

But when our people saw it we took the challenge of the desert. It is not a small place -- it is one hundred twenty-six square miles, almost an independent country.

And we have taken the challenge and we are defeating the desert every day. The day I had come here there was only one house, dilapidated. Now there are beautiful houses for five thousand sannyasins, all centrally air-conditioned. No religious community has ever lived in a conditioned commune, monastery --

this is the first commune in the whole history of religion.They think in paradise there will be cool air; we don't bother about it, we create cool air. We don't want to be a burden on God or on Paradise -- what we can do, why we should pray for it?

And we can do everything. We have our own hospital, we have our own school, we have our own legal experts, we have our own veterinary surgeons, we have our own university, our own psychologists. My people are not like Jesus' twelve fools that he called his apostles. Any of my sannyasin would have defeated Jesus in discussion, an illiterate man, uneducated, a carpenter's son. That, too, is in suspicion. What does he know? These people are all graduates from universities -- they have doctorates and D.Litts. -- don't be deceived if they are working on the farm, they have Master's degrees.And it is very easy. A man you will find today teaching in the university as professor, and tomorrow you will find him working as a plumber.

here is no problem. There is no hierarchy. The plumber and the professor both are needed and my people are so educated that plumbers can teach in the university and professors can do the plumbing. We are not concerned with Oregon at all. It is just one-sided hostility.

Q: YOU SPEAK OF THE INDEPENDENCE OF YOUR COMMUNITY THAT IT IS, ITS

SELF-SUFFICIENCY... WHAT HAPPENS IF OREGON OR SOME OTHER FORCE PULLS THE PLUG

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AND SHUTS OFF THE ELECTRICITY? IS NOT THE COMMUNITY RUN BY ELECTRICITY FROM AN

OUTSIDE SOURCE?

A: We pay for it. We are not taking anything without paying. We pay for it and we have the right to have electricity on this land. This land is part of America. They cannot refuse.In fact, because of us, many of the businesses of the Oregonians have not gone bankrupt. Many factories who make houses were on the verge of going bankrupt, but because we allowed them to make our houses they survived.

We have been to Oregon a help. Every year thousands of sannyasins are coming here, spending money in Portland, in Madras, reaching here. We have made a place for visitors from all around the world, we have helped the economy of Oregon. Otherwise, have you ever heard anybody going to Oregon? People go to Egypt to see, people go to India, people go to Japan, people go to Nepal deep in the Himalayas, people go to Switzerland. But this is for the first time from every country people are coming to Oregon. Such big economic, financial gain for Oregonians and they are being simply being stupid. They should help us. We can make it the biggest place for visitors and they will be all benefited by it.

And they should come and see -- they don't come even. They should come and see that we have not destroyed their land, we have beautified it. We have made it an oasis. And if they have any intelligence their whole government should help us to make this big desert into a lush, green, beautiful place. And we are ready to put any kind of intelligence, labor, planning, everything....

But rather than helping us they are creating every kind of legal hindrances, although in every court we are defeating them.But still work is delayed and four hundred sannyasins are working in our legal department. This is unnecessary. And we are certain to win because we are not wrong on any point. And from every court.... Attorney General few days before declared six hundred rup, dollars' punishment because we had made few tents without permission. Tents don't need permission. But because we had made tents, winternized.... They were a unique, new thing. They should have really praised it that we have made a new kind of tent which can be used in winter, in snow, but they put a case. And he fined six hundred thousand dollars for making permanent structures without permission.I told my people, "You simply take a tent to the court and within the court you unfold it, fix it -- it takes ten minutes to fix -- then unfix it -- it makes ten minutes to roll it down and put in a bag -- and ask the court that is this a permanent structure?"

And that was enough argument and the court simply dismissed the case.Now this Attorney General should jump in some lake and commit suicide. Idiots. At least you should have come and seen what you are doing.

But Oregonians seems to be shameless. They don't have any sense of feeling.... Now they are in another litigation against the City that it is illegal. This is an unique city in the world: illegal city.There are cities or there are no cities, but have you ever heard of a illegal city? And particularly a city where no crime has happened in four years, no rape, no theft, no murder. And a city where no rape happens, no murder happens, no stealing happens is illegal. And the cities like New York, where every crime is happening every moment, are legal cities. People should have a little more humanity and they should start trying to understand strangers. We are strangers. Naturally they feel afraid; they don't know us. That is mankind's one of the weaknesses: it is always afraid of the new, afraid of the strange. We are strangers, but we don't want to remain strangers, that's why I'm talking to you and to every journalist that we are not coming into flying saucers from other planets.Our lifestyle may be different, but it is better than your lifestyle. You can come and see and compare. You can invite us to see your lifestyle, we can invite you to see our lifestyle. And we are absolutely certain that anybody that comes to see our lifestyle is going to praise it, because not a single person in misery, not a single beggar, not a single person on the street -- hungry, without clothes, without shelter -- and everybody is living equally without any communism being imposed on them.

Everybody is respected equally, it does not matter what is his work.They should come and see these smiling, laughing, dancing people and I don't think that they will not change their mind. But they don't come.And of course I cannot take my whole circus on the road. That is not possible because I cannot provide everywhere air-conditioned rooms for five thousand people. They should come and we have all facilities -- hotels for them to stay -- they will not miss anything. Anything that they can get in a five-star hotel they will get here in our hotel, which is not even one star! Because it is still time for us to make five-star hotel. Once we make five-star hotels, then your five-star hotels will be just junk.

They should come and see what our people are eating. How our people are healthy. Their water is pure, their food is pure, and everything is being made by us as far as possible.

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Even things like my watches. You may be thinking it is a Piaget -- you are wrong. The Piaget costs one quarter million dollars, this is made by my sannyasins and Piaget people should be ashamed. These are not diamonds. These are just real stones, authentic stones. But with stones we can create a quarter million dollar watch and we have not spent on it anything, almost nothing. These are stones, our people just have made my watches.They love me.They want to do everything for me, everything from my shoe to my head is made by my own people. And I love it, because it has a flavor, it contains their love.... If somebody asks me to sell this watch for one billion dollars, I am going to say no, not even for ten billion dollars. It is not for sale, because love is never for sale. It has no price, although it is a very cheap watch.

Q: DO ALL THE GUNS AND THE HELICOPTERS AND THE SENTRIES, DO THEY MAKE YOU

FEEL MORE SECURE?

A: There is no reason for me insecure. I have lived my life so totally, that if I die this very moment, I will not be losing anything because tomorrow is going to be simply the same story. So I don't need tomorrows. If they are given by existence, good; if not, I don't need them, I have fulfilled myself.Thirty-two years I have been living a posthumous life. In these thirty-two years, thirty-three years, if I was killed -- and many attempts have been made on my life.... But I have never felt insecure. There is no insecurity for me.

When I was a professor in the university, insurance people used to come to me that I should get insured.

I said, "That is stupid because I never feel any insecurity, why should I get insured." "No," they will say,

"For your children." I will say: "I am unmarried. Do you want me to produce children the way Jesus was produced? Just because for your insurance policy I have to produce children?"

I don't feel any insecurity. I am secure in my own inner reality because I know there that there is no death, that my innermost core is eternal, so no bullet can reach there. As far as my body is concerned, it is going to die any day, and there are only seven days in a week, so what is the choice? Monday is as good as Saturday. I don't think that Saturday will be better -- weekend -- or Monday will not be good because it is office day -- I don't have any office! I am always in the weekend, so there is no problem.

And these people are living with me now.

There was a time for thirty years I was traveling alone around India, not even a single person with me, facing hostile crowds of thousands of people. But I have never felt insecure for the simple reason because if I am saying the truth how long you can remain hostile?

Q: IS THE WATCHFUL EYE OF SECURITY HERE TO KEEP OUTSIDERS OUT OR TO KEEP

INSIDERS IN?

A: The purpose of the security is just that we don't want any nuisance. Inside there is no problem. But just two days before, two persons, who have been coming for ten days continuously, and because the police force -- which is part of the government police -- suspected them; they did not allow them in. But today somehow, they simply rushed their car.... The traffic policeman had to get to the side, because they were not going to stop, they were going full speed, and he was trying to stop them, but they were not going to stop.Now the policeman could have fired, but my people don't want to harm anybody, he simply stood by the side and informed because it was a morning meeting time.

They rushed into the temple, started screaming and shouting -- we enjoyed it -- there is no problem in it.

But the police took them away, they could not allow us to enjoy more.

But it is Oregon's police, we don't have anything to do with it. We don't have a jail here in the city. We don't have even a police station where we can keep somebody for few hours. They had been delivered to the Wasco County, that is their business, they should do whatsoever they want to do. But as far as we are concerned, we enjoyed the scene.

These people think they are Christians and they had come to save my people. They were saviors. Jesus had given such a rotten idea as to people that if I get this man I'm not going to hit on his one cheek, because he will offer another. Why waste time? I'm going to hit on both his cheeks and ask him, "Where is your third cheek? Give it to me."Jesus has given an ideology to people who have been for centuries behaving madly, neurotics, psychotics. They have murdered millions of people, burned thousands of women alive and 1/08/07

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they cannot even allow us if we don't want to be saved.Is it compulsory to be saved?

And particularly we are already saved. We have told them that, "We are already saved; you go and find out people somewhere who are not saved yet." But they had come to save us and shouting and screaming do you think is going to convince anybody? Yes, it will convince that you are simply nuts! So those guards are simply to keep nuisance out. Inside there is no problem at all and even there rarely it happens because these Oregonians are such cowards they don't even come to create nuisance. They just go on gossiping everywhere from the streets to their assembly, they go on talking about us.

Nobody knows exactly what we are, what we stand for. Just few days before there was one professor from California university on the television. He is thought to be an expert on cults. What kind of expert he is? He has never been here, so close, and he is talking about me, condemning me. He knows nothing about me, he knows nothing about this commune. I have sent a challenge to him that he can come and I am ready to discuss with him. How much religion he knows I would like to know. And what kind of expert he is that too I have to see. I know these experts, these professors, who just collect knowledge sitting in a library, that is not knowledge. This is all bullshit.

Q: ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAS GOTTEN SPECTACULAR COVERAGE FROM THE PRESS IS

THE SEXUAL ACTIVITIES OF RAJNEESHEES. WHAT KINDS OF SEXUAL PRACTICES ARE PEOPLE

ENCOURAGED TO PARTICIPATE IN?

A: Nobody is told to participate into any sexual practice. Sex is something natural; you need not learn about it. You don't have to go to a school to learn about sex. People know it already what to do and they do it.In fact, only here they are naturally free to do whatsoever they feel like doing. Everywhere else they are repressed. And because they are repressed by Christianity, by Hinduism, by Buddhism, by every kind of ideologies, their repression sooner or later expresses in some perverted way. Either they become homosexuals, lesbians, masturbators -- even making love to animals and this is the result of your religions.And because of all these perversions now a greater danger than nuclear weapons is facing humanity, that is AIDS. It is a religious disease. All the religions have contributed to it by enforcing celibacy on people.

Celibacy is unnatural. By forcing monks to live in one monastery and nuns to live into another and no way of man or women to meet each other. So what you expect? Homosexuality was absolutely predictable.

And out of homosexuality the ultimate is AIDS. Now that is spreading like wildfire and nobody seems to know what to do to prevent it.

Except in this commune, nothing is being done anywhere else in the world. All our sannyasins have gone through tests, immediately, because it is a question of the whole commune. If one person has it he can infect the whole commune and infection does not need actual sexual intercourse, just kissing. Saliva is a carrier.

A woman is crying and weeping and you console her. Now just think of Jesus' sentence again, "Blessed are those who will mourn." But if God tries to wash their tears and console them, he may get AIDS, because tears carry the virus. Any liquid coming out of your body has the possibility of carrying the disease. This is a strange disease. Who is responsible for it? And it is spreading and nobody knows what to do and nobody wants to do anything. But we have done, we have taken all the precautions.

All our sannyasins are tested, only two persons have been found.Those two persons are living in the most beautiful house that we have in the most scenic place, by the lake. All their necessities are provided --

the best we can do, better than we are doing for other sannyasins -- because those people are going to live not much, at the most, two years; that is maximum. In fact, they are not going to live more than six, eight months because there is no cure for it.But we have segregated them, separate, with all the facilities and whatever they need and with all respect because they are victims: victims of popes, victims of messiahs, victims of prophets.

Those poor people are suffering because of Moses and Jesus and Abraham, Mohammed and Buddha and anywhere else they will be condemned.So a problem has arisen around the world: nobody wants to be tested because who knows, he may be having the disease.

And if the society comes to know, then even your own family will not accept you inside the house. Just pack your luggage and get lost. All those people who had said they love you, all those people who had said they will sacrifice their life for you -- your wife, your children, your parents -- they will be all unanimous 1/08/07

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that you just get lost, you don't enter into the house.Your friends will turn into enemies. You will be thrown out of your job. You will become a sub-human person. You will lose all your dignity, all your respect, all your integrity and you will feel condemned.

So information is being prevented. If somebody is found with AIDS he bribes the physician that keep it to yourself. Don't tell anybody, otherwise before AIDS kills me, people will kill me. There are millions of people around the earth with the disease already, but governments are also repressing information because governments don't want to be condemned in the world that their country has AIDS, that means their country has homosexuality, lesbianism, sadism, that their country is a perverted, sexual land. No government wants that to be known. No religion wants that people will come to know how many AIDS sufferers are in the church or in the synagogue.

But this is a very dangerous thing, not to make everybody aware who is carrying the disease. Because that is the only way to prevent it.The person who is already sick cannot be saved, so make his life as beautiful as possible for few months he is going to live and don't condemn him.

Those two sannyasins are here, with no condemnation -- with all the respect of the community, with all that we can provide for them and they are resting, meditating -- if they can die in deep meditation then perhaps AIDS has not done any harm to them.

Perhaps it has proved a blessing in disguise. Six, eight months they will be just meditating by the side of the lake, under the trees, under the moon. They may not have got that much period just for meditation, completely free of all responsibility.Our effort is to change every misfortune into a blessing and we are grateful to those two people because they did not resist, did not protest that they did not want to be tested. In the outside world people are not willing to be tested. They are afraid of the test, if the test comes and proves them to have AIDS, they are gone.So in the outside world nothing is being said.

The pope is silent about AIDS and he is not a silent person. He is visiting right now South Africa, which has the biggest rate of population growth, which is already over-populated and suffering, starving.The government is of the white people and the white people are only fifteen percent. They are ruling over eighty-five percent black people. They have encroached every valuable thing that is in South Africa -- all gold mines, silver mines, diamond mines -- everything that is valuable is in the hands of the fifteen percent people. The eighty-five percent people are just existing like slaves. They don't have even voting power, only fifteen percent white people have the voting power.

And pope is visiting South Africa and teaching those poor South Africans, "Don't use birth control methods. Don't use abortion, this is against God and this is a great sin." They are dying -- overpopulated, hungry, starving -- and this Polack comes there to teach them against birth control.

And in South Africa AIDS is one of the major problems right now. More blacks have been found to suffer from AIDS than white people. Perhaps it has something to do with their different physiology -- they have a little different physiology -- or perhaps it has to do something with their climate.

Even three monkeys have been found in South Africa having AIDS. The scientists who have found these monkeys are all men so naturally they concluded that AIDS has arisen from monkeys. I could not believe --

when I received the information I said man is such male, masochistic, macho that the simple conclusion would have been that these three poor monkeys have received AIDS from man.

Because in Africa or in forest or in mountains where woman is not available, men are known to make love to animals and monkeys have the same physiology, so it is easier to make love to the monkeys than to any other animal. They are your cousins.

I say confidently that those monkeys have been given AIDS by man, not vice versa, because no wild animal has been know up to now having homosexuality. But in zoos it happens -- if the females are not available, then monkeys start becoming homosexual, then other animals start becoming homosexual.

Our monasteries are zoos. Our hostels of the universities and the colleges are zoos.

Don't allow man and woman together and you are going to create perversions in their minds and then those people will suffer because of your strange doctrines, strange ideas. Now this is simply lunatic to teach people celibacy. It is almost saying people that you control pissing. And if somebody starts that movement, you will not be amazed, you will find followers. But they will be all hypocrites -- they will piss somewhere, in some way -- but they will keep the hypocrisy that they never piss.

I have heard that two small children -- one a little elderly, six years, the other smaller, five years -- and few monks, Christian monks, were going on the street. The smaller boy asked,

"I am always puzzled: do you know, can you tell me something? What is the difference between a man and a monk?"

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The other one said, "I don't know exactly, but I have heard that the difference between man and monk is very small."

The little boy said, "Please explain to me what little difference."

"Little difference is that the monks use their ding-dong only for pissing."

The little boy said, "I don't understand."

The elder one said, "I don't understand either but this is what I have heard from elders. Boys who are older enough, perhaps they know. It is mysterious."

You cannot use your ding-dong only for pissing. No. The ding-dong is made for two things: ding and dong. Okay?

The Last Testament, Vol 2

Chapter #8

Chapter title: None

28 August 1985 pm in Jesus Grove

Archive code: 8508285

ShortTitle: LAST208

Audio:

Yes

Video:

Yes

Length: 130 mins

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only.]

MA PREM PRABHATI, AUTHOR, MUNICH, WEST GERMANY

BHAGWAN, THIS IS MA PREM PRABHATI FROM GERMANY, WHO IS WRITING A BOOK ON RAJNEESH THERAPY.

BHAGWAN:* Good. Start.

QUESTION:* FIRST OF ALL I WANT TO THANK YOU THAT I'M HERE, AND I'M GRATEFUL THAT

I CAN ASK YOU SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT RAJNEESH THERAPY BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW WHAT

IT IS AND I'M GOING TO WRITE THIS BOOK ABOUT IT.

I'D LIKE TO KNOW HOW RAJNEESH THERAPY DIFFERS FROM ALL THE FORMER THERAPIES

LIKE THE FREUDIAN PSYCHOANALYTIC APPROACH, THE HUMANISTIC AND THE GROWTH

GROUPS.

ANSWER:* It is basically and totally different from any other therapy that has existed. The most fundamental difference is that all those therapies are for sick people, those who are mentally not well. Those therapies make an effort to put them back to their normal life. All those therapies serve the old rotten society.

The society drives people mad, crazy, schizophrenic. They put them back into their normal average mind so they can function again into the old pattern where they had become incapable of functioning.

So all the therapies -- Freudian or Jungian or Adlerian -- their function is the same as in the past was the function of the priest. These are the priests of a sophisticated twentieth century. But their function is the same. It is against revolution, against change.

Rather than seeing the fact that.... Why this society goes on creating sick people? No animal is sick that way. Why human society goes on making schizophrenic people? Why there are so many rapes? Why there are so many people burdened with guilt? Why there are so many murders, suicides?

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And even though a person somehow manages to live normally, deep down nobody is normal. They all have nightmares, they all have fear, they all have greed, they all feel insecure.

These therapies are in the service of the society that drives people nuts.

My basic difference is that I am trying to help these people understand that they are not responsible for their mind sickness; they are victims. My function is not to make then normal so that they can go back to the church and back to the office and back to the same wife and back to the same world. No, my function is to give them a fresh individuality, a rebellious intelligence, a perception in which they can see that the society has manipulated them, exploited them, almost killed them.

This is the first part of my therapy: that the person should be made aware that it is the society that is sick, and he is only a victim.

Secondly, we have to make aware the person that he is victim because he is more intelligent than other people. Idiots don't go crazy. They have nothing to go crazy. To have a sick mind, first you need to have a mind. The normal and average people who are thought to be mentally healthy are really intellectually retarded. Even if they want to go mad they cannot. Madness needs some intelligence.

It is not a coincidence that all the great painters, poets, scientists, musicians -- people who have touched in some dimension the highest peak of intelligence -- most of them go mad. Most of them commit suicide.

Strange!

We have created really a strange world where idiots are normal and geniuses are abnormal, where idiots don't go mad, where geniuses go mad, suffer all kinds of mental torture. And the old therapies tries to put them back, to force them back to the ordinary retarded humanity.

Of course they are a minority, so naturally they think something is wrong with them. In millions of people who are retarded, to be intelligent is really unsafe. It is insecure. It is dangerous.

Where people are living below the mental age thirteen -- that is the mental age of the masses -- to have more intelligence than them is going to create trouble for you. They are the society, you are just an individual, helpless.

My effort is to make these people aware that their sickness is significant. They need not feel embarrassed. They should really rejoice, because they have intelligence -- enough intelligence, more intelligence than the ordinary normal people. That's why they are having trouble. They cannot adjust with the society. They feel everywhere unfit. That's what gives people idea that something is wrong with them.

The reality is just the vice-versa. They are the right people, but they are in very small minority. And the majority is stupid but it is majority.

And your so-called therapists are simply serving the vested interests.

So my effort is to give you a confidence that your sickness is symbolic, that you don't have a retarded mind, that you should not feel bad about it. In fact, you should feel grateful to existence because you have raised questions which ordinary people don't raise. You have created problems in your life which ordinary people don't create. And because you were not fitting with the majority, the masses, the crowd, they denounced you as mad.

And the Freudians and the Jungians and the Adlerians -- they all accept that idea, that you are mad and you need treatment. And their whole treatment is bringing you down to the lowest denominator in society.

My effort is just the opposite: first to make you feel relaxed about your situation, make you recognize that the society is sick, not you, that the society needs a change, a revolution, not you.

If you are not fitting with the society, the reason is not that you are mad. The reason is that you have enough intelligence so you cannot fit with all these retarded people.

Secondly, which is even more important, my therapy helps you first to regain your confidence, your self-respect, the understanding that nothing is wrong with you. But this is only the groundwork. Then the real work starts.

Once you are free from all the ideas that the masses have given to you, the psychologists have given to you -- everybody around you has forced you to believe that something is wrong with you -- first we have to clean all that nonsense and make you self-respectful. Then begins the real work: meditation.

Therapy is only preparing the ground. It is not enough. It is just to undo what the society has done to you. Once it is undone, once you are unburdened, then begins the real work: the exploration into your own interiority.

So therapy according to me is only a groundwork for creating space and the urge to explore your reality.

All those therapists, psychoanalysts, psychiatrists -- they have nothing to do with meditation. They are not there to help you to grow. In fact, they are there to cut as many branches from you -- your height, your 1/08/07

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growth -- so you become similar to other pygmies.

And because you accept the idea of the common mass, you allow them to cut your intelligence, to destroy your questioning, to hinder any possibility of going deeper than the ordinary people.

My work is first to unburden you and then to give you the vision, the perception, that this is not the end.

Just not to be sick cannot be the end. Just not to be sick is not enough.

You have to be psychologically healthy, whole. And unless you come to self-realization, the work is unfinished.

Therapy stops at the point where you have become again normal, you have been dragged back. My work respects your sickness, because that reflects the whole society. You became victim of it because you were more vulnerable, more open, more available. So you have been wounded from every side. You were more innocent. And you were intelligent enough not to participate in superstitions, in idiotic ideologies. All this has been become your condemnation.

Religions used to send you to hell. Now they have become outdated. Nobody bothers much about hell.

In fact, nobody believes in it. Now you are being sent to the couch of the psychoanalyst, which is a constant torture for years and years. In fact, there is not a single human being who has been totally psychoanalyzed.

A strange kind of science you have!

It takes seven years, nine years, ten years -- still you are not fully analyzed. Still the problems are there.

Perhaps you have become more accepting of them, perhaps you have become aware not to express them amongst the society, not to behave in such a way that people think you are strange. Just they have taught you adjustment. And that takes years and thousands of dollars, just to be adjusted to idiots.

My effort is to give you back your individuality. And it is your individuality which has rebelled against the social norms. It is your individuality -- a part of it -- which refused to be destroyed.

My function is to discover your whole revolutionary individuality, your uniqueness. I am not here to make you a cog in the wheel of this big civilization and culture that millions of years we have been creating.

And we have ended in making the whole earth a madhouse.

There is a story by Khalil Gibran. One of his friend goes mad. He could not believe because that man was so intelligent, and he has been put into a madhouse. Gibran goes to meet him. He is feeling very sad and sorry for him.

He was sitting on a bench under a tree in the garden of that madhouse. Gibran approached him, wanted to show his sympathy. The man started laughing.

Gibran said, "So it seems you have really gone mad. I am showing sympathy, compassion, my friendship and you are laughing."

He said, "I have to laugh, because those people who are mad just because they are in the majority cannot convince me that I am mad. In fact, since I have been in the madhouse I am immensely happy, because I left the madhouse out and here I can live as sanely as I want. Nobody is to interfere.

"You should not feel sorry for me because I feel sorry for you. What the hell you are doing there outside in that great madhouse? Why don't you come here and live with me?"

Khalil Gibran was shocked, but a great question arose in his mind. Perhaps that man is right.

To me there is no perhaps. That man is right.

So my therapy is a search for finding your individuality, its uniqueness. And then, once you are freed from the idea that you are sick, there opens a new dimension that you can grow into being more conscious, and ultimately enlightened.

So I use your sickness for your ultimate health, wholeness. About that your therapists are completely unaware. They are unaware even what they are doing. They are simply serving the politicians, the religions, the vested interests. They are not helping you. They are part of the status quo.

My therapists are not part of status quo. My therapists are basically people who are helping you to get rid of all those ideas that people have forced into your mind, that something is wrong with you.

Once you are completely free of that garbage, meditation becomes simple, very spontaneous. Here you drop out of the rotten society and you are available to the whole existence. And once you start getting roots and centered, meditations are very easy. And they can lead you to the ultimate experience of life.

Those normal people never achieve to that experience. They don't have even intelligence to become sick. It is just like a dead man cannot fall sick. Or do you think a dead man can fall sick?

A dead man is always healthy. There is no way to make him sick. Even if you inject and you put poison in him, there is no way. He will remain perfectly healthy.

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is the tree, then intelligence is the flower -- even more fragile. More colorful, more alive, more expressive, more poetic -- but more fragile.

And enlightenment is the ultimate in fragileness. It is just like the fragrance: you cannot even catch hold of it. You can feel its presence, you can smell its existence, but there is no way to have it in your fist.

So my therapy is fundamentally different. Its purpose is different. Its approach is different.

The other therapies respect the society and condemn the poor individual. I respect the individual and I condemn the mob, because the mass of people has no soul in it. It is just a big crowd of almost dead people who don't know what life is and who will never know what life is.

One has to look into people like Vincent Van Gogh. The man who could produce such immensely significant paintings, why he went mad?

In my opinion he never went mad. But according to everybody who knew him, he was mad. He was mad because he never worked, he never got well educated. He was mad because his family was persistent that,

"You get educated." they wanted to make him a priest and he refused. And that job is respectable, that job is financially the best. It is powerful. And he refused, and he said, "I want to become a painter."

The family simply said that, "If you want to become a painter, you must be mad, because what you are going to gain out of your paintings? If you want to become a painter, then we have nothing to do with you.

You just leave us alone, don't bother us any more."

Hungry, without money... sometimes few friends helped, but who is going to help him for long? And once a friend who has helped him saw his paintings, stopped helping him because his paintings were un-understandable. They were as mysterious as existence itself.

But who was there to appreciate them?

His younger brother was very sad for him because he had a certain understanding about paintings. He used to work as a salesman of a big firm which was selling all kinds of art pieces, paintings included. He could understand a little bit. He had known the best paintings in the shop of his owner. He had seen the best sculptures. He had some sense and sensitivity.

So he used to send him just enough that he can eat two meals every day, and what Van Gogh was doing, that out of seven days, four days he will eat and three days he will save the money to purchase canvases, colors. So only alternate days he was eating.

Naturally, anybody will think this man is mad. He is starving but he continues to paint. And he is certainly insane because he could not sell a single painting in his whole life. Nobody was ready to give a single cent.

His brother, that younger brother who was supporting him, was very much sad that he cannot have even the consolation that somebody purchased a painting. At least somebody came and appreciated. So he asked a friend, gave him money and told him that, "You go to Van Gogh and purchase a painting from him. I want to give my brother a little bit of consolation that at least there is one man who understands and is ready to pay."

The man came. He had no sense about art. He said to Van Gogh that, "I would like to purchase a painting." Van Gogh could not believe. Tears came to his eyes. He said, "You are welcome. Come inside and look. I have many paintings. Whichever you want you can take, and whatever you want to pay for it is more than enough. Just that you have come to purchase a painting is enough reward for me."

The man said, "I am not interested in paintings. You can give any, and here is the money."

You can understand the shock of the man. His tears dried. He could not believe. And it was a simple, logical corollary that he said, "You must have been sent by my brother. Take this money back. And even if you bring millions of dollars I am not going to sell any of the paintings to you. I will throw those paintings and give to beggars, but not to you. You just get out of the house."

The man could not believe. He said, "I am giving you money."

He said, "You are giving me money, but I can see that you don't have any perception, any idea, any sensitivity for art. And this must be my younger brother's work."

The man said, "This is strange that you figured it out so quickly. Yes, your brother has sent me and he has given the money. And he wanted to give you some consolation, but you are a strange man."

Now that man must think Van Gogh insane. He was not a very beautiful man, not even homely. He was a coal miner's son. He has been brought up in poverty, in sickness, and he was living almost starving. But his devotion to painting was religious.

I call this quality religiousness.

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a religious man. The way he painted, the way he sacrificed his life in colors, in canvases -- it is something that can only be called religious. There is no other word to explain it.

No woman ever loved him. Again, his brother tried a prostitute, gave her money and said, "Just once in a life he should have the satisfaction that some woman wanted him."

The prostitute was willing. There was no question; it was a simple business. She said, "You can send.

You give me money in advance and you can send your brother."

He tried to explain to the prostitute that, "My brother has never known any woman because no woman will love him. He is not beautiful. Please try to help him, that he forgets that he is ugly, that he forgets that nobody loves him."

The woman said, "You don't worry. This is our profession. It is not a question of telling to us. I know my profession perfectly well; you just send your brother."

Vincent Van Gogh was told by his brother that, "One woman has approached me. She is very shy. She loves you but she cannot say it to you. She sees you painting on the beach, in the forest. She loves your paintings, she loves you even more."

Van Gogh could not believe. He said, "Is it another trick? Why you are after me? Because it hurts. You had sent that man to purchase. I understand your love for me, but you don't see how wounded I felt. That man said, `Give me anything. Anything will do. Just take this money. Don't waste my time."'

His brother said, "No, I have nothing to do with it. The woman approached me."

So Vincent Van Gogh went to the prostitute and of course as a professional she welcomed him. He could not believe -- all that welcome and warmth and love. He asked the woman, "Do you really love me?

Because as far as I know everybody says I am ugly. And I know it too because I can see in the mirror: I am ugly. So what is impressive to you?"

The woman just laughingly, playing with his earlobes, said that, "I love your ears. They are unique. I have seen many men -- " And it was true. He has very long ears. If he was born in India, just because of long ears Jainas would have accepted him as their teerthankara, because that is one of the qualification of a teerthankara, the Jaina prophet. His earlobes should touch the shoulder.

He would have been accepted by Buddhists as another Buddha -- the same condition: earlobes.

But he was born in a place where nobody will bother about his ears.

The woman could not find anything else to appreciate so she said, "You have unique ears." And that was true.

He said, "You like them?"

She said, "I like them very much."

He said, "Then wait. I will be coming just within half an hour." And he cut his both ears, packed them in a box, rushed with blood flowing all over him, and gave the ears to the woman.

He said, "Nobody has ever appreciated anything in me. You are the only one. Now these ears I present to you."

The woman was shocked. Certainly the man is insane. And immediately the neighborhood became aware that he is bleeding and he has cut his ears. They reported the police and he was forced into a mental asylum.

He lived there one year. And that one year he has painted his best paintings. And he was mad for the whole world: mad for the psychiatrist, the psychoanalyst, the therapist who were treating him.

If they had succeeded in treating him, he would be just a coal miner -- back to the society he belonged.

But they could not succeed. Fortunately, they could not succeed with Van Gogh. He went on painting the way he wanted. All his paintings were thought to be insane. And now each of his painting is millions of dollars.

If this man had come to my therapies, we would have made a Gautam Buddha out of him -- not only because of his ears but he had the intelligence, the sensitivity. Just he needed support, appreciation. Just he needed recognition, and immediately he would have become rooted, centered. And he had the capacity to grow as far as anybody can grow.

But his whole life is tragic. When he was thrown out of the mental asylum because they could not do anything, he remained the same.... He was becoming unnecessarily a burden on them. They had to purchase canvases, colors, paints, brushes, and that man was not changing a single bit. All their therapeutic work was useless.

Out of the madhouse, he committed suicide. He wrote in his last letter to his brother that, "I don't see that there is any more that I can do. I have painted whatever I wanted to paint. Particularly this one year in 1/08/07

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the madhouse has been of great significance. I always wanted to paint the sun as nobody has ever painted it, and I have succeeded.

"Now there is nothing else, so why unnecessarily suffer, starve, be condemned by everybody? It is better. I am an unfit. It is better to rest in death."

Now, this man was not mad. He was in a mad world. He did not belong to this world.

And I talked about Van Gogh because that is the case with all the artists, all the poets, all people of intelligence, creativity, art, dance, music, sculpture. That is the case all over the world.

My therapies will help them immensely. Freud cannot do anything for them. At the most he can reduce them so Vincent Van Gogh becomes a coal miner, Picasso becomes a clerk in a station. That is sanity.

These people who are thought to be insane.... I have been to many insane asylums. The people who are thought to be mad are just different from the masses, that's all. And they have more energy which needs expression. They cannot fit anywhere because they have a certain solid individuality and they persist to remain to be themselves.

They have a certain rebelliousness in them. Even if they are condemned by the whole world they want to remain to be themselves.

My therapies are to help the unfit people in the society to recognize that they are welcome in my commune. Here nobody can manage to be an unfit, because everybody is unfit. This is the society of unfit people, so to be unfit is just normal.

And everybody respects each other's individuality. If it does not suit to me that is my problem, but I am not going to dump it on the other person. It is not his problem, it is my problem. If I cannot understand his painting, that does not make him insane, it simply makes me that I don't have a sensitivity for paintings. If I cannot understand his music, that means I don't have musical ears.

Just the opposite is happening in the society. If you cannot understand his music, he is mad. And because you are the majority, the poor fellow starts feeling perhaps he is mad, because everybody else is agreeing on his madness. And once a man accepts the idea that he is mad, insane, below the normal, he has almost committed suicide.

So I have to drag these people back to life -- and not only back to life but to a higher life, to a better life, to a more intense life. They are capable of it; that's what has driven them mad in the first place.

So therapies are the groundwork, and then works meditation. Once a deep acceptance has come to you, then you can grow. You are nourished.

And that's why I wanted to create communes around the world, because even if a person goes through the therapies and then back to the society, they will disturb him. In fact, he needs a totally new society. He needs people around him who love him just for the sake of love, there is no other reason. They may not understand his paintings but they respect his creativity. They are not going to condemn him.

On the contrary, if they are interested they will learn how to appreciate painting, music, poetry. If I cannot understand your language, that does not mean you are mad. That simply means I don't know that language. And if I am interested, I should learn the language. But just the opposite is happening all over the world. If people cannot understand your language, you are mad. You have to be forced to forget your language. You have to be forced to learn their language. And this is very destructive.

I don't accept your therapists. Even Freud or Jung, Adler -- they are not completely psychoanalyzed, they themselves.

Freud was afraid his whole life. Many times his disciples whom he had analyzed wanted to analyze him.

He refused. He knew perfectly well that being analyzed will expose him. All his eccentric stupid dreams he will have to tell. Then who is going to accept him as the greatest psychoanalyst? He is just an ordinary man, as anybody else.

He will have to accept that he is afraid of death, so much so that even the mention of the word death used to give him a fit. He will become unconscious. He was very much afraid of ghosts. And he is the founder of psychoanalysis.

He needs to come here, wherever he is. He needs to go through the therapies available here. And he will not have anything to fear about, because we do not condemn anything.

If you have a nightmare, it is perfectly good. Human beings have nightmares.

If you have a sexual dream, it is just natural. You are only a victim of thousands of years of religious condemnation of sex.

I have been to aboriginal societies in India. Strange. Rarely a person says that he has dreams. In an aboriginal society they don't have dreams. Sigmund Freud will have completely freaked out, that there are 1/08/07

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people who don't have dreams. Because they don't repress anything, so there is nothing left to dream about.

They do whatsoever is natural.

For dreams to exist, you need repression as an absolute necessity. For example, if you want to have a dream about food, fast -- and you will have dreams about great delicious plates, Chinese restaurant. Your whole night will be just feast upon feast. But fast is absolutely necessary. If you don't fast, then you cannot dream of feast.

The same is true about everything.

If people have sexual freedom, nobody is going to dream about sex. For what? He knows the experience, he is free to have it as much as he wants. There is nothing hanging over in his head. But all the religions have repressed sex and filled people's dreams with sexuality.

Then comes a man like Freud who starts analyzing the dreams. It is such a vicious circle. You create the whole thing, then there are victims, then you need doctors, therapists, psychoanalysts, to interpret those dreams. And a dream is such a thing, you can interpret it in as many ways you want.

Every dream to Freud ultimately becomes a sexual dream. Whatever you dream does not matter; he will find out that it is sexual.

If you go with the same dream to Adler, he is bound to find out that it is will to power; it is ego, not sex.

If you go to Jung, it is neither ego nor sex. He will find some esoteric explanation. Perhaps in your past lifes, in some mythologies....

And it is such a stupid situation that nobody bothers about these psychoanalysts. A single dream in the hands of different psychologists, psychotherapists, starts having different color.

My reading is that Freud is sexually repressed, that's why he finds in every dream sex. That man is a poor victim of analysis.

Adler is a very egoistic person and wants to become as much powerful as possible. He projects his mind upon a poor person.

Jung himself is esoteric, mythological, believes in fictions. He projects his fictions upon you.

These three persons have destroyed many people's life. And their disciples are still doing the same all over the world.

My therapists are in a totally different trip. They have to clean your mind from all unnecessary ideas that have been imposed by the society, its psychoanalysts, its doctors, its so-called wise men. They want you to become again a simple, innocent child as you were born -- a rebirth.

That is the work of my therapy.

Once I have got the innocent child, then the work of therapy is finished. Then starts the work of meditation.

Then you are healthy, whole and ready to take any quantum leap. You are ready to go into the unknown.

In the East, meditation has existed but without any therapy. It was half.

You don't clean the ground and you start sowing the seeds. Your roses will be lost in the grass that will be growing there. First you have to remove all grass and all possibilities for grass to grow.

Therapy is missing in the Eastern approach. That's why enlightenment has happened only rarely, very rarely. Millions of people -- perhaps one becomes enlightened.

Just the opposite should be the case. In millions of people, perhaps one should miss, because enlightenment is just a natural phenomenon.

Without therapy, the East has missed much. Without meditation, the West has missed much.

I am bringing East and West together, because both separate are not going to create the whole man. Both together in an organic unity -- therapy plus meditation -- is equal to relation*. That is my formula.

Any other question?

Q:* YES, WE ALL SEEM TO BE A BIT STUCK ABOUT WHEN TO EXPRESS AND WHEN TO

WITNESS.

A:* There should be no problem about expressing and witnessing. You can do both together and you should do both together.

Q:* THAT'S DIFFICULT FOR (INAUDIBLE).

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A:* Just a little bit difficult in the beginning but immensely paying. And it is only a question of a little effort.

Otherwise, if you try to be a witness only, you will be repressing. What will happen to your expression?

And that repression has been the problem for the whole humanity. So now you will be using witnessing as a method to repress. The result will be the same as it has been out of all repression.

If you express and forget the witness, there is not going to be any growth of your consciousness.

Everybody is doing that.

No, you have to do both together. And they can be done both together.

For example, I am speaking to you. This is expression, but deep within me there is my witness watching me saying something to you, watching you, watching every expression on your face, in your eyes. And I don't see there is any contradiction.

The idea of contradiction has been created by cunning people. So it needs just a little effort. Try with very small things. For example, you are cleaning the floor. Now, it is not much of a great creative activity.

Why not you can witness too?

You are walking, a morning walk in the hills. Why can't you watch yourself walking? What is the problem? Walking is such a simple exercise that the body is doing it, you can remain centered inside and you can watch each step.

If you ever go to India, go to the place where Buddha became enlightened. Now there stands a temple in his memory, the bo tree under which he became enlightened -- although it is not the same but belongs to the same bo tree.

The bo trees have one thing very special: their roots grow from their branches. So there are bo trees which are thousands of year old. Perhaps the original has died, but his generations....

The original bo tree was burned by Hindus in India, but before it was burned, long before that, one of the emperors of India, Ashoka, has sent branches of the bo tree to all Buddhist countries. So when the bo tree was burned, a branch from Selum*, where the original bo tree's branch has become a big huge tree, a branch was brought from there. So in a way it is the same tree, the same juice.

And just by the side of the tree is a small path. That was Buddha's way of meditating: walking one hour

-- small stones are there indicating where his feet must have touched -- walking continuously for one hour with full awareness, then one hour sitting under the tree doing nothing, simply watching whatever is happening inside.

A thought moves on the screen of the mind, a feeling comes. Or a bird suddenly starts singing and the sound comes to you. Or the wind blows and in the tree creates its music, its whisper. Anything that is happening around you, outside or inside, you have just to be a witness.

He had chosen both. Witness when you are not doing anything is simple. But once you know the taste of witness, then you can start doing small things like walking. There is no need to get lost into that activity.

Then you can go to more complex activities: painting or playing on a guitar or dancing.

Then any activity can be made, and you will be immensely surprised that all the activities are same.

Whether you are washing the floor, walking or playing music, the basic methodology is the same, that you remain a witness at the same time.

The witness need not be lost into activity. And once you know that the witness is totally a watcher upon the hills and every activity is there in the valley, far far away from you, then no activity touches you.

Then your activities start changing their nature, their quality, because a witness brings a radical change in you.

You cannot kill. Your witness will not allow you to do that. You cannot be jealous. Before the fire of your witnessing, all jealousies, greed, anger, hatred will be simply burned.

According to me, whatsoever witnessing allows you to do is good. That is my criterion of good. And whatsoever your witness destroys and does not allow you is bad.

So basically, reduced to the simple formula, there is no need to create a great theology of what is right and what is wrong and what is moral and what is immoral. I give you a simple key, a master key: just witness your activity. If it is not good, it will fall on its own accord. The witness will not allow it to happen.

Not that it will interfere, not that it will stop it. No, just its presence is enough. Anything wrong is impossible. And whatever is possible is right.

So I don't give you detailed disciplines that, "Do this, don't do this," because something may be moral in 1/08/07

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one situation and immoral in another situation. Something may be good today, may not be good tomorrow.

Life is continuously; it is a flux. Who knows what turn the river of life will take tomorrow?

So I don't give you any detailed discipline because every detailed discipline has made man a slave. He has to follow a certain doctrine knowing perfectly well that it is against his consciousness, against his intelligence, against the situation -- but what to do? It is the doctrine that he has taken a vow to follow.

My sannyasins don't have any discipline, no law to follow anything. Just they have to be witnesses and then they are free. Their witnessing will decide what is right and what is wrong.

And once you are a witness you cannot do the wrong. It is just not in the nature of witnessing. So a simple formula of witnessing changes your whole life, your whole perspective. Your way of seeing at things, doings, actions -- everything will be changed without any effort to change them. And that is where beauty lies.

If somebody tries like.... Mahatma Gandhi was continuously trying to be nonviolent. I wrote him a letter

-- I was too young -- that, "Your very effort of continuously trying to be nonviolent shows one thing: that you are a violent man. Otherwise why you are making that effort?"

If somebody is continuously making an effort not to steal, what will be the conclusion? That man is a thief. He is trying hard not to do it, but the desire to do it is there. And the more he is trying not to do it means the desire is not weak; it is very strong. That's why stronger effort is needed to repress it.

All your saints have been doing that: forcing themselves to be celibate, making all efforts, strenuously doing everything that other idiots have told them.

For example, in India all the saints will tell you that if you remain... want to remain a celibate, then take a cold bath before the sunrise. Food... if you can live only on milk, then you will be more successful in your celibacy. Sleep as little as possible.

Now, all these three things are dangerous.

I was talking to one of the so-called saints -- he had become world famous -- Swami Shivananda of Rishikesh, India. He has followers around the world, and these were his teachings.

And I asked him -- because he had been a medical doctor before he became a Hindu monk and renounced the world -- I asked him, "Do you realize what you are teaching? Because a cold bath makes a man more sexual. Have a good ice-cold bath and after that you would like to make love.

"Just living on milk, you will be more sexual than ever because it is only the man in the whole kingdom of animals who drinks milk his whole life. Other animals drink milk only in their childhood for few months, maybe few years. But you will not find a bull milking a cow. There is no need.

"So for the first thing," I told him that, "you are teaching something unnatural. A child needs food: liquid, easily digestible. Because he is not doing anything, so he has to live on milk. And milk is almost fulfilling all his needs. It is wholesome food.

"But the moment he starts getting a little bigger and is capable of eating solid things and able to digest them, then slowly milk should disappear out of his food. It is dangerous because it is unnatural, one thing. It is dangerous because a human child needs the milk of a human mother, because that is what he needs.

"Drinking the milk from a cow will give you the sexuality of a bull, because that cow was never made for you."

And I said to him, "You are a medical man, you can understand that it was not made for man, it was made for the bull -- and it will make you a bull. And celibacy will become more difficult.

"Then you suggest sleep as less as possible. What is the fear of sleep? The fear is because you are repressing sex, in sleep the dreams will be there. They will be sexual. So reduce the sleep. But reducing the sleep means the man will find the whole day dozing. That's what the saints... you will find everywhere in India. The whole day. This is a strange kind of spirituality."

But once you get caught into any idea which is unnatural, and if it has been traditionally there for thousands of years you never inquire.

Why so many people are sexually repressed? And what their sexual repression is doing to them? It is making them perverts, making them homosexuals, making them make love to the animals.

All kinds of perversities have ended into the disease AIDS. I call AIDS a religious disease; religions are responsible for it. And every government should make a law against celibacy, that anybody trying to be celibate should be immediately imprisoned -- and imprisoned with women. Otherwise the jail is also a monastery. Women are separate, men are separate. So what monastery does the jail does, the army does.

Hostels, universities....

When I became a teacher in the university, the first thing I did -- because as I entered into the class I saw 1/08/07

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the girls sitting on this corner, four, five rows just empty in front of me, and boys are sitting on the other corner -- I said, "Whom I am going to teach -- these tables and chairs? And what kind of nonsense is this?

Who told you to sit like this? Just get mixed and be in front of me."

They hesitated. They have never heard a teacher to tell them to get mixed. I said, "You get mixed immediately. Otherwise I am going to report to the vice chancellor that something absolutely unnatural, unpsychological, is happening.

Slowly, hesita -- ... I said, "Don't hesitate! Just move and get mixed. And every day in my class you cannot sit separately. And I don't mind if you try to touch the girl or the girl tries to pull your shirt.

Whatever is natural is accepted by me.

"So I don't want you to sit there frozen, shrunken. That is not going to happen in my class. Enjoy being together. I know you have been throwing slips, stones, letters. There is no need. Just sit by your side, give the letter to the girl -- or whatever you want to do -- because, in fact, you are all sexually mature. You should do something. And you are just studying philosophy. You are absolutely insane. This is the time to study philosophy? This is the time to go out and make love. Philosophy in the old age when you cannot do anything else -- you can study philosophy then."

They all were so much afraid. Slowly, slowly they got relaxed, but other classes started feeling jealous of them. Other professors started reporting to the vice chancellor that, "This man is dangerous. He is allowing boys and girls doing things which we all have been prohibiting. Rather than stopping them getting into each other's contact, he is helping them. He says, Ìf you don't know how to write a love letter, come to me. I will teach you. Philosophy is secondary. It is not much. We will finish it in six months the two years'

course. The remaining one year and six months, enjoy, dance, sing. Don't be worried."'

The vice chancellor finally had to call me, and he said, "I have heard all these things. What do you say?"

I said, "You must have been a student in the university."

He said, "Yes. I have been. Otherwise how I can be the vice chancellor?"

I said, "Then just go a little back and remember those days when girls were sitting far away and you were sitting far away. What was going in your mind?"

He said, "You seem to be a strange fellow. I have asked you to come because I want to inquire about something."

I said, "That we'll take later on. First answer my question and be sincere. Otherwise I give you an open challenge tomorrow before the whole university, all the professors, all the students. We can discuss about the thing and let them vote."

He said, "Don't get excited. Perhaps you are right. I remember... I am now an old man -- and I hope that you will not say this to anybody -- I was thinking of the girls. I was not listening to the professor. Nobody was listening to the professor. The girls were throwing chits, we were throwing chits, letters being exchanged."

Then I said, "Can I go?"

He said, "Of course. You simply go and do whatsoever you want. I won't want a public encounter with you. I know you will win in it. You are right, but I am a poor fellow. I have to look about my post. If I start doing such a thing the government will throw me out of this vice chancellorship."

I said, "I am not interested in your vice chancellorship. You remain vice chancellor, but remember: never again call me. Because there will come many complaints, but I make it clear to you right now that every time I will be right."

He said, "I have understood."

Then students -- boys and girls who were not students of my subject -- started asking me, "Can we also come?"

I said, "Philosophy has never been so juicy. Come! Anybody is welcome. I never take attendance. Just every month when the attendance register has to go back, I just go by the way -- absent, present, absent, present -- just I remember that everybody gets more than seventy-five percent present so they go to examination. I don't bother. So you can come."

My classes were overpopulated. People were sitting in the windows. But they were really expected to be in some other class.

Then complaints again, and the vice chancellor said, "Don't bring any complaint about that man. It is your problem if people are not coming to your class. What can I do? What he can do if they prefer? And they are not students of philosophy, but they don't want to come to your history, your economics, your politics. What can I do? And that man has challenged me that, "Never again call me, otherwise you have to 1/08/07

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face a public encounter."

But so many complaints from every department that finally he had to come. He knew that it is better not to call me. He had to come to my class. He could not believe.

In philosophy very few students, because philosophy is not a paying subject. The class was overcrowded. There was not even space for him to enter in. I saw him standing in the door behind the students. I told the students, "Let the vice chancellor come in. Let him also enjoy the whole scene that is happening here."

He came in. He could not believe his eyes, that girls and boys all sitting together and so joyously listening to me. Not a single disturbance, because I have prevented all disturbances from the very root. Now the boy is sitting by his girlfriend; there is no need to throw a stone, throw a letter. There is no need.

He said, "I cannot believe that such a crowded class and there is pindrop silence."

I said, "There is bound to be because there is no repression. I have told the students when they want to go they need not ask my permission, they should simply go. When they want to come in, they should simply come. They need not ask my permission. It is none of my business whether they are here or not. I enjoy teaching. I will go on teaching. If you want to sit here, sit. Otherwise get lost. But nobody goes away."

The vice chancellor said, "This should happen to every class, but I am not a strong man like you. I cannot say to the government that this is the way it should be."

The whole society is trying to repress sexuality. And then perversion comes in, then perversion brings psychological problems.

My therapies are just to clean. Whatever perversions have entered in you have to be brought to their natural sources. They have to be changed into expressions, not repressions.

And it is a miracle to see. When all your repressed energy becomes expressive, you cannot believe that you had so much energy and you could do so much, that you can also be a creator. Right now the society has played a very ugly game upon human beings. It has turned them against themselves, as if there has been a teaching that, "I have to put my right hand against the left hand and I have to go on trying to win."

Who is going to win? It is my left hand, it is my right hand. They both belong to me. But one thing is certain. If I get involved into such a conflict, I will be split. That is what schizophrenia is. People's energies have been split against, so half of the person is against the other half. And they are fighting. Their whole life is wasted in fighting.

The same energy could have made this existence more beautiful, more creative, more relaxed, more enjoyable. There would have been more love, more laughter.

My therapeutic work is to undo everything that society has done to you. The moment you are completely freed from the society, that's what I mean by sannyas: that you have dropped that prison that you have been carrying all around yourself, that you are no more a caged bird -- although the cage was made of gold and there was much investment in it, and it was so beautiful, a piece of art. But it destroyed your freedom. It destroyed you.

My work consists to bring you out of your cages -- Hindu, Christian, Jew, communist, theist, atheist.

There are so many cages of all sizes and shapes. You can choose any cage; there is no problem.

Every shopkeeper who is selling cages is against me -- every, without exception -- for the simple reason because I am teaching my people that cages are not the places to live. The whole sky is yours. Just open your wings and try to reach to the stars.

The other therapies are doing just the opposite. You somehow are trying to get out of the cage. Perhaps a part of you is already out of the cage. That's what the society calls crazy, insane, and the work of the psychoanalyst is to force you back, to convince you with all his jargon that this is not right, you should not try to get out of the cage. The cage is your safety, security, your sanity. In the cage you are normal; outside of the cage you will become abnormal.

I want everybody to come out of the cage and live a life of absolute freedom. This life of freedom will make him capable to know one day his ultimate reality.

I am using for the first time therapies as groundwork for meditation. Also I am using for the first time meditations on the base of therapies, because to me a person who starts meditating without going through therapies will have tremendously hard time and perhaps will never reach to enlightenment. That is almost impossible. First he has to drop so many things. With all those things you cannot go on uphill to the Everest.

When Edmund Hillary* reached on the Everest, he has to throw everything. They had carried all kinds of facilities, but by the time he reached, even to carry a flask was too much because the air is so thin and the oxygen is so small, breathing becomes difficult, carrying even a small load -- just a flask of coffee or tea --

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even that he has to drop. When he reached on the top he was standing there alone. Even his overcoat he had to drop on the way. That was becoming too heavy.

The same is the situation about enlightenment. It is an Everest of consciousness and you will have to drop everything. You will have to unburden yourself.

Therapies help you to unburden and meditation teaches you how to go uphill. Both together make the whole relation.

Okay.

The Last Testament, Vol 2

Chapter #9

Chapter title: None

29 August 1985 pm in Jesus Grove

Archive code: 8508295

ShortTitle: LAST209

Audio:

Yes

Video:

Yes

Length: 114 mins

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

INTERVIEW WITH LESLIE PORTER, FREELANCER, VOGUE AND HOLLYWOOD REPORTER, USA Q: HOW ARE YOU?

A: I am always the same: just fine.

Q: BHAGWAN, HOW DO YOU THINK THE WORLD SEES YOU?

A: To me everything is very simple: I never do anything that is not spontaneous. I just live in the moment, no attachment with the past moment, no projection for the future moment. I am always here now.

These two words "here now" contain the whole existence and after Albert Einstein there are not even two words.

It is one reality, space and time are four dimensions of the same reality. Time has three dimensions, space has one dimension, here has one dimension, now has three dimensions. But within these two words, everything is included. Einstein has to make a new word, because to express exactly it is not good to use two words, that gives a sense of duality, so he invented spacio-time. That is a technical word. I have also made my own word: "nowhere". Just one word, not even a hyphen between now and here.

Q: IF, IN A FEW WORDS COULD YOU COMMENT ON THE FOLLOWING WORDS, OR JUST WITH

ONE WORD, WITH THE WORD THAT I AM GOING TO GIVE YOU. FOR EXAMPLE, IF I SAY, "LOVE", WHAT DOES LOVE SAY TO YOU?

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A: It means three things. Love can exist only as a physiological relationship, then we call it sex. And most of the people go on believing that that is love; that is only the beginning. The second is something deeper, psychological. That can be called love... what poets talk about, what musicians sing about... it has nothing to do with sex. It is just a magnetic attraction between two persons. Something transpires between two persons; they suddenly feel that they are made for each other. Something almost gives them the sense that without the other I am half, incomplete, with the other I'm complete. A sense of completion, that is the second quality... a sense of being entire, the whole circle.

The first is very momentary, very superficial. The second is very deep, but needs great sensitivity. It is not available to everybody. The first is available to everybody. It is available to even animals -- birds, trees

-- so there is nothing special in it as far as man is concerned. A man who has known love only as sex has remained below human dignity.

Humanity begins with the second. Only a few poets, a few musicians, dancers, few sculptors have sensed it... very few people around the world, in the whole history have lived it because it needs a tremendous courage to dissolve yourself with somebody else. A moment when the other is no more the other. A moment when you can feel a tremendous at-onement....

It happened in Ramakrishna's life. He was a man of immense sensitivity. They were passing the river Ganges in a boat going to the other side and just in the middle of the river he started shouting, "Don't beat me. Don't beat me." The people who were around him all were his disciples and nobody was beating him and tears were flowing from his eyes and they said, "What are you saying, nobody is beating you." But he was in a convulsion, as if somebody was hitting him hard. The disciples could not understand, he fell into the boat, almost unconscious. They reached to the other shore and what they say there, a man has been beaten to unconsciousness. A crowd had gathered there and the most significant thing was, that the man's clothes were torn, his back was having blood marks. They uncovered Ramakrishna's back and found the same marks and the same blood flowing out of it.

That is the height of the second quality of love, where you can feel such oneness that if the other is dying, you will feel like dying.

Everybody hankers for the second, but it needs a certain training in sensitivity. For example, a person who is violent in his life -- full of anger, jealousy, possessiveness -- will not be able to experience the second quality. And he will remain frustrated his whole life because what he wanted he could not get but nobody is responsible for it. He himself for it. He himself never prepared to receive something higher. You have to deserve it.

In the first love, there is no question of deserving, it is biological. You are already gifted because nature wants to continue reproducing, it has not left to you. Nature has not left many things to man. For example, breathing has not been left to you. You may forget, you may get involved into some work and forget breathing. In sleep you are bound to forget, then there is going to be no morning for you. So the nature has kept breathing in its own control.

Sex is the continuity of life, it cannot be left to you; it is in the hands of biology. But because it is in the hands of nature you feel a certain compulsion, a certain slavery and that's why sexual partners are continuously fighting. They are not aware why they are fighting, why they fight the man they love, the woman they love. The reason is that each feels deep down that the other is my trouble, my problem.

Jean Paul Sartre has a very significant statement, "The other is the hell."

But as far as sex is concerned, the other remains the other. The other disappears only in the second stage and I don't think even Jean Paul Sartre reached the second stage. He was a man of tremendous intelligence, but not of great sensitivity. They are different things: intelligence is of the head, sensitivity is of the heart.

And in fact our whole education is to sacrifice the heart for the head. So the people who get your Nobel prizes, none of them gets the Nobel Prize for the heart, they get the Nobel prizes for their head.

Your universities teach nothing about the heart, they only go on training and sharpening your head. For the head, the other is hell, for the heart, there is no other and that is heaven. So only very few poets and painters and that type of crazy people have know love.

But that love also is psychological and your mind is not something stable, it is one thing today, it is something else tomorrow. So with the change of the mind, with the change of your psychology -- which is continuously changing -- your love has to change continuously. That is a great problem.

It is not necessary that the person you love will also change in a synchonicity with you -- he may lag behind, he may go farther, he may stop moving -- all possibilities are there. And with his changing psychology a child may fall in love with another child... we call it childhood love... but as they grow old, 1/08/07

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that love because a beautiful memory; it has no significance.

A young person falls in love with another person. The child psychology is gone, its love is also gone. In fact, you will never get a more beautiful experience of friendship as you get it in your childhood, never again that joy of friendship, because as you become younger, friendship is no longer your need, your need becomes more and more sexual.

Only rarely a person who is young has a poetic sensibility but that sensibility also changes. In fact, the more delicate a phenomenon is, more possibility of change. Retarded people who remain below the age fourteen, as far as their mind is concerned, can remain faithful to their wife, to their husband their whole life. They have stopped growing when they were fourteen and at that very time their love has also stopped, has come to a full point, the terminus. Now they will go on repeating the same thing their whole life.

But more intelligent people will find it difficult, hence as man becomes more civilized, more intelligent, one cannot live with one woman, with one man forever. If he tries to do that, both become sad, both become bored, both become frustrated with each other, that is the point when the other starts becoming hell.

People are afraid of reaching to the second stage because the second stage is just like a breeze, it comes and goes. When it comes it fills you totally, it gives you so much contentment that you cannot think there is anything more than this and you cannot think that this can ever change. That's why lovers go on promising each other, but their promises are not going to be fulfilled, then they will feel guilty. Of course, when they had given the promise, it was not a lie, they were really, authentically feeling it. But it was the feeling of that moment.

After a time your psychology develops -- your maturity develops, you start loving new things, new people, your vision of beauty changes -- your attitude in all its dimensions goes on changing. It is almost impossible for the other person to change exactly with you. Neither it is possible for you to change exactly with the other person and that's where the whole society is living in a tremendous suffering.

We have forced people to live because they had promised something, they don't deny it, but what they can do, in that moment the promise was true and then everything changed. And now they don't feel anything for the other person, not only that they don't feel, they feel they are strangers. You can look at husbands and wives and inquire, "Do you know your wife? How long it has been that you have not seen into her eyes?

How long it has been that you have not given her a moment to see her or to listen to her?"

Perhaps years have passed -- it is one of the strangest things that husbands cannot remember the face of their wife with whom they have lived for thirty years. Just you ask them, "Close your eyes and try to remember your wife, her face," and everything goes vague. For thirty years they have not looked at her, they have really tried not to look at her. They were afraid to look at her -- there was one day when they wanted to look at her for twenty-four hours.

Psychological love is a changing phenomenon and unless humanity accepts its changeability, gracefully, we will never allow human beings to raise to second level, because those who raise to the second level suffer more. Poets suffer more. Farmers don't suffer that way, woodcutters don't suffer that way, fishermen don't suffer that way, painters suffer, musicians suffer because they go on changing. They need continuously something new. Now the other person cannot make it available and the other person has his own individuality, her own individuality. And they start growing farther and farther and farther away from each other. And the society goes on forcing them to live together because marriages are made in heaven.

Q: DO YOU DO ANY ART WORK?

A: My whole work is art! I don't do anything else except art work.

Q: DO YOU DREAM? AND WHAT KIND OF DREAMS DO YOU HAVE?

A: No. I cannot dream.

Q: I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF THERE'S ANOTHER ENLIGHTENMENT AFTER

ENLIGHTENMENT.

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A: No.

Q: AND IF YOU WERE TO GO ON VACATION WHERE WOULD YOU GO AND WHAT WOULD

YOU DO?

A: I can just kiss from here, you may be on another planet, that makes no difference. What people call kissing is so unhygienic, so ugly, mixing the saliva with each other, touching tongue, exploring each other's mouth with the tongue -- just that is not possible for me. There is no need, just seeing loving eyes is enough.

You have touched.

Physical touch is a very lower phenomenon. Just to see a person with love, with compassion, with friendship, with respect, is enough. Eyes can reach any distance. Silence can speak much which words cannot do.

In India when we salute each other we don't even shake hands, that is too physical, unhygienic too. No medicine or medical person can support it. We salute each other with both the hands folded and that has a spiritual significance. We are giving you the same respect as we give to God, that's the way people go in a temple, with folded hands. That's the way they respect their elders. The same respect is shown to the strangers. And two hands folded together represent what I was saying, the merger of two into one.

In the first love, which is sexual, kissing is part of it, but in the second love, which is psychological, kissing is not part of it. It is more an energy phenomenon than a material one.

Every body has an aura of energy, now it can be even photographed. In the East we have been talking about it for five thousand years, perhaps more ancient is the idea, but we had no way to prove it. Now there is a certain photography, Kirilian photography, developed in Soviet Union by a photographer who has made so sensitive plates that when he takes a picture your energy aura also comes into it. It differs person to person, for example, a person who has never known anything more than sex, his energy aura is just two inches around his body. And a person who has know something of the second love, his aura is almost six inches around his body.

And there is a third love of which I was just going to speak, which is spiritual, which is not even psychological, which is more like lovingness, rather than love -- there is no passionateness in it, it is more like fragrance than a flower. You can catch hold of the flower but you cannot catch hold of the fragrance. It is not like the flame of a candle, but the light of the flame.

That third stage of love, the person has almost twelve big aura around his whole body. People who know the third love can just sit silently together, their energies are meeting. You will think they are sitting not even close, like lovers sitting very close to each other, they may be sitting with a gap between them. They can allow to sit at least two feet gap is possible and yet their energies are touching. Their energies are kissing and that is a far bigger touch, not local. Kiss is a local touch.

They can touch each other's body totally without touching the physical body at all. And that love does not change, because it is not dependent on the beloved, on the object of love. It is not dependent on the changing mind, it is something concerned with your eternal being. You may change, your body will change, your mind will change, but your love cannot change, it remains the fragrance of your being. Only at that point two persons have truly met.

It rarely happens between lovers, very rarely, but it happens between masters and disciples very often.

That's why I say that the relationship between a master and a disciple is a love affair of the highest category.

And that is the goal that can fulfill. Those who have not known it have lived incompletely.

In that state, whatever you do is art. You cannot do otherwise -- the way you walk, the way you sit, the way you talk -- even just the gesture of your hand has something artistic to it, something creative in it.

That's why I say I don't paint, I don't compose music, I don't write poetry, but if you see a little deeply what I am doing with my disciples, they are my canvas. I'm painting living beings. They are my poetry, they are my sculpture. Continuously I'm trying to work so that they can be released from all bondage and they can taste freedom, love, beauty.

I don't paint on ordinary canvases and I don't write poetries on paper, but on living beings. And each of my sannyasin is my poetry. And each of my sannyasin will carry my gestures, my attitudes, my approaches and he will make it even richer because he is a living person. He may give it more polish, he may give it 1/08/07

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more beauty; he has to do it, that will be his gratitude towards the master. That will be his thankfulness.

So from the morning til night I am continuously creating but to see my creativity you need to be part of it. You cannot be just an spectator; you have to be insider, not an outsider, because it is so subtle and so delicate, so invisible that unless you enter into it, with open mind, without any prejudice, you will not be able to experience it. Just a little experience will open the door.

Q: IS THAT WHY YOU STARTED TALKING AGAIN?

A: That's true.

Q: AND WHAT HAPPENED WHEN YOU WEREN'T TALKING? DO YOU MISS NOT TALKING?

A: I was working in my silence.

Q: WHAT WERE YOU WORKING AT?

A: My people were sitting in silence with me.

I wanted to see how many people can understand my silence. I wanted those people to go away who are hanging around my words, because they are wasting their time; they should be somewhere else, this is not their place. But they had become enchanted with my words, my theories, but it was an intellectual approach.

So when I became silent, they went on hanging around for few days, then slowly they thought, "Now I'm not going to speak again, what is the point?" Silence they could not understand.

The moment I saw that all those people had left, I started speaking again. Now these are the people who remained for three and half years, not even asking, not even a single person asking me to speak. They were perfectly happy just by my presence.

It was on my own accord that I started speaking. If I had remained in silence for my whole remaining life, these were not the people to leave me. That's why I am speaking to them because these are my people.

Now my talk is heart-to-heart.

And they don't bother what I am saying, whether I am contradicting myself or not, it is none of their concern. They cannot be deceived by my words. They know me and knowing me is such a deeper relationship that who cares what I am saying.

Q: BHAGWAN, WHAT DO YOU THINK OF KHALIL GIBRAN'S SAYING, "WHEN YOU HAVE

SOLVED ALL THE MYSTERIES OF LIFE, YOU LONG FOR DEATH, FOR IT IS BUT ANOTHER

MYSTERY OF LIFE."

A: Three words one has to understand clearly. One is, "the known," the other is, "the unknown," and the third is, "the unknowable."

The known was one day unknown. The unknown will become one day known, but the unknowable was unknowable before, is unknowable now, will remain unknowable forever. Only unknowable it the mystery.

The science can deal with the known... With the unknown.... The science has no way even to conceive the unknowable. And that is where religion becomes significant. That is religion's are A: the unknowable. And all the religions in the past have betrayed. They started trying to make the unknowable known; that was their betrayal. They all started trying to prove God. Once God is proved by arguments, he's no more God.

Karl Marx used to say, that "I will believe in God only if you can put him in a test tube in the lab, dissect him, find out all the qualities, all the constituents; only then I will believe in him."

One of his followers, very significant philosopher in India, Anand Roy, who had participated in the Russian revolution, was a friend of Lenin -- close friend. I asked him, because he was continuously writing about Karl Marx, his philosophy, and he was of tremendous reasonable rationality. He could prove.

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I asked him just one thing, that, "In your book you write about Marx' statement that he will believe in God only if God is in a test tube observed by the scientists. I want to ask you, will that be God that scientists can dissect, can find out of what he is constituted of? That will be another matter; it won't be God."

But all the religions in the past have been trying to prove that which is unprovable. They have been trying to demystify existence, and I call it a betrayal.

Let science do its work. That is science' work to demystify existence. Anything that is not known has to be made known -- that's the whole scientific approach. We will not leave anything unknown in existence.

And it is possible to conceive one day perhaps we will have exhausted the unknown.

But what about the unknowable?

The scientist himself is unknowable. He knows everything. He does not know who is the knower. In fact, he denies the knower -- and that is so stupid that one of Indian scientists, Khorana , who got a Nobel prize, I asked him that, "You are a Nobel prize winner scientist. Have you ever bothered that you go on searching, discovering, new areas but who is the seeker and who is the searcher? Have you ever thought about yourself?"

He said, "I don't have time for that."

But I said, "This is strange, because whatsoever you can find cannot be more valuable than you, the finder. Whatever you can know, howsoever valuable it is, cannot be more valuable than the knower. It remains an object of knowledge.

"And you say you don't have time for yourself? This is not a scientific answer. This is trying just to avoid the subject. You cannot avoid it. At least I will not allow you to avoid it. You have to say something definite. You have to say whether you exist or not. If you exist, then what you are -- just matter? Or something more?"

He said, "You are putting me into trouble because if I say I am just matter, it simply does not feel right, because how matter can discover matter? How matter can know mysteries of matter? Matter has no consciousness, I can understand. So I have to accept that there is something more than matter. But please don't insist, because science is not willing to accept the knower. Science' whole approach is: unless something is experimented through scientific methods in a scientific lab, it cannot be accepted."

I said, "Naturally. Then the scientist will remain unknowable forever."

And that is the arena, the area of religion.

And this unknowability of consciousness, this mysterious phenomenon in you -- in everybody -- is the most precious thing.

Nobody can know it but everybody can taste it.

Nobody can reduce it into a theorem but everybody can dive deep into it, its bliss, its serenity, its silence, its tremendous ecstasy.

Nobody can explain it but everybody is capable of experiencing it.

One of the great philosophers of Europe, perhaps the best of this century, was Ludwig Wittgenstein, and he has a statement in his one of the rare books in the whole history of books. The name of the book is Tractatus Philosophicus. He never wrote treatises; he only writes maxims. One of the maxims in that strange book is that one should not speak about something which cannot be spoken of.

I wrote him a letter -- he was alive; now he is dead -- that, "The moment you say one should not speak about something which cannot be spoken of, you have already spoken. You have said something. You have described certain quality, that nothing can be said about it. That too is an attribute. And if this much you have spoken, then try a little harder. You have broken your rule yourself. You accept there are things which cannot be spoken of. Your statement certainly proves that you accept there are things which cannot be spoken of. Certainly there must be some way to know those things which cannot be spoken of. Otherwise, how you have come to that conclusion?"

I say there are things which cannot be explained, cannot be reduced in theories, theologies, philosophies, but which can become part of your experience, which can become the very light of your life, which can become the very center. It is not demystifying them, it is in fact entering into the mystery and becoming yourself a mystery.

That's why we have called saints in the East mystics. We have not called them saints. Saints is a Christian contribution to the world -- very ugly word. It comes from an original root sanction. A saint is one who has been sanctioned the certificate from the pope. This is stupid. The pope himself is not a saint, and he is issuing certificates -- posthumous certificates.

Joan of Arc was made a saint after three hundred years. One infallible pope burned the poor woman --

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who was a rare woman in the whole history of man -- burned her alive, declared that she is a witch. But people could see the ugliness of the whole thing. The woman was a genius -- so young, so beautiful, yet so courageous. She alone was fighting for the freedom of the country -- and she won. The whole country loved the woman, but that was the trouble. She became a competitor to the pope. She has to be destroyed.

She was burned alive, but in three hundred years the pope became condemned by people by and by, realizing the qualities of the woman. Her diaries were discovered. And she was such a beautiful, authentic, sincere human being that after three hundred years the other pope became afraid that if she is not given sanction and made a saint, she will create a division in Christianity. To avoid the division she was declared a saint.

In the East we don't use that word. We say these people mystics, and that exactly describes their world: the world of mystery.

They are not demystifying it. They don't give you any idea about it. They hold your hand and take you on the journey. They do not give you any proof; they give you eyes to see.

And that's the function of the Master: not to give you a philosophy -- just dead words, what you are going to do with them? The authentic Master will give you some taste of reality. He will hold your hand, he will take you into the unknown territories where alone you may be afraid to go in. But the trust of the man, the love for the man, will not allow you to escape.

Q: HAVE YOU TALKED TO THE POPE LATELY?

A: I have not talked to him but I have talked about him enough, and I don't think he will be ready to talk with me. Because I have been condemning him continuously and he knows about it. And I don't see anything that he is doing is right, so there is no meeting point either. Whatever I am doing is immoral in his eyes. What he is doing is criminal in my eyes.

Right now he is in South Africa where real problems -- he is not even touching them. Eighty-five percent people are black. It is their country. Fifteen percent white people are ruling over them. The country is very rich. It has diamond mines, it has gold mines, it has silver mines. It is really one of the richest land in the world. But the people are dying, starving. The people are the poorest because all those mines are captured by fifteen percent white people. So all the riches are under white people's power.

You will be surprised to know South Africa has the biggest army in the world. Those fifteen percent people need it; otherwise eighty-five percent people dying, and you are exploiting continuously their country, and all the fifteen percent white people are immensely rich. And you will be surprised to know that even in twentieth century eighty-five percent people don't have even voting right. Only fifteen percent white people vote. Naturally the question does not arise of any black people to be in power.

It is their country, it is their wealth, and they are continuously being shot dead, continuously being killed, burned.

Pope is not touching the real problem.

And those eighty-five percent people have the biggest birthrate in the whole world: three percent per year. They are already overpopulated and they are continuously overpopulating and becoming more and more poor. Because what they can inherit to their children? they don't have anything.

And pope is preaching to them that birth control is sin, that abortion is a great sin. The government is trying to introduce birth control, abortion. He is speaking against birth control, against abortion. He is going to be responsible for all the poverty that will happen. He will be responsible for all those starving, dying people.

And the real problems he is not touching, because that will disturb the vested interests: the white people.

So no question about freedom, no question about voting power, no question about white people leaving their country and going back to their own countries. Or even if they want to live there, my suggestion is --

because for three hundred years they have been there; their own countries -- they belong from different nations: Spanish, English, British, Dutch, from all over Europe -- their own countries are not going to accept them because their own countries are in trouble with population.

My suggestion is that fifteen percent land of South Africa should be given to white people and fifteen percent wealth of the country should be given to the white people, and eighty-five percent land and eighty-five percent riches should go to the black people. And the country should be divided.

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allowed even to enter the areas where white people live. So it is so simple.

I can understand the difficulty of the white people that they have not home; three hundred years is a long time, they cannot leave this country. Absolutely right, I accept it, it seems to be perfectly human that they should be given place there, but they cannot have more than fifteen percent. They cannot have hundred percent land, hundred percent riches, and eighty-five percent people starving and dying.

And this idiot pope goes there and talks to those people. He's not telling the white people. The white people are already practicing birth control, the pill, the abortion, everything. He's not talking to the white people.

Q: HAVE YOU SENT SOMEONE THERE TO TALK TO THE PEOPLE?

A: No. Because I have tried for thirty years in India.

The poor people have many problems. One of the problems is, they are uneducated, illiterate. They cannot understand anything beyond their tradition, the tradition they have inherited. And their tradition is all superstition, stupid. For example, the idea that God gives you children. Now it is very difficult to make those people convinced -- for thirty years I been trying hard that God cannot be so stupid to give to many children to you that you cannot even give them food. God cannot be so unkind.

If he is a compassionate God as you call him, he should send each children with a piece of land, with some trees, some cows, something so they can live on it. He simply sends children naked, not even an underwear. And he goes on seeing your children dying. Out of ten children, nine children in India used to die; and this is your God.

And people like the pope were there. Mahatma Gandhi was there, who was against birth control, who was against abortion, who was against inoculation, because it is against nature. Without inoculation all little children were suffering from smallpox and dying. But inoculation they will not accept. Birth control is just beyond their idea. That means you are talking immorality. You are talking anti-religiousness.

Thirty years talking to them, all the rewards that I have got are stones thrown at me, shoes thrown at me, knives thrown at me, poison given me twice, that was the reward. And they will not go against their tradition.

Q: WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU WHEN YOU PHYSICALLY DIED FOR SEVEN HUNDRED YEARS, BETWEEN YOUR REBIRTH?

A: No, I never think of the future. No, I think only of the present.... And I want to make the present as intelligent for my people, as beautiful, as comfortable as possible. And I want my people to be as meditative... in the present -- future will take care itself. Intelligent people will find out a way. Who am I even to think about the future? That is a subtle strategy of dominating even when you are dead.

Just the idea of creating a successor means I will continue to dominate you through my successor. That's how dead are dominating the living -- Jesus, Moses, Buddha -- still are dominating people. This is ugly; dead dominating the living is simply unacceptable to me.

Buddha lived twenty-five centuries before. He knew nothing of electricity. He knew nothing of railway trains. He knew nothing of population growth. He knew nothing that their will be a time when people will be dying if they don't stop reproducing.

In Buddha's time the whole world's population was only two hundred million. I think Oregon's population must be two hundred million now. That was the whole population of the world.

Buddha had no idea that his country will be almost eight hundred thousand million, otherwise he would not have talked nonsense. But we cannot criticize him; whatever he did, whatever he said was relevant in his time. One thing he did wrong that he made a tradition, created laws and regulation for the future. That is to me dictatorial, not democratic.

Who am I for the future? Right now I am alive, you can argue against me, you can decide against me, you can doubt my idea, but when I am dead.... And the whole emphasis of all the religions is to believe, to have faith, so people go on believing and having faith in ideas which are simply out of date, which are dangerous to believe. For example, Buddha preached celibacy. Now celibacy is absolutely unnatural.

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Perhaps at the age of eighty-two he may have been celibate. In fact, what else you are going to do at the age of eighty-two?

Q: DO YOU HAVE A GIRL FRIEND?

A: I have many. (laughing) You are welcome; there is no trouble in it. I don't think anybody has as many girl friends as I have, thousands.

I am against celibacy. It may be good for an impotent person, it may do some good for him, at least a consolation that he is celibate. But, impotency is rare and impotency is a sickness. The impotent person has never done anything worthwhile. He has never created anything. He has not even been able to become a saint, which was the easiest thing for him to do.

Buddha, and others talking about celibacy, have created sexual perversion in the whole world. And now there are homosexuals and there are lesbians and there are people who are making love to the animals and there are all kinds of perversions. And for all these perversion who is responsible: these people who talked about celibacy.

When I said to the Indian masses that celibacy should be condemned as a crime, because it goes against nature. You can go to any medical college and you can go to any medical board and ask them, but such is the ignorance that even doctors try to be celibate, particularly in India where celibacy seems to be a great spiritual thing.

Even doctors, even they cannot understand that it is something natural to your physiology, your chemistry, your biology, and your body does not understand that you have taken a vow of celibacy. There is no way to convey the message to the body. The body will go on the same way. You may be Hindu, you may be Christian, you may be Mohammedan, you all will feel hungry. It doesn't make any difference; the body knows nothing about that you are a Mohammedan and this is the month of Ramjhan , the sacred month when one should not eat in the day. The body feels hungry.

There is no way to communicate the idea that a Mohammedan in the month of Ramjhan for whole month cannot eat in the day. He can eat only in the night. At least Mohammedanism allows to eat in the night, so people eat in the night as much as they can and they are eating early in the morning before sunrise again so that the whole day they don't feel hungry. And this is just disturbing people unnecessarily. Their whole night they could not sleep; they were just eating and eating and eating, preparing for the whole day, because in the day they will not be able.

But there is a religion, Jainism in India, in its sacred days, ten days per year, you have to fast. You cannot eat in the night, because according to Jainism, you cannot eat into night any day of the year. Eating in the night is sin. As the sun sets, the Jainas cannot eat. Not only that, those who are very orthodox they will not drink water.

It was such a trouble in my childhood because I was born in a Jaina family. That, in India it is so hot, and summer nights so hot, and you cannot even drink water. I simply refused. I said, "I am willing to go to hell. That will happen after death. There is time. I will do something, but right not I am going to drink. I don't want this night to suffer in hell."

In those ten days you cannot eat at all, for ten days continuously. And I know that in those ten days Jainas think only of food, nothing else. Day and night, their dreams are full of food.

You were asking about dreams. Jainas dreams in those ten days are full of food. Christian monks, Hindu monks, their dreams are full of sex. Whatever you repress in the day becomes your dream in the night. I don't repress anything, that's what there is no possibility of having a dream. My night is a dreamless silence.

Q: YOU DON'T MISS STRUGGLING OR PAIN OF A -- ANYTHING?

A: There is no... no problem. As far as I am concerned there is nothing that I miss and I never repress anything. For example, I don't think anybody would have said to you, that "You are welcome to be my girl friend." I don't think, but I don't repress anything; the idea came to me. Rather than seeing you in my dreams, I said it. I am finished with it. Now you cannot come in my dreams.

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disappear. And the disappearance of dreams is such a beautiful experience, the whole night such a joy, such a bliss.

In India, Mahatma Gandhi was doing exactly what the pope is doing now. He was telling people, that

"Go back." In his the spinning wheel is the last invention of humanity. After that whatever has happened has to be dropped. In fact, everything that has happened after. Spinning wheel must have been invented twenty thousand or thirty thousand years before. Every thing of any value has happened afterwards, but with his ideology spinning is the full stop and we have to back behind that stage.

These people don't understand at all that how can you manage eight hundred thousand million people just by spinning wheel. If a person -- I have calculated -- spins eight hours a day, then he can cover his whole body for the whole year. He can have his bedsheet, his blanket, his pillow covers, but eight hours every day will be needed -- what about his wife, what about his children, what about his old parents, what about his sick mother?

Only he can manage for himself and what about food? What about other necessities of life? Just clothes are not enough, you cannot eat them. And if eight hours he is just spinning, when he is going to earn his bread? When he is going to earn enough money for his money dying by tuberculosis?

But Mahatma Gandhi has appeal because he is in tune with the tradition. I am saying something which goes against their tradition. Gandhi says to people, "You need not worry; God takes care, he is compassionate," and people are absolutely willing to accept the idea because that idea has been conditioned in their mind for thousands of years. And when I say, "There is no God and nobody is taking care of you, you have to take care yourself," it hurts them in two ways: first their traditional idea of God they are not willing to drop. Fear arises. Secondly, to accept responsibility of everything needs guts.

It is very easy to transfer to a father figure in the heaven that he will take care. Even if there is nobody does not matter, but you are consoled for the moment. And I am stirring your fear, your insecurity, your death and there is nobody to take care. It is all empty; you have to find your own way, there are not super-highways made for you by others that you have to simply walk on.

Truth is something like a bird flying in the sky, leaves no footprints behind him, so if one person reaches to truth you cannot follow him. He has not left any footprints in the sky. You can try to understand the man, you can try to imbibe his vibe. You can sit in silence with the man and let something transpire in silence.

You can love the man, you can be open to the man so his love can flow towards you. Perhaps in these mysterious ways he may be able to take you by the hand into the unknown. Otherwise there is no road, he cannot say, "Just go five miles right, then turn to the left, and you have arrived."

It is not that easy.

Trying thirty years with Indians I decided that it is just futile. I dropped the whole idea. I started working only for those who are capable to understand me. In 1970 I stopped traveling in India. For thirty years I have been traveling continuously. In 1970 I stopped traveling and began the movement of sannyas.

Q: AND FOUR YEARS AGO TODAY YOU ARRIVED ON THIS RANCH, AUGUST 29TH....

A: Four years ago I arrived here.... In four years we have made this desert an oasis.

Just go on coming and every time you will find a great change continuously happening. When we had come there was only one house here. That too dilapidated. Now we have houses for five thousand sannyasins, fully equipped with...

Q: AIR-CONDITIONING....

A: ... Air-conditioning, everything. And this is against the government, against the people of Oregon, against all kinds of allegations, cases. We don't bother. We go on fighting in courts and we go on doing what we want to do. And we know finally we are going to win and we are going to make this one hundred square miles a lush, green place, a place where tourists all over the world will be coming to see because it will be so full of laughter and so full of love.

Q: WELL YOU HAVE EIGHTY-ONE THOUSAND ACRES, HERE....

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A: Eighty-four thousand acres. Nobody had that much land ever.

Q: SO YOU'RE RICH AND FAMOUS.

A: We are. And we are going to become richer and richer and more famous because of us now Oregon is famous all over the world.

This small commune, Rajneeshpuram, is the world capitol. We are going to make it a world capitol.

Every country is represented here, every race, every religion is represented here.

Q: LAWYERS, DOCTORS....

A: And every profession, every kind of people and all educated, all intelligent, so there is no need for me to think for their future, just I have to make their present as beautiful and as intense and total so out of that totality and intensity their future will be born.

Q: HAVE YOU BEEN TO THE UNIVERSITY, YOU KNOW, RIMU, THAT PLACE DOWN THE ROAD?

A: No. I never go any where. People listen to me and if they find something is valuable, they take it to the university, they take it to the fields, to the commune, its work. But I never direct anybody in anyway. I never give any instructions.

I am available with all my vision. If somebody feels that it triggers something in you, do it. But you are doing your thing, not my thing. You are doing it because it has triggered your heart, you are following your heart, I am just accidental.

You are not to believe in me, you have to be just available to me as I am available to you. And all these people here are not my followers. As far as I am concerned, they are all my friends, my lovers, my fellow travelers. So whatsoever they can take and materialize they go on doing it, they are doing beautifully. I see the commune growing every day, becoming greener every day.

I will go on sharing my vision to my last breath. And now it is up to them. That's why I said my sannyasins are my poetries, my sannyasins are my music, my sannyasins are my paintings. My sannyasins are my future.

I need not bother about future, it is already here. It is all around the world, one million sannyasins around the world, hundreds of communes around the world. And every commune trying to be exactly maintaining the same standards, the same comfort, the same food, the same luxury, the same medical facilities.

I want my communes to become a model to the whole world. I don't want to argue with them, this is my argument. My commune is my argument that man can live so beautifully, so relaxedly, so creatively, why you cannot live? Just because you have not tried, just because you are clinging to old ideas which are no more workable.

You have to learn only one thing: that is to be contemporary. Very few people are contemporaries.

Somebody is living two thousand years before, somebody three thousand years before; strange world. Here you will not find contemporary people. And I can have appeal only to the contemporaries. So I stopped going to the graveyards and talking to the graves and disturbing the dead, what is the need? Let them rest in peace.

I have found my people and they are coming in hundreds every day. And my appeal is only for the intelligent, the unintelligent is simply, cannot have any communication with me. My things above his head.

But he has his popes and bishops and churches; he can go there.

My whole effort is to make the intelligent people so tremendously significant that they cannot be ignored anymore, that the world has to take notice of them, that the world has to learn that there is something that they are missing and these people are having. So my argument is very existential, rather than 1/08/07

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philosophically talking to them that I have done for thirty years -- it does not make any sense.

Now I am trying to produce an existential proof that whatever I am saying is realizable. You can come and see that it is not just an ideology just an utopia, that it can be effectual reality.

Okay.

The Last Testament, Vol 2

Chapter #10

Chapter title: None

30 August 1985 pm in Jesus Grove

Archive code: 8508305

ShortTitle: LAST210

Audio:

Yes

Video:

Yes

Length: 106 mins

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

INTERVIEW WITH JAMES CONAWAY, WASHINGTON POST, WASHINGTON, DC

ANSWER: Glad to meet you.

QUESTION: BHAGWAN, THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT OWNS A VAST AMOUNT OF LAND

IN THE WEST, ABOUT HALF OF THE WEST. SOME OF THIS LAND IS WITHIN YOUR DOMAIN HERE

ON THE RANCH. COULD YOU TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK OF THE POLICIES OF THE UNITED

STATES GOVERNMENT WITH REGARD TO LAND MANAGEMENT AND THE PEOPLE WHO USE

THEIR LAND HERE?

ANSWER: The philosophy of democracy is totally against the idea of government owning anything: land, schools, libraries, universities. That idea is basically communist, that the government should own everything, that no individual should be the owner. That is a very subtle psychology to destroy the individual. If an individual is taken away all his ownership, he becomes a beggar. At least in America government should not own any land. That is part of a democratic approach. There should be no kind of nationalization, on any level. All nationalization is communist.

Every individual should be free in every possible way from government rule, government domination.

The universities should not be owned, the schools, the colleges should not be owned. The government has no business in interfering into people's life, their development, their intelligence. Each university should have its own individuality. Each school should have its own individuality.

The question of owning in democracy does not arise. Individuals should be the owners of everything that exists. Government is simply a functioning body. It is not the master, it is the servant of the people. It should look that everything is going well, that no individual is being in any way exploited, that no individual is being enslaved, that no individual is being interfered with.

The function in democracy of the government is to protect the individual, his freedom, his ownership, his possibilities of growth, and to help him. The government should not become a partner, a competitor, in business, in land, in factories, in anything. Government is just a functional body like post office. Now, post 1/08/07

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office should start owning land and factories? Or the board that runs airplanes or railway lines? Government should not own anything because that ownership makes the politician too much powerful.

In Oregon almost half of the land is owned by the federal government. This is simply ugly, undemocratic. They wanted -- particularly the vice-president, Rockefeller, was interested -- to own the whole Oregon. And the federal government is angry with us because they were interested in this land, too.

And this is a big land, one hundred twenty-six square miles. But they were trying to give just a little bit of compensation and the owner was not ready. It was for sale for decades, and because we purchased it and gave the right price to it, the state government is angry, the federal government is angry. This is strange. It seems we are not living in America, we are in Soviet Union.

QUESTION: YOUR SENTIMENTS ARE SIMILAR TO SOME OF THE CONSERVATIVE RANCHERS

WHO LIVE AROUND HERE IN THE ABSTRACT, SINCE THEY ALSO FEEL THAT THE GOVERNMENT

SHOULDN'T OWN LAND AND SHOULD STAY OUT OF THE LIVES OF INDIVIDUALS. CONSIDERING

THAT AND THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE MADE THIS LAND HERE VERY PRODUCTIVE IN THE LAST

FOUR YEARS, WHY IS IT THAT SO MANY PEOPLE DISLIKE YOU?

ANSWER: There are thousand and one reasons. A man like me can only be disliked or liked, but cannot be ignored. Either you have to love me or you have to hate me, there is no third alternative. The people in Oregon, particularly the neighbors close to this land, have reasons to be against me. First, their animal nature. Every animal has a territorial imperative. We are strangers. The ordinary human mind always feels afraid of anything that is strange, unknown, unpredictable. We are not Christians. We don't believe in any religion. We don't believe in any God. We don't believe in any heaven and hell. Our basic approach is that this life can be paradise itself. Why bother about anything else? If there is a heaven, we will enjoy it too. If there is a hell, we will transform it too.

This land was just a desert when we came here. Only one single house, that too dilapidated. We have made it an oasis. We have created dams, we have created lakes, we are creating a small river, we have made it green. Now there are fully scientifically equipped houses for five thousand sannyasins, all centrally air-conditioned. Never before in history there has been such a commune, creative, intelligent, independent.

We have our own school, we have our own university, we have our own hospital. Naturally, they are very much jealous.

This land was there lying for fifty years and nobody cared about it, and suddenly we come from outer space and change the whole site. And we live comfortably, we live luxuriously, because I am the first religious man who respects luxury, who respects money. I am not in favor of poverty. I do not want a single individual to be poor. But I am not against capitalism.

I want capitalism to spread so much and create so much wealth that there is no need for anybody to be poor. I don't want to distribute poverty equally. I want so much abundance that there is no need for hoarding.

They have been here for hundreds of years, for generations, and they have not been able to create anything. And within four years we have created a place which can compete with any city. We have created a place just in four years, against all hostility, against every hindrance from the government. We are fighting so many law cases in the courts, but nothing is going to prevent us.

They are jealous, and jealousy turns into anger, turns into hostility. If they were a little intelligent they should have come. They won't come here. They should come and see what we have done. They can also do it. We are available to help them. We will welcome them. Whatever we are doing here, we are sufficient for our food, our vegetables, our fruits, our milk products. They can also be. They have better land than we have.

This was completely a desert, and we are bent upon to make it one of the most lush, green part of the world. They can learn it, but rather than coming here, rather than being friendly, they are in every way trying to destroy us. This is simple animal attitude. It is nothing strange. It is expected. But, they are being defeated in every court, and we are going to fight to the very end.

A very strange situation: we are fighting for the American constitution against the Americans, because all the Americans are doing things which are against the American constitution. And I have always had a respect for American constitution. That is the only constitution in the whole world who has some hope for humanity. And Americans are destroying it in every possible way.

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I had come here thinking that I am going in a country which is contemporary. It is not so. In India there was no problem, I knew it is an ancient, rotten, dead country. But America is so new, fresh, young. Just within three hundred years it has gotten rotten? It has forgotten completely for what it stands for?

It is disgusting to see that President Ronald Reagan tries to enforce prayer into schools. Then why you are against communism? Then why not hand over the whole country to Soviet Union? Why take unnecessary troubles? This is against the constitution of America.

Religion should not interfere in the state, the state should not interfere into religion. Trying to introduce prayer in every school, every educational institution, colleges, universities, is a tremendous interference with freedom.

Just few days before I heard, one Boy Scout who was one of the topmost in other Boy Scouts, he has won many rewards, was refused promotion because he said, "I do not believe in God." Now, strange. What Scouts have to do with God? And if an intelligent boy says that, "I do not believe in God," he is being thrown out. He cannot be a member. That is something absolutely necessary, that you believe in God. This is strange, absolutely strange.

Nobody can prove what God is. Nobody has ever been able to give any proof, any argument which is logical, rational, about God. It is simply a fiction, the greatest lie that man has invented. And you are trying to indoctrinate your children into lies? Just now, I heard that one of the most important Christian fundamentalists, Jerry Falwell, is trying that the Bible should be recognized by the government, by the people, as infallible. And the Bible is such a rotten Book!

If the supreme court is fair, they will put the Bible x-rated. It is pornography, pure pornography. It is simply ugly. You can find everything that is ugly there: sodomy, people making love to animals, homosexuality, all kinds of perversions. And he says every single word in the Bible is pure truth. Even Adam and Eve are not fictions, not a story but a historical fact.

Now, in twentieth century, in the most developed, educated, literate, democratic country, such idiots have influence, tremendous influence, over people, over government, over the president, over the senators in the parliament. It hurts. It really gives me great sadness. This man is saying that abortions should be illegal in a world which is already overpopulated, too much overpopulated, where one thousand people are dying every day in Ethiopia, where fifty percent of Indians will be going soon into the same situation, where the third world is all poor, undernourished. These people go on talking that abortion should be illegal.

Pope is doing that in South Africa, where the population rate, the birth rate, is the highest in the world.

And, the people are so poor. He is propagating that birth control methods should not be used, they are against God. But a strange kind of God these people have. This man Falwell is saying that homosexuality should be prohibited, the AIDS is a punishment from God for homosexuals. I am amazed. God seems to be for the first time in favor of women. Lesbians are not suffering from AIDS. For the first time God is no more a male chauvinist.

QUESTION: WHY ARE YOU SO CONCERNED ABOUT AIDS?

ANSWER: I am concerned because it is going to destroy whole humanity. It is far more dangerous than your nuclear weapons, because nuclear weapons may never be used, for the simple reason because it means global suicide. And nobody wants global suicide. A war is significant only when you can be victorious and somebody can be defeated. If in a war there is nobody who is victorious and nobody who is defeated, the war has lost all meaning.

We are living in a postwar area, a postwar era. The third world war will be continuously talked about, so people can remain frightened and the politicians can go on doing whatever they want to do; but it is not going to happen. What is going to happen is AIDS, which is in fact a religious disease for which your God is responsible, your Pope is responsible, Reverend Jerry Falwell is responsible, Billy Graham is responsible, because these are the people who have perverted human mind.

Homosexuality was born in monasteries, because you are forcing men to live together without a woman entering. There are monasteries where for one thousand years not a single woman has entered. And women have to be kept away in their nunneries, where men cannot enter. Now, you cannot go against nature. Your body does not know that you are a Catholic, that you are a fundamentalist Christian, that you are a Hindu or a Mohammedan. Your body knows nothing.

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bones, sex energy. It knows nothing about celibacy. God himself is not celibate. Not only that, he is a criminal. He made poor Virgin Mary pregnant. And the whole company of God -- God, the Holy Ghost, the Son -- all are men. It is a gay company, a gay club. And if anybody has to suffer from AIDS, all those three people must be suffering -- or may have died already. Nobody has seen them for long.

And this man Falwell is saying that AIDS is a punishment for homosexuality. And homosexuality is created by religions, all over the world. They are responsible for AIDS. The idea of celibacy is something that should be made criminal, because only impotence can be celibate. So let them be celibate. A man who is really alive, how can he be celibate? In graves you can be celibate. Be celibate! Nobody is bothering you.

But living man, full of energy....

Sex is part of life. To cut sex means to destroy life from the very roots, and to stop people from love, to separate man and woman, is against nature. AIDS is not a punishment from God, it is the responsibility of the religions and their priests. And all those people should be behind the bars immediately, because they are continuously trying to do the same. Still they are preaching celibacy, and nobody can prove medically that celibacy is possible. Never there has been anybody who was celibate. They were all hypocrites.

You cannot go against nature. If you try, then there will be perversions. And AIDS is the ultimate outcome of all kinds of perversions.

QUESTION: WOULDN'T CELIBACY BE ONE WAY OF AVOIDING AIDS?

ANSWER: Celibacy cannot avoid AIDS, it has brought it in. What you are going to do with your sex?

Then the churches should start propagating masturbation. That seems to be the only safe method to get rid of sex energy. If celibacy is going to be the safeguard, then you will turn the whole humanity into perverted people.

Then I will suggest to women that, "Turn into lesbians. Let men be celibate, let men be whatever he wants -- homosexual, sodomist. Women should become -- all women -- lesbians." At least they should be protected from AIDS, one thing. And every hospital should start collecting semen from men who are yet free of AIDS, so lesbians can be injected -- artificial insemination for the future of humanity. Because these men who are celibate and perverts and Christian monks, these are all going down the drain.

QUESTION: THIS IS OSTENSIBLY A CHRISTIAN COUNTRY. I WOULD BE INTERESTED TO

KNOW WHY YOU CHOSE AMERICA AND WHY YOU CHOSE THE AMERICAN WEST?

ANSWER: I have not chosen anything in my life. It is America who has chosen me. It is this wild west who has chosen me. America needs me, I don't need America. And I am going to fight against all these idiots. I give them a public challenge, to discuss with me. They go on talking nonsense to idiots and retarded Christians. They cannot prove God, they cannot prove that homosexuality is not the product of their monasteries, they cannot prove that Jesus was the son of a virgin woman, they cannot prove....

This man Falwell is saying that each single word, even the miracles described in the Bible -- Jesus walking on water, raising dead back to life -- are historical facts. If this man was able to turn water into wine, why not turn the whole ocean? You know the secret. Why turn a bottle into wine? And in fact a man who turns water into wine is a criminal. He is creating drugs. The real miracle will be that he should turn wine into water. That could be understandable. He is raising dead, but in his life there must have been many dead people. He raised only one person who was his personal friend. It seems to be all tricks, befooling people. That man was not dead. He was pretending to be dead.

Just think of the fact that not a single contemporary Jewish scripture even mentions the name of Jesus Christ. Do you think that a man who walks on water, a man who cures all kinds of diseases by touch -- the blind start seeing, the lame start running, the dead becomes alive -- do you think such a man will remain without reported? If he is not news, then what can be news? Not a single reference in any Jewish book.

And he was a Jew. He was never a Christian, that you have to remember. He was born a Jew, he lived a Jew, he died a Jew. He had never heard the word Christ or Christian. Their boy was doing such great things, and they crucified him! Does not make sense. They should have raised him, they should have accepted him as their awaited messiah. That's what he was trying to prove. But, not a single rabbi became his disciple.

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Strange.

All those twelve fools who became his apostles are illiterate, uneducated, poor men, fishermen, woodcutters, carpenters. Not a single rabbi who could manage, who was doing such great things! Even in twentieth century, if anybody walks on water and raises dead, all the presidents and all the prime ministers and all the queens and kings will be falling in his feet. He has proved that he belongs directly to God, that he is the only begotten son of God.

But Jews crucified him, because he was just a pretender. And all these stories are invented. And what he has said that seems to be so significant? All that is available in Jewish scriptures. He was simply repeating them. Not a single word is his own. And whatever he is saying is against humanity. Perhaps he himself was a homosexual. What he was doing with all these twelve fools hanging around him? Not a single woman! It is strange, really strange.

And it was not that women were not interested in him. In fact, when he was crucified all the disciples had escaped, those great apostles all had escaped, fearing that they may be caught. Only one was there, he also denied him. He said, "I don't know him, who he is. I am a man from far away, and I have just come to visit the city. I don't know him." And when he was brought down from the cross, there were only three women. Not a single apostle was there. His mother was there. A prostitute, Mary Magdalene, was there.

And another woman named Mary was there. These three women, whom he condemns badly.

In Christian trinity he could have made a place. What is the need for this Holy Ghost? What function, what purpose he fulfills? It would have been perfectly right: father, mother, son. It would have looked more natural. But the woman cannot be raised so high, to become part of trinity.

These people -- Jerry Falwell, pope the polack, mother Teresa the Terrible -- they are all against humanity. They want abortion to be illegal, they want birth control methods to be illegal, they want the pill to be illegal, and the pill is the greatest revolution that man has known. The pill is the only thing that can make the woman free from man's slavery. But Falwell is saying that the woman should follow the Bible, which says the husband is the master and woman's only function is to produce children. In twentieth century America!

You tolerate these people. Can't you make a cross? These people go on hanging golden crosses around their neck, why not give them a real cross? I am really surprised, because I had a tremendous respect for the democratic values of America. But I don't see that they are being practiced.

QUESTION: YOU HAVE LIVED IN THE WEST NOW FOR SEVERAL YEARS. WHAT DOES THE

AMERICAN WEST MEAN TO YOU?

ANSWER: I have not gone even out. My paradise is enough. I don't bother about anything. It does not mean anything to me. I have my people, I don't want to et mixed with sad, miserable, suffering. Jesus says,

"Blessed those who mourn, because they shall be comforted." I say to my people, "You will never be comforted, remember, because you are not the people who mourn. You are rejoicing. So forget one thing at least: you will never be comforted. But you don't need."

My people are rejoicing, dancing, singing, enjoying every moment to its fullest. And that is my approach, that: squeeze the juice of every moment, so that you have never to repent that that moment went away unlived. Don't bother about the past and don't bother about the future. The present is all there is, so live it totally. And they are living. I do not go out to see those long faces of Oregonians. I love my people, I love their laughter. This is my world.

QUESTION: HOW IMPORTANT DO YOU THINK THE USE OF THE LAND IS IN GENERAL, IN

TERMS OF THE DEVELOPMENT OF HUMAN SPIRITUALITY OR SOCIETY? IS IT AN IMPORTANT

VALUE?

ANSWER: It has tremendous importance. It is our mother, the earth. We may not see, but we also have roots in the earth. We are walking trees. The earth supplies everything to us. I am against a God who is far away in the heaven, but I am not against the mother earth. We should make it enriched, we should not disturb the balance of nature, which we have been doing for centuries. I am absolutely in favor of nature, its 1/08/07

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balance. We should not do anything that goes against it, because finally that goes against us.

We are part of this earth. So land should be used respectfully, lovingly. Hence in my commune work is called worship. We have dropped the word work. We use the word worship. Working with the earth --

farming, gardening -- you are doing real religious work, enriching the earth, helping the earth to regain its lost resources. I am absolutely in favor with environmentalists, those who want to save the environment, against the rape that man has done with his own mother.

The earth has been raped badly everywhere, and something has to be done urgently because the earth is dying. And your religious leaders never talk about the real problems of life. Mahatma Gandhi in India was against any scientific developments that can help the land to regain its youth again. No, he was in favor of the traditional methods. I cannot think that an intelligent person will talk sheer nonsense, but all these people are really not religious, they are political. They are saying what the masses want to listen.

The masses want to listen that their tradition is right, that their past is golden. It is not so. Neither the past was golden nor their traditional are right. Not their ideas about land, manure, production, creativity --

nothing is right. And this whole humanity is a proof that all your conventions and all your traditions have failed. And man is suffering because of your stupidity, that you go on clinging with those ideas.

You will be surprised to know Gandhi was against things, simple things like telephone, railway train, motorcar. After the spinning wheel, anything that has been invented, he was against it. Spinning wheel must have been invented some twenty thousand or thirty thousand years before. In fact, everything valuable has happened afterwards. Before the spinning wheel only one thing is conceivable, that is bullock cart. Those two things are the greatest inventions for Mahatma Gandhi.

And it was perfectly okay when the whole population of the world in Buddha's time, just twenty-five centuries back, was only two hundred million people -- the whole earth. Now just in India without Pakistan, without Bangladesh, is eight hundred thousand million. These people cannot live just on spinning wheel.

The spinning wheel you have to spin eight hours just to provide enough clothes for yourself. What about your wife? What about your children? What about your old mother? What about your sick father? And can man live by clothes alone?

Jesus says man cannot live by bread alone. Can he live without bread? The other part is not bothered about at all. I accept the idea that man should have better values, higher values, not just eating, drinking. It is good: man cannot live by bread alone. But don't forget that without bread man cannot live at all.

Man can live without everything, but not without bread. He can live without music, without spirituality, without poetry, without painting, but he cannot live without bread. And if eight hours he is just spinning clothes for himself, when he is going to earn bread? When he is going to earn enough money for the old father, his medicine? When he is going to earn money to make a shelter to live in? He cannot live under the spinning wheel. But Gandhi had a tremendous appeal, because he supported....

He was against birth control. He was against abortion. Strangely, all the religion who differ in their ideologies, in their philosophies, are in a subtle unconscious conspiracy as far as humanity, its growth, its future, is concerned. Ayatollah Khomeini, Mahatma Gandhi, pope, Falwell -- they may differ in their theology -- they differ! But they don't differ about fundamental things which can make human life rich, which can make human life comfortable, which can make humanity rich, affluent.

We have the resources now. Science has discovered so much; but, we are forcing the scientists in the service of death rather in the service of life. The same energy, and it is not a small part -- almost seventy-five percent income of all the nations -- goes into creating more weapons, armies and other necessary things for war. People are living only on twenty-five percent of their productivity.

There is no need for war. There is no need for any nuclear weapons. You already have more -- seven hundred times more -- than are needed to destroy this earth. Now this is sheer madness. You go on piling up. For what? These people have to be stopped, and these religious people have to be brought to their senses.

QUESTION: BUT ARE YOU IN FAVOR OF ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY? YOU SEEM TO BE.

ANSWER: I am. I am in favor of technology, but in a technology which does not go against life, does not go against humanity, does not go against environment. Technology is in our hands. It can destroy, it can create. Technology itself has no value system. We provide the values. I am not against technology. It is like a sword. You can kill a person or you can save a woman from being raped, the same sword. It is neutral. All 1/08/07

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power is neutral.

So the question is not of technology, the question is of people who are going to decide the value system.

Now, people like Ronald Reagan who belong to the fundamentalist Christian stupidity cannot be the right person to decide. Falwell cannot be the right person to decide. To decide exactly what technology should do, t should be not in the hands of the politicians, who are in their turn in the hands of the religious priests, because they have the power of people, their votes. So it is simply a conspiracy between the politicians and the priests to keep humanity starved, hungry, to keep humanity in such a state that it cannot rebel against the vested interests.

QUESTION: DO YOU WORRY ABOUT THE STATEMENTS THAT YOU MAKE ABOUT AMERICAN

POLITICIANS AND ABOUT THE LOCAL CONTROVERSIES REGARDING LAND USE AND OTHER

THINGS AS ENDANGERING THE RANCH HERE?

ANSWER: Those people who are talking about land use laws, we have invited them that, "You come here. For fifty years the land was lying dead. You never raised the question that one hundred twenty-six square miles land is lying dead." Not a single politician bothered about it. Those one thousand enemies of Oregon, they did not bother. We have made it productive. We have been inviting the governor, the attorney general, and these people seem such cowards. They won't come here. Just come and see how we have used the land. If it goes against your laws, then change the laws, because man is not made for laws. Laws are made for man. Just see if we have misused the land in any way.

We are ready to correct. We are willing in every way to change. But they don't come.

Just few days before -- that incident will help you to understand the situation -- we had a festival, and we created new kinds of tents, winterized so that people don't have to suffer in cold. Immediately the attorney general imposed a fine of six hundred thousand dollars because we have not taken permission, and

"Your tents are not tents but permanent structures." We asked them to come and see: are they permanent structures? Nobody ever came to see. They already decided that we have to pay that much money as punishment. We had to go to the court.

I said to my people, "Take a tent. There, inside the court. Within ten minutes we put up the tent. Without ten minutes we unfold it and put in the truck. And just tell the judge that, Ìs that not enough proof that it is not a permanent structure? We don't want to argue anything. The tent is itself the argument.'" And the judge was certainly intelligent man. He immediately dismissed the whole punishment and declared that these are tents, you cannot make permanent structures in ten minutes!

And the attorney general has no shame, even. He should have resigned immediately. Just a shameless fellow with no indignity. He cannot understand what indignity he has suffered. He should just go and jump into the ocean. Forget all about it. We were inviting him here, we would have been saved from this indignity. Now he has put a case against the city, that it is illegal, because religion and the government, and the state, is mixed here. Strange people. They don't come. They should come and show us where religion is mixing with state.

Your president is trying to mix state and religion. Your courts are mixing state and religion: why Bibles are provided to take oath? Why a Scout has been thrown out because he does not believe in God? And now this man, Jerry Falwell, he is saying that Bible should become a national government-approved scripture.

Each single word is true. And he has immense power over politicians. He is a friend of Ronald Reagan. He is going to see him. And they both belong to the same company.

And this city is under litigation. This is a unique city in the whole world -- illegal city. Either there is a city or there is no city, but illegal city is a rare phenomenon. And that too when in four years time, while we have been here, not a single crime has happened, no rape has happened, no theft has happened, no murder has happened, no suicide has happened. And we are the illegal city.

You should declare New York, San Francisco, illegal cities, because everything illegal is happening every moment. Such a innocent city, where nobody is doing any harm to anybody, is illegal. And the people who decide it don't come here, because they know they cannot encounter and face the reality. But we are going to prove that the whole America may be illegal but this city is not.

QUESTION: WHAT WOULD YOU EVENTUALLY LIKE TO CREATE HERE?

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ANSWER: We would like to create as big an oasis as possible, a model for the whole world. We would like to know people that crimes are not needed, rapes are not needed, prostitution is not needed, politicians are not needed. We are living with so psychological health. If somebody commits a mistake -- which is human, it is not a sin -- he should be encouraged to learn from his mistake. If he goes on committing the same mistake, then we have all kinds of therapies in the university. We send the person to the university, that now it is the world of the psychologists, psychoanalysts, psychiatrists to change this man's conditioning.

No, we don't have any jail here. Our police we call Peace Force, and they have no work. They must be getting bored holding their guns the whole day for four years. Nothing happens. Their guns are not needed, and I don't think they will ever be needed. We would like to create a model. I don't believe in arguments, I believe in existential proofs. Rather than convincing by arguing, I would like... and this is not the only commune. We have hundreds of communes around the world on the same pattern. And we are trying in every way to prove that people can live so happily, so blissfully, so lovingly, there is no need for anybody to murder, to commit suicide, to become homosexual, to suffer from this ugly disease AIDS.

All my sannyasins around the world had gone through the test. I said, "Immediately go all through the test." In this commune we have found two persons having AIDS. That does not mean they have lost our respect. They have gained more respect and more love, because they are victims of the whole past of religions. We have made the best houses available for them, the best scenic place. And because they are going not to live more than two years at the most, we are providing them everything that we can: all our love, all our respect. They are not reduced the way they will be reduced in the outside world.

In the outside world a person does not want to go through the test, because if it is found that he has AIDS even his family -- his wife who was ready to die for him, his father, his mother, even his children --

will close the door and tell him, "Get lost. You don't belong to us." His friends will become enemies. He will lose his job. He cannot live. If once it is known that he has AIDS, the only way out for him will be suicide.

But in my commune they are living more beautifully than any other sannyasin, and we have given them meditations, they can meditate, they can study, they can paint -- whatever they want to do. Whatever they always wanted to do but never could get time, now they have two years time, complete two years time. This is too much! Do everything that you wanted to do and meditate as deeply as possible, because if your death comes, and you are able to meditate while death is coming, that is the greatest experience in the world.

Because death comes to the body, to the brain, but not to you. You can go on watching death step by step.

It has taken your body, it has taken your brain, it has taken your heart, but you are still the same. At the very center of your being is something which is eternal. And the time of two years.... They are fortunate.

AIDS has come in disguise as a fortune, otherwise how to get two years time just to meditate and do nothing?

I have every certainty they will die a beautiful death. The other religions have given them the disease; we are going to give them a rejoicing even in death. And nobody can spread here, because nobody can be part of the commune unless he goes through the test. And the disease is really such that very drastic steps have to be taken.

For example, kissing can give it to you, tears can give it to you. So I have told my people, "Stop kissing." Anyway, it is a very unhygienic procedure. I don't see that it has something to do with love. Just mixing your saliva and tongues playing into each other's mouth -- it is simply insane. And we can find better, more scientific, more hygienic methods.

Eskimos have never kissed, so it is nothing natural. I know in India there are aboriginal tribes who have never kissed. In fact, when they first found Christian missionaries kissing, they could not believe. These idiots, what they are doing? Even aboriginals who are five thousand back, they could not believe that these idiots, they have come to teach us, and they don't know what they are doing. Eskimos rather than kissing will rub their noses, which is far more hygienic. In India the ancientmost book on sexology prescribes playing with each other's earlobes. They are very erotic. So we can find ways. There is no problem. Just a little intelligence is needed.

Never wipe anybody's tear. In fact, in my commune it doesn't happen. Nobody is crying and weeping and screaming, the whole scene that is happening in every family. It is not a family. But even if somebody is crying, perhaps out of joy tears may come, don't allow those tears to be touched by anybody.

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QUESTION: SEX IS ALSO UNHYGIENIC?

ANSWER: It is. But it can be made hygienic. We have made it. I don't believe in theories. If anything I see is right, I tell my people to do it. While making love they should use condoms, while making love they should use gloves. And they are freely available to everybody. And this is simple intelligence. Why do unnecessary harm to the person you love?

QUESTION: YOU'RE A SENSUAL MAN?

ANSWER: Certainly.

QUESTION: RUBBER GLOVES AND CONDOMS DETRACT FROM SENSUALITY.

ANSWER: No. They do not. If you are really sensuous, they also become sensuous. Otherwise your skin will destroy your sensuality. What is your skin? It is just a rubber glove! Do you want the woman to be really naked? All skin taken away? Then you will make love? If you can make love through the skin, what is wrong with a plastic or rubber over your hand? It is just new, and in fact everything new is an adventure.

I am a sensuous man, and I appreciate sensuality. But my understanding is a sensuous man can touch anything and make it sensuous. A non-sensuous man or anti-sensuous man....

And you may have observed, sometimes you shake hands with a man and you feel as if you are shaking hands with a dead branch of a tree. That man is not there. He is simply fulfilling a mannerism. There is no warmth coming from him. In fact, you will feel sucked. By being with this man you will feel tired. You will feel as if that man was somehow a parasite on your energy. So it is not a question.

You can make anything sensuous. And when life is in danger, you have to find out a way, because what you will do if life disappears? Then where will be your sensuality? And where will be your sexuality? It is simple matter of intelligence.

QUESTION: WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO THIS COMMUNITY WHEN YOU ARE GONE?

ANSWER: I never think about the future, because my idea is that anybody who tries to make arrangements when he is gone is a criminal, because he wants to rule even when he is dead. Jesus says, "I am the only begotten son of God, so don't listen to anybody else. Only I am the savior. Nobody else can save you." So even when he is dead he is dominating half the humanity. Dead people controlling, dominating living beings, intelligent beings!

Manu wrote for Hindus five thousand years away their moral code. They are still following it. In five thousand years everything has changed. That code is absolutely rotten. It should be burned, but it has been followed. Older a scripture, more valuable it becomes. Every religion tries to prove that their scripture, because more ancient it is, more worthless it is. Is man evolving or falling down? We have evolved in every way, and we should use every method....

Of course, Manu cannot be aware of it. Neither Jesus can be aware of it, nor Buddha can be aware of it.

Still they have tried to dominate the future. I find it disgusting. I don't want to dominate even now, when I am alive. I simply express myself and leave to my people to decide on their own. I never go to the commune's office, I never go to the commune's meeting. I am not even a member. It is up to them. I share heart to heart what I feel in a certain situation, then they are free. Then I never ask even whether you have done anything about it or not. That is not my business. Who am I? Why should I dominate anybody? That is degrading the other person, reducing his humanity.

And you are asking me after my death? I am not going to have any successor, because popes have done so much harm in two thousand years. I am not going to create another line of popes, no. I am sharing my awareness to my people. That awareness will take care.

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My whole effort is to make them more alert, more intelligent, and live through their intelligence. So in the future they will be able.... They are right now, without me, functioning. I don't know even the roads of the commune. I have only my own road, where I go for driving. Twenty-three hours it remains in meditation. Only for one hour I disturb it, otherwise no traffic.

My people are living already on their own, and my idea is before I leave them I should become almost absent. So there will be no problem at all. My death will not create a problem to them. I was already absent for many years before death, and they were managing perfectly well. They will manage perfectly well.

For three and a half years I was silent, I was not speaking. They managed perfectly well, everything went absolutely right. It was tremendously joyful to me to see that I am silent, they cannot get any instruction from me, they have whole responsibility on themselves, they cannot dump responsibility on me, and they did so beautifully.

It is just because in my silence they did beautifully that I started speaking again. Now there is no problem. They are not dependent on my speaking or not speaking. They will not be dependent even my presence. My absence or presence will not make any difference. The people who appoint their successors, who give instructions, who make Ten Commandments, are really not the right kind of people. They are trying to dominate humanity through their grave. I am not interested in dominating a single individual. My whole effort is to make every individual totally responsible for himself.

QUESTION: WHY DO YOU LIKE ROLLS ROYCES SO MUCH?

ANSWER: I have tried all kinds of cars. Even Rolls Royce has many types, I have tried them too. Their best is their Cornice, but it didn't suit with me. It is a question with my back. I need a certain kind of chair. I use only this chair, it has been made by my sannyasins exactly to give support to my back, because doctors said they cannot do anything.

Experts from England were called to India, they tried hard, and they said, "It is impossible. You will have to live with it." It was just a coincidence that one of the models of Rolls Royce, Silver Spur, suited me.

That chair of the driver in that car perfectly fits, gives me no trouble. Naturally, my people love....

They don't belong to me, those cars. Nothing belongs to me. I am the poorest man in the whole world, living the richest life possible. My people love me. They want to do something for me. All those cars belong to the commune. They made them available to me for one hour. I don't know what care they are bringing, but one thing is certain, that I can be comfortable only in Silver Spur. And they love me so much they are trying to have three hundred sixty-five Rolls Royces, one for every day. And I say, "Why not? Just a great idea!"

They make everything for me: this chair, my shoes, my dresses, my hat, even my watch. Everything they make for me. And because they make with so much love, so much feeling, that I can feel the robe is not just the cloth. That's why I sad I am certainly a sensuous man. Wearing this robe I can feel my sannyasins, their love for me. Wearing this watch I can feel the person who worked hard on it, because they did not know how to make watches. He went to Switzerland to learn, and now two of my sannyasins can defeat any watchmaker in the world.

This is from Piaget, the same watch, exactly the same watch, is quarter million dollars. My sannyasins have made it not with diamonds but with real authentic stones. In that way it has no price, it is just the cheapest watch possible. In other way it is valueless. If somebody offers me one billion dollars for it, I am not going to give it. Love is never for sale.

They have arranged ninety Rolls Royces, and I know they will be able to manage three hundred sixty-five.

QUESTION: IF YOU SOLD TWO OR THREE ROLLS ROYCES, YOU COULD BUILD ANOTHER

LAKE WITH THE MONEY.

ANSWER: They will make the lake too. There is no need to sell the Rolls Royces. They will never sell, even when I am gone those Rolls Royces are not going to be sold. I have used them. They will feel my presence in them. They will not want anybody else to sit in those cars. Those cars are not saleable. And as 1/08/07

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far as lakes are concerned, whatever is needed they are doing it.

We have made a great lake, and now we are thinking to double it. Two and a half million dollars worth lake, and we are now planning to make it double. Already it is great, but when it enters deeper into mountains it will be more scenic for boats, for people to go deep in the mountains. We are making everything. As far as money is concerned, it is not a problem. We can create.

All my communes around the world are living richly. Here you can see it, not only that I have ninety Rolls Royces, my other sannyasins have Rolls Royces. They have Mercedes Benz. There are hundreds of cars. There are only fifteen hundred permanent residents here, and I don't think any city in the whole world can compete as far as cars are concerned. Fifteen hundred people have one hundred busses. Fifteen hundred people have five airplanes and their own airport. And everybody is capable to have anytime any kind of vehicle he wants, because we have made pools of vehicles.

For example, this Jesus Grove where we are sitting, they have a pool of hundreds of cars. Anybody can take any car. Everything belongs to all. They will not take my cars, just out of their love. Nobody has prohibited them. I have not prohibited them. Just out of love, out of gratitude, they will not take. Otherwise those ninety cars are always available, they can take. What I can do with ninety Rolls Royces? I do only for one hour drive, I cannot drive ninety cars in one hour. They also know it, but they feel how much love I have given to them.

I have given my whole heart to them. So they want to do something. Anything that they can do, they try.

It is not a duty on them, nobody has asked them, nobody is forcing them. It is out of sheer joy they go on doing things. And that's the way it should be.

I don't even say that I am your leader or your Master. I simply say I am just a friend. If my experience can be of any help to you, I am ready to share. Okay?

QUESTION: THANK YOU.

ANSWER: Thank you.

The Last Testament, Vol 2

Chapter #11

Chapter title: None

31 August 1985 pm in Jesus Grove

Archive code: 8508315

ShortTitle: LAST211

Audio:

Yes

Video:

Yes

Length: 117 mins

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

INTERVIEW WITH CHRISTIAN SIDEL, SONNTAGSBLICK, ZURICH, SWITZERLAND

Q:* I WANT TO ASK SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT SWITZERLAND. YOU LOVE THE SWISS

PEOPLE?

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A:* I hate all divisions in humanity -- Swiss, Italian, German, Indian. Mankind is one. The whole earth is one. The people are all lovable, everywhere. There is no need to discriminate. Of course I love people who live in Switzerland, but I will not call them Swiss people.

Q:* THE SWISS PEOPLE THERE ARE FAMOUS BECAUSE OF THE CLEAN COUNTRY AND THEY

ARE CALLING THEMSELVES A COMMUNE TOO. DO YOU THINK THERE IS A SIMILARITY

BETWEEN YOUR COMMUNE AND SWITZERLAND, BECAUSE YOU ARE PREPARING YOUR

COMMUNE VERY CLEAN TOO?

A:* I know Swiss people are clean... but there is nothing to brag about it. One should be clean. That is nothing, something special. That should be natural. When somebody is unclean, then he is a special case.

Switzerland is clean, a beautiful country....

Q:* IS IT POSSIBLE THAT YOU GO TO SWITZERLAND AT ANY TIME?

A:* There is every possibility. I keep everything open.

Q:* WHAT WOULD YOU DO IF YOU ARE IN SWITZERLAND?

A:* That will depend what people there do with me! They will be as hostile to me as any other people, because the mind of man is just the same all over the world: conditioned by the past, anything new creates fear, paranoia. And I am totally new, discontinuous with the past.

I want humanity to burn the whole history of man and just to start from the scratch, because what we have done in the past is not worth remembering. Sooner we forget it, better.

So it is not a question of Switzerland or Germany or England or India; the mind is conditioned by the past. There may be differences in detail, but one thing is basic that they are all living with ideas which are out of date. And they are all living with fictions, as if they are realities. So when I say the truth, it hurts, it shocks.

Q:* WHAT WOULD YOU DEPROGRAM IN SWITZERLAND?

A:* I will do exactly the same that I am doing here: shocking people, creating as many enemies as possible. Because that is my way of work: once you are my enemy, then friendship is not far away. Rather than starting with friendship and ending up with enmity -- which is what happens -- I have reversed the process. I start with enmity and end up with friendship. Then there is no possibility of enmity again; it is already finished, it is already over.

Gautam Buddha used to say that anything sweet in the beginning turns out to be bitter in the end, and anything bitter in the beginning turns out to be sweet in the end -- and I feel he is right as far as human relationship is concerned.

Q:* I REALLY NEARLY NEVER SAW SUCH A PEACEFUL PLACE THAN RAJNEESHPURAM AND I CAN'T EXPLAIN IT MYSELF, WHY MOST OF THE JOURNALISTS WHO COME HERE AND WRITE

VERY HATING AND NEGATIVE ABOUT RAJNEESHPURAM AND YOU, ESPECIALLY THE

GERMAN-SPEAKING JOURNALISTS.

A:* There are reasons.... The people who come here, come with closed mind -- already full of prejudice, already they have arrived to the conclusion before arriving here -- and with all those glasses on their eyes they see.... Naturally, whatever color glass they are wearing, they see it here. It is their reflection. Because 1/08/07

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you have come open, unprejudiced, with no idea for or against, you will see the reality.

There is certainly no other place more peaceful, more loving, more rejoicing. In fact that is also one of the causes of people becoming hostile. Their hostility is basically based on jealousy. They are miserable, they have forgotten how to smile, they have forgotten how to laugh. They are living in utter anguish and suddenly they come across these tremendously ecstatic people -- jealousy arises. And to hide that jealousy, hostility is the way.

They don't want to believe that they have missed something in their life which others are already enjoying. They don't want to believe that it is a reality. So they spread all kinds of rumors which have no base in the facts. But they are bound to do that.

It is difficult to find open people to come here, because open people don't exist. Somebody is Christian, somebody is Hindu, somebody is Mohammedan, somebody is communist -- everybody is part of a crowd, everybody is part of a mob psychology. And whatever is happening here goes absolutely against his background, his mind, his tradition, his religion. Naturally, he feels offended.

I have no complaint about these people, just sadness, because if they were open they could have found a way to rejoice life themselves. But rather than finding the way, they create more and more barriers to understanding.

We don't hate anybody. Everybody is welcome. But it is one of the basic things to understand: you can be compassionate to somebody who is suffering, because that gives you the idea that you are not suffering.

You can be compassionate to a poor man who is dying, starving, because there is a deep inside consolation that you are not in his place. But you cannot be loving towards someone who is living better than you. He creates inferiority in you. It is your doing, he is not doing anything -- he is just living his life -- but you start feeling inferior. And how to get rid of the inferiority complex? Either you learn to live the way the other man is living -- that needs tremendous courage and guts because you will have to drop so many things you have become attached.

People become attached even to their fetters, if the fetters are made of gold; people become attached to their cages, if they are masterpieces. They don't want anybody else.... Just think of a bird in the cage looking at the sky, other birds on the wing -- how he feels? He has to find some way to condemn those birds, otherwise he is condemned.

He cannot leave the cage, he has not brave enough to destroy it and get rid of it. And in fact he is infatuated with its beauty -- the beautiful cathedrals, the churches, the beautiful vatican, all that keeps you encaged. The bird on the wing has nothing, but he has the whole sky.

The only way to console yourself, to find some fault with the bird on the wing: that he is disobedient, that he is rebellious, that he is a criminal, that he is doing something wrong which is not supposed to be done. He should be in a cage, peacefully. And the cage is nothing but a living acceptance of a grave! You have already died.

A bird without wings is dead. A bird whose sky has been taken away from him is dead. So when those dead birds come here and they see my people with their wings open in the sky -- loving, dancing, singing, enjoying, relishing every moment -- suddenly a great inferiority complex arises in them. They have to do something about it and there are only two ways: either become red or become hostile.

And becoming hostile is easier, because it keeps your vested interests, your jobs, your crowd, your respectability intact. Becoming a sannyasin, yes, you will have the whole sky, but you will be losing the safety, the security, the bank balance, the job, perhaps the wife, the parents, the children -- the risk is too much. They decide it is better to hate these people.

Their hate is a protection, but as far as I am concerned, I know: the moment they start hating, they have already fallen in love. Their hate is superficial. It will not last long, that's why I say I influence people and create enemies. Once they are my enemies they are my people. Sooner or later their hate is going to be dropped, because it cannot stand against the truth.

And their hate is going to become a nightmare to them, because deep down they know what they are doing. It is not that they don't know. They would like not to know, but there is no way: they know perfectly well what they are doing. They are rejecting a reality just because they are cowards, because accepting the reality of this place means a tremendous revolution in your life -- in all the values of your life.

Perhaps you are living with your wife and there is no love any more, but you are simply living because it is respectable. You are part of a society which respects monogamy, which respects marriages should last for their whole life. And you have promised this woman also many times that, "We are made for each other," and now you find that, "We are not made for each other" -- nobody is!

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So every husband and wife are simply coexisting, it is not relationship -- tolerating, avoiding conflict.

They don't open their mouth because the moment they open their mouths, soon there will be argument; it is better to keep silent. The husband goes on reading the same newspaper again and again, just to avoid the wife, because if he stops reading the wife is there. And it is not a rare case that wives are throwing away the newspapers, the magazines, the books, because they know they are just barriers. They want to talk. The whole day they have been burning hot and by the evening you come and you start reading your newspaper!

Why they are in such anger? Because you both have given to each other great promises, great hopes, and neither you have been able to fulfill them nor she has been able to fulfill them. You had promised the paradise and you have given hell to each other.

If you come here with open mind, and you see that to live with a woman whom you no more love is a crime -- it is sin, it is ugly, inhuman -- it is better to depart with friendship, with gratitude, for all those beautiful moments that you lived together. But now, the breeze that had come into the room, has gone by the other door. There is no point in pretending, but everybody is pretending.

I am simply taking one case about everything. I know doctors who don't want to be doctors -- but what else to do? They have wife, they have children, they have parents.

Q:* WHY NOT?

A:* They are afraid, just to play guitar on the street and become a hippy! They have been raised with all these responsibilities. Their conditioning is that you have some duty towards your parents, some duty towards your children, some duty to your wife. Even if they dare to go, they will feel guilty, they will feel they have betrayed -- the culture, the civilization, the religion, they have betrayed their parents, their children, their wife. They will not feel at ease at all.

In my commune, nobody has any responsibility towards anybody else. He is responsible only for himself. Hence there is no question of any guilt and there is no question of any repentance.

Jesus continuously says to his people, "Repent! Repent!" What kind of religion is this that teaches people to repent? Because they can repent only if you have first created guilt! Repentance is secondary; it cannot exist on its own. First create guilt in them. First tell them that even to look with loving eyes and desiring eyes with anyone's wife is sin. Strange!

If the woman is beautiful, why not look with loving eyes. That should be simply the way, the right way.

Why not go and tell the husband of the woman that, "You are fortunate. You have a beautiful wife. I am already thinking of swapping!"

But we are living in a very idiotic society. You can appreciate a painting, you can appreciate music, you can appreciate a flower, but you cannot appreciate a beautiful woman, a beautiful man? If your wife just tells you, "Look at that beautiful man," you will feel hurt.

Q:* IF YOU WOULD BE A JOURNALIST HOW WOULD YOU REACT ON THIS KIND OF

ARTICLES?

A:* I will enjoy! My wife has some ascetic sensibility. And I would tell her that, "If that man is willing, you are free to go with him, because it is your life, and you are not responsible towards me. And I love you, hence I cannot prevent you. I love you so much that if you are happy with that man, I will be immensely happy." That will be my response. I cannot call it a reaction; it is not reaction. Reaction is a ugly word.

Q:* WHAT WOULD YOU SAY?

A:* It is my response... and this is my responsibility: I love the woman, but she suddenly feels great love arising in her towards somebody -- what she can do? Love is not something within her hands. It happens.

And if it is happening and she has to repress it, she will take revenge with me. That's why every wife is taking revenge, every husband is taking revenge. Instead of love flowing between them, only revenge, because everybody sees in the other the prison, "Because of her...."

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I don't think you can find a single husband who has not thought of killing his wife... at least once. Exact number is at least four times. And it is natural, because she is the barrier and a beautiful woman is standing just within your reach.

All these are the problems. When people come here they are burdened with thousands of things. If they appreciate this place, these people, then what they are going to think about themselves? They are impotent, they are coward; they don't know how to live, they don't know how to love, they don't know how to enjoy freedom. They don't know how to allow others to enjoy freedom. They know nothing! And it is difficult to accept, it is against the ego to accept that, "I don't know anything of the art of living." And that is my whole religion: the art of living.

There is no God in my religion, there is no hell and heaven in my religion; there is only simply an art.

Q:* YOU SAY THAT YOU ARE AGAINST ALL ISMS, BUT YOU CALL YOUR RELIGION

RAJNEESHISM -- HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THIS?

A:* I don't call it. This is one of the problems. It is others who started calling it -- and I can understand their difficulty: they have to label it something. And it is not only in this case. For example, Germans don't call their country Germany; it is others. Germans have their own name for their country, but nobody bothers about their name.

India has its own name, but nobody knows about it outside India. They have never called it India; it was others who started calling it India -- for a very strange reason: because when Alexander the Great, who was the first invader, reached the boundaries of India, on the boundary there is an immensely beautiful big river which is called Sindh.

The Greeks could not call it Sindh; they called it Indh. And from their Indh the country became India.

No Indian has ever called it India. No scripture of India ever mentions it as India. It was Alexander and his armies who carried the name Indh, India, Indian, and that became the name to the whole world. That's what is happening to us -- we don't have any ism -- but people had to label something. But it is just like a name: you are born without a name, people give you a name -- without name it will be really going to be difficult for them -- how to address you?

It is the others who started calling it an ism. I am against all ism, including Rajneeshism. The very idea of ism is ugly. It means you have come to a conclusion, to the full point -- now there is going to be no growth. Every ism is a dead thing -- and I am still alive. Please wait at least for me to die, then you can call it ism, but while I am alive.... And every day I am contradicting myself knowingly, for the simple reason that with so many contradictions, nobody will be able to create an ism even when I am gone.

Q:* IS THERE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A RAJNEESHEE AND A SANNYASIN OR WHAT DOES

THIS MEAN?

A:* There is. Rajneeshee is the name given by others to my people. Sannyas is my peoples' decision to be with me, to allow me, reach their hearts, to be open to me, to remain available to me.

Sannyas simply means your decision, that you would like to be in as intimate contact with me as possible. It is a totally individual decision and all my sannyasins are related to me directly, individually.

They are all together because they all love me, otherwise there is no ism that is binding them together. Their love is the only thing that is binding them together: because they love me, naturally they have started loving each other.

Sannyas is a totally different thing. It is not an ism. It is a love affair. Yes, exactly a love affair.

Q:* THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO DON'T GET SANNYAS -- WHICH PEOPLE ARE THIS OR HOW DO

YOU EXPLAIN THE PHENOMENON THAT SOME PEOPLE DON'T GET SANNYAS?

A:* It is up to them! There can be thousand and one reasons and for every individual it will be different.

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to become a sannyasin, but there may be thousand and one things hindering, to be or not to be.... But trust me: I am going to get you! You cannot escape.

I know my people. I recognize them immediately. There are many people who would like to become sannyasins but they have problems -- and I can understand. For example, many Mohammedans from the Middle East have come to me -- they want to become sannyasins, but they will be killed. Mohammedans are absolutely idiotic. They know only one argument -- that is the sword: whoever is killed was wrong. They have not yet come to that cultured, sophisticated state where you can argue, discuss, come to a conclusion --

no. Might is right.

So the people from the Middle East want to become sannyasins, they have come with tears in their eyes, but they say, "Then we cannot go back to our country, to our family. We will be immediately killed!"

There are Russians who want to become sannyasins. There are other communist countries where people want to become sannyasins, but problems. Now in Russia they have found that I have few groups and now they are persecuting them... for no reason at all. Because they are not creating any problem, any harm, anything, but KGB is calling them, interrogating them, harassing them, threatening them, and now just few days before, they have published an article against me which is absolutely fiction. It has nothing to do with me. Not a single thing is right in it.

And they have declared twenty names in it who are suspected to be my people. Now those twenty people will be in difficulty, in everywhere -- in the restaurant, in the village, in the job, with their wives, with their parents, with the communist party, everywhere -- those twenty people now will be in difficulty.

But for sixty years after the revolution, in Russia, the young man has lost something tremendously valuable which is intrinsic part of being young, and that is the dream of a revolution, the dream of a change, the dream of a utopia -- they are not allowed to have any dreams of this kind. The revolution has happened and now there is going to be no revolution. But young people will always need something -- that is part of their romantic youth.

So they have found me! They are smuggling literature, they are typing my books, spreading those books, cyclostyled books, handwritten books, typed books, are moving hand to hand underground, they meet in basements, and they are more excited than anybody else. They had been asking me, "Can we use red clothes? Can we wear mala?" I am telling them not to do such things, because,"You will be in trouble and I don't want anybody to be in trouble -- you are my sannyasins without the mala, without red clothes."

Strange enough: red has been the monopoly of the communist; it is now my monopoly. They have already lost a great monopoly. They have only a flag. I have all my people red! Everybody is a flag.

There are problems with people. One old man comes here, for the whole year he has been coming -- he is a billionaire. Now that is his problem, because his family.... He's old, almost seventy, but he is the head of the family, head of all the corporations, head who controls the whole money; now the family is worried that he is coming here too much. Every month for one week he is here.

He wanted to become a sannyasin. The family went to some deprogrammer, but the deprogrammer said that, "He is not a young kid that you can deprogram -- he is seventy year old -- and if you try or force him to bring here, you will be really forcing him into sannyas. He has not taken sannyas yet -- just keep quiet. Be more loving to him, be more respectful to him, and don't disturb him.

Q:* IS HE AN AMERICAN?

A:* He is an American. And he is still coming and he will become a sannyasin. He had asked me twice, I said, "Wait." Because I don't want to disturb that old man with the family and everything.

I have been preventing him that, "You will be unnecessarily troubled. Right now you go on coming, meditate, but remain underground." I have many underground sannyasins around the world, because there are countries where they have thrown my sannyasins out of job, universities have thrown professors out of job because they became sannyasins. Strange!

They are fighting cases in the courts, because you can be a Christian and nobody throws you out.

Because Christianity has power, majority, and the politicians are in the hands of the majority, they cannot do anything against Christianity, they themselves are Christians. And now suddenly a person appears intelligent, well-educated, a professor and he has never been found to do anything wrong, but just becoming a sannyasin.... He will be still teaching the same things, he will be still doing the same work -- what has gone wrong?

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Now, I don't want anybody to be unnecessarily a martyr. I don't want anybody to be unnecessarily into torture. I will suggest that drop the red clothes, keep the mala in home, and join the service. You are no more a sannyasin -- tell them. That does not matter. What matters is your love towards me -- nobody can take it. What matters is your meditation -- nobody can take it, nobody can even know about it.

The essential is such that it is invisible. These are non-essential things which I have created just to shock the crowd, just to make my sannyasins have a certain identity, so they can create more enemies, more hostility, because that is my way of working -- that's how I have got one million sannyasins around the world, without going anywhere -- I simply sit in my room.

Buddha traveled for forty-two years continuously, still he had not that many people as I have without moving out of my room. And I will not move out of my room, and I am going to have many more millions sannyasins. And now I have opened a new area: underground sannyasins. Those who want to be, are willing to sacrifice, but I am against any sacrifice. Why you should sacrifice? You can have it without any sacrifice.

It is something inner. You can go on pretending to be a Christian, and even if you have to go every Sunday to the church, go and have a good morning nap -- there is no problem in it. I am not a fanatic, about anything.

So people come... if they stay here a little, then they are bound to fall in love with my people. If they just come and have a look and run away, then they will carry hostility, all kinds of jealousies, and they will be feeling inferior and they will take revenge.

You ask me particularly, "Why the Germans are so hostile?" Because Germans have suffered two world wars, particularly the second world war, in the hands of a very charismatic, but a crackpot, Adolf Hitler.

The Germans are worried because German youth is getting too much attracted to me, the same way as German youth was attracted to Adolf Hitler. They don't know that I am just the opposite kind of person.

Q:* FOR EXAMPLE, THE SWISS HASN'T ANY WAR SINCE ONE HUNDRED YEARS.

A:* I know it. That's why there are not many Swiss sannyasins. They are living comfortably well.

Q:* THEY DON'T NEED IT.

A:* They need it but they don't know it. They are comfortable and it is difficult to drop comforts.

Q:* WHY SHOULD THEY?

A:* They will have to drop comforts if they want to have luxuries. I am against poverty, but I am against just... just mere comforts. I am for luxury! I am always for the best.

Q:* YOU HAVE SAID THAT YOU ARE THE GURU OF THE RICH PEOPLE, SO SWITZERLAND IS

ONE OF THE RICHEST COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD -- ARE YOU THE GURU OF THE SWISS

PEOPLE?

A:* Soon, I will be. You just start it! It is not going to be long. Only the rich can understand me, because only the rich need me. They have seen everything in life and it is not fulfilling them, it is not that they were looking for. They have everything and yet there is tremendous discontent inside.

The poor man is hungry. He needs bread, he needs clothes, he needs a shelter. To talk about meditation to a poor man is simply inhuman. I will not do that. That is not his need. It is as if he is hungry and you tell him, "Listen to the Mozart, look at the paintings of van Gogh" -- that will be very inhuman. And meditation is far higher than any Mozart or any van Gogh: it is the ultimate in luxury. Because only in meditation you will find what you have been looking for many lives.

The rich man is capable to understand me and is in need of me. Just he has to come know about me. So make an effort that the rich people in Switzerland become aware of me, that I can give them what they 1/08/07

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cannot purchase. I can give them which no money can ever purchase.

Q:* DO YOU HAVE ANY SPECIAL RAJNEESH PROJECTS FOR SWITZERLAND ALREADY?

A:* No. But I have my commune there. They are working well, perfectly well. And soon they will be spreading. It takes a little time and the thing is very delicate. But I am the top of the whole world: nobody can escape me. He will have to decide, either for me or against me -- he cannot ignore me. And either way I am happy -- decide for or against -- I have taken possession of you.

So my people are there, they have a beautiful commune in Zurich, and I can come there any day.

Q:* IN THE DISCOURSE YOU SPOKE ABOUT WOMEN'S MENSTRUATION, AND YOU HAVE

OFTEN SAID THAT YOU ARE FOR NATURE AND FOR NATURAL THINGS AT MAN. I WAS

SURPRISED THAT YOU WERE TELLING THAT THE MENSTRUATION SHOULD GET PREVENTED BY

MEDICALS.

A:* I have always spoken for nature. That does not mean that we cannot go beyond nature. We should not go against nature, but we can go beyond nature, otherwise what is your intelligence for? Nature has given you intelligence. The simple reason is that you have been made capable to go beyond, and up to now you have used your intelligence going against.

I would like man to improve upon nature. There are many things which can be improved. And nature has given you intelligence, so it is nature itself improving; you are part of nature. For example, this monthly blues of women is simply something very crude and primitive. Nature can be improved upon and we will not be going against nature.

If we can make all the women of the world free from this torture, that they have to go for seven days, six days, some for ten days, I don't think we are doing anything against nature. We are helping the woman to become more healthy, more loving, less nagging. We are not only helping the woman, we are also helping the man, because those ten days of the woman, she is continuously a nuisance. She is suffering, she is in pain, she is almost in a kind of temporary insanity. She will do everything that after the period is over, she will repent. She will say "It is the period, that I was throwing plates and breaking things, unnecessarily." I don't think....

So the distinction has to be remembered: I am against anybody going against nature, but if you are going beyond, I am all for you. And intelligence is really part of nature. Nature itself wants through intelligence, to transcend -- all mistakes, all errors. Intelligence is part of nature, otherwise nature is blind. Intelligence is nature's eyes.

So everything, for example, if a plastic heart gives you better health, longer life, no possibility of heart attack, I will support the plastic heart. And I will not say this is going against nature, because whatever nature could do, you are doing it in a better way. And you are part of nature, so it is nature itself improving upon itself.

So I am for everything. I am not a fanatic person who believes "back to nature;"then you will be on the trees!

Q:* WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT HOMEOPATHIC?

A:* Nonsense! German nonsense.

Q:* WHY?

A:* Because it was born in Germany.

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Q:* WHY A NONSENSE?

A:* Because it is just sugar pills and nothing else in it. But it can help idiots who are suffering from diseases which do not exist, which are just their creations -- it can help. So I am not saying stop it, but the better way will be that people should be made more intelligent that they don't suffer from hallucinatory sicknesses. There are many pathies, not only homeopathy. There is naturopathy, there is ayurveda in India, there is acupuncture in China and there are many others in every country. And only allopathy is scientific; all others are just belief systems.

If you believe in naturopathy, it can be of great help, at least in eighty percent diseases, because those diseases don't exist. They are just in your mind. So anything....

In India people will go to the so-called saints and just wash their feet and drink the water... and they are healed -- no homeopathy, no naturopathy, no allopathy, nothing is needed. Just washing the feet of the saint and drinking that water and they are healed. They were never sick in the first place. That's why allopathy could not help them.

Allopathy can only help if the sickness is real. If the sickness is unreal, then allopathy is dangerous, because you are giving medicines for a sickness which does not exist. Your medicines will have their own after-effects, because all medicines have poisons of all kinds. They are meant to kill certain virus, certain causes of sickness. But if the sickness is only in the mind, just an idea, then allopathy is dangerous. The person should go to homeopathy. Then other pathies -- naturopathy....

But if we can raise human consciousness, just a little bit, eighty percent diseases will simply disappear and with eighty percent diseases disappearing, homeopathy, naturopathy, ayurveda, acupuncture, all nonsense will disappear. There is going to be only one science of medicine. And for twenty percent diseases which are actual, it is enough.

The difference is exactly like other religions and my religion: all those religions are homeopathy, my religion is allopathy; all those religions are superstition, my religion is science. Those superstitions have exploited man for thousands of years. They create the disease then they give the medicine to you. Naturally it is cured. They create guilt then they give you prayer; they create guilt then they say, "Confess to the priest"; they give you guilt then they say, "Trust in God, he is compassionate, forgiving" -- a very cunning game!

My people are guilt-free, hence nobody needs any prayer, nobody needs any holy Bible, nobody needs any God. Even if God comes to Rajneeshpuram, the people who are dancing in disco will not come out to see him! Who cares about God?

If you are guilty, if you feel you are a sinner, if you feel that on the judgment day God will be the person to decide where to send you -- to hell or to heaven -- then naturally if somebody appears on the streets and declares, "I am God," few people are going to believe in him. Those will be the people who are suffering from fictitious ideas. The God will be a tremendous consolation to them. That's how your messiahs, your saviors, your prophets have been doing. The whole business of religion is dependent on lies, absolute lies.

The search for truth is a totally different thing. It is not out of guilt, it is not out of the sense that you are born in sin; it is born out of your intelligence. Naturally an intelligent person wants to know, "Why I am here? Why this existence is here? What is the meaning of it? What is the source of it and where we are going?" Any intelligent person is bound to be curious, with so many significant questions, then there is a totally different religion.

Q:* IF I HEAR YOU SPEAKING I THINK THAT HUMANITY DEVELOPED IN THE WRONG

DIRECTION FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS.

A:* That's true.

Q:* WHY?

A:* It developed in wrong direction because the cunning people could exploit it only if it developed into 1/08/07

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wrong direction. And there are cunning people around -- politicians, priests -- these are the real criminals.

Not the people who are in prisons -- they are poor people, they have done trivia, some small thing. The real criminals are your politicians and your priests, because their whole existence depends on man not knowing the truth. The man should be diverted into directions where he finds nothing. That's why humanity has gone into wrong directions... and is still going!

Q:* IS IT NATURAL THAT IT'S GOING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION?

A:* No. It is not natural. It is because of the criminal mind of few people who have dominated -- and the criminal mind always wants to dominate. If it fails then it is to suffer the indignity of imprisonment, if it succeeds it becomes a president of a country or a prime minister or a pope, but all these people are criminals.

And simple humanity, innocent humanity, is available to these criminals and nobody is standing against them. That's why they are all against me! They may be against each other -- this is a very strange situation: they are all against each other, but as far as I am concerned they are all together against me, because for the first time I am trying to cut their business from the very roots.

My effort is that man should be freed from guilt and sin, and immediately you will see such a flare-up of intelligence around the world, which has been repressed for thousands of years. Suddenly you will see new faces: fresh, without any mask, young. Once they drop out of the direction that has been forced on them and start living simply, naturally, silently, on their own intrinsic insight -- not depending on Jesus Christ or Moses or Buddha or Mohammed, just taking the whole responsibility on themselves -- you will see a beautiful world arising. And it is not far away; it is going to happen, because people are really fed up, tired.

They have been exploited too much. Just they need the alternative, which we are trying to create.

All these communes around the world, finally are to become the alternative. This is our answer to the society which is suffering unnecessarily, is miserable unnecessarily, is poor unnecessarily -- and I don't want just to talk about it, because that will not help. I want existential proof of what I am saying. And my people are going to become the existential proof: they don't have any God, they don't fear any hell, they are not greedy for any paradise. They are creating paradise here, now. And anybody can come and see and experience.

We are going to take over the world. It is a wildfire that I am creating which no fire brigade can stop.

Just it takes time -- it is a big world....

Q:* SO MAYBE SOMETIMES THERE WILL BE NINETY PERCENT OF THE POPULATION OF THE

WORLD SANNYASINS, AND THE OTHER TEN PERCENT NON-SANNYASINS -- WHAT WOULD YOU

DO THEN?

A:* No problem. Let those ten percent suffer. They are already punishing themselves. No more punishment is needed for them. If ninety percent people are rejoicing and ten percent are mourning in the church because Jesus says, "Blessed are those who mourn, because they will be comforted," so let them mourn. We don't want anybody to comfort us; we are already immensely fulfilled. We don't need anybody to comfort us.

So those ten percent are... ANY percent of people -- those who do not want to change, who cling to their misery, suffering, anxiety, anguish, and who want not to live, and their hopes are directed beyond death -- it is up to them. They are free to suffer, they are free to torture, and that's what they have been doing for centuries. What your saints have been doing? -- torturing themselves. And the more they torture, the more they are respected. The more they are respected, the more they torture, because their ego is fulfilled. Just a vicious circle! They fast and people respect them, they start fasting more -- people respect them more, they become great saints.

There have been strange kinds of religious sects. One Christian sect believed in flagging themselves every morning -- the more you flag yourself, lash yourself, and blood flows from your body, and greater a Christian you are. And their saints, of course, were more torturing themselves than their followers.

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tremendously. Women were in a difficulty, because the man was becoming saints -- they were cutting their genitals -- but the woman...? Finally they found a way; they started cutting their breasts. Every year there was a day in that sect when people will get into a frenzy and will start cutting their genitals, their breasts, and those who did it, became saints -- nothing else to do.

In India there have been all kinds of masochists, respected as great saints. And of course, those who follow them, have to do something on the same lines.

I teach my people to rejoice, not to live in any torture. Suffering is not a quality, a value. Creativity is a value: you create something -- that will make you a great musician, a great dancer, a great poet. These will be my saints, because they have contributed to the happiness of man, to his pleasures, to his comforts. They have made the world better, they have improved upon nature. These should be called the saints and they should have all respect, honor -- not these idiots who are cutting their genitals or... hitting themselves with....

Strange kinds of instruments were developed in the middle ages by Christianity; certain kind of shoes in which there were nails -- you put your feet and those nails go into your feet, and you have to walk on those shoes, blood oozing -- and those nails make permanent wounds, because the saint has to use them every day.

They made belts with nails going inside your skin, and you are not supposed even to take those belts off when you go to sleep.

In India there are still people -- if you go to Varanasi -- you will find people lying down on a bed of nails, specially made. Their whole body is in immense torture, but thousands of people are worshipping them. You will find people who are not sitting, not sleeping, but just standing -- for years -- that is only their great achievement.

They have to stand with a certain support so from the ceiling ropes are hanging, a rod is fixed in the ropes and they are putting their hands on the rod. Slowly, slowly their blood goes on and on filling their legs, their head and their upper body shrinks and their legs become elephant legs. They are really creating elephantiasis*, a certain kind of disease, but they are known as saints. And you will not see any intelligence in their eyes -- from where intelligence will come? Their blood is not reaching to their head any more; you need sometimes to sleep so that blood can reach to your head, clean it, take the old cells, bring new cells.

But those people are standing for twelve years or twenty years. Their dead cells have not been removed by the blood. In fact the whole bloods -- just because of gravitation -- has moved into their legs. Even now if they want to sit, they cannot; their body has lost the elasticity. They cannot bend their legs. Their knees have disappeared long away, but they have the respect of thousands of people.

And I have been asking people that if somebody suffers from elephantiasis*, do you think him, he is a saint? These people are creating the disease themselves; they are idiots! What is their contribution? -- to humanity, to the world. They have not given a single poetry, a single painting, a single song. All that they have done is this stupid thing, and now they have followers who are practicing to stand just the way the great master is doing. They have lost all intelligence, they cannot even speak.... But this is what has been done in the past.

I am not unnecessarily against it. Every intelligent person in the world should be against it, and we should create an atmosphere in which man is freed from all these mad ideas -- and that's what my work is: a sannyasin is one who is freed from all insane ideas, who has dropped the cage and opened his wings into the sky, and now he knows the beauty of being free, he knows the tremendous joy of moving towards the far away stars -- the immensity of the universe is all his!

And every sannyasin has to contribute. Nobody should leave this world the same as he has found it.

Something he should contribute -- that is my religion. He should improve something. He should make more songs, more music, more dances. He should make more beautiful flowers. Nature has to be improved!

You can crossbreed plants, you can create new flowers which have never existed. It is not against nature. It is simply that you were not intelligent enough to use the potential of nature, when nature was always ready to crossbreed. You can crossbreed fruits and you can have new fruits, with new taste, which no human being ever tasted before -- you will be the first to taste it. And you can manage the taste the way you want: an apple having also a little taste of lemon in it will be more juicier. Or you can make it more sweet....

And the same has to be done with animals, and the same has to be done with man -- I am all for human engineering. Up to now man has been just an accident. We have to improve upon it. Because of this accident thing, there are so many idiots in the world which could have been prevented, and there could have been in their place so many geniuses. And it is not against nature; it is simply using your intelligence and 1/08/07

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the potential of nature....

In a single intercourse a man is releasing millions of living cells. Out of those million people, there may be an Albert Einstein, there may be a Shakespeare, there may be a Milton, there may be a Dante... and there are going to be thousands of idiots, mediocre people. And it is just left to accident: who reaches first to the female egg. And as far as I know, geniuses are always lazy!

I myself wonder, always, how I managed to reach the egg first? -- with so many idiots in the race.... Just accident.

Up to now we have lived with accidental humanity; now we can live with a planned humanity. So if we need one thousand Albert Einstein, we can produce one thousand Albert Einstein. If we need more doctors, then there is no need for forcing people to be doctor, because a forced man....

For example, I myself: my parents wanted to me either to become a doctor or an engineer or a scientist and I simply refused. I said, "I am going to study philosophy." They said, "You are mad! Philosophy pays nothing. You will not even get service." I said, "I don't bother about service. I can beg, but I am going to study philosophy."

My whole family was against it, and they all said, "Then you can go, but we will not be giving you any financial support."I said, "That is decided -- there is no problem in it. I am going against you -- this is expected that you should not give me any economic support. But remember, even if you want some day to give me the support, I will not take it."

For two years I had to work in the night in a newspaper as an editor and in the day to attend the university. Slowly, slowly, my family started feeling guilty that they are destroying my health, I am working whole night, then in the day I am going to the university, and here and there I find time to sleep.

My father came to me with tears in his eyes; he said, "Forgive us, but please accept... stop what you are doing and drop this service. We will be sending you enough money." But I said, "It was decided: I will not take it, because I have not followed your idea. Why you should be unnecessarily burdened financially to help somebody who has disobeyed you, always disobeyed you. No, it is perfectly well. I have no grudge, no complaint against you. I have done it knowingly. Even before you had said, I knew that that will be the last pressure... but I didn't want to see you crying."

But he will not leave. He said, "I will not go from the hostel, till you receive." I finally had to receive but I told him, "I am taking this money only because of your tears. I don't want anybody to be miserable, otherwise I don't deserve it. I am accepting it because you will never be able to forgive yourself and I don't want anybody to feel guilty on my account."

There is no need to force anybody to become a doctor or an engineer or a scientist. We can produce exactly what we want. Whole life is a mess. The person who needed to become a plumber has become a professor. The person who needed to be a professor is just a plumber -- strange world! Both are unhappy, both are inadequate in their work, both can never be total in their work. None of them is going to reach to the height of his creativity and potentiality. They are in wrong places.

We can improve upon nature. We should improve upon nature. And it is not against nature. Nature is already giving one million living beings to you, now it is up to you who wins the race. Help the right person, because the right person may be lazy. The right person may not run so fast. The right person may not care at all. Poets, painters, dancers, scientists, philosophers, mystics, perhaps may stand by the side and let the crowd go by. These type of people don't like crowds!

We have to remove the crowd from the traffic jam and bring those people who are standing by the side of the road. And we know now that the cell has everything.

It can be read, that what it is going to be, what are its potentialities, how long will be its life, what kind of diseases the person will suffer, what kind of color the person will have. Because the living cell has everything built in, and we can change it. That too is now possible. Why unnecessarily this man should suffer diseases when we can remove from the plan from the very beginning?

We can reprogram the person. We can take out all the possibilities of sicknesses. We can take out old age. We can let the person live a long healthy and young life. Old age can simply disappear from the world.

Sicknesses can be prevented from the very beginning. Rather than fighting whole life with your sicknesses and thousands of hospitals and millions of doctors and nurses -- sheer wastage! All this could have been prevented.

Even whether the person is going to be a criminal, or not, can be read. The whole map of his life is available. We can take out his criminal element, his political element, his effort to become a priest or a pope

-- we can take all these stupid things.

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And we can give him a new program, that how you can live more joyously, how you can relish small things of life. A cup of tea -- you can enjoy it as if this is the ultimate bliss. I call it going beyond nature and I call it, it is nature's own project -- it is not against nature.

Intelligence is the proof -- that nature has given you intelligence, now use it! Okay?

Get ready for sannyas!

The Last Testament, Vol 2

Chapter #12

Chapter title: None

1 September 1985 pm in Jesus Grove

Archive code: 8509015

ShortTitle: LAST212

Audio:

Yes

Video:

Yes

Length: 102 mins

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

INTERVIEW WITH THE TENNESSEAN, NASHVILLE, TENNESSEE

QUESTION:* IT'S NICE TO MEET YOU.

A:* I am just perfect. You start your questions.

Q:* THE REASON THAT I CAME IS JUST MAINLY A CURIOSITY OF MY OWN TO FEEL WHAT

IT'S LIKE TO BE NEAR YOU AND TO ANSWER A GENERAL QUESTION OF MINE, THAT'S A SORT OF

APPREHENSION OF....

A:* It will be easy now that you have been here, and it will be easier to understand because you have a personal curiosity. A journalist who comes just to do his job cannot get to the very roots of anything. His approach remains superficial. It is good that you feel personally involved, that you want to know things, not only intellectually, but existentially too.

So* it will be possible for me to communicate with you more easily. Your questions can be intellectual; my answers will not be. Questions don't matter; what matters is the answer. And even more than the answer, what matters who is answering, whether he is simply answering the question, or responding to a living human being. I don't answer questions; I answer you.

I have to reach to your heart, not to your mind. And I know your heart -- already beating. Better you start. And don't be worried, whatsoever the question is, I am open and available for any kind of question, any curiosity. You cannot ask me a question that has not been asked thousands of times.

But I always answer differently. I don't care much about the question. Whatever I want to answer, I answer. I use the question only as a stepping board.

Q:* I HAD HEARD THAT YOU DON'T DREAM. AND I'M WONDERING IF THAT'S TRUE, AND

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WHY WHY YOU DON'T DREAM, WHY YOU THINK YOU DON'T DREAM?

A:* It is true. One has to understand why one dreams.

One dreams because there are unfulfilled moments, repressed desires, things that you wanted to do, but could not because of the society, because of the culture, because of the religion. Animals don't dream.

Primitive people don't dream. I have come across aboriginal tribes in India which are still living five thousand years before-they don't dream. More a man becomes repressed, civilized, starts repressing his nature and projecting a certain personality which is respectable, then there are dreams.

Dreams are simply to help you. What you could not do in your waking hours, you can do in your sleep.

They are a kind of substitute. That's why Sigmund Freud and his school of psychoanalysis was so much interested in your dreams. They were not interested what you think in the day. That is all hypocrisy. What they were interested was what you dream in the night, because that will give them the clue of the true person.

But a Sigmund Freud will be absolutely amazed if he meets me. Because I never leave anything incomplete. I do only what I want to do, irrespective of any consequences. I don't care about respectability. I don't care about what others think of me. I simply live my life. And because I live so intensely and totally that there is nothing residual* that can create the dreams. Dreams are your unlived life.

You can try a simple experiment. One day fast, and in the night you will have dreams of eating good and* very delicious food. Fasting created a dream about food. In the day repress your sexual desire and in the night you will have a sexual dream.

Freud's interest was very correct. To know about you exactly your dreams have to be known. Once your dreams are known, then you can be helped to become more natural, less repressive. And what are the points in your life where you have been denying yourself, sacrificing yourself, either in the name of the country, or in the name of religion?

I have never sacrificed anything. I have never done anything against myself. Whatever I want to say I say; whatever I want to do I do. I have never followed anybody; I have never taken anybody's advice. I have a very innocent, primitive, simple life. That's why there are no dreams.

Q:* WELL ANOTHER THING I WAS WONDERING IS HOW PARENTS WOULD OR COULD RAISE

THEIR CHILDREN DIFFERENTLY, OR TREAT THEIR CHILDREN DIFFERENTLY, AS THEY'RE

GROWING UP, TO REDUCE ALL THE CONDITIONING AND THE OPPRESSION THAT WE THEN

SEEM TO STRUGGLE WITH AS ADULTS? HOW WOULD PARENTS DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY?

A:* Few guidelines can be given.

One: they should not make any effort that their children become carbon copies of them. And every parent is doing that, trying to make the child just a carbon copy. If you love your children that is the first thing to be stopped -- completely stopped -- for the single, and simple reason, that nature does not accept carbon copies. It accepts only the original.

And they should ask themselves what they have gained in their life. What are their blessings, what are their songs and ecstasies? There is nothing -- their lives are empty deserts -- and still they are trying their children to live according to them. One thing is certain that their children should not live according to them.

That should be their basic approach, because they have achieved only misery, anguish, anxiety, all kinds of suffering, but they are completely unaware that they are preparing again another generation for the same kind of experiences.

When I came back home from the university my parents were concerned about my marriage -- naturally.

My mother asked me first, because my father was always very cautious about asking anything to me.

Because once I have said anything then there is no way to change it. So first he tried through the mother, that she should find out what he feels about marriage, because once he has said no to me, we have to drop the subject completely. So just to feel his mind....

When I was going to sleep my mother came and sat on my bed and asked me, that "Now you have finished your education, what do you think about marriage." I said, "I would like to ask you, because I have never been married before, so I don't have any experience. You have been married, you have raised eleven children. You are an experienced person. I seek your advice. Has this life been a life of blessings? Have you 1/08/07

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not thought many times in your life that if you had not married it would have been better? And I don't ask you to answer right now. I give you fifteen days time to think over it."

She said, "This is really strange. I was going to give you time to think about it, and you are telling me to think about it." I said, "Yes, because I don't know. I trust you. If after fifteen days you say that yes, your life has been a life of tremendous joy and ecstasy, of course I will get married. But remember, I am trusting you so much, I am giving my whole life in trust in your hands. And remember also that I know your life -- there has never been any ecstasy, any blessing. It was a continuous fight, a struggle -- with the father, with the children."

And in India, it is a joint family. My family consisted at least of sixty people: my uncles, their wives, their children.

"And you have been continuously miserable -- that I know. Perhaps inside you may have experienced something that I am not aware of. Fifteen days -- you think over it. And I leave it to you: if you say,"Get married" I get married.

After fifteen days she said, "No. Don't get married." She said, "You tricked me. You trusted me so deeply that I cannot betray you, and I cannot cheat you and cannot lie to you. You are right; many times I have thought what the hell I am doing! -- just giving birth to children, raising children. This has been my whole life -- from early morning four o'clock to the late, twelve o'clock in the night, I am continuously working. I have never known a single moment of my own.

"These fifteen days," she said, "have been of great turmoil in me. I have never thought about my whole life the way you forced me to think. And I love you, and I take my question back. It was not really my question. Your father was trying to find out the answer."

I said, "Tell to him that he should directly ask me." She told my father, that "As far as I am, it is finished. I have told him not to get married." My father said, "My God! You have advised him not to get married?" She said, "Yes, because he trusted me so much, and he asked me to think over it for fifteen days, and he was willing. Now, I cannot cheat. And I cannot live with the guilt whole of my life. You do whatever you want to."

Now he was even more afraid -- even my mother is gone out of his hand. But somehow my answer has to be found, what I want to do. He asked one of his friends, a Supreme Court advocate, very famous, very logical and rational, and he thought that that man may be the right man to argue with me. And of course that man said, "Don't be worried. I have been arguing my whole life in the Supreme Court. Do you think I cannot convince your boy who has just come from the university -- what he knows? What is his experience?

I am coming tomorrow."

Tomorrow was Sunday, the courts were closed. He came to my house, and I told him, "Before you start

-- because my father has told you are coming to meet me about my marriage -- before you start I would like to make a clear statement that if you convince me, then I ready to get married, but if you cannot convince me, you will have to divorce your wife. Because you have to stake something. And I trust you, so I don't ask for a judge. I have loved and respected you, just as I have loved and respected my father. You have been so bosom friends, I have never thought of you anything else than my father. So I don't ask for a judge because that will be distrusting you. I trust your abilities, and I am ready for the arguments, but this condition should be remembered."

He said, "Then just give me a little time, because I have never thought about this alternative. The truth is that I have suffered my whole life because of my marriage, but I have never given a thought to it. And you are proposing me to divorce if I cannot convince you in favor of marriage. Let me think over it. I have children, I have wife, I have my whole respectability in the society. I cannot divorce so easily."

I said, "And you think I don't have anything. All that you have is past and all that I have is future. Past is already dead and finished. I am risking the living, the coming, and you are risking only the gone, the finished. Do you think you are risking more than I am risking?"

And he informed the second day, that "I don't want to argue about it at all."

I used to go to his house every day, and he will tell his wife, "Just tell him that I am not in the house."

Finally the wife said, "Why you are afraid of that boy? Why you enter into the bathroom and lock from inside? The moment you see him coming, why you are afraid?" He said, "You don't know. The problem is either he has to get married or I have to get divorced to you. It is a question of life and death. You simply go on telling him that I am not at home."

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that he may be an advocate of long experience in the Supreme Court, but he has lost this case as far as I am concerned. Tell him he should stop bragging that he has never lost a case. An actual existential case he has lost and even without a judge. He was both. I had given him both the chances to be the client and to be the judge. He could have cheated me, he could have been insincere to me. But I know that it is very difficult when somebody trusts so deeply in you...."

He came out while I was talking to his wife, and he said, "Just forgive me. You are right. I have always been in, but I was afraid -- never afraid of anybody, but I was afraid of you -- because I cannot tell a lie when I look at you, at your eyes, at your trust, your love towards me. I cannot tell a lie, and I cannot divorce my wife. There is so much involvement and there is so much investment -- that I cannot do. My suggestion is you talk to your father directly and tell him that there is no other way. He will have to talk directly to you."

My father never did that. I asked him many times, "Why don't you ask about my marriage? You have been trying from other ways to inquire; why don't you ask directly?" He said, "I know that your answer will create trouble for me. Your answer is not going to become a marriage for you, but it is going to become a nightmare for me. You simply forget the matter. Whatever you want to do, you do. If you want to get married, you get married; if you don't want, just drop the subject. As far as I am concerned, I have dropped it."

The parents should be aware of what they are conditioning their children because they have lived through that conditioning. What was their achievement? One thing is absolutely certain: that they have failed, that their life has been just a long, long misery and suffering. So one thing is certain that they should make the children aware: that, "Don't copy us, we have failed. Do anything, but don't copy us. At least try something new. Don't copy us."

But parents are doing just the opposite. That is their projection of the ego. The father wants the child to represent him to the world -- to be more respectable, to be more honored, to be more rich -- so that the world knows whose son he is. Even after death the world will remember him through his son. He is not interested in the individuality of his son; he is interested in his own ego projection. That's why he completely forgets that he has lived in hell and now he is preparing his son also to live in the same hell. Just parents have to be very alert and aware. This is the first thing.

The second thing is that the children should be protected, watched that they don't go astray, that they don't commit suicide or become addicts to drugs. They should be protected, but very delicately and very understandingly.

I asked my father, that "I want to start smoking." And I was only thirteen year of age. And he said,

"What? -- smoking? And you have some guts -- you are asking me? If people want to smoke, and particularly children, they hide somewhere and smoke; and you are asking my permission?" I said, "Yes, because I don't do so* too many wrong things. First, smoking; then lying, cheating, hiding -- and if I am caught, then what face I will show to you?

"People are smoking all around. I want to know what is in it. And I don't have money for it, and I want to have the best kind of cigars, cigarettes.... You manage."

He said, "I have to manage it too?" I said, "Certainly, do you want me to steal? Do you want me to beg from neighbors? You have to arrange it." He waited for a moment, then he said, "Yes, perhaps that is the right way. Perhaps you are right."

And he arranged, and that was my first and the last experience with smoking. It was simply stupid and silly to take the dirty smoke inside and out when pure oxygen is available. And particularly in my place, it was so beautiful and so windy.

Polluting your own breathing and paying for it, destroying your own lungs and paying for it.... I told my father, "It is finished forever. But if you had not allowed me, perhaps I may have got into the habit of it. It becomes a challenge. If you say no, then it becomes a challenge. Then I have to prove myself also."

Every child has to prove his individuality some way or other. And perhaps if I had gone smoking few days, I may have become accustomed to it, addicted to it.

The children should be protected, but given all opportunities and freedom. That is my second thing. And the children should be given every freedom to experience the good, the bad, so they can decide on their own. You need not have to say it to them. You need not have to force them to follow certain rules, regulations. Let them find their way. You simply watch carefully that they don't fall in a ditch.

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they know everything: they know God, they know heaven, they know hell. They know everything, and they know nothing. Sooner or later the children are going to discover that their parents were lying about such ultimate things that they... all their trust and all their love will disappear into their revenge, hatred.

So the third thing is just say to the children what you have experienced. And tell them that you don't know anything about God. You want to know, but you don't know. You are a seeker, and tell the children, that "You are also to be seekers. If I find it before you I will tell you. If you find it before, you tell me. We can always be available to communicate."

This is one of the difficult things in the world. Parents and children are almost living with such a gap that communication is impossible. Whatever the parents say to the children it looks all rubbish. Whatever the children say to parents it looks childish.

The third thing means that the parents should be friends to their children. It is their responsibility to bridge the gap. Be respectful to the child. Parents expect respect from the children, but they forget that this is something mutual. You respect the children and they will respect you. You trust the children and they will trust you. And then there is a possibility of communication, and a great communication is needed. But that is possible if the parents are not lying.

For example, when my father asked me, that "Now it is time that you should start coming to the temple with me and learn something about our religion, I said, Ì need not go there. Whatever you have learned, whatever you have experienced, you can teach me. I trust you more than the priest, a paid priest in the temple. I trust you more. I don't trust those dead statues in the temple. And how I am going to know what is written in the scriptures is true or not? You have been going to the temple your whole life. You tell me.

Have you really experienced anything, or it was just a dead ritual? Your parents have handed it over to you, and you are now handing it over to me?'

He never asked me again to come to the temple. He said to me, that "You are right. I have not got anything from all these prayers, no answer. I have not experienced anything that these religions go on teaching. And I have tried my best."

And that much I am certain, that he was a man who will try his best, anything that he wanted to do. I have seen him praying for hours in the temple, morning, evening. I have seen him reading late in the night scriptures. I told him, that "You have just to tell me that if you have not got anything out of all this wastage of time, then let me search on my own way. You don't interfere."

And you will be surprised, he died a disciple of me. He died as a sannyasin, because I found it before he could find it through his past, dead, twenty-five centuries old religion. I told him, that "I have found it, and I am ready to communicate with you. And I am grateful to you that you did not force me, because I was too helpless, too dependent. You could have forced me to go to the temple, to learn from the priest, to read the same scriptures that for generations you have been reading. But in twenty-five hundred years, has anyone of your family become enlightened?"

In India many families have their family trees. My family had its family tree. It is a big map.

Twenty-five hundred years, how many people have been there who remained unmarried, who got married, how many children were born to him, the whole tree. I asked him, "The tree is there, hanging." We had a small temple in the house. "It is hanging there. You come with me and tell me, out of all these thousands of people who has become enlightened? And they all have been doing the same thing that you are doing. And I am grateful that you did not force me. With me there comes a discontinuity with your tree; of all these people I am no more continuous."

Q:* TELL ME ABOUT TRUST. AND HOW DID YOU DEVELOP THEN THE KIND OF TRUST THAT

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT? AND HOW DOES SOMEBODY DEVELOP THAT KIND OF TRUST? YOU

SEEM TO HAVE MORE THAN YOUR PARENTS HAD FOR YOU.

A:* Trust is simply the very purified love. Love without sex, that is trust. They loved me. I was their eldest son, and in India it is traditional that the eldest son is going to inherit the whole family's property, money, everything. So the eldest son has to be trained, prepared for all the responsibilities that will be his sooner or later. He will be the head of the family, a joint family, and he will have to manage it.

Naturally they loved me. They tried their best to make me as capable, as intelligent as possible. I loved them because it was not only love from their side, but respect too -- respect for my individuality. Soon they understood that nothing can be imposed on me. It took a little time for them to understand that they have a 1/08/07

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different kind of child. They cannot impose anything on me, at the most they can persuade, they can argue.

And if they can convince me about something, I will do it, but they cannot just order and say, "Do it because I am your father."

I had made it clear to them that I am not going to accept anybody's order. "You may be my father, but that does not mean that you are going to be my intelligence, my individuality, my life. You have given birth to me, but that does not mean that you possess me. I am not a thing. So if you want me to do something, be prepared. Do your homework well. I am going to argue to the very end, till I feel convinced."

So on each small thing soon they recognized the fact that it is better to propose a thing and leave him to decide whether he wants to do it or not. Don't waste unnecessary time and don't unnecessarily harass him and be harassed with him. And because they gave me every freedom, my love became trust.

Love becomes trust when it is non-possessive. It does not reduce you into a thing. It accepts your individuality, your freedom, and it has every respect for you, although you are just a child. Their respect towards me became my trust towards them. I knew that they are the people who can be trusted, who cannot deceive me on anything.

And because I trusted so much -- this is just a circle of things -- because I trusted so much, they could not do anything or say anything which will disturb my trust in them. They never took me to the temple.

They never gave me any religion. I have grown up on my own, and they allowed. They protected me in every possible way. They helped me in every possible way, but they never interfered with me. And that's what every parent should do.

If these three things are the guidelines, we will have a totally new world and a new man. We will have individuals, not crowds, not mobs. And every individual is so unique that to force him to become part of a crowd is to destroy him, his uniqueness. He could have contributed immensely to the world, but that was possible only if he was left alone -- supported, helped, but not directed.

Everywhere now there is a vast generation gap. The parents are responsible for it, because they have been trying to impose their ideologies, political, social, religious, philosophical -- all kinds of things they are trying to impose* on their children. And this is for the first time something strange has happened in the world of which they are not aware. In the past, just five hundred years before, the generation gap did not exist for the simple reason.... It does not exist even now in very primitive societies.

The child starts working with his father when he is seven years old, eight years old. If the father is a woodcutter, he becomes a woodcutter. Naturally the father knows more about woodcutting, and the child never becomes young the way today children become young.

You send them to the schools, to the university. By the time they come back home, they are twenty-five year old, twenty-six year old. They are fully adult. They have intelligence of their own. They have their logic, their rationality. You cannot behave with them in the same way as in the past all parents have behaved with their children.

A seven-year-old children is a totally different phenomenon. He grows with his father. By the time he is twenty-five, he is already old. In fact the youth is a contemporary phenomenon. In primitive societies there is childhood, maturity, but there is no gap where somebody is simply young -- doing nothing, no responsibility, supported financially, being given all kinds of education.

By the time he returns home, you cannot expect him to be a Jew or a Christian or a Mohammedan, but that is your expectation. You cannot expect him not to argue with you. That is disrespectful. To answer your parents, that is disrespectful. But things have changed immensely.

A new phenomenon of youth has come into existence, and that is the gap. And the gap is going to be bigger and bigger, because in many fields your boy knows more than you know. When he comes from the university back home, your children know much more than you. You cannot expect the same old relationship when father always knew more, when older people always knew more, because there was no other school than experience.

Now there are schools, colleges, universities. They give him so much that no parent knows it. The children cannot have the same respect towards these ignorant people as they used to have before. Something has to be done by the parents that even these children can have again the same trust. But something very new they have to do: they have to accept that they are ignorant about many things. "You know many things because you have been educated. And we are ready and willing to learn from you." It is against their ego, but there is no other way. They have to give respect to their children and their knowledge. That is the only way to bridge the gap.

Then the children will also feel gratitude for the parents, because they supported, they educated them.

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Without them, they would have not been anywhere. And still they don't have the ego. Still although they are older, they want to learn from their own children. That is the only possibility to bridge the gap.

It was a constant problem for me in my university. I have been expelled from many colleges and many universities. For the simple reason because I knew more than the professor. I was reading so much, and the professor had stopped reading thirty years before when he passed his Ph.D. and became a professor. He was finished. But in these thirty years so much has grown. These past thirty years man has grown in every dimension of knowledge, more than in three thousand years he has been able.

So when I entered the philosophical class my professor had no idea of Jean-Paul Sartre, no idea of Jaspers, Martin Heidegger, Soren Kierkegaard. Those names were not part of his education, because when he was studying these people were not in existence. They were not part of curriculum. And what he remembered was Bosanquet, Kant, Hegel, Feuerbach; now they are all outdated. They have been replaced by better minds, far more intelligent. I knew all about Kant and Hegel and Bosanke*, but I knew much more about Wittgenstein, Bertrand Russell, Sartre, Marcel. They had no idea of these people.

It was a strange situation, because on every point they were feeling defeated. I was expelled just for a simple reason. The professors complained continuously against me, that I am a disturbance, that I don't allow them to move a single inch without days' argument. And when we are going to finish the course? This boy seems to be not interested in the course and he brings such names which we have never heard. And now in our old age we are not going to read all that he is reading. And it is very awkward before other students to feel that you know nothing about the latest development in philosophy.

My principals will call me and they will say, "We know perfectly well that you are not wrong. You are not being expelled for doing anything wrong. I feel sad and sorry for you, and I want you to forgive me, but we cannot lose the professor. He is our old, well-reputed professor. And he has threatened that either you will be in the university or he will be. He's given his resignation." They showed me his resignation. They said, "Either you expel that boy or accept our resignation."

I said, "It is better you expel me, because I am doing here, I will do somewhere else. But your college, your university will miss a well-reputed professor. And I don't want him in his old age to find another job somewhere else. No, that is not for me to do. That is ugly. You call the professor, give him his resignation back, and tell him that I am being expelled."

I have seen tears in my principals', in my vice-chancellors' eyes that they are expelling somebody who has done no wrong. And I said to them, "You need not feel sorry about it. Although I have not done anything wrong, but I have something far more dangerous and that is making the professor feel embarrassed continuously every day."

Now these professors could have bridged the gap. They could have simply said, that "Perhaps you are right and we are wrong; but the reason is that we studied thirty years before, and we don't know anything what has happened within these years. Wittgenstein -- the name we have heard for the first time from you.

So naturally we cannot argue."

Just this much was needed, and they would have gained my respect that they are capable men who can accept even ignorance. They are humble people who can say clearly, that "I don't know, so you please don't bring these thirty years in. What I know I can discuss with you with full confidence, but you bring people's name, theories, ideas of which we know nothing. But just to pretend that we know, we argue with you and naturally we are defeated, because we are not really aware of what you are saying and we don't understand the implications of it."

They had known Aristotle and his logic, but they had no idea that the modern physics has gone beyond Aristotle and his whole logic is proved wrong. Now I was reading Albert Einstein whose whole life experiments, philosophy simply cuts Aristotle from the roots, who have been dominant figure for two thousand years in the world of logic. He is thought to be the father of logic in West.

They were not aware of... that Albert Einstein has already finished. There is no Aristotle anymore of any significance. They had known Euclid and his geometry, but they were not aware that now his geometry is no more applicable. Modern physics has developed non-Euclidian geometry, has to invent it. They were simply shocked, because they had never thought that Euclid can be wrong.

Euclid says that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. Perfectly right, but Albert Einstein says there are no straight lines in existence. And you cannot draw a straight line; that is impossibility, existentially impossible. Euclid or no Euclid, you cannot draw a straight line.

And when I said this to one of my professor, he said, "This is strange. I can draw." I said, "You draw it on the floor. The earth is round. If you go on drawing it, finally it will become a circle." So the small 1/08/07

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straight line was just illusory. It was an arc, it was not straight.

Euclid says two parallel lines can never meet. And Einstein says they meet. Because two parallel lines cannot be created in the first place, whatever you do. And according to Euclid the definition of the line is that it has length, but it has no breadth. How can you draw a line which has no breadth, only length? Only in imagination, you cannot draw it on the board. Howsoever small may be the breadth of it, it is there.

Euclid says the point has neither length nor breadth, but you cannot draw a point. Magnify it and you will see it has both. Even when it was so small, visibly smallest possible, then too it has both the things which Euclid is denying.

So it was difficult for them, but the difficulty was simply their ego. If they have accepted, that "Perhaps you know better because you have been educated and you have been learning things which we were never educated" they would have all my respect, all my trust, and there would have been no problem. I would have dropped the argument.

I had told them, that "If you simply accept your ignorance about the point, I will not raise it again, because I don't want in any way to let you down. But you insist that you know. Then I am going to fight to the very end and prove that your knowledge is wrong." This is the same question with generations, with professors, with students, with teachers and their students, with fathers and their sons. It is the same question: that the older party is not ready to accept its ignorance.

In the past there was no need. The older party knew always more than the younger, so the question never arose. But now the younger generation knows more than the older generation, so we have to change our attitudes. Otherwise the gap will go on increasing. It is already too big.

Parents and children are no more on talking terms. They meet only when there is some need, either on the child's side or on the father's side. Otherwise there is no communication. They never sit together, they never chitchat, they never joke with each other, they never laugh with each other. There is no relationship.

A tremendous revolution has to happen, and the responsibility certainly lies on the older generation.

You cannot put the new young people such a great responsibility; they are too young. But the older people can understand that the situation between the generations has changed. With the chance of the situation your attitude should change. You should be more respectful to the younger people. Then they will not become hippies. If you are respectful to your children, they will not become drug addicts. This is simply the gap, that they don't have any communication with you.

They have communication only with people of their own age. All are inexperienced. So if one is taking drug, the other starts taking drug. If one is becoming a communist, the other starts becoming a communist.

If one declares to be atheism, others start following atheistic ideas. Now they have to communicate only with their own age group, which is very dangerous because they are all inexperienced. And you cannot dump the whole responsibility on those young people. They are so young; older generation should take some steps, approach closer to the new generation, and that can be done only if you are not trying to be proved that, "We are older than you, higher than you, more knowledgeable than you, holier than you" --

then the gap is going to become bigger.

Now here you can see it: I don't say to my people that you have to believe in me or you have to accept whatever I say to you. My basic thing is that you learn doubting. I teach doubt, and strangely, they trust me.

This is how life functions, in a very mysterious way. Their parents say, "Believe in us," their priests say,

"Believe in us," and they don't believe. They refuse. I say, "Doubt!", because doubt is my fundamental teaching; "Be skeptical. Never believe anything unless you experience it."

Giving them so much respect, allowing them to doubt everything, allowing them to be skeptical -- even about me -- naturally creates a respect, a love, a trust for the man. This man cannot deceive you. This man cannot indoctrinate you. His whole approach is of doubt -- how he can indoctrinate you?

I don't call them my followers. I call them my friends, my fellow travelers. The very idea of leader and follower is rotten, out of date. With the leader, the new generation cannot communicate. The new generation needs friends. And it is the older generation's responsibility to fulfill the need. If they need friends, why you should unnecessarily impose yourself as a leader? Friendship is far more closer, far more beautiful, and in friendship there is communion.

My people can listen to me with immense trust -- and I am teaching them doubt! They can listen to me with immense silence -- and I am teaching them to be skeptical.

Q:* YOU MEAN SKEPTICAL OF THINGS AROUND THEM, BUT NOT OF THEMSELVES?

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A:* About everything. Unless you find the truth, that you cannot doubt, you have to go on doubting.

Doubt is the method of eliminating everything that is wrong. When everything wrong is eliminated, what is left is truth.

Doubt is something like a candle: first the flame burns the wax, but ultimately it burns itself; the wax is gone, then the flame is also gone. Exactly the same is the situation of doubt. It is a beautiful phenomenon. It doubts and goes on doubting, eliminating the wax, but when all that can be doubted is finished, doubt itself has to commit suicide -- there is nothing else to doubt. You have come face to face with something which is indubitable, and that is what I call the truth... about everything.

And when you come to experience the truth -- in any dimension of life -- you are so immensely enriched, that whoever taught you to doubt, you will feel grateful towards the man for your whole life, because without him you would have never reached to this experience, to this space, to this ecstasy. If you had believed, you would have remained with your dead belief.

A Christian believes, because Jesus says, "Believe. Have faith," so for two thousands years they are believing and having faith, and what they have gained? What is their achievement? Just two thousand years of bloodshed -- murdering, killing, wars, burning alive people -- and that all in the name of God, in the name of Jesus Christ....

But the responsibility is of Jesus Christ himself. He was telling people to believe. That means he was telling people to be hypocrites. That's what belief means: you don't know and yet you pretend that you know. You worship God -- you don't know -- and yet you are praying to something that you don't know. Is this the way of intelligence? Is this the way to grow, mature? This is the way of remaining retarded.

Jesus is responsible for millions of people who have remained retarded, because he taught belief. But this is true also of Mohammed, this is true also of other religious leaders -- the whole past is based on belief systems. And the result you can see: the whole mess in the world.

My approach is based on doubt, on agnosticism, on skepticism, because these are the ways to eliminate anything that is not true.

Q:* WHAT'S THE MAJOR BELIEF THAT YOU THINK NEEDS TO BE ELIMINATED?

A:* God is the major belief that has to be eliminated, because every other thing hangs with God. God eliminated means prophets, messiahs, saviors, messengers -- all are eliminated. Heaven, hell -- all are eliminated. With God eliminated, we can clean the whole mind of man. All rubbish will simply disappear. It can exist only with God. He is the center of the madness of man. He is the greatest block against human intelligence and its evolution.

Just think if there is no God -- then there are no holy scriptures, then there are no popes, no prophets.

Then you cannot depend on anybody; you have to depend on yourself. In the beginning it is a little scary, but soon you will start finding strength in yourself, in your independence.

How long man has been moving like blind people, following somebody who himself is blind? Blinds are leading blind people for millions of years. Jesus Christ has no experience of God, because there is no God, so how he can have the experience of God? He may have hallucinated. He may have imagined, he may have dreamt, but there is no God anywhere. Existence is all. And the very idea of God creates a split in existence: the creator and the creation -- and that is the root cause of all other splits.

All the people who are suffering from schizophrenia may never know that the basic schizophrenia comes from the split between God and existence. Then you are continuously in split: your body wants to do one thing, your mind says that is wrong. Because your religion teaches you celibacy and your body wants to make love. You are torn apart. If you listen to the body you will feel guilty. If you listen to the mind you will become a pervert sexual. In both the cases you are going to be a loser. So emphatically and absolutely I say, "God is the greatest lie that has to be removed from human consciousness. And once man is free from God, hell and heaven, sin and virtue, his intelligence is free to grow. All the barriers have been removed.

And it is his intelligence will be now decisive -- about his actions -- and he will be himself responsible. And each act brings its own punishment or its own reward, so there is no need to wait for the last judgement day!

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your anger, you have suffered the punishment.

In my vision every action has its intrinsic reward or punishment. So a man of intelligence soon starts finding what are the acts which bring you happiness, joy, blissfulness, and what are the actions which create misery, suffering. There is no need to wait for the last judgement day, there is no need to wait after death --

you will be thrown into hell or into heaven. Each moment completes itself.

And if you are the person who is responsible, totally responsible, then certainly each of your action will show that responsibility. Right now you can dump everything on God, everything on past life, everything on devil. But if God is removed, devil is gone. Devil is God's shadow. They cannot exist separate from each other. God needs the devil, the devil needs the God.

You will be surprised to know that the world devil and the word divine come from the same Sanskrit root. Divine and devil from the same Sanskrit root, which is very significant. It means they are just two branches of one tree and they can exist only together, perhaps like two sides of a coin: you cannot separate them.

Once man feels free from god and devil and all nonsense, he is free from churches, free from temples, free from mosques, synagogues -- a tremendous sense of freedom. And to act responsibly, because you are going to suffer from your act or to rejoice from your act. Your act is decisive itself. Nobody else is going to decide for you. Then easily a intelligent person will sort out -- perhaps he will fall once in a while into the wrong place -- but he will not fall twice in the same place. And that is the way of learning: commit as many mistakes you can, but don't commit the same mistake again. That's how one matures, one becomes more understanding, becomes more clear. And all this ultimately leads to enlightenment, because you cannot depend on praying, you have to find something else.

Prayer is addressed to a God. If there is no God, all prayers are meaningless. Meditation is not addressed to anybody. It is an inner journey of being silent, of being more and more peaceful, of being more and more alert and aware. A moment comes when your consciousness is so clear, so luminous, that time stops, that thoughts stop -- simply you are, in your utter purity -- and that experience I call religiousness. For it you need not go to any church, you need not belong to any crowd, you need not have any holy scripture; for that, all that is needed is an inward journey. And that's what I am teaching my people.

Okay?

The Last Testament, Vol 2

Chapter #13

Chapter title: None

2 September 1985 pm in Jesus Grove

Archive code: 8509025

ShortTitle: LAST213

Audio:

Yes

Video:

Yes

Length: 47 mins

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

INTERVIEW WITH DIETER KRONZUCKER, ZDF TV, (CH 2, NATIONAL) WEST GERMANY

QUESTION: WE WANT TO DO AN ABOUT TEN MINUTES' INTERVIEW. I CAN IMAGINE THAT

THE QUESTIONS WHERE YOU NEED LONG ANSWERS, BUT THERE MIGHT BE QUESTIONS

WHERE THE ANSWERS COULD BE RELATIVELY SHORT.

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ANSWER: I will try my best. But I have to give you a full answer. You can edit it, there is no problem.

But I must do justice to your question.

Q: YOU HAVE BEEN QUITE SILENT TO THE OUTSIDE WORLD FOR FOUR YEARS -- IN WORDS, I MEAN. WHY DID YOU CHOOSE NOW TO TALK TO THE SANNYASINS AGAIN, AND ALSO TO

GRANT INTERVIEWS LIKE THIS?

A: I have been silent as a device to get rid of all those people who were hanging around me because of my words. Their approach to me was intellectual, of the head, and my work is concerned with the heart. The moment I became silent, they slowly slowly dropped out. When I found that only people have remained who need not in any way to cling to my words, they are absolutely contented just by my presence and silence, then I started speaking. These are my people with whom I want to speak.

Q: BUT YOU ALSO SPEAK TO THE PRESS NOW.

A: I am speaking to the press now because my people are around the world, and I am not going anywhere. My words have to reach to everybody -- not only to my sannyasins. There are millions of other people who would like to know what I think.

In such a critical moment in the history of humanity, when things are really in a very dangerous state --

a third world war can happen and can destroy the whole human life. AIDS is spreading, and without a third world war, it can destroy almost two-third of human beings. This is not the moment for me to be silent, I should say something. There are many people who may not be sannyasins, but who would like to know my approach, what can be done to prevent this calamity that is just there on the horizon.

Q: WOULD YOU LIKE ALL THE PEOPLE IN THE WORLD TO BE SANNYASIN, OR ARE THEY A CHOSEN FEW?

A: It depends on them. I don't have any desire that anybody should be a sannyasin. It is enough for me that if he is available to me, that he is ready to listen, ready to understand. I do not expect anybody to believe in me, just give consideration to what I say. That's enough. If that gives you the urge to become a sannyasin, that is your decision.

Q: YOUR TEACHING IS VERY PHILOSOPHICAL FOR THE UNEDUCATED MIND. SO DO YOU

THINK THAT YOUR TEACHING IS MORE FIT FOR THE BEST EDUCATED, AND FOR THE MORE

AFFLUENT?

A: Certainly, because according to me, religion is the highest luxury in human existence. The poor cannot understand the music of Mozart, that does not mean that the music of Mozart should not exist. It only means that the poor should be raised to a situation where he can understand Mozart. The poor cannot understand Picasso, but that is no fault of Picasso.

I am trying my best to my uttermost ability, to make things as simple as possible. I do not use any philosophical jargon, I simply use words everybody uses. But still, I know it is difficult for many people to understand -- not only that they are poor, not only that they are uneducated. Even for many who are not poor and not uneducated, it is difficult because they are having such closed minds, so many prejudices. They only hear, they don't listen. They don't allow an opportunity for anything new that goes against their conditioning.

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understands me, that will be enough to save this world. Those who do not understand me, don't count.

Q: SO YOU DON'T THINK MUCH OF PEOPLE THAT TRY TO SOFTEN THE POVERTY IN THE

WORLD WITHOUT REMEDY.

A: I do not think. I think that they are criminals. And it is because of those people that poverty has existed up to now. We would have destroyed it long before, but they go on consoling the poor, they go on softening their suffering. They go on helping them somehow, not to revolt.

Q: CAN YOU GIVE A FEW NAMES OF THOSE PEOPLE? EXAMPLES?

A: Religions have done that, without exception. Jesus Christ, Moses, Mohammed, Gautam Buddha, Krishna, and their followers -- their popes, their rabbis and their shankaracharyas, and their Ayatollah Khomeiniacs -- they all have been doing that. They have been keeping the poor, poor by giving him hopes.

Those hopes are nothing but opium.

Q: YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN RELIGIONS, YOU ALSO DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD. YOU ARE

CALLED "BHAGWAN," THE BLESSED ONE. WHO BLESSED YOU THEN?

A: I do not believe in anything. It is not a question of God. I do not believe in believing. My approach is to know, and knowing is a totally different dimension. It starts from doubt, it dos not start from believing.

The moment you believe in something you have stopped inquiring. Belief is one of the most poisonous things to destroy human intelligence. All the religions are based on belief, only science is based on doubt.

And I would like the religious inquiry also to be scientific, based on doubt. So we need not believe, but we can come to know someday the truth of our being and the truth of the whole universe.

Q: YOU HAVE THIS BEAUTIFUL AND VERY EFFICIENT SETTLEMENT HERE IN OREGON.

COULD IT BE EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD, OR DO YOU LIKE TO HAVE IT IN AMERICA?

A: It could be everywhere in the world. I would like it everywhere. Already we have communes around the world, and they are increasing everyday.

And I do not believe in countries -- America or Germany or India. That is nonsense. Humanity is one, and it is time that we should declare that all these maps are creations of stupid politicians. The earth is undivided, and we are all one. I would like that everybody burns his passport, his green card, and everybody declares himself that "This whole earth is mine."

Q: BUT HERE IN OREGON YOU HAVE SOME HARASSMENTS WITH THE OFFICIALS IN THIS

RESPECT?

A: I am enjoying them.

Q: DO YOU MIND TO HAVE THESE HARASSMENTS? OR ARE THEY JUST NUISANCES THAT

YOU HAVE TO...

A: No, I don't mind, and they are not nuisance. They are harassed, I am simply enjoying. They cannot harass me, nobody can harass me. By harassing me, they are unnecessarily harassed. I don't even think about them, they are not worth giving any consideration.

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Q: BHAGWAN, IS IT THAT YOU PLAY WITH WORDS, THAT YOU LIKE TO USE WORDS JUST TO

MAKE FUN OF OTHER PEOPLE? OR IS IT THAT YOU THINK ONLY WITH WORDS, INSTEAD OF

ONLY SILENT COMMUNICATION, YOUR PHILOSOPHY AND YOUR TEACHING CAN BE

TRANSMITTED TO THE PEOPLE?

A: Through silence it can be translated and transmitted only to people who know what silence is, who are meditative, who are in tune with me. Then there is a possibility of transferring. But people who don't know anything of inner silence, they need words. And the problem is, that no word is capable of translating the inner experience. All words become lies, the moment you start saying something true. Truth is beyond words.

So what I do with words, is to demolish prejudices, and I am really hard in demolishing prejudices. I am not concerned with the people I attack. I am concerned with my people, because when I attack Jesus Christ, I am attacking the Christian who is hidden behind my people. I have nothing to do with Jesus Christ, he has done no harm to me, and we have never been in any communication -- friendly or otherwise. But everyone of my people is carrying something of Jesus Christ, something of Adolf Hitler, and something of Buddha. I have to shock these people, and only through shocking them they can be awakened.

Q: DO YOU MIND SOMETIMES, WHEN YOUR TEACHING IS MISUNDERSTOOD?

A: No, I never mind, because I always expect that it will be misunderstood.

Q: IF YOU DECIDE TO GO INTO SILENT COMMUNICATION, OR TO GO AWAY FROM THE

SANNYASIN, WOULD YOU MIND IF THE MOVEMENT OF THE NEO-SANNYASIN WOULD THEN BE

DISSIPATED?

A: I don't mind. I am absolutely non-serious about everything. I take life just as a play. It is good....

(interruption with camera crew)

A: I am answering you, and still listening to him! You can ask the question again, but my answer will be different.

Q: IN CASE YOU WOULD LEAVE THE MOVEMENT OF THE SANNYASIN OUT OF YOUR OWN

REASONS, WOULD YOU MIND IF THIS MOVEMENT THEN WOULD DISSIPATE? OR WOULD YOU

LIKE IT TO GROW BY ITSELF.

A: I have no desires, anything, as far as the future is concerned. I am a man of the moment. This moment, it is so groovy, who cares for tomorrow? If they decide to go on their way, they are independent people. If they decide to remain here together, they are completely free to do that.

I have never imposed anything on them, and I have not made them a crowd. I have made every effort that every sannyasin remains an individual, independent, so whatsoever they feel like doing they will do.

Who I am to decide about their future? I don't even decide about my future, because future is not yet. And the people who decide about future always remains in misery, because the future has no obligation to fulfill your desires. The future goes in its own way. And we are such a tiny part in this immense universe, that to have desires that things should follow according to me, is simply idiotic. I am not interested at all in the next moment. Whatsoever happens in the next moment, if I am here I will enjoy, or if I am somewhere else, I will enjoy it there.

You had asked that I don't believe in God, still my people call me Bhagwan, the Blessed One. It is not a question of somebody else blessing me. It is a question, the moment you realize your being, that very 1/08/07

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realization makes you the blessed one. Just as there are miserable ones -- who makes them miserable? There are suffering ones, who makes them suffering? I am blessed one, not because somebody else blessing, but because of my own realization.

Q: I UNDERSTOOD THAT YOU WERE AGAINST POLITICIANS IN THE WORLD. BUT IF YOU

WOULD COMPARE A SOCIALIST STATE AND A CAPITALIST STATE, IN WHICH WOULD YOU THINK

THE SANNYASIN MOVEMENT COULD GROW BETTER?

A: In a communist state -- not even a socialist. It is growing better in Soviet Union, for the simple reason....

(More interruptions by camera crew)

A: I know your cameraman. He cannot be finished! A German, and finishing so soon, does not look right!

Q: WELL, IT IS TRUE THAT IF ONE TRIES TO COMBINE WHAT YOU SAID, THEN YOU NEED

MORE THAN TEN MINUTES.

A: I certainly need. But you can manage in two parts, in three parts. You can manage. And you have to manage, because Germany somehow, is my country.

I have more sannyasins in Germany than anywhere else. And the German youth is more in tune with me, than in any other country.

Q: WHY IS THAT, YOU THINK?

A: It is a little difficult, because I will not have any proof for it. I have been a German in few lives. So I know the German spirit.

Q: CAN YOU GIVE THE CENTURIES OF THE LIVES YOU HAVE SPENT THERE?

A: I can give you a reference. You can ask Eva Ringe, she has been once my wife in the past, and she is still behaving like a wife towards me! You ask her! Okay?

Q: YOU WERE USING, IN ANOTHER INTERVIEW, THE WORD CIRCUS. WHAT DOES IT MEAN

FOR YOU, CIRCUS?

A: It means to me, that I do not want life to be taken seriously. Seriousness is a kind of psychological disease. Life has to be a fun. Life has to be a rejoicing, a dance, a song, a love affair. In such a small life, being serious is simply wasting the opportunity. That's what I mean when I said it is a circus, it should be everywhere a circus. And we should turn everything in playfulness.

But people are so heavy and long-faces, and so burdened and carrying loads on them, and life is so short! Soon you will be reaching to your grave. Before reaching to the grave, have a little dance, a little drink. That's what I mean by circus. My people are living in a circus, twenty-four hours. (laughter) Rejoicing is my religion! All old religions were renouncing: renounce this, renounce that, go on renouncing till you are completely juiceless. Your saints are just bones, nothing else in them. If your saints have gone to heaven, then I am not going to heaven at all, because what I am going to do with those bored people? Then the best people will be in the hell. All the painters, all the poets, all the dancers, all the actors, 1/08/07

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all the story-writers, novelists, all creative people, all the lovers, all the drunkards, all the gamblers, they will be there -- colorful people.

I don't think hell a bad place. If it is there, then that is the right place to go. It is worth visiting. Heaven will be simply boredom. Saints sitting under the trees, doing nothing, because there is nothing to do.

Q: EATING MANNA.

A: How long? Whole eternity. They will get fed up. In hell, we have everything -- Chinese restaurants, Italian spaghetti -- we have everything. I don't think that if God has any sense he will be in heaven; he will be in hell. If he has any intelligence, then he will be meeting beautiful people there. Hell....

Q: WHAT DO YOU THINK OF PEOPLE WHO SPEND A LOT OF MONEY TO BUY PICASSO AND

SALVADOR DALI?

A: Beautiful people, beautiful people.

Q: DO YOU LIKE THE PAINTINGS OF THOSE...?

A: I like. I like everything that is beautiful, creative. It contributes to life, it makes life worth living.

Only few people have contributed to life's beauty, others are only simply a burden on the earth.

I would like everybody to know something of painting, something of music, something of dancing.

Everybody... every educational institution, rather than simply teaching mathematics and physics and chemistry, and geography and history, should pay a little more attention to dancing, to singing, to painting, to music, to sculpture, because those are the things which will make life more beautiful.

Salvador Dali or Picasso -- they are our cherished geniuses. So whatsoever price one pays, is not enough. It is never enough!

Q: YOU WERE TALKING OF MOZART BEFORE....

A: Yes.

Q: DO YOU LISTEN TO MOZART SOMETIMES NOW?

A: I listen. I only listen to music. Whenever I have time, I am listening music.

Q: IS THE WHOLE WORLD FOR YOU A STAGE? LIKE A THEATER AND... OR IS IT THAT YOU

PUT A STAGE ON THE WORLD?

A: No, the world is a stage. Idiots have made it serious. I want it to become again natural, what it is. It is a stage, it is a circus, and so beautiful circus, with animals, birds, trees, flowers. I am not making it a circus, it is a circus. People have forgotten, I am simply reminding them.

Q: AND IF YOUR FOLLOWERS ARE THE ARTISTS IN THE CIRCUS, WOULD YOU MIND TO

LEAVE THIS PLACE IN OREGON AND GO ANOTHER PLACE WITH THEM?

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India; nobody has ever thought. One day I can suddenly appear in Germany.

Q: DO YOU THINK I AM AFRAID?

A: No. You will be one of my hosts. Why should you be afraid of me?

Q: WHAT IS GERMANY FOR YOU AND YOUR MOVEMENT?

A: I respect the German gut. It is one of the country in the world who has more guts than anybody else.

If the German youth and German courage could make a madman like Adolf Hitler almost become victorious and win over the whole world, the German courage can do anything possible.

And it is not a coincidence that they are attracted to me. Once a German comes to me, he becomes part of me immediately, because he has the courage to take the risk.

There are English people who will think thousand times to be or not to be -- wishy-washy. Germans are simple, straightforward, not phony. Americans are phony, plastic. You cannot depend on them, but you can depend on the German. All...

Q: BUT THEY TAKE EVERYTHING SERIOUS....

A: Once they come to me, they simply change immediately. I have many Germans here, and once they have come to me they have never left me. Others have been coming and leaving, but Germans, once they have come to me, have simply forgotten everything. They are with me. And they are not serious. They have even started understanding jokes.

(More interruptions from camera crew)

Q: I DIDN'T REALIZE THAT YOU WOULD BE THINKING ABOUT THE CUTS WE STILL HAVE TO

DO.

A: I have to think about everything.

Q: I HAVE TO REPEAT THE QUESTIONS AGAIN FOR THE CAMERA. YOU USED THE WORD

CIRCUS FOR THE WORLD. WHAT DOES IT MEAN?

A: It means that the world is just a playground, there is nothing serious in it.

Q: IS THE WHOLE WORLD A STAGE FOR YOU...

A: The whole world is a stage to me, and I am enjoying it so immensely that I don't think anybody ever has enjoyed the world so deeply and so totally. I don't have any idea of guilt, so I can enjoy anything. I don't have any idea of sin, so I can enjoy everything. And I am not following anybody, so the whole world is available to me. I am not under any discipline, I am a totally free person.

And that's my teaching to my sannyasins: be free, enjoy as much as you can. Fill your life with so much joy that when death comes there is no problem to relax into it. You have enjoyed so much, now it is time to relax and go to eternal sleep. So to my people, death is not a problem. Death is a problem only to those who cannot enjoy life. And then comes death and they are in a trouble. They have not lived yet, and death has come.

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To us, it is just the opposite. Any moment, death is welcome, because we are living every moment so deeply that each moment is being turned into an eternity. If death comes next moment, it is perfectly good.

We have done everything, we have loved everybody. We have enjoyed every dance, we have sung every song, now what is more there? Now we will enjoy death too. Only my people die laughing, and only my people give a send-off to a dead sannyasin, dancing. When they put him on the funeral pyre, all my sannyasins are dancing, rejoicing. What more we can do for a man who had lived fully? This is the best send-off.

Q: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

A: Come again. And not just for ten minutes!

The Last Testament, Vol 2

Chapter #14

Chapter title: Awareness Is My Successor

3 September 1985 pm in Jesus Grove

Archive code: 8509035

ShortTitle: LAST214

Audio:

Yes

Video:

Yes

Length: 107 mins

[NOTE: This discourse is published in the book: The Last Testament, Volume 1, as Chapter 6.]

MA YOGA PRATIMA

RAJNEESHPURAM,

OREGON

QUESTION: BELOVED BHAGWAN, CAN ONE BE A DROPOUT AND STILL BE RESPONSIBLE? IS

THERE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DROPPING OUT AND ESCAPISM?

ANSWER: There is tremendous difference between the two. Escaping is an act of cowardliness, because you could not face the situation. You could not find guts enough to encounter whatever was the situation.

You escaped. You showed your back out of fear. The escapist will never be able to forgive himself. How can he forget that he has been cowardly?

The dropout is a totally different phenomenon. He is not dropping out of a particular structure, society, religion, out of fear. In fact he was preventing himself from dropping out, out of fear. His dropout is his declaration of freedom, individuality. His dropout signifies that he is no more part of a crowd, that now he is going to seek and search on his own; that he is no more a follower of Christ or Krishna, that he does not believe in any god or in any hell or heaven.

Now he is becoming a seeker, a searcher. Whatever the consequences he is getting ready to risk everything he has, because unless one risks everything, one cannot find the truth. Truth is not a compromise. It is a total letgo, risking all. Even if you are saving a little bit in case it is needed, you will not find the truth. You are still behaving in a cowardly way. Saving a little bit shows your fear.

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are living in a bondage of many kinds: social, cultural, racial, political, educational. All kinds of chains are around our being. A dropout simply drops out of all these chains. And the moment he decides to drop out, miraculously he finds those chains cannot prevent him. They are only cowbells.

All that was needed was courage and a tremendous sense of freedom, excitement of discoveries, a grounding in one's own self, a responsibility for the first time felt, that "I am alive and I have a responsibility to live with my totality. Otherwise how am I going to answer existence?" Life was given to you and you never lived it. You went on postponing till death destroyed everything.

A dropout is a revolutionary. The escapist is not a revolutionary, he is a reactionary. That difference has to be remembered. My sannyasins are dropouts, not escapists.

Q: YOU HAVE SAID THAT YOU DON'T CARE IF THERE IS ANY SUCCESSOR WHEN YOU ARE

GONE. WHAT DO YOU SEE HAPPENING TO YOUR SANNYASINS, TO RAJNEESHISM, THE MOMENT

YOU DIE?

A: I don't at all think about it. Never does the thought occur to me, for the simple reason that the very idea goes against my approach. The people who are living with me are enjoying the moment. Do you want me alone not to enjoy the moment?

I am teaching everybody to enjoy the moment, and don't be bothered by tomorrow. Living in the moment intelligently, consciously, meditatively, will take care of the future. There is no need for me to give you directives, guidelines for what you have to do when I am gone. That's what all the old religions have done.

Manu gave all the guidelines for Hindus five thousand years ago, and they are still following them.

Everything has changed, nothing of Manu is applicable any more. In fact it is a hindrance to the evolution of Hindus to become contemporaries. Now, Manu has committed a crime against humanity by giving these directives. He did not prove a blessing, he proved himself a curse.

But the same is done by Moses, Mohammed, Mahavira, Jesus, Buddha. On one thing they are all agreed: that when they are gone they have still to control the people who had come into contact with them, who had trusted them. But they don't trust their people.

I trust my people. I know that they are living fully, joyously. They know how to live joyously, how to live fully, and that's enough. I have given them the experience; now the experience will be decisive. And they will have a freedom, because things will change, situations will change. I could give directives that will become hindrances to their growth, but I cannot do that. That is criminal, very criminal.

For example, Mahavira gave the directive to his disciples not to wear shoes. In his time it was perfectly right, because to use leather means you are in some way or other indirectly supporting the killing of animals. And the best leather comes out in a very torturous way. Young calves have to be boiled, and their skin has to be taken off. Then it is soft, very soft. The moment an animal dies his skin becomes hard, then you cannot make beautiful shoes out of it. You can make shoes, but they will not be so soft, so velvety. And the younger the kid the better leather you get, softer leather you get.

Mahavira, seeing this whole scene happening in every town, every city -- young animals being boiled alive -- stopped his people. They were not eating meat, but they were using shoes at least, and that leather comes from torture. But Mahavira becomes decisive for the future too; he makes it a rule that his sannyasins should never wear shoes.

This is going too far. Now, I'm wearing shoes which are not made of leather. Mahavira had no idea of rubber; he had no idea of synthetic leather. He had no idea that shoes can be made of canvas, of cloth -- of so many things. But we cannot condemn him for not having the idea; there was no possibility of that. All he knew was that he had forbidden his people to use leather, but he should have left them open for the future.

For example, Mohammed said to his disciples that they can marry four wives. But that became a guideline for the future, and now Mohammedans everywhere are insisting that this is a question of their religion. They have to marry four wives. In Mohammed's time there was so much war, murder, arson, that the population of men and women had come to that proportion -- one man, four women -- because men were being killed in war. It was simply compassionate of Mohammed to say that one man should marry four wives; nothing was wrong in it. But to make it a guideline for the future, forever, is dangerous.

Now the situation is different. If one man marries four wives, then three men will remain bachelors. The situation has completely reversed, but the stupid mind of followers is such that they will not see the point.

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Why had Mohammed insisted on marrying four women? So that three are not left spinsters, because they will suffer unnecessary psychological repressions, they will become prostitutes, they will destroy the whole moral structure. But now the situation is just the opposite: if a Mohammedan marries four wives then he is driving three men to remain celibate. Those three people are not going to sit silently, they will have to do something.

Then all kinds of perversions -- the same perversions that Mohammed was trying to avoid -- are all over Mohammedan countries. Because you are richer you can get as many wives as you want -- and four is not the limit, it is the minimum. Mohammed himself married nine wives; that is example enough for rich emirs and sheiks and oil kings. They can marry hundreds of women -- all the beautiful women of their country are brought to them -- but what about all those hundreds of young people who are deprived of their wives and their rights? You are driving them to homosexuality. You are driving them into other perversions, sodomy.

It is a very common phenomenon in Mohammedan countries -- men making love to animals. It is worse than rape, because the innocent animal is in your hands. Whatever you want to do you can do. When you rape a woman, in some way or other she cooperates. Otherwise it is not easy. Perhaps deep down she desires it, because whenever a woman is raped -- the man is certainly criminal, I am not saving him from his crime

-- the woman is not absolutely innocent. In the unconscious somewhere there is a desire that somebody should find her so beautiful, so irresistible, that he will even be ready to commit a crime. That is a kind of tremendous satisfaction, a confirmation of her beauty, of her charm.

I know women who have been raped, and I have asked both parties. The man who was raping her was also puzzled that the woman was cooperating, she was not screaming, shouting or doing something.

Otherwise, if a woman is really against it, even her husband cannot make love to her -- what to say about rape. She can bite, she can hit, she can throw stones, she can shout. She can do everything, but the poor animal cannot do anything. The poor animal cannot even understand what is happening. This is sheer abuse.

Children are being sexually abused.... And for all this, Mohammed is responsible. And the amazing part of the story is that in all Mohammedan countries there are more bachelor men than anywhere else, because so many women are taken away by the richer people.

For homosexuality, death is the only penalty. On the one hand you are driving people towards homosexuality and on the other hand you make it the greatest crime, to be punished by death. You are putting such a pressure on people that they cannot even be homosexuals, so they are bound to move towards animals. At least there is no law in Mohammedan countries against animals.

Nobody should try to make any guidelines for the future. The future is always open. I am not willing to be a participant in a crime which has been committed for thousands of years. I absolutely decline to stand with Buddha, Mahavira, Krishna, Mohammed, Jesus, Moses. No, that is not my company.

I want to make a complete breakthrough about everything, and this is one of the most fundamental things. There is hidden in it a deep desire to dominate people, even when you are gone -- to put it in other words, that the dead should be dominating the living. That's what has been happening all around the world.

The living are not given freedom even to choose their own course, to choose their own moralities, to choose, according to the time, what is right and what is wrong.

Those people were very much concerned, because they were writing, they were dictating rules and regulations in detail. In Buddhist scriptures there are 33,000 rules for a monk. People have come to seek freedom, they have come to seek truth. What they are getting is a strange psychological slavery in its place, and that too even for coming generations.

So when I am asked whether I am going to make somebody my successor, I say absolutely no. I am giving my people clarity, understanding, awareness. That is going to be my successor.

Every one of my sannyasins has to decide for himself. I have given him that much understanding, and I am making every effort to make him more and more conscious, so there is no need for him to be dictated to about things which are absolutely new by people who are dead, and who had no idea about those things.

For example, none of these prophets had any idea about AIDS. We don't know what else is going to be in the future, but none of these people could have given any guidelines about AIDS. In fact, they have given guidelines which are very dangerous. Mohammed says that when there are a few Mohammedans eating together, they should eat from one plate. Now that is risking AIDS.

Eating out of one plate is dangerous if any single one of them is carrying AIDS, if in some way his saliva gets into the food by his hands. In the East people eat with their hands; the fingers can carry the saliva to the food, and the food is being eaten by everybody. When Mohammed gave that idea it was to give them companionship, friendship -- and even if a stranger passes by he should be invited. Now, this is absolutely 1/08/07

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dangerous. Jesus practiced this every day. He would drink from a cup, then he would pass the same cup to somebody else. He would drink from it and then it would go on being passed. It was thought to be a great blessing; wine touched by Jesus' mouth has become somehow divine. And that practice is still being continued.

What are they going to do now that all the information about AIDS is becoming more and more clear every day? This religious practice is no more religious, it is illegal. It is immoral. It is sickening, nauseating.

It should be stopped immediately. But Christians cannot stop it; their master did it, and their master told his disciples to do it. It will be going against the master. But AIDS is far more powerful than your dead master.

And he had no idea about it, so I don't condemn him; but I do condemn these idiots who will insist that this is their practice and they will have to continue it.

I am not going to give a single instruction about anything. In fact there is no need. These people had to give instructions because they left people blind. They gave only beliefs to them; they never gave them consciousness, awareness. They never gave them the capacity to decide on their own. They never made them responsible for their own life.

Yes, they gave them a blind man's stick, and directions on how to move so you can get to the door. But the house is being continuously renovated, continuously remade. Doors are being changed, windows are being changed, and the old blind man goes on finding the way with the old instructions.

No, I don't want to give my people sticks. I want to give them eyes. And the people who ask me who is going to be my successor are asking because that's how it has always been: somebody should succeed, and I should give clear-cut instructions about what you have to do and what you have not to do when I am gone.

The people who ask me the question think that I am very irresponsible, that I will simply die and leave the sannyasins without any instructions, without any moral code, without any ten commandments. They do not understand me.

I love my people so much that I cannot create any hindrance in their life in the future. I cannot give them any instructions. I am giving them eyes so they can see where the door is for themselves. Why should I give them a map of the house when the house is continuously changing? And it has been proved by these five thousand years that all codes, all religions, all ethical systems have failed for the simple reason that they were trying to decide the future, which was not in their hands. Their intention was good, but their understanding was not enough.

I want my sannyasins to inherit my freedom, my awareness, my consciousness. And each sannyasin has to be my successor, has to be me. There is no need for anybody to dominate. There is nobody for anybody to dictate to. They are on their own. If they want to be together they can be together. Out of their own freedom, it is their choice and their decision. If they want to move free they have all the rights to move free.

So the thought never occurs to me. All that occurs to me is that the sooner I can make my people more clear about life and its complexities the better, because nobody knows when I may be gone. Before that my people have to be capable of blissfully and joyously giving me a send-off.

And I will not be leaving any ethical code, any structure to be followed. They will have to make it. And they will have to remember that they make it only for themselves, not for the future. They will have to do the same as I am doing for them. They will have to keep alert, because it is very easy to be tempted so that the new generation does not get lost. It is better to get lost than to be imprisoned.

So I am not giving you any structure, any instructions, but only clarity, understanding, consciousness.

Remember, the same thing has to be done for the future generation. One day the same question will be before you. What are you going to decide for the younger generation of sannyasins for when you are gone?

Nobody has the right to decide for anybody else. Help the person to grow, to mature. Help the person to stand on his own feet, this is real compassion.

And my compassion does not allow me to say a single word about the future. I am absolutely concerned with the present. And if the present is golden, the future born out of it will be even more golden.

Q: YOU SAY THAT INDIA IS A DEAD COUNTRY -- MENTALLY, PHYSICALLY AND

ECONOMICALLY DEAD. HOW DID THIS HAPPEN, AND IS THERE ANY WAY NOW TO AVOID A CATASTROPHE?

A: There is always a way. But the problem is the people who are almost dead, because their tradition is so old, so rotten, and it has molded their mind, their consciousness. It has given them their guidelines on 1/08/07

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how to live, what to do, what not to do, and the prejudices are so long programmed in their mind that they have almost reached to their bone marrow.

The alternative is there, the catastrophe can be avoided-but who is going to listen? The trouble is not that there is no way. Everything can be changed but they are all against change. If the catastrophe were something from the outside, it would not be difficult to prevent it, to divert it. The catastrophe is within India's own soul. The cancer is there, but they are not ready for any surgery because they don't believe it is cancer. They believe it is their great heritage. Otherwise, for thirty years I was continuously giving them the way to get out of this stupidity -- and in thirty years they have doubled the population, in thirty years they have become twice as poor, they have gone far deeper into darkness.

I was telling them to drop this idea that God gives birth to children, that you cannot prevent God from doing it. If God is giving birth to children, don't be afraid: use the pill, use all birth control methods. If God still wants to give you a child -- he is powerful, omnipotent, what can the poor pill do against him? -- he will manage some way, he will have to find some way. You don't be worried about him, he is not somebody who can be prevented just by a pill. If your God can be prevented by a pill, then it is better to worship the pill than the God. The pill is more powerful.

But nobody seems to listen. People go on giving birth to children. Nobody is ready to change any old, dead idea. Even if you logically prove it to them and they don't have any argument, still they will do the same.

For example, amongst the Jainas in India, the oldest religion, vegetarianism has gone to stupid extremes

-- so much so that my grandmother did not allow tomatoes in the house because they are red and look like meat. Up to my eighteenth year I had not tasted the poor tomato. It was not possible to bring a tomato into the house.

I have been trying to convince Jainas to start eating vegetarian eggs. But the very word egg was enough.

They said, "You cannot deceive us. How can an egg be vegetarian?" I explained to them that it is unfertilized, there is no life in it because the male sperm has not reached the egg. But the very idea of eating eggs is impossible.

They are missing in their food many essential proteins, vitamins -- so essential that without them their intelligence cannot grow, but will remain retarded. It is an absolute necessity for Jainas to accept the vegetarian egg.

Not a single Jaina has received a Nobel prize, and they are well-educated, more than anybody else in India. They are rich; you will not find a single Jaina beggar in a whole country of beggars. The whole country is full of beggars, but you will not find a single Jaina beggar. They are all middle class or super high class, well-educated, educated in the West in the great universities of the world, but something is missing.

Their intelligence does not seem to shine.

Their food is insufficient, it lacks some essential thing. And I have told them, "You can go to the medical college, you can inquire what are the essentials for intelligence to grow, and you can show your food that you eat. Are those essential elements in it or not? You need not listen to me, just go to the scientist, to the doctor, to the chemist, and find out. You certainly need something like the vegetarian egg."

But the very word egg simply disturbs them. They have not accepted the idea.

Now, Jews are not a big majority in the world; they are a small minority, but proportionately they get more Nobel prizes than anybody else. Their food should be looked at. Why have they produced more intelligent people? This whole century has been revolving around three Jews: Karl Marx, Sigmund Freud, Albert Einstein. These three persons have made this whole century. And what is the contribution of all others? It must be looked into.

And it is not only these three people; most of the Nobel prizes go to the Jews. They don't have anything special, but their food should be accurately estimated, and it should be made known to everybody in the world.

I have been telling Hindus and Jainas that they should start circumcision as compulsory. They would simply say, "You are crazy. We are not Jews, we are not Mohammedans -- and circumcision? You want us to become Jews and Mohammedans? And nobody ever in the whole history of India was as crazy as you, talking about circumcision."

But I told them that circumcision is going to become almost compulsory all over the world sooner or later. It is hygienic, it prevents many sicknesses, many diseases. And a few Jewish thinkers even have said

-- and there may be some truth in it -- that when a child is circumcised, he is so small, so delicate, that on the one hand just cutting the foreskin does no harm to the child. But on the other hand, it gives a certain 1/08/07

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shock to his mind -- and that is the reason they have been receiving so many Nobel prizes.

This is a very strange kind of argument; but there is a possibility, because the genitals are joined with the head. The sex center is in the head, and the small child, if he is circumcised, certainly gets a shock, and that shock will vibrate to the very sex center in his brain. That may be doing something. It has to be studied; I am not saying it is true, but it is worth studying, it is worth inquiring into scientifically. But one thing is absolutely certain, that circumcision is healthy, is hygienic; and it does not mean that because Jews do it, you cannot do it.

Now, I could not convince a single Hindu, a single Buddhist, a single Sikh, a single Jaina, in favor of circumcision. They simply said, "Don't bring such strange ideas to us. You may convince a few young people...."

I was staying in the palace of the Maharani of Gwalior, who had invited me. It is one of the most beautiful palaces in India and perhaps in the world, with miles and miles of beautiful gardens around it. It has everything: lakes, gardens, fountains, and many small cottages for guests. The main palace is all marble.

She had chosen a very beautiful cottage for me to stay in, just half on the lake, half on the ground.

Every day, for seven days, they were having religious discourses. There was a big congregation because it was a palatial function; nearabout twenty thousand people were there. Her son heard me and was immensely impressed. She was also impressed, and the next morning she came to see me and she would not sit on the chair. I told her, "You are old." She said, "No, I cannot do that. Please don't stop me sitting at your feet. And first I have to confess one thing: that I have prevented my son from coming to you. Forgive me. I was afraid because he seemed too much excited by last night, and he is continuously talking about you and what you said.

"I became afraid he may get too impressed by you. And we are a traditional family, royal family, and he is my successor. I cannot allow him to be impressed by you, although I myself am impressed, but I am mature enough that I can intellectually be convinced by you, yet I will go on doing whatever I was doing.

That has been our tradition, and I cannot betray that tradition."

I said, "You can betray your intelligence, and you cannot betray some dead ancestor thousands of years old who has made rules and regulations for you? But you are ready to betray your intelligence.... And you say you are impressed, and still you prevent your son from meeting me?"

She said, "I am sorry, but I will not allow him. And he cannot go against my wishes because he knows I can deprive him of the inheritance and the inheritance can go to his younger brother."

With this threat he had been prevented. Later on, after five, six years, he met me in Delhi -- he had become a member of parliament -- and he said, "I have been trying hard since you stayed in my house, but my mother -- if she comes to know that I met you in Delhi, she has threatened that she will deprive me, and it is too much a risk. She is one of the richest queens in India, and I will have to wait till I succeed her, and then my first thing is to come to you and be with you. All sorts of nonsense has been told to me; all kinds of religious teachers and saints go on coming to the house, but you were the first man I became interested in.

They are all boring, but I have to listen to them because of the inheritance."

I said, "You are also a coward. If you had really the mind of a seeker, you would have said to your mother,'Keep your inheritance yourself. I renounce it.' "

He said, "Yes, I don't have that much guts, but it has left a wound in me that my mother is threatening me. And she is also impressed by you. She does not say that you are wrong, she says that a young person should not come in contact with such a person: 'He can be dangerous. You are immature. You first become mature.'" I said, "So that you can become a hypocrite, in other words; so you can intellectually say it is right, but I am going to do what I am expected to do."

This is the problem in India. Indira was absolutely convinced by me, and was sincere and honest enough to say that, "I cannot do anything, because if I follow what you are saying -- which seems to be absolutely the right thing to do -- then I will lose my power, because then I will be going against my illiterate, uneducated voters. If I accept your suggestion, then my voters will desert me, my cabinet will be against me.

"And you know perfectly well that my deputy prime minister is Morarji Desai, who is continuously talking against you. If he comes to know that I am trying to implement any idea of yours, I am gone. And that's what he is waiting for, so he can become the prime minister if somehow I can be thrown out. And this will be the easiest thing to drive my voters against me.

"So I cannot do anything. It is cowardly, I accept, but this is how politics is. We have to look for many things, watch for many things. I read your books, I want to come to see you in Poona, but my cabinet people 1/08/07

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prevent me. They say, 'Even going to his ashram in Poona you will be creating trouble for yourself.

Immediately Hindu priests will be against you, Vinoba Bhave, who controls all the Gandhians, will be against you, Mohammedans will be against you. Everybody will be against you, so you can choose.'"

She could never come. For seven years she was trying, almost deciding the date and then postponing it again. So I say there is a way, but it is not going to be followed. India is going to die. It is just on the verge of death. Its leaders are impotent, its people are retarded. Its religious leaders are in favor of the past.

You will be surprised to know that in India the theory of evolution is not accepted. They have just the opposite theory, the theory of involution. They say man was made perfect by God, and in a way it looks logical. If God makes man, then certainly he will make a perfect man. Why he should he make a monkey and then the monkey will become a man? So Indian mythology says God created man perfect, and then man started falling down.

So they have four stages, four ages; they compare these four ages to the four legs of a stool. The first they call the age of truth, when man was perfect and truth was his life. When man fell from the first stage, the stool became a tripod with three legs, one leg missing. The first age is called satyuga, the age of truth.

The second age is called simply tretha, three legs. Man has lost something very essential, he is unbalanced. And in the next fall he loses one leg more; now he has only two, and that is called dwapur, a very unbalanced state. A stool standing on two feet is ready to fall any moment; how it is managing to keep on standing is a miracle.

Now man has lost all balance, and this is involution. Man is going down and down and down. And the fourth, in which we are living according to the Indian mind, has only one leg left -- a crippled man who has lost three-fourths of his being. This age they call kaliyuga, the age of darkness.

So according to the ideology, their philosophy, what is happening is expected. That is also a difficulty.

They say it was bound to happen; after the fourth age there is nothing but death. Just a little fall more and civilization disappears. So they have some intellectual, traditional background also for the coming death --

and to accept it. Their leaders are cowards because they have to depend on the votes of the people. They cannot do anything against the people and their opinion and their tradition.

So although I say there is a way -- I am the way -- there is no possibility that the way should ever be realized. India has come to a point of old age when one has to accept death as natural. Perhaps if this idea is made available to all Indians -- that they are on the verge of death, either change or die -- there may be a possibility, because seeing death clearly in front, nobody wants to die.

So my sannyasins who are in India have to make it clear to the country that it is facing death. The whole civilization is on the verge of falling apart, and we provide a way to get out of this calamity. I don't think they will listen, but the effort should be made. That is the responsibility of all Indian sannyasins, to make the effort. At least we will not feel that we never did anything.

For thirty years I was doing everything that was in my power. I wasted my health, my body. I was never sick, but those thirty years continuously traveling I accumulated all kinds of sicknesses unnecessarily. And it is so difficult to change the traditional mind.

But now that I am outside India, their negativity towards me is less. It was a miracle that in this festival, 250 Indians came. People who had never come to see me in India write letters that they want to come here; if I can give them a little time, they want to meet me. They never came in India -- and I was available.

Perhaps it is good that I am far away and they cannot take me for granted.

And the situation has become even worse. When Indira was assassinated, the government was on shaky ground. Rajiv has nothing to contribute. He cannot solve the problem of Punjab. He tried to bribe the leader of the revolutionary Sikhs who want Punjab to be an independent nation. It is very easy in India to bribe, so he bribed the leader of the revolutionaries. He must have promised him privately that he would be made the chief minister or governor: "The whole government will be yours, so you choose all the Sikhs in the government. We give you the capital of Chandigarh for Punjab."

Chandigarh is the only new city in India. Made by a very famous architect from France, the whole city is absolutely new, the only city that is really clean, and has beauty, art. But it has been up to now the capital of two provinces, Haryana and Punjab, which were one province before. Then Sikhs said they want to be separate from Hindus; they don't want to live with Hindus, they want a separate province, a separate state.

That was granted after much struggle.

It is a strange thing in politics -- you know you will have to grant something, then why waste time with unnecessary killing, murdering, riots, army, curfew, martial law, and then finally you accept? They accepted finally that Punjab should be an independent state and the Hindu majority would make another state, 1/08/07

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Haryana. But then trouble arose because Punjab had Chandigarh as their capital. Now both provinces were fighting for Chandigarh. It is worth fighting for; it is the best city now in India, everything made new, and with tremendous contemporary art.

Rajiv conceded that the government would give Chandigarh to Punjab alone and for Haryana it would make another capital. An underground agreement must have been made with the leader: "You will be the chief minister, you will have the cabinet, all the Sikhs you have, but don't ask for an independent country."

And of course he was much gratified. He agreed and signed.

The day Savita brought the news to me, I told her immediately that that leader would be assassinated within a few days; and yesterday she brought the news that he has been assassinated. Now the problem is again back where it was.

It is such a simple thing. Just make Punjab independent. If the people of that state want to be independent, it is nobody's business to prevent it. First you were not willing to give them a separate state, and you had to give it. Second, you were not ready to give them the whole capital of Chandigarh, only half.

Finally you agreed to give it... and now you are not agreeing to give them Punjab. You will have to agree, because Sikhs are simple people, but very strong-willed. If they have decided, then nobody can change their decision.

So why unnecessarily waste time? Why not be friendly? And just tell them that this is perfectly good --

if you want to be an independent country, be an independent country and whatsoever help we can give to make you independent, self-sufficient, we will give you. And even if after independence you find that it is difficult, you are always welcome, you can come back to the union.

But this is how politics is -- so complicated that nothing is ever solved. If they give Punjab to the Sikhs, then the Nagars are asking for Assam as an independent country. For forty years they have been fighting.

Then too Bengalis would like to be separate, because they don't consider themselves in any way part of India. Their language is better, their culture is better. Everything they have is better, they think, and they don't want to mix with second-rate people.

Then there is Tamil Nadu in South India, which is even racially different. They belong to South Africa, they don't belong to India. Africa was joined with India, and thousands of years ago it drifted away. You just try the map of India and the map of Africa: put them together and you will be surprised -- they fit exactly, line for line. It was one land, and now scientists accept the idea that continents drift, they are not in the same place. At least one foot every year, every continent is drifting somewhere. They are floating on the ocean.

South India wants to be independent, so the problem is if you allow Punjab, then you give the idea to other states also. But then, too, I say, what is the problem? Let everybody who wants to be independent be independent.

India has never been a country, it has been always many countries. Maharashtra is a country in itself; their language is different, their culture is different. Kerala is a country in itself; its language is different, its religion is different, its political ideology is different. Kerala is the only state in India which is communist, the only state in India which is majority Christian. Why should they be forced to live together?

The only reason is that if all these provinces and states become independent countries, then India shrinks to a small country. And in the same proportion, the prime ministers and the presidents of India also shrink.

They don't want to shrink, that is the only problem; otherwise there is no problem.

And it will be far easier to solve other problems: let them solve their own problems. Why bother?if Punjab wants to be independent, then they have to take care of poverty and other problems. It will be really good. I am in absolute support of independence for every state that wants to be independent, so it has to solve its problems also.

And what is harmful in India becoming smaller? What does it matter? Just because the president will not be that big, the prime minister will not be that big -- there will be at least twenty presidents and twenty prime ministers in India -- but what is wrong with that? In fact, to me it seems to be more psychologically healthy. So many people's ambitions will be fulfilled; why prevent them?

And then they have to solve their own problems, and when your country becomes smaller, your problems become smaller, and perhaps you may be able to solve them. If India is disintegrated completely there is a possibility of its survival, but it cannot survive as one country. It can survive as many countries, small countries -- and they are not so small. If Sweden, Denmark, Holland, Italy, England, Germany, Switzerland, Belgium, can all be independent countries.... Each state of India is bigger than any country in Europe, so why keep this whole load together? Distribute it.

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Perhaps by distribution, Punjabis will put their whole energy into solving their problems. They are not concerned if Bengalis are dying, that is not their concern. Bengalis will put their whole intelligence into solving their problems, they are not bothered if Assamese are dying.

My approach is to let India be disintegrated. Let it be twenty, thirty, as many countries as they want.

There are thirty states; perhaps they all want to be independent -- so let them all be independent. And the problem will be distributed also into thirty sections and each new country will put its whole energy in, now that it is their country and they have to solve its problems, and they have to face the reality. Perhaps that may wake up the sleeping soul of people.

So my sannyasins in India should spread the idea that this is perfectly good. There is no need of any riots, no need of any martial law, no need for the army. If anybody wants to be free, let him be free in a friendly way, help him.

So don't become enemies when you become separate. Remain friendly, and the problems can be solved.

The old India will be dead; now there will be thirty new countries. Perhaps the freshness, the youth, the newness may help them to get rid of the whole past.

Q: IS MAN CAPABLE OF BEING CIVILIZED, OF CREATING A TRUE CIVILIZATION A TRUE

DEMOCRACY?

A: Man is capable, and only man is capable; just no effort has been made yet. If we can create in this small commune a certain atmosphere of love, this is enough proof that the same can happen all around the world. They just have to do what we have done.

Families should disperse into bigger communes. Rather than creating a demarcation -- a small group called family -- make children available to bigger communes. Their experience will be richer, their loving qualities will be higher, their intelligence will be sharper.

And the whole world need not have big cities. All big cities should become many small communes, and much of the crime will disappear. Crime exists because people don't receive dignity, respect, love, and their necessities. Each commune should take care of its people -- their necessities, their education, their dignity, respect.

In a big city like New York or Bombay or Tokyo or London, you are lost in a crowd, you don't have any identity. You are in the crowd, but you are always alone. You shake hands with people, but you are strangers. For hours you are standing in the same commuter train; nobody is talking with anybody else, everybody is looking at the newspaper. We have to create smaller groups where everybody is acquainted with everybody else, where people mix with each other, not as separate families -- they have dropped that separation -- but as part of one commune.

And the commune can pool everything. For example, if we can manage food for five thousand people, what is the need of having five thousand kitchens? Sheer wastage, stupidity. When the world is hungry, undernourished, you have so many kitchens in every city, and so many people are involved in working in those kitchens -- so much labor! -- millions of hours in every city are simply wasted.

We can see in our commune that very few people can manage, and can manage far better than individual homes. Because the commune will always be richer... if five hundred families pool their resources into the commune, the commune is going to be really rich. Everybody need not have a car, you can just have a pool of five hundred cars. Anybody who wants the car can take it, so five hundred cars can serve five thousand people without any trouble -- and everybody has a car.

Now this is not possible in a world which is family -- divided. The commune is the way to make man civilized. The commune should decide how many children we need this year, and the commune will be responsible for the children. Parents can be loving to them, but they cannot claim them as their possessions; they belong to the whole commune.

Naturally, they cannot be taught to be Christians, Hindus, Mohammedans; no -- the commune has no religion. It will teach the children everything that has been found truthful, and it will teach the children that there are many things they will have to seek and find themselves. We cannot give them the answers for those things: God, soul.... We cannot give them any answers, but we will give them a curiosity, we will give them an inquiry, we will give them a doubting mind. We will give them a sharp intelligence. We will give them the art of meditation so they can be utterly still.

Archimedes used to say, "If I can find a single still point, I can change the whole universe." He was 1/08/07

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right, but he was looking in the wrong direction. That single still point exists within you. Archimedes could not find it, so he could not turn the whole universe. I have found it, and I find that the universe is turning perfectly well. There is no trouble.

The commune will teach the children to be meditative, to find their own still being, the still small voice, which always directs rightly, which is the only guide. And all other guides are just hypocrites.

We can create a world without poverty, a world without crime, a world without war, and that will be a civilized world. Man is capable of it, and we have to show it with existential proof. We have to make communes all around the world in every place, so people can see that what I am saying is not just a philosophy -- it can be done, it can be made into reality.

In the beginning they will be hostile, in the beginning they will hate, in the beginning they will try to destroy you. But soon all that will disappear, because how long can they deceive themselves? Seeing the fact that you are more joyous, more intelligent, more creative, richer in every possible way, they will have to learn your art.

My communes one day will become schools for teaching man how to be civilized.

Okay, Pratima?

Q: THANK YOU, BHAGWAN.

The Last Testament, Vol 2

Chapter #15

Chapter title: None

4 September 1985 pm in Jesus Grove

Archive code: 8509045

ShortTitle: LAST215

Audio:

Yes

Video:

Yes

Length: 103 mins

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

INTERVIEW WITH KGW TV, PORTLAND, OREGON

QUESTION:* BHAGWAN, HELLO. YOU MUST BE EXHAUSTED AFTER THE ENTRANCE.

A:* No.

Q:* I'M COME TO ASK YOU A SERIES OF QUESTIONS ABOUT AIDS. WE SAW YOUR FORECAST

A YEAR AND A HALF A GO, IN MARCH OF 1984, AT A TIME WHEN YOU SAID THAT TWO-THIRDS

OF THE WORLD'S POPULATION WOULD EVENTUALLY DIE OF THE DISEASE. I'M CURIOUS

WHERE THAT NUMBER CAME FROM, AND WHY YOU BELIEVE THIS IS TRUE.

A:* I am not a astrologer or a prophet. It is just simple arithmetic, the way AIDS is spreading, no 1/08/07

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adequate efforts are being made to prevent it. On the contrary, governments are repressing the information, patients are repressing the information. Governments are making homosexuality illegal -- that means they are making it go underground. Just in Texas, one million homosexuals suddenly have become criminals.

Law has never changed anybody. It is just sheer stupidity, that just by making a law against homosexuality you have taken a great preventive act. In fact, you have made it more dangerous. Known, diagnosed, there was a way to prevent it spreading. Now it will not be known, it will not be diagnosed; it will be underground. Nobody will be ready to go for a test.

And the disease is no ordinary disease. It cannot be cured, there seems to be no possibility to cure it.

Secondly, its way of spreading is very strange. Sexual intercourse, of course, is one of the ways, but even if that is prevented, kissing can be enough to spread it. Tears of somebody are enough to spread it -- perhaps any liquid coming out of the body carries the virus. This is for the first time some disease, which is being spread in so many ways.

Nobody is going to say that he has it, because the moment he says it, his own family will condemn him.

His wife will leave him, his children will close the doors for him, his parents will deny him. His society will condemn him, his friends will turn into enemies. Nobody would like even his shadow to be close by.

Naturally, people will suppress it, they will not inform anybody, and that is the most dangerous part of it.

The disease originates in homosexuality, and all the religions are preaching, in disguise, homosexuality, all kinds of sexual perversions, because they are teaching to people to remain celibate, which is unnatural, which cannot be supported by medical science. Nobody who is not impotent can be celibate, he has to find some outlet for his sexual energy which goes on accumulating.

Your monks eat food, your monks drink milk, your monks do everything that the body needs. Then body produces everything that it has been producing for millennia. And the body has no way of knowing that you have taken the vow of celibacy. And the body is neither Christian, nor Hindu, nor Mohammedan. And the body does not know whether you are a householder or a monk.

Secondly, all the religions have put their monks in one monastery, their nuns in another, and there is no way of meeting for man and woman. In armies you are doing the same. In hostels, in schools, in colleges, in universities, that has been the routine. Now, all these are the grounds from where AIDS has arisen.

Homosexuality is the source.

And the most strange thing is, that now, people like Falwell are saying that it is God's punishment for homosexuals. If God is there, and if he has any sense of justice, then the punishment should be given to the popes, to the prophets, to the messiahs, who have created this idea -- lunatic IDEA -- of celibacy. And because of that idea, homosexuality came into being, sodomy came into being, and just now they have found three apes in Africa who have AIDS. The scientists thought that it is the apes who are spreading it.

This is simple stupidity. It is not the apes who are spreading it; it must be the man who has made intercourse with the apes. It is well-known in remote corners of the world -- in jungles, in mountains -- when people cannot get anybody else, they make love to the animals. And this is not something new, it is coming from the Old Testament.

A whole city called Sodom became interested into animals, that's why the name sodomy.

Q:* YOU SAID THAT TWO-THIRDS OF THE POPULATION WILL DIE OF AIDS. WHO WILL BE

THE SURVIVORS? WHO WILL BE LEFT?

A:* People who want to survive will have to live like in a commune we are living. Only in a commune it is possible to prevent the disease spreading, to take every measurement. And only in a commune it is possible not to be afraid of being known as suffering from the disease, because you are only a victim.

In my commune, there are few people who are suffering from AIDS, but they are getting more respect than they have ever got, and more love than they have ever got. And we are making every facility for them: better house, better scenic place for them to live -- because they are going to live only for few months, or at the most two years, which is rarely possible; six month may be the most possible life for them. For six months we can make their life as pleasant as possible. We can teach them meditations, we can help them to be silent -- to prepare for death.

In fact, I am telling to these sannyasins that "Take it as an opportunity. Perhaps in your whole life you may not have got an opportunity of two years remaining in silence. And death comes unknown to others; to you it is coming with a notice. It is perfectly useful, because you can prepare. Nobody else is ready for 1/08/07

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death, everybody is caught unprepared; you can prepare. And the preparation is, go deeper into meditation, reach to the point where death can never reach. And then let death come, you don't die, you simply go on moving into new forms.

So only in a commune, intelligent, loving, understanding.... Every sannyasin has gone through the tests.

In the cities people are resisting. Even if they have symptoms, they don't want to be tested. The fear of condemnation will kill them! Two years to live in such a condemnation, there will be only one way: to commit suicide rather than be condemned by your own family, by your own people, friends, and live like a ghost, nowhere welcome. These people can only do to commit suicide. That will be the only thing left respectable for them.

But in a commune, it is a differently, totally situation. All over the world we have communes, and we are making the commune the model for everything. Any city can follow up on the same ground rules. The basic thing is that the AIDS patient should not be condemned, that there should be special shelters, nursing homes, better than any other, for these people who are living under the shadow of death. And the best music, the best paintings, the best films, the best literature -- anything that they want should be provided.

And the whole responsibility should be throw on the religious people. They should be charged for all the expenses! Because it is they who have done, and they are still doing crimes and nobody is preventing them.

They are still going on telling people. In South Africa, pope is telling people against birth control, against abortion, against the pill, because these are all against God's will. As if he knows God, as if he knows God's will. And he is telling to people who's birthrate is the highest in the world, who are already over-populated, starving, in utter degradation, in slavery. He is teaching them this nonsense. He should be shot immediately!

And the same is being done by all other religions. Mohammedans still insist that they will marry four wives. That means they can create four times more population than anybody else. And they say it is a religious question, and you cannot interfere into anybody's religion.

The population is growing, the starvation is growing, sicknesses like AIDS are spreading, the nuclear weapons are piling up. It is enough for any man of intelligence to understand that we are very close on a global death. Some way or other this beautiful earth is going to be destroyed, unless something very drastic is done.

Q:* DO YOU SEE ANY POSSIBILITY THAT THAT DRASTIC CHANGE WILL COME?

A:* I don't see any possibility, but I will make every effort. It is hoping against hope, but I will still hope. I don't see that anything can be done, because all these people are divided in religious groups, their minds are so conditioned that they can't see the reality.

In India, I was teaching for thirty years about birth control, and the only reward that I got was stones being thrown at me, shoes thrown at me, knives are thrown, attempts to kill me were made.

The last attempt before I left India was made before ten thousand sannyasins in a morning discourse --

ten thousand eyewitnesses, it is a rare case to find. And then twenty topmost police officers were there, because they got the news from some anonymous source that "Something is going to happen, you reach immediately!" So twenty police officers were there. They caught the man who threw the knife at me. They presented the case, we were out of it.

We said, "It is a police case, police has caught the man redhanded. They have the knife, they have the person" -- still the court released him. Ten thousand witnesses don't mean anything, twenty police officers unanimously saying, the proof is there -- the man belongs to the same Hindu fanatic group that killed Mahatma Gandhi. Still he was released honorably, no charge.

But the magistrate must have started feeling guilty, it was such injustice, that from a common friend he asked my apology. I said, "There is no need to ask for an apology. This way he will not get rid of his guilt.

He has done something far more dangerous than murder."

The friend said, "But his situation is that he belongs to the same religious group, he believes in the same religion. The religious leaders are pressing him, the politicians are pressing him that that man should not be punished. And his promotion is due. If he punishes that man, of course, they will release him from the next court, but his promotion will be gone."

I said to his friend, "You tell him `Don't feel guilty, you just enjoy your promotion. As far as I am concerned, now there is no more any promotion for me. I have reached to the very end of my consciousness, now there is nothing more. So if anybody kills, it should not be considered a murder, because he is not preventing me from anything.'"

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Q:* AT THE NEWS CONFERENCE THERE WAS TALK OF A GUN IN THE AUDIENCE. AND THE

QUESTION OF YOUR BEING KILLED CAME UP AT THAT TIME TOO. IS THIS SOMETHING THAT

YOU CAN THINK ABOUT A LOT? IS THIS SOMETHING THAT IS IN THE MINDS OF YOUR PEOPLE?

OR ...

A:* I don't think it at all. But every day we go on receiving phone calls, letters, every day threats. it is not on our part. We don't care about those letters, we simply give to the police. We don't bother about those telephones. We are not at all worried. We are doing our thing so totally, nobody has any time for any nonsense.

I simply mentioned it, because the world is divided in fanatic religious groups. The world is divided also in political groups. They all have their vested interests, and their vested interest is in this kind of society, where AIDS is absolutely bound to happen.

So I don't see again so many vested interests and so many powerful people -- religious, political --

anything can succeed. But I am doing my best. I am creating communes every place, in every country. They are trying that these communes should not be created, they are doing the same here.

We have not done any harm to anybody. In four years' time we have changed a desert into a beautiful oasis. There was only one house when we had come; now there are houses for five thousand people with all latest facilities -- fully air-conditioned city. No illegality has happened in four years: nobody has been fighting, nobody has been killed, nobody has committed suicide, nobody has raped anybody, there is not a single prostitute -- and your government is declaring this city illegal. If this city is illegal, then no city can be legal.

Q:* THE CITY THAT YOU BUILT, IS IT COMPLETE NOW, OR WHAT IS THE NEXT STEP OR

STAGE OF ITS DEVELOPMENT? WHAT HAPPENS NEXT HERE?

A:* We don't plan ahead, we go spontaneously. Right now it is under litigation, so nothing can happen.

Once the litigation is over -- and it has to be over, we are going to win, because we still believe in the constitution of America. We don't believe in Americans, but we believe in the constitution.

Q:* NOW WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

A:* That means, the constitution is certainly going to protect us. We have done nothing against constitution, and your politicians have done everything against constitution. So we have every certainly to win from the Supreme Court, and we will fight to the very end. Our defeat will be the defeat of American Constitution, American democracy, American idea of freedom, individuality. So, if that is going to be the case, then it is okay.

Q:* CLEARLY YOUR GOAL IN WINNING THIS LITIGATION IS FAR MORE THAN

AIR-CONDITIONED HOUSES, AND WHAT YOU'VE ACHIEVED HERE NOW. THERE IS MORE

INSIDE*. YOUR GOAL IS BEYOND THIS...

(Interruption about changing tapes)

A:* Change. Just don't change the sex, you can go on changing the tape.

I don't have any goal. We live moment to moment, and when tomorrow comes, we will live tomorrow.

Naturally, we will be expanding -- that is the nature of life. Death is shrinking, life is expanding. So if we are free to expand, we will expand. And nobody knows the limits, and nobody can determine the limits. And we have enough land -- one hundred twenty-six square miles. It is three times the New York.

So we can make a beautiful place, a hill station. On all the mountains people living. We can create many lakes, we can make it lush green. Nobody will ever remember that it was sometime a desert, and for fifty 1/08/07

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years it remained for sale and nobody purchased it, because it was worthless. But we are already self-sufficient as far as our food is concerned, our vegetables are concerned, our milk products are concerned. And we are trying in every way to be self-sufficient and to grow. And we will invite more and more people to share and be part of us.

One thing is certain: the moment the barriers are removed -- and they will have to be removed, they can postpone, that does not matter -- we are going to expand. And we are going to make the first city of the world without crime, without homosexuality, without prostitution, without priests -- which are worse than prostitutes. And we are going to create as luxurious and comfortable a life to the people in the commune that they will not think of any heaven at all.

Heaven is the projection of people who are living in hell. If you are living already in paradise, who cares about heaven and hell? My people, perhaps, is the only small community in the world which has no need of a God father*... God father, a God figure, because deep down they are growing, maturing, and that need of a child for a father figure, has disappeared. God has nothing to do with religion, nothing to do with philosophy. It is something to do with a retarded child, a child who has not been able to grow and still needs some father figure to protect him.

Nobody prays here. There is no need, there is nobody to pray, and there is nothing to pray for. Whatever we need, we will produce. What we can do, why go on dumping on somebody else head. Yes, everybody is meditating, meditation needs no system of beliefs. It does not require you to be theist or atheist, democrat or communist. You may be whatever you are. Meditation is a scientific methodology. You need not believe in it, you have just to hypothetically experiment with it.

And it has never been, in the whole history of man, that a single man who has meditated has said anything against the innermost supreme consciousness -- not a single man. Those who have spoken against have never meditated: Marx, Engels, Lenin, or Mao -- none of them has ever meditated for a single moment.

They know nothing of their own interiority. Their denial is just stupid. Their denial is as idiotic as the acceptance of God of all other religions. They have not meditated, they have not searched within themselves. They have not looked who they are.

So these people are searching within themselves and finding peace, silence, joy, arising. We don't have much, but we are living as richly as even rich people in the world cannot afford. They are miserly, they are suffering, they are in misery. They may have riches, but they don't have the consciousness to use those riches. Whatever we have, we share, we enjoy, and we are perfectly contented. Not a single complaint.

And we have not dozens of communes exactly the same around the world, growing on the same lines.

Those are going to be the models for people to see, to understand. And if they feel that this is right, then my communes become the schools for the future cities. Then send your people to be here, to live for three or six months -- that will be a training period for them, so that they can go back and create a commune of your city. Or, if it is a big city, then four communes, five communes, but divided communes, no more families!

We have one kitchen for five thousand people. This is so cheap, so simple, and so many women are freed for other work. For the first time they can paint, they can sculpt, they can compose music, they can write poetry. They need not only waste their life in rearing children and taking care of the kitchen and their whole life is finished -- from cradle to birth, from cradle to grave, the same routine.

In four years' time, not a single child has been born in the commune, and nobody is prohibited. Just a simple understanding of the situation, that the world is overpopulated and this is a crime to give birth to a child -- crime against the world, crime against the child. Because the child will be a beggar, the child will create another Ethiopia, the child will be hungry, starving, and you are not being human to your own child.

No child has been born in four years. There is no need. The family is a dangerous thing now, it should not exist.

Q:* SHOULD NOT EXIST TODAY, AND FOR THE NEXT TWENTY YEARS? OR SHOULD NOT

EXIST FROM NOW ON?

A:* From now on, because its function is finished. it has done its job. The future belongs to communes.

That does not mean that people cannot live together, it simply means that children are no more their possessions. They can love their children, they can meet their children, but the children will be responsibility of the commune.

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board will decide who is going to be the mother and who is going to be the father. It cannot be decided by priests and the church, or the astrologers, or the palmists; this is idiotic. It has to be decided by the medical board, that who can be the father and who can be the mother.

Q:* DO YOU THINK PEOPLE WOULD ACCEPT AN IDEA OF THAT SORT?

A:* Here, they already accept it, there is no question about it.

Q:* IS THERE ANY EFFORT TO ESTABLISH A MEDICAL BOARD WITH THAT DIRECTION?

A:* We have a medical center, we have enough medical people. You cannot find, in such a small commune, all professions -- and the topmost people of the professions. We have four hundred legal experts

-- the biggest law firm in the whole world. And these four hundred people are going to fight for every single inch. We have doctors, all qualified -- highly qualified. We have surgeons -- one of the best plastic surgeon in the world, one of the best heart surgeon in the United States. We have nurses.... We have everything that is needed.

And in our other communes, we have people if we need any help. We have one million sannyasins around the world -- in every profession. And because only the very intelligent people become interested in me, this is bound to be so. None of my people are uneducated, almost all are graduates from the universities, most of them have masters degrees, many are Ph.Ds. We are perfectly balanced in every way, and that's why I say commune is the way for the future, because nobody needs to be paid, all his needs are taken care of.

I don't believe in austerity, I am against it. It is masochistic, a psychological disease. All your saints have suffered from it.

Everything that my people need is made available. They themselves make it available. They have pooled all their energies into one pool, and things have become so simple.

For example, five thousand cars are not needed, only one thousand cars will do. Anybody can take the car, there is no problem, there is no question. So everybody has the facility of a car. We have one hundred buses. If you want to go in an air-conditioned bus and don't want to go in a car and drive and unnecessarily take risk, you go in an air-conditioned bus. We have five aeroplanes, which are perfectly sufficient for our people. Anybody in any urgency can use the aeroplane. We have our own pilots, we have our own engineers. We have our own garages, we have our own mechanics.

Everybody that we need is here, and we have all pooled the energies. So one kitchen is sufficient for five thousand people, and gives better food than you can ever get from a nagging wife.

Q:* IT SOUNDS LIKE WHAT YOU'RE ESTABLISHING HERE IS AN ATTEMPT FOR AN OASIS

THAT WILL SURVIVE ALL THE DIRE THINGS THAT YOU PREDICT WITHIN THE NEXT DECADE, THE NEXT TWENTY YEARS. THE GOAL THEN WOULD BE FOR BHAGWAN AND THE SANNYASINS

TO LEAD HUMANITY OUT OF ALL OF THIS THROUGH THE COMMUNES, AND THAT WOULD BE

THE GOAL OF RAJNEESHPURAM AND THE OTHERS?

A:* No, it is not the goal. The goal is to become for the whole humanity a new type of school of training, a model for the future. But it depends on them. If they don't want to come, we are not going to send missionaries to convince them. If they want to die, they are perfectly free, that is their choice. If they want to have AIDS spread all over the world, it is their freedom. But we will not allow them to destroy our communes.

We are ready to help, but they will have to come to us; we are not going to them! The thirsty has to come to the well, the well is not going anywhere. We have not left the world.

I was arguing for thirty years, travelling and arguing and talking, and then I realized that this will not do.

I have to give proofs of what I am saying, not just arguments but existential proofs. That's why in 1970 I started the movement of sannyas, and started creating small centers, making them bigger and bigger. And 1/08/07

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now they have flowered, they have blossomed into communes. Now we are ready to accept anybody who wants to learn anything!

They can see our children, they can see how they are being taught, how they are being treated -- with what respect and love. They can see our teachers, that they are not just teachers, they are mothers and fathers too. They can come and see that every child is moving in the whole commune freely. All women are the aunts and all sannyasins are the uncles. It is a beautiful and rich experience for the child.

There was one small child, Siddhartha. I used to ask her mother where he is. She will say, "It is very difficult to find him. Sometimes he is with this uncle, sometimes he is with that aunt; many days he disappears, sleeps in other houses. But there is no problem, he is so happy. Once in a while he comes, and each time we can see that he is growing fast, knowing things that we had never known at his age, becoming more mature and understanding."

Being with so many people is a tremendous training. And getting so much love from so many people is a great fulfillment. Why keep the child poor, just by giving the mother and the father? And in fact, because the child has to be disciplined by the father, he will never forgive the father. He will always hate, deep down. And because, if the child is a boy, he was in love with his mother, and the father was the enemy. If the child is a girl, she was in love with the father, and the mother was the enemy. No woman is without that hate in her unconscious, for her own mother.

Psychologists say that ninety percent diseases are because of the family! If we can free the child from this addictiveness with two persons, and make him free and available to many impressions, he will not be angry with his father, and she will not be hate towards the mother. Rather, on the contrary, they will be grateful that their parents helped them to grow in such a big human energy field.

It has been found that no man is ever satisfied with any woman, nor any woman is ever satisfied with any man. Something always is missing. And the reason, psychologists say, is that the girl first fell in love with the father. Now she will seek and search her whole life the same type of man, exactly her father. That is impossible, she cannot find anywhere, nature never produces two people alike.

So she has to compromise and be in love with a man who in some partial way resembles her father. But once they get married, they have to become acquainted with their whole personality. Just a part resembles, but the whole is a stranger. And the same is with the man: only a part of her mother resembles, the whole is different. This creates continuous conflict with every couple. And this drives them nuts.

In a commune, this will not happen because children will not be carrying a single clear-cut picture of a woman or a man. They will be having a vague sensation, which can adjust to any woman or to any man very easily. They have only a vague sense of thousands of qualities, because every woman has different qualities, different ways. Every man has different qualities, different ways. And if a child becomes aware of five thousand peoples' then he has a richness which will make him capable to adjust with someone. If he can adjust with five thousand strangers, there is no question of his being adjusted with one wife, some husband.

And we can create a better, loving world.

Q:* WHAT YOU'RE SAYING SOUNDS LIKE IT'S FROM THE HEAD AND NOT THE HEART.

PEOPLE WANT FAMILIES, CHILDREN, COMFORT, AND THE LOVE THAT THESE PROVIDE. THEY

WANT THE TRADITION OF THESE THINGS. (INAUDIBLE) WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS FROM THE

HEAD.

A:* What I am saying is of the heart, but the heart cannot say it. It has to use the head to say it. Just you try saying from the heart -- anything, just a single word? So whatever I am saying is from the heart, but heart has no tongue, it has to go via head. So you will be listening through my mouth, not through my heart.

That I can understand.

But everything that I am saying is from the heart, and if I am supporting it from the head, that is the function of the head. The head has to speak for the heart, the head has to rationalize for the heart, the head has to be a servant to the heart. The heart is the master. I am against the head being the master. As a master, head is the worst master; as a servant, it is a perfect servant.

But whatever I am saying is absolutely my heart. But there is no other way: I have to use the head, its language, its reasoning, to reach you. Certainly it will reach to your head first. If you don't block it there, perhaps it may enter into your heart. But you can block, you can keep it in the head, you can listen to me only as intellectually. That is not my fault, that is your fault. As far as I am concerned, I am speaking my 1/08/07

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heart.

Q:* TOMORROW THERE WAS A NEWS CONFERENCE SCHEDULED, WHERE YOU AND SHEELA WERE TO APPEAR. IT WAS GOING TO BE SOMETHING ABOUT AIDS. WHAT HAPPENED?

A:* I don't know, because I don't involved into details of things what the commune is doing. They inform me, they bring the car and they tell me that you are waiting here. Seven o'clock I have to be here, so I am here. If there is a press conference tomorrow, I will be certainly there.

Q:* YOU REALIZE YOU COULD TELL THESE PEOPLE WHAT TO DO IF YOU WANTED.

A:* No, I don't impose anything on the commune. It is commune's work. I never go in the commune's office. I never inquire what is happening. Whatsoever they feel that they want me to inform, they inform.

And I have told them "Be as minimum as possible." So every night, half an hour -- at the most one hour --

they inform me. If there is a press conference, tonight I will know about it. If there is not....

Q:* ABOUT SIX, EIGHT MONTHS AGO, THERE WAS A PROGRAM SPONSORED BY THE

CHURCH, CALLED "TO THE HEART OF AMERICA," WHICH SENT SANNYASINS OUT TO FOUR

CITIES. THIS LOOKED VERY MUCH LIKE A MISSIONARY EFFORT. WOULD YOU APPROVE OF

SUCH A THING?

A: What are you saying?

(A sannyasin explains that the university, RIMU, arranged a program to send sannyasins to different cities.)

A:* I have not even heard about it. These people must have been done something...

But I have not heard about it, that's why I could not understand your question. These people from the university may have gone to other universities or other cities where people were asking to understand what is going on here, and what is my basic philosophy. So few people had gone on invitation.

We are not missionaries. We will never go anywhere uninvited. If a university invites, then we can send somebody from the university to talk to them, to answer their questions, their curiosities. But there is no question of any missionary effort.

And you can see that I am not even aware of it. I have never heard it, I am just hearing now, the program called "Heart of America." That's great.

Q:* A QUESTION OF PERSONAL CURIOSITY: YOU ARE TEACHING PEOPLE HOW TO LIVE, HOW TO GET BY IN THIS WORLD, AND TO GET BY ON THEIR OWN, FIND THEIR STRENGTH

WITHIN THEMSELVES ULTIMATELY, WHICH TO ME MEANS TO FIND THEIR WAY WITHOUT

BHAGWAN. IF THESE PEOPLE ARE PAYING ATTENTION TO THE LESSON, WHY ARE THEY STILL

HERE?

A:* It is not wrong on your part to ask the question, it is significant.

The people who have come to understand themselves, their silence, their peace, their joy, certainly no longer need me. And if they were going to decide by their head -- as the question is arising from your head

-- they would have left. But just because, in my presence, in my love field, they have experienced their ultimate joy and ecstasy, they feel a tremendous gratitude -- that is of their heart. But nobody is preventing them from going away, but they would not like to go. They simply love the place where their greatest experience happened. They love the man with whom their greatest experience happened.

I am reminded of a story in Gautam Buddha's life. Sariputra*, one of his chief disciples, became 1/08/07

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enlightened. And Buddha said, "Sariputra, now you have to go to spread the word. You don't need me any more, you are yourself in the same space where I am."

Sariputra said, "I was worried about this. I was postponing my enlightenment up to now, just to be near to you. And be kind enough to me, although I am enlightened, you are old, who knows how long we will be able to sit in your fragrance, in your presence? And how we are going to pay the debt? It is impossible. But at least, let me be here, so every day I can touch your feet."

This happened many times, because many other disciples slowly became enlightened, and Buddha asked them to go, and the same was the situation. They will cry, enlightened people crying and asking not to be sent away.

There is something of tremendous gratitude that happens side by side. And a disciple -- although he is no more a disciple, he himself is a master -- just because of this fact, that this miraculous thing has happened to him, which he had never dreamed about, creates great gratitude, and they want to be near with me as long as possible.

I cannot send them away. That will be too heartless. I am not preventing them, that will be against my teachings. So it is up to them. If they want to go into the world to spread the word, they are welcome. But if they want to remain here, and just being here is such a joy for them, then I should not disturb them. Then they can be here. But many people are going out.

I have an exchange program with other communes. Twenty people from a commune from Germany, will come here for three months -- because they also need by presence and to be close with me -- and twenty people....

There is an exchange program now, because we have so many communes, and everybody wants to be here with me. So we have found this way: twenty persons, thirty persons, voluntarily will offer themselves that they would like to give a chance for thirty people from Germany to be here for three months -- or from Italy, or from Holland, or from India, or from Japan. And this way those people will be here, and my people will be there.

In both the cases it will be good. Those people will enjoy and relish the feel of energy that is here, and my thirty people will spread all that they have gained, learned, experienced in the commune, in Germany or in Japan. And this is going to be continuously, all the year round people will be moving. And for three months, anybody will be ready to go voluntarily, because it is not going to be a lifelong thing -- only for three months. And in fact, it is compassionate to go and give thirty other people a chance to be with me. So that is our exchange program around the world for other sannyasins.

But whoever wants to be near with me, I am available. Whether he has achieved or not, does not matter; it is his decision.

Q:* AS A RELIGIOUS LEADER, HOW WOULD YOU DEFINE WHAT YOUR OBLIGATION, IN

TURN, IS THEN IN TOTAL? YOU SAY YOU'RE AVAILABLE TO THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO.... IS AN

OBLIGATION YOU FEEL TO THOSE PEOPLE?

A:* No. No obligation on anyone's part -- neither on my part nor on sannyasins part. I am available out of my own joy. I am not obliging anybody. Nobody even give me a simple thank you, no need. I am so full, that I would like to share. In fact, that's what I mean by availability.

The opening of a flower, and the fragrance spreads. It is not obliging anybody. Anybody who is available and close to the flower, is sensitive enough, will be able to get something out of it. So it is not a commandment, that you have to follow me, that you have to receive what I give, that you have to accept it.

There is no question of any commandment, no order. I am not a leader. I am simply a human being who has blossomed to full humanity, of which everyone has the potential.

So there is no question of holier-than-thou, higher-than-thou. There is no problem and no question. Just you have been a little late in getting up, that's all the difference is. I got up a little early. That difference does not make any difference. So they are not obliged to me. If they open their hearts and receive whatever I have to offer, they are doing it on their own choice. They are not doing a duty, they are not following a discipline. They are simply, out of their own freedom, experimenting.

I call it an experiment of inner exploration. If somebody has already reached, just sitting silently by his side, something transpires. It is infectious, you can go easily in. And if there are thousands of people who are doing the same in-going, a new person can simply be caught in the current of ingoing.

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But nobody is forcing anybody, nobody is directing anybody. Nobody is even asking whether you attained it or not, at what stage you are. All these are business things, and this is a commune, absolutely non-serious, playful -- even about meditation we are playful.

So I am happy if somebody attains, but not that he is obliged to me.

Q:* IS WORK STILL A MEDITATION HERE?

A:* My whole work is meditation.

Q:* I'M THINKING OF THE SANNYASINS. IS THAT DEFINITION STILL HOLD TRUE THAT WORK

IS MEDITATION?

A:* The work is just meditation. A sannyasin simply means: who has agreed to meditate. Nothing more.

Who is willing to go as far as possible. It is his declaration, his dedication, his commitment -- to himself, not to anybody functioning as an authority. He is declaring to himself that "I am deciding to go in." And his sannyas is only a remembrance. His change of clothes is nothing but to remind him continuously, twenty-four hours, that now he has chosen meditation as his path. The day he has achieved, there is no need for his red clothes, but again the same question.

People who have attained still are using red clothes. They feel a certain even to those clothes, because for years, twenty-four hours they were reminding them. They have become something of tremendous value to them. They have helped them on the path.

So sannyas is only a declaration. The work is meditation. In one single word, my religion is complete, and that is meditation.

Q:* WE WERE TOLD THAT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE WORKING HERE AT THE COMMUNE

DRIVING A BULLDOZER, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT WAS THEIR MEDITATION. DO YOU AGREE WITH

THAT?

A:* You will have to understand what I mean by meditation. Meditation means: alertness, awareness, mindfulness. So whatever you are doing, just do it consciously, don't do it mechanically.

I can move my hand mechanically. I can move it very consciously, fully alert. And there is a difference of quality. When you move it with consciousness there is grace. When you move it just like machine, there is no grace, no beauty. When you are doing any kind of work...

All the old religions have been telling you that your religion is a Sunday religion. Every Sunday you have to go to church, and for six days you are free. This is very strange. Six days God was creating this world. He was tremendously creative, in six days he created this whole universe, and seventh day there is no mention that he went to church!

In fact, after those six days he has gone for a long weekend. And it has been really long! According to Christians, six thousand years have passed. According to Hindus, ninety thousand years have passed.

The weekend seems to be unending! Six days you do everything, and seventh day you go to the church, pray -- and your religion is finished. Other religions give you twenty minutes meditation -- sit in the morning and meditate for twenty minutes.

These are not meditations. Meditation has to be something like breathing, you cannot go on holiday.

Even in sleep you have to continue breathing. So whatever you are doing -- even just breathing, then breathe consciously in. As you take the breath in, remain alert. As the breath starts moving out, remain alert. You are meditating. Walking, just go consciously, and you are meditating.

My meditation is not something separate from life, it is something that has to be spread all over life.

Your whole life has to be colored by it. So whatever you do -- you make love, but meditation remains. You cannot drop that even while making love. It is not like your glasses, you cannot take it off! It is like eyes, they are always there. You cannot just take them off and put them on again.

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layers you have to become aware. A time comes that when you are going to sleep.... Even then while you are sitting on the bed, sit in awareness, lie down in awareness. Wait for sleep fully watchful: when it comes, how it comes, how slowly it descends on you, how your body starts relaxing, in what points there was tension, and now the tension is gone. A day will come, certainly comes, when the body will have gone to sleep and your meditation will be still there like a flame inside you, burning, fully aware. This is the moment that I call your meditation is complete. Now even in sleep you can meditate.

So there is no question, while you are awake you will be able to meditate, there is no problem. And the man who can meditate in sleep will be able to meditate while dying, because the same is the process. Just as in sleep you slowly slowly go deeper inside you, the body is left far away, relaxed, the mind slows down, the thoughts go on disappearing -- exactly the same happens in death.

A man who knows meditation, never dies. He remains alive, aware. Death is happening, he is there.

When Socrates was given poison, he had gathered all his disciples. One of the disciples asked, "Before you leave us, please tell us whether the soul survives or not." Socrates said, "Again you are asking the same stupid question. Let me die and see! I will die fully aware. Only two are the possibilities: either I am gone, finished with the body finishing, and there is nobody left to be aware, or the body will be dying and I will be moving into some other form. But before death, how can I say? I am so excited."

And the man who is preparing the poison is delaying, because he loves Socrates -- everybody loved the man, even the man who is going to give him poison is delaying. Socrates says, "This is not right. It is exact not time that you should come." The man said, "You must be crazy...!"

Q:* BHAGWAN, THE MAN TAKING THE PICTURES IS MICHAEL HAWKINS. HE WOULD VERY

MUCH LIKE TO ASK YOU A QUESTION AS WELL. WOULD THAT BE PERMITTED? DO YOU

WANT TO FINISH SOCRATES?

A: Mmmm.... The man who was preparing the poison said, "You must be crazy, Socrates. I am simply delaying the process so you can live a little longer." Socrates says, "I have lived long enough, and I have lived so totally that I don't think I have left anything unlived. My life is complete, so don't waste time. I am excited to experience death. I want to see death."

And that is exactly the situation of every meditator: he wants to see death too. And seeing it means you are separate from it, you are something eternal. And this experience of eternity, immortality, is authentic religion -- not worshipping a God, not a Holy Bible, not a Gita. Those are just for retarded people.

(To the cameraman) You wanted to ask a question? You ask it.

MICHAEL HAWKINS:* THE AIDS PRECAUTIONS THAT ARE BEING SET UP HERE WOULD

SEEM TO ME TO ATTRACT TWO TYPES OF PEOPLE. ONE, WHO POSSIBLY ALREADY HAVE AIDS

AND WANTS A PEACEFUL PLACE TO LIVE OUT THE REST OF LIFE. BUT THE OTHER PERSON

WILL BE SOMEBODY THAT IS SO PARANOID ABOUT GETTING THE DISEASE, THAT THIS WOULD

BE A PLACE THAT THEY COULD ULTIMATELY AVOID IT COMPLETELY. ARE THERE PROBLEMS

WITH EITHER OF THOSE PEOPLE COMING HERE?

A:* No problem, but we had not thought about it. You are giving a good idea! Note it down! Thank you.

We will manage.

Q:* HAS THERE BEEN A CHANGE IN THE MOOD OF THE COMMUNE IN THE FOUR YEARS? IT

WAS A YOUNGER GROUP, MAYBE A LITTLE MORE DYNAMIC, PERHAPS, FOUR YEARS AGO.

THESE PEOPLE, THEY'VE MATURED IS ONE WAY OF SAYING IT. HAVE YOU SEEN THAT

CHANGE? ARE YOU AWARE OF A CHANGE HERE IN THE WAY THAT PEOPLE BEHAVE, AND THE

WAY THEY PERCEIVE THE EFFORT OF THE COMMUNE?

A:* They are certainly more mature, more meditative, more joyous, more at ease, for many reasons.

Four years have given them many challenges. So in the beginning, they were finding harassed by the government, by the Oregonians.

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unless you are ready to be harassed. The person who harasses you -- and if you don't get harassed, is harassing himself. Slowly slowly, they have understood. Now everything calm and quiet. They go to the courts, they fight the cases, and take it easily. There is no problem about it. We have accepted that we will have to fight, so why not fight joyously? We have accepted that the government of Oregon is one of the most primitive government, illegal, unconstitutional, so there is no problem now.

First, there was some problem, because we were thinking it is a democratic government and will follow the law and the constitution. And when they did not do that, my people were a little puzzled, disappointed.

Now they have accepted the fact that we have to depend on the constitution and not on the politicians. We have to depend on the Supreme Court and not on the parliamentarians, senators, assembly members, governors, president -- we are not to depend on these people. So they have figured it out, now everything is clear. We are going to be here, that much is settled. Nobody can throw us from here. We are at home. That has given a certain calmness.

And secondly, we have become aware of all their tricks and strategies, their loopholes, and we are fighting well and we are winning. And we are going to win every single case against us, because it is illegal and unconstitutional. So there is no problem, just the legal department has to work. And it is good to sharpen your intelligence.

The commune as a whole has settled. It is no more a campus, it is an illegal city. And it is more joy to be an illegal city than to be just ordinary legal city. We are unique in the world! There is no other illegal city anywhere. Either a city is a city or there is no city! But illegal city is really hilarious!

And we are enjoying it now. We are not at all disturbed by anything. We are enjoying it, and we will give them tough fight, because we are not Christians, we are not going to give them the other cheek. And we are not even allowing them to give us the other cheek. We will hit on both their cheeks simultaneously! So we are just rejoicing in the whole game. Now it is a game for us -- a football game. And in four years people have been meditating, and people have been creative, and people have changed.

First, they were a little afraid, facing this vast desert. How we are going to manage to make streets? We have never made streets. How we are going to grow in this desert our food, our vegetables? But intelligent people can always find ways, and we have managed to do everything. People who had never made roads, have made better roads than your roads. People who have never cooked, have proved tremendously inventive in cooking.

And we have sorted out. Things have settled, and everybody is enjoying his work. And we are changing people from one work to another, so everybody is capable of many things in any emergency. The plumber can teach in the university, and the professor can be the plumber. We are shifting people. They are all educated so there is no problem. The plumber can be the electrician, the electrician can be the plumber.

Doctors are cooking, cooks are doctors! It is beautiful! Sometimes come and remain here for few days and you will find it groovy! Okay?

Q:* BHAGWAN, THANK YOU.

The Last Testament, Vol 2

Chapter #16

Chapter title: None

5 September 1985 pm in Jesus Grove

Archive code: 8509055

ShortTitle: LAST216

Audio:

Yes

Video:

Yes

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Length: 105 mins

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

INTERVIEW WITH SWAMI ANAND VEERESH, HUMANIVERSITY, HOLLAND

ANSWER:* I know*... it is going to be difficult for you.

QUESTION:* BEFORE I ASK YOU THESE QUESTIONS I JUST, I JUST WANNA SAY THANK YOU. I AM SO HAPPY....

A:* I know. Just the moment this morning I entered, I saw your tears and I knew how much happy you are. You can ask your questions.

Q:* WHEN I WORK WITH PEOPLE IN DEPTH IN THERAPY THREE FEARS CONTINUOUSLY

COME UP IN THEM. IT'S THE FEAR OF GOING CRAZY, IT'S THE FEAR OF LETTING GO IN SEXUAL

ORGASM AND THE FEAR OF DYING. THESE THREE FEARS COME UP OVER AND OVER AGAIN IN

MY WORK. CAN YOU PLEASE COMMENT ON THIS?

A:* It is really very significant an existential question. In these three fears humanity has lived for thousands of years. They are not personal, they are collective. They come from the collective unconscious.

The fear of going crazy is in everyone, for the simple reason, because their intelligence has not been allowed to develop. Intelligence is dangerous to the vested interest. So for thousands of years they have been cutting the very roots of intelligence.

In Japan they have a certain tree which is thought to be a great art, but it is simply murder. The trees are four hundred, five hundred years old and six inches high. Generations of gardeners have taken care of them.

The technique is the trees are put in a pot without any bottom. So they go on cutting their roots. They don't allow their roots to go into the earth. And when you don't allow the roots to go deeper, the tree simply grows old, it never grows up. It is a strange phenomenon to see that tree. It looks ancient, but it has only grown old, old, old, but it has never grown up. It has never blossomed, it has never given any fruits.

And that is exactly the situation of man. His roots are cut. Man lives almost uprooted. He has to be made uprooted, so that he can become dependent on the society, on the culture, on the religion, on the state, on the parents, on everybody. He has to depend. He himself has no roots. The moment he becomes aware that he has no roots, he feels he is going crazy, he is going insane. He is losing every support, he is falling into a dark ditch... because the knowledge is borrowed, it is not his own. The respectability is borrowed. He himself has no respect for his own being. His whole personality is borrowed from some source -- the university, the church, the state. He himself has nothing of his own.

Just think of a man who lives in a grand palace with everything conceivable for his luxuries. And one day suddenly you make him aware that the palace does not belong to him, neither this luxuries belong to him. They belong to somebody else who is coming and you will be thrown out. He will go crazy.

So in deep therapy you will come across this point and the person has to face it and allow it. Go crazy.

Allow in the therapy the situation that the person can go crazy. Ones he goes crazy, he will drop the fear.

Now he knows what craziness is. The fear is always of the unknown. Let him go crazy and he will soon calm down, because there is no real base to his fear. It is a fear projected by the society.

The parents say if you don't follow us, if you disobey, you will be condemned. The Jewish God says in Talmud "I am a very jealous God, very angry God. Remember that I am not nice, I am not your uncle." And all the religions have been doing it.

So just go off the way which is followed by the mob and they will declare you crazy. So everybody goes on clinging to the crowd, remaining part of a religion, a church, a party, a nation, a race. He's afraid to be alone, and that's what you are doing when you bring him to his own depths. All that crowd, all those connections, disappear. He's left alone and there is nobody else on whom he has always depended.

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He has not of his own intelligence -- that is the problem. Unless he starts growing his own intelligence, he will always remain afraid of being crazy. Not only that, the society can make him crazy any moment. If the society wants to make him crazy, if that is in their favor, they will make him crazy.

In Soviet Union it happens almost everyday. I am taking the example of Soviet Union because they do it more scientifically, methodologically. It happens everywhere all over the world, but their methods are very primitive. For example, in India if a person behaves in a way which is not approved, he is made an outcast.

He cannot get any support from anyone in the town. People will not even speak to him. His own family will close the doors upon his face. The man is bound to go crazy. You are driving him crazy.

But in Soviet Russia they do it more methodologically and they have done it to such people who were Nobel prize winners, who had intelligence, but an intelligence which was always under control, under the obedience of the state. And just a single disobedience... because they got the Nobel prize, and Russian government did not want them to have it, because it comes from a capitalist world, and to the government of Russia it seems like a bribery. This is how they purchase people, and these are the people who have all the secrets of science. They don't want to be world*-known, they don't want to be in contact with other scientists, they don't allow them to accept Nobel prize. But if the person insists, then the result is he is put into a hospital.

He goes on saying, that "I am perfectly healthy; why I am being put in the hospital?" They say,

"Because the doctors feel you are going to be sick. The early symptoms are there, you may not be aware."

And they go on injecting the person, he knows nothing of, and within fifteen days he is mad. They have made him through their chemicals mad. And when he is perfectly mad, then they produce him in the court that this man is insane, that he should be removed from his job, and that he should be sent into a mental asylum. And then nobody ever hears what happened to those people.

This is doing it scientifically. But every society has been doing it, and the fear has entered into to very deep realms of unconsciousness. And the work of therapy is to make the person free of that fear. If he is free of that fear, he is free of society, free of culture, free of religion, free of God, heaven, hell, and all nonsense.

All that nonsense is significant because of this fear, and to make that nonsense significant the fear has been created.

It is the ugliest crime one can think of. It is being done to every child around the world every moment, and the people who are doing have no bad intentions. They think they are doing something for the best of the child. They have been conditioned by their parents. They are transferring the same conditioning to their children.

But basically the whole humanity stands on the verge of madness. In deep therapy the fear grips suddenly, because the person is losing all the props, supports; the crowd is disappearing farther and farther away; he is being left alone. And suddenly there is darkness and there is fear. He has never been trained, disciplined for being alone and that is the function of meditation. No therapy is complete without meditation, because only meditation can give him his lost roots, his strength of being an individual. There is nothing to fear. But the conditioning is that you have to be afraid on each moment, each step.

The whole humanity lives in a paranoia. This humanity could have lived in paradise; it is living in hell.

So help the person to understand that this is nothing to be worried, there is nothing to be afraid. It is a created fear. Every child is born fearless. He can play with the snakes with no fear. He has no idea of fear or death or anything. Meditation brings the person back to his childhood. He is reborn.

So help the person to understand why the fear is. Make it clear that it is a phony phenomenon, imposed upon him. So there is no need to be worried: in this situation you can go crazy. Don't be afraid. Enjoy for the first time you have got a situation in which you can be crazy and yet not condemned, loved, respected.

And the group has to respect the person, love the person -- he needs it, and he will cool down. And he will come out of the fear with a great freedom, with great stamina, strength, integrity.

The second fear is of sexual orgasm. That too is created by religions. All religions are existing because they have turned man against his own energies. Sex is man's whole energy, his life energy, and religious prophets and messiahs, messengers of God, they all are doing the same work in different words, different languages, but their work is the same... to make man an enemy of himself.

And the basic strategy is -- because sex is the most powerful energy in you -- sex should be condemned, a guilt should be created. Then arises a problem for the individual. His nature is sensuous, sexual, and his mind is full of garbage against it. He is in a split. Neither he can drop the mind, because dropping the mind means dropping the society, the religion, the prophet, Jesus Christ, and God, everything. He's not capable to do that unless he has become an individual and is able to be alone without any fear.

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So man is afraid of sex as far as his mind is concerned, but his biology has nothing to do with the mind.

The biology has not received any information from the mind. There is no communication. The biology has its own way of functioning, so the biology will draw him towards sex and his mind will be standing there continuously condemning him. So he makes love, but in a hurry. That hurry has a very psychological reason. The hurry is he is doing something wrong. He is doing something against God, against religion. He is feeling guilty and he cannot manage not to do it, so the only compromise is: do it, but be quick. That avoids the orgasm.

Now there are implications upon implications. A man who has not known orgasm feels unfulfilled, frustrated, angry, because he had never been in a state which nature provides freely, where he could have relaxed totally and become one with the existence, at least for few moments.

Because of his hurry he cannot manage the orgasm. Sex has become equivalent to ejaculation. That is not true as far as nature is concerned. Ejaculation is only a part, which you can manage without orgasm.

You can reproduce children, so biology is not worried about your orgasm. Your biology is satisfied if you reproduce children, and they can be reproduced only by ejaculation, there is no need for orgasm.

Orgasm is a tremendous gift of nature. Man is deprived and because he is so quick in making love that the woman is deprived. The woman needs time to warm up. Her whole body is erotic, and unless her whole body is throbbing with joy, she will not be able to experience orgasm. For that there is no time.

So for millions of years women have been completely denied their birthright. That's why they have become so bitchy, so continuously nagging, always ready to fight. There is no possibility of having a conversation with a woman. You are living with a woman for years, but there is not a single conversation that you can recall when you both were sitting together talking about great things of life. No. All that you will remember will be fighting, throwing things, being nasty, but the woman is not responsible for it. She's being deprived of her whole possibility of blissfulness. Then she becomes negative.

And this has given chance to the priests. All the churches and the temples are filled up with women because they are the losers, more than men. Because more man's* orgasm is local; his whole body is not erotic. So his whole body does not suffer any damage if there is no orgasmic experience, but the woman's whole body suffers.

But it is good business for religions. Unless people are psychologically suffering, they will not come to the churches. They will not listen to all kinds of idiotic theologies. And because they are suffering, they want some consolation, they want some hope, at least after death. In life they know there is no hope; it is finished. And this gives a chance to religions to show to men and women both that sex is absolutely futile. It has no meaning, no significance. You are unnecessarily losing your energy, wasting your energy, and their argument seems to be correct because you have never experienced anything.

So by preventing the orgasmic experience religions have made men and women slaves. Now the same slavery functions for other vested interests. The latest priest is the psychoanalyst. Now he's exploiting the same thing. And I was amazed to know that almost all new priests, particularly Christians, study psychology in their theological colleges. Psychology, psychoanalysis have become their necessary part of education.

Now what psychology has to do with Bible? What psychoanalysis has to do with Jesus Christ? They are being trained in psychology and psychoanalysis, because it is clear that the old priest is disappearing, losing his grip over people. The priest has to be made up-to-date, so he can function not only as a religious priest, but also as a psychoanalyst, psychologist. Naturally the psychologist cannot compete with him. He has something more: religion.

But this whole thing has happened through a simple device of condemning sex. So when in your groups you find people fearing of orgasm, help them to understand that orgasm is going to make you more sane, more intelligent, less angry, less violent, more loving. Orgasm is going to give you your roots which have been taken away from you. So don't be worried. And mixed will be the fear in orgasm that one may go crazy. If in orgasm one goes crazy, help him to go crazy. Only then he will be able to have it in its totality.

But the orgasm relaxes every fiber of your mind, your heart, your body.

It is immensely important for meditation that a person has the experience of orgasm. Then you can make him understand what meditation is. It is an orgasmic experience with the whole existence. If the orgasm can be so beautiful and so beneficial, so healthy with a single human being, meditation is getting into oneness with the whole that surrounds you, from the smallest blade of grass to the biggest star, millions of years away.

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healthier, more whole, more intelligent, then the fear of orgasm is disappeared. And with it he is finished with the religion, with the psychoanalysis and all kinds of nonsense for which he is paying so tremendously.

And the third fear you say is of death. The first is of being alone. Much of the fear of death will be destroyed by the first experience of being alone and having no fear. The remaining much of the fear of death will be immediately destroyed by the experience of orgasm, because in the orgasm the person disappears.

The ego is no more. There is an experiencing, but the experiencer is no more.

These first two steps will help to solve the third step very easily. And with each step you have to go on deepening his meditativeness. Any therapy without meditation cannot help much. It is just super fear*, touching here and there, and soon the man will be same again. A real transformation has never happened without meditation, and these are beautiful situations as far as meditation is concerned.

So use the first to make him alone. Use the second to give him courage and tell him to drop all thoughts, just go crazily orgasmic. Don't bother what happens. We are here to take care of you. With these two steps the third will be very easy. That is the easiest. It looks the biggest fear of man. It is not true. You don't know death; how can you be afraid of it? You have always seen other people dying. You have never seen yourself dying. Who knows, you are maybe the exception, because there is no proof that you are going to die. Those who have died have given proof that they were mortals.

When I was in the university and learning logic from my professor, in every logic book, in every university around the world, the same Aristotelian syllogism is being taught. Man is mortal. Socrates is a man. Therefore Socrates is mortal. And when I was taught that syllogism* for the first time, I stood up and I said, "Wait. I may be the exception. Up to now I have been the exception. Why not tomorrow? About Socrates I accept the syllogism is true because he is dead, but what about me? What about you? What about all these people who are living? They have not died yet."

Experiencing death -- people dying in disgust, in misery, in suffering, in all kinds of pain, old age -- that gives you the fear of death. Because nobody has known the death of an enlightened man, how beautifully he dies, how joyously he dies. The moment of his death is of tremendous luminosity, silence, as if joy is radiating from every pore of his being. Those who are near him, those who have been fortunate to be near him, will be simply surprised that death is far more glorious than life has ever been.

But this kind of death happens only to people who have lived totally, without fear, who have lived orgasmically, without bothering about idiots what they are saying. They know nothing about it, and they go on saying about it.

The fear of death will be the simplest out of the three. You have to solve the first two, and then you tell the person that death is not the end of life. If you meditate deeply and reach to your innermost center you will suddenly find an eternal life current. The bodies... there have been many. There have been many forms to your being, but you are just the same. But it has to be not just a belief -- it has to be made their experience.

So remember one thing: your therapy groups should not be ordinary therapy -- just somehow whitewashing and giving a man a feeling that he has learned something, he has experienced something and after a week or two he is the same. There is not a single person in the whole world who is totally psychoanalyzed. And there are thousands of psychoanalysts doing psychoanalysis, and not a single case they have been able to complete yet, for the simple reason because they have nothing to do with meditation.

And without meditation you can go on painting on the surface, but the inner reality remains the same.

My therapists have to introduce meditation as the very center of therapy, and everything else should revolve around it. Then we have made therapy something really valuable. Then it is not only the need those who are sick or of those who are somehow mentally unbalanced, or of those who feel fears, jealousies, violence. This is a negative part of therapy.

Our therapies should be that we give the person his individuality back. We give him his childhood and innocence back. That we give him integrity, crystallization, so that he never fears death. And once the fear of death disappears all other fears are very small, they will follow it, they will simply disappear.

And we have to teach people how to live totally and wholly, against the teachings of all the religions.

They teach renounce. I teach rejoice.

Q:* MANY PEOPLE ARE COMING TO MY PROGRAMS WITH ADDICTION PROBLEMS. IN MY

OPINION THEY ARE NOT READY FOR MEDITATION. I HAVE TO TEACH THEM, TEACH THEM TO

TAKE THE NEEDLE OUT OF THEIR ARMS, TO STOP STEALING, TO STOP DESTROYING THEIR

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ENVIRONMENT, TO CHANGE THEIR NEGATIVE BEHAVIOR. HOW CAN I HELP THEM? I THINK

YOU ALMOST.... I WOULD LIKE TO TEACH THEM MEDITATION, BUT FIRST IT'S LIKE JUST

TRYING TO STOP THEM FROM ACTING CRAZY FIRST (INAUDIBLE) A:* No. You should not ask them to drop all these things. They cannot do it. You are asking the impossible. Because if a person is addicted to drugs, the problem is not the drugs, the problem is why he is addicted to drugs. Because life gives no joy, life gives nothing. Life is so empty, so meaningless. The drugs make at least few hours very colorful, psychedelic, there is great joy. One forgets this whole madhouse, this world.

You cannot tell them that we will teach you meditation only if you drop all these things first. They cannot drop. You have to be more compassionate to them. Let them be on drugs; there is no problem. You teach them meditation.

Meditation will help them to drop the drugs, not vice versa. Meditation can give them better experiences, far more superior and real. Drugs are only giving them hallucinations. And when somebody has to choose between a dream and a reality -- and a reality which is far more golden and far more beautiful than the dream -- I don't think anybody is going to choose the dream. But first let him have something to choose, to fall upon. He was empty, he was disgusted with the whole life.

Drugs have supported him. They are killing him. They are destroying him, but they have at least shown him beautiful dreams. Life cannot give any beautiful dreams either. The politicians, the priests, the pedagogues, altogether have made life so ugly, so difficult to live, so worthless, that any intelligent person is bound to find something or other. And meditation is not for sale. There are no meditation dealers from whom you can get an injection. You will have to learn it, that is the difficulty. You will have to go through a certain discipline.

So tell them that whatever you are doing is absolutely accepted. You are doing it not without reason, so you continue it. We give you a better drug which is not chemical. We give you meditation. Try it, and you will be surprised, the people who have been on drugs can enter into meditation more easily than other people.

This is unfortunate that drugs are illegal all over the world. In India for centuries seekers of truth have used drugs, all kinds of drugs. Even in my childhood there was no prohibition of any drugs. Just by my side of the house was a shop, all kinds of drugs were available. Only the shopkeeper needed a license, and that was only five rupees per year. The customers had nothing to do with law.

And for centuries India has experimented with drugs and found it immensely helpful, because the drug at least give you a certain hallucinatory experience. You become aware of something that you have never been aware. And the drug opens chemically doors into your being which are closed. The drug is not the last thing, but in the beginning it can be of immense help under right supervision. It will not make you a drug addict, it will lead you to meditation.

Because the Master can say to you, "This is only a dream and now I want you to introduce to a reality which is far more superior. And now you can believe me, because if just a chemical can give you such a beautiful experience.... I know both, you know only the drug. I say to you that now you try meditation techniques."

So before he becomes addicted to any drug, he starts experiencing tremendous ecstasies within himself.

The drug is left far behind. Now he can himself say that it was stupid to go on hanging around the drug. It was giving you only a hallucination, an illusion. What does it matter if in your dream you become the king of the whole world? In the morning you wake up in the same wretched hut. Then the more and more you need the drug, so you need not wake up. That's how drugs go on killing people.

But anything that is so destructive can be used in a constructive way. It has been used for thousands of years. But British government had no idea about it, that it can be used for some religious purposes, that it can be used for making man more peaceful, more silent, more aware.

In the West meditation has never existed. The West has known only prayer, and prayer is even more false than the drugs. Drugs at least have a chemical reality. The prayer has no reality at all. It is addressed to the ultimate lie; the god, who does not exist anywhere. You are simply wasting your time, your energy, and hoping that the answer will be coming. It never came, it never comes, it never can come.

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effects, bad effects. This can be so easily done, that not to do it there must be some great reason.

Why all the governments are prohibiting drugs? Because a man who goes into drugs cannot be sent to Viet Nam to kill innocent people. The man who goes into drugs forgets all about Catholicism, Protestantism, Hinduism, Mohammedanism. He doesn't care a bit. A man who goes into drugs becomes in many ways useless for the society, a burden. So the society is not interested; otherwise it is such a simple thing to make drugs so medically wholesome that anybody can use it as a preparation for meditation.

And there is no need to force millions of young people into jails. And not a single one from there is ever... drops the drugs. He manages even to get it in the prisons. And out of the prison he is again back, because you have nothing to offer in comparison.

If you take something away from people, at least you should offer in its place something better. Then nobody is going to feel hurt, feel imprisoned. So tell those people that you are simply victims of a stupid society, victims of a science who has become a slave of the governments. Otherwise man can reach to the moon. Man is capable to make nuclear weapons to destroy the whole earth seven hundred times. And man cannot make something better than LSD?

LSD is already better than alcohol, but alcohol is legal because two thousand years before Jesus was alcoholic. It is unfortunate that LSD was not available. Otherwise he and his twelve idiots would all be on needles; and then no government will prohibit it. It will be something religious -- you should not interfere in religion. But the difficulty is LSD is developed now.

But our therapists have to be compassionate to these people -- they are victims of a society. So don't ask them to drop it. They cannot because they don't have anything to fall upon. Why they should drop it?

So first tell them that this is good. Use every opportunity in such a way that it leads to meditation. Tell them, "You are perfectly right. What you did, any intelligent man would have done in your place. But there are better spaces available, which you are missing. And you being intelligent, your very drug addiction is an indication of your intelligence, of your rebellion."

Give them some juice that they are better individuals than the society has. And they certainly are! And then you can explain them meditation. Tell them to meditate. And never mention their drugs. You just insist on meditation. Tell them you can take the drug and do the meditation in the same moment. So the drug takes you into hallucinations, opens doors of your inner chemistry. And that is the most vulnerable moment. You can meditate easily.

I am not against drugs. I am not against anything in the world, because everything can be used in a creative way. Every poison can become a medicine, so why not drugs? But I cannot allow drugs in the commune, because that will become a trouble for the whole commune against the government. I would like to change the laws, but before the laws are changed -- of course, knowing perfectly well drugs can be of immense help -- they cannot be allowed in the commune.

All over the world intelligent people should raise their voices, protest, that why drugs are not being purified. When millions of young people are in it, they have every right to have it. And if you are afraid for the bad effects, then do something. It is so easy to do. You can make some things really so miraculously helpful to meditation and so superior to any drug that is available in the world, that nobody is going to choose any other drug against your drug. And once he gets into your drug, he is bound to find meditation.

But till it happens, we have to do something.

If somebody comes into your group who has this addiction, don't say anything against the drug, rather make the person feel less guilty. He is not committing a crime. He is doing the right thing in a wrong society. But this will destroy his health, this will destroy his whole life. And we have something which can give you better experiences, more authentic, more real. Experiences will automatically help the person out of the drugs.

Q:* MANY TIMES WHEN I WORK WITH PEOPLE I FEEL VERY FRUSTRATED IF THEY WALK

OUT BEFORE I BELIEVE THEY ARE READY TO LEAVE. DOES BEING A THERAPIST MEAN

LEARNING TO LIVE WITH THIS? AM I TRYING TO PLAY GOD AND INTERFERE WITH THE WAY

PEOPLE WANT TO LIVE THEIR LIVES?

A:* There is no need to be afraid that you are playing God. Many are doing it. Nobody is entitled to do it. The best that you can be is not playing the role of God, but being a real friend.

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to make the patient feel that for the first time he is being respected as an individual, as a human being. If you start playing the God, he is again humiliated. That's what he has been suffering his whole life in the world.

The priest is playing the God, the politician is playing the God, and there are small gods, the whole hierarchy. Hindu religion have thirty-three million gods. Perhaps they need so many for a hierarchy to run this whole universe, the whole bureaucracy. And then there are small gods everywhere.

A therapist has to be humble, has to be a friend. He is not a priest. He is not there to dictate your life. He is there simply to stand on your feet. He is not going to walk on your behalf. If you fall he will help you to get up again, but you have to walk on your own. Everybody has to walk on his own.

But it is very easy for people to play God, particularly in a therapeutic situation where there are people who are available to you and whatever you want to do, they are ready to do it. Their trust should not be in any way misused. Their trust is of immense value. You can pay it only by friendliness.

Make it clear from the very beginning that I have nothing to do with running your life. Your life is your life. I can help you to be clear, to be more alert, to be more conscious, and then it is up to you. It is your life: whatever you want to do, do it! Do it more intelligently, more lovingly, more creatively. I can teach you how to be more creative, but I am not going to tell you that you start painting.

Just teaching how to be more creative is not running anybody's life. The person may start painting, the person may start sculpture, the person may start playing a flute, a guitar. The person may start dancing, or the person may find some other way of creativity. That is up to them. What they make out of their life is none of your business. Your business is that whatever they do....

I'm reminded of one great mystic, Nagarjuna. He was one of the rarest men who have ever walked on the earth. People like Aristotle and great logicians of the West stand nowhere in his comparison. His reasoning, his logic, is just so immense, so complex, so penetrating. Yet the man was such a humble man.

Naked, he roamed around India as a beggar. Kings were his followers.

One queen gave him a begging bowl, because that was his only possession. She insisted that she wants to change the begging bowl. He should give his wooden begging bowl which was rotting, old. And she said I have made a begging bowl for you. So he changed it.

When he opened the cover of the begging bowl he said, "This is going to create unnecessary difficulty."

It was a golden bowl, studded with diamonds. He said, "I am a naked man, and this begging bowl studded with diamonds, so precious, I cannot manage to keep it, even for a few hours. Because just now after my lunch I am going to sleep and I sleep in the ruins outside the city in the temples, anywhere I can find a shelter. Who is going to take care of this bowl?" But he said, "Let us see what happens."

As he was going back to his ruins where he was staying, a thief saw the bowl in the hands of a naked man. He could not believe his eyes. He had never seen such a precious thing, and he was o studded with diamonds, so precious, I cannot manage to keep it, even for a few hours. Because just now after my lunch I am going to sleep and I sleep in the ruins outside the city in the temples, anywhere I can find a shelter. Who is going to take care of this bowl?" But he said, "Let us see what happens."

As he was going back to his ruins where he was staying, a thief saw the bowl in the hands of a naked man. He could not believe his eyes. He had never seen such a precious thing, and he was o studded with diamonds, so precious, I cannot manage to keep it, even for a few hours. Because just now after my lunch I am going to sleep and I sleep in the ruins outside the city in the temples, anywhere I can find a shelter. Who is going to take care of this bowl?" But he said, "Let us see what happens."

As he was going back to his ruins where he was staying, a thief saw the bowl in the hands of a naked man. He could not believe his eyes. He had never seen such a precious thing, and he was one of the greatest thieves around. He said, "How this man can manage? At least in the night he will sleep." He dropped all other businesses. He said, "For twenty-four hours I will not be available. I have to follow this man. Who knows where he is going, and he seems to be a little strange type. Where he got this begging bowl?"

Nagarjuna reached inside the ruins of the temple. The thief was hiding behind a wall, near a window.

Nagarjuna laughed loudly and he said, j"Don't sit there unnecessarily. Just come in." The thief became very much afraid that how he managed to know? He knew because that man was following him out of the town, went on following him, and as he entered the temple, he watched where he is going. Because it was a ruin, so he could see. He has gone at the back and sitting behind a wall. He said, "Don't unnecessarily... that doesn't look good. I am your host. You are my guest. Come in."

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business to interfere between you and the bowl. You take it, but be careful. It is a gift from the queen. Don't get into unnecessary trouble. So be careful, and just run away before anybody sees you."

The thief could not believe this man. He is giving him such a precious thing, and even suggesting ways how he can protect himself. And finally Nagarjuna said, "If you are caught, don t be worried, just tell I have given it to you. And this is the truth. You have not stolen. I have given it to you, and I have every right over my begging bowl. So don'

t be worried if you are caught -- and I cannot think that you will not be caught. Where you are going to sell this begging bowl? Where you are going to sell these precious stones? Everybody knows those precious stones belong to the queen. Be careful. And I will be here two, three days more. If any trouble arises, you can always send a message to me."

The thief listened to Nagarjuna and said, that "In my life I have never seen such a man. Now that you have given me such a precious gift, can I ask you one thing: how you became so courageous, so non-greedy, so beautiful? What has made you the man you are?"

Nagarjuna said, "You can try it. It is a simple method of meditation. Do everything with consciousness, awareness. Anything done in awareness is right; anything done in unawareness is wrong. That is my whole philosophy."

The thief said, "I will try. I have never tried anything in my life, but whatever you are saying I can believe in it. I can trust you."

The next day the thief came back. He said, "You are really dangerous. Last night I entered into the richest man's house. I opened the lock of the room where he is preserving tremendously valuable things. But a trouble arose: I could not enter the room. The door was open, the things were available, the man was fast asleep. Such an opportunity has never happened before. It must have been your blessing, just that I came to you. This fortune came on me from nowhere.

But the trouble was whenever I will take my step up I lose my consciousness. I became interested into things what to take, what not to take. Can I manage everything in one time, or I will have to come twice? I started thinking and forgot being aware. And as I remembered it, I had to pull my feet back because I had promised you. And I cannot go against the promise of such a man. So I had to return empty-handed.

I have brought your begging bowl; you take it back. And initiate me into your disciple. Now I cannot steal any more -- my awareness prevents me."

Nagarjuna said, "It is your life. If you want to become a disciple, perfectly good. But you are deciding it.

I never decide anybody's life."

There will be people who may be on drugs, who may be thieves, who may be doing all kinds of crimes.

And it is human to tell them not to do this, not to do that. And then strangely you start playing the God, you start managing other people's life. Don't ever do that, because that is simply inhuman. It is worse than his stealing, than his drugs, than his wrong kind of life. Playing God is worse than all of that.

Remember to be a friend. And you will be able to help many, many people, just by being friend.

Q: WHAT IS YOUR VISION OF THERAPY IN THE FUTURE?

A: It has a tremendous potential to replace all the religions of the world, but it is not going to become a religion itself. Its function is to destroy all that religions have done to man.

It is a very suicidal work. Once you have destroyed all that religions have done to man, and man is healthy and whole, therapy is needed no more. But it has to be done. It is just like a medicine. You are sick, you need a medicine, and when you are healthy, you throw the bottle out of the window.

Therapy has to do something very great, but if it succeeds, that will mean the end of therapy too. And therapists should be proud of the phenomenon that they are not replacing any parasites, they are simply deprogramming humanity. Their work that of a cleaner who has cleaned the place and now his work is finished. There is no need.

Humanity can be absolutely spiritually, psychologically healthy. Just we have to destroy all the hindrances that are preventing man to be healthy and whole. So therapy has a great future in the sense that it can destroy all the religions. It can deprogram people. But it has also to remember that there is a temptation always of reprogramming people. That has not to be done.

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world, but just a small change. Now the priest is replaced by the therapist.

I don't want my therapist to replace these ugly monsters who have destroyed, for millions of years, all joy, all life, all love, that every human being is born with. Cut their roots. Make man free. And feel blessed that you are not getting tempted to take their place.

So may therapists particularly have to remember that other therapists are going to take the place of the priest. They have already taken. The psychoanalyst is the new priest, and he is safeguarding the vested interests. He is already doing that. And he can do it better than any priest because he is more aware of the workings of mind.

But my therapists' work is really great and dangerous. Great, because we have to destroy all. We have to undo everything that religions have done to humanity. And then, your work done, you feel contented, relaxed. You can become a gardener, you can become a farmer, you can become a woodcutter.

If my therapists succeed around the world, then soon there will be no religion, and then there is no need of any therapy.

Okay, Veeresh?

Q: AMAZING, AMAZING.

The Last Testament, Vol 2

Chapter #17

Chapter title: Whirlwind Of Awakening

6 September 1985 pm in Jesus Grove

Archive code: 8509065

ShortTitle: LAST217

Audio:

Yes

Video:

Yes

Length: 82 mins

[NOTE: This discourse is published in the book: The Last Testament, Volume 1, as Chapter 7.]

Ma Yoga Pratima

RAJNEESHPURAM,

OREGON

QUESTION: BELOVED BHAGWAN, YOU HAVE SAID THAT SOMETIMES YOU SAY THINGS TO

SHOCK AND DISTURB PEOPLE'S SLEEP, AND THAT THERE ARE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE IN THE

WORLD WHO NEED JUST A LITTLE BIT OF SHAKING AND THEY WILL AWAKE. ARE THESE

PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING SHOCKED BY YOU NOW ALSO LISTENING TO YOU? ARE THEY

STARTING TO BECOME CONTEMPORARIES? ARE THEY STARTING TO WAKE UP?

ANSWER: They certainly are tossing and turning in their sleep! But there is great hope. They are trying hard to remain asleep. I shock them, they take a turn, pull the blanket over, but I am not to be defeated by their stupidity. I am determined to wake them up by each and every means possible. I will say things which are not true, I will do things which I am not supposed to do, but I will wake them up. And a few are certainly waking up, coming closer, feeling more, understanding more. My efforts have not been in vain.

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Perhaps nobody has been rewarded so much as I am rewarded. For the first time so many people are so much interested in a man just for his mere love and his presence. I do not walk on water, I do not do any miracles, because those are methods to attract people and their attention. But then the person comes to you not because of you, he comes to you because you are doing miracles. It is the miracles that are pulling him towards you. A few people gathered around Jesus; he was raising the dead, walking on water, turning water into wine, doing every kind of thing in which people are interested, although it was not of any worth. But even then, not many came.

And I am consistently avoiding anything that can be a distraction to you. I am making it absolutely clear that you have to be here just for me, not for any other motive. If there is any other motive, you are not with me. If there is no motive, then there is the possibility of your being awakened.

So I have not given any excuse for my people to be around me. In fact, I have given them every excuse to escape from me, to avoid me. Being with me does not bring you respectability. That was well-considered by me from the very beginning, that with me you should have to lose your respect, your honor, your morality. These will be the tests whether you are going to risk anything to be with me. And if thousands of people have decided to be with me at any cost, that is a determination, a commitment of tremendous import.

That means they have tasted something of my presence.

The people who are now around me are not here just for my words. By now they are perfectly aware that you can play with the words, there is nothing in it. They are perfectly aware that they are not to cling to my words, because tomorrow I am going to change. Why cling unnecessarily? I am absolutely unreliable. And to trust in a man who is so unreliable is authentic trust. It goes beyond thinking of consequences. It goes beyond fear. It goes beyond all words. I may contradict, I may say anything, it does not matter to my people.

What matters is my presence, my love towards them, their love towards me.

And that is going to create a whirlwind of awakening around the whole world. It is just the beginning.

The wildfire can take wings any moment. And, fortunately, we are in the right time, when people are already fed up with their sleep, fed up with all their sleeping pills, fed up with all the dreams they have been seeing, and fed up with all those people who have been simply providing drugs to console them.

This is the right moment when we can fetch people very easily, because they are themselves trying to get out of the bed; but they have been asleep so long, it has become almost their second nature. Hence, a little effort is needed to separate them from their second nature and make them aware of their original face.

Everybody has within him the eternal flame of awareness. Howsoever hidden behind walls, it is always there. Nothing can destroy it. All that we have to do is to destroy the walls -- and the walls are only of words, scriptures, beliefs.

I am training my people -- without calling it a training -- how to play with words, how to play with arguments, and how to destroy any argument without much effort. These are the ways those walls have to be broken. I am speaking against every prejudice, against every religion, every ideology, and giving you basic insight into how you can destroy all these hindrances. At the moment they are removed.... Awareness is not something that comes out of the blue. You suddenly find a great surprise: it has always been there --

you were just keeping your back towards it.

Many are waking up. They have slept for millions of years, so we need not be in a hurry. And whatever time they take is not much, because the sleep is so long that if they take a few years to wake up, they are waking up quite early.

It is happening, and it is a kind of happening that once it starts it is infectious, contagious. Then it goes on and on from one person to another person.

We have to make this whole earth fully awake, and we are capable now. I can say with confidence that I have the right people with me, the intelligent people who can do every kind of work to help humanity to become conscious.

So I am not worried at all about their unconsciousness, neither am I worried about our capacity to wake them up. Our capacity to wake them is far bigger and greater than their capacity to remain asleep. And this will be some miracle. Walking on water is silly. You can cross the lake in a boat, there is no need....

In Ramakrishna's life there is a story. A man called Totapuri, a very famous saint of those days, came to Ramakrishna's ashram near Calcutta in Dakshineshwar. It was known that Totapuri walked on water. And it must be true because it is not a two-thousand-year-old history, it was just at the end of the past century.

There are still people who have seen Ramakrishna and Totapuri alive. I have met those people, and they say that Totapuri was a man of miracles, but Ramakrishna reduced him to nothing. They were sitting on the bank of the Ganges and he just challenged Ramakrishna, "Come on, why not have a little walk on the 1/08/07

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Ganges?" Now, poor Ramakrishna was not a man of miracles. He said, "That's a good idea, but I have disciples who have better ideas. Just look up." They both looked up. On the cloud was sitting one of Ramakrishna's disciples. Ramakrishna said, "My people travel by clouds, they don't walk on water."

Totapuri was amazed, but he was more amazed when Ramakrishna said, "That was just a projection.

There was nobody on the cloud. It was just my deep projection, the way a film is projected on the screen. I can project any idea through my eyes, forcibly, on to any screen. That cloud, that white cloud, functioned as a screen. There was nobody, and we don't do any stupid things like that. And I would like to ask how many years it took to learn the art of walking on water?" Totapuri said, "It was an arduous discipline. I had to go to Tibet to learn it. For thirty years I was under arduous training, and then finally I succeeded.

Ramakrishna laughed madly. He said, "You are crazy. When I want to go to the other side of the Ganges, I just tell the boatman." Anyway, in those days, just one paise -- one rupee consists of one hundred paise -- just one paise was enough. And even that was not taken from Ramakrishna; no boatman would take from such a beautiful man, so pure, so innocent. So he said, "At the most, what you have learned in thirty years is worth one paise, and thirty years is a long time.

"And what is the point of it all? Even if you walk on water or sit on a cloud, how does it make you more peaceful, more silent, more aware, more meditative? In what way do you achieve godliness by walking on water? It is sheer stupidity. You wasted your thirty years. And you wanted to brag about it. You forget all that you have learned, and start from scratch, because I can see you are just as fast asleep and ignorant as anybody else. You have just learned a few tricks. Those tricks don't bring any transformation, but they bring millions of people to worship you.

Many saints in India have confessed to me that they do certain kinds of tricks just to attract people so that they can be thought religious. I used to tell them, "From the very beginning, you are cheating them.

You yourself are becoming irreligious.

"And they are not coming here to become religious in the first place, they are just coming to see the tricks. Any magician in the street is doing all those things that you are doing. Magicians are doing even better things on the street corners. In the whole day perhaps they may gather five rupees. How can you think that you have attained to some spirituality just by attracting a crowd? And the crowd is going to be of wrong people." So from the very beginning my effort has been not to attract wrong people, not to attract people with motivations which have nothing to do with awakening.

And I can say to you that I have succeeded in attracting only the right people. Even if once in a while a wrong person came in accidentally, I have managed to get rid of him not by telling him to leave -- because that is insulting somebody -- but by his having the idea to leave, that out of his freedom he is going into the world. And I have accepted it: "That's perfectly good. People should come in with their freedom, should go out with their freedom."

But this is not true. The people who have left had to leave because somehow I had already disconnected myself from them. They were no more nourished, they were hanging around but starving. Of this they cannot be aware in their sleep. I wanted them to go away for the simple reason that they were wasting their time in a wrong place. It is a wrong place for those people because it cannot fulfill their desires. They are wasting their time and they are wasting the time of my people. My people are working in some way to create an energy field where people can become awakened, and they are not here for that purpose. They are an unnecessary load.

So I gave them the idea to go to Santa Fe. All the camels are gathering there in Santa Fe. They are known as the dirty dozen; because only one dozen camels are there, they have become famous as the dirty dozen. A great achievement! And now they are hankering to come back; they are writing letters to people that they are dreaming of me, that they are dreaming of meeting me, that they are continuously missing the commune -- those letters are indications of their state -- but their egos are coming in the way. How long?...

Sooner or later they will have to recognize the fact that they missed an opportunity.

And what are they doing in Santa Fe? What can they do? They are all asleep. They will have to come back, but this time they will be coming with a right motive. So this gap of losing contact with the commune, with sannyas, was absolutely essential for their growth. Now they will be coming, not accidentally, but very consideredly. And this coming will be significant. They have to be welcomed with great joy.

Q: THERE IS A LOT OF OPPOSITION TO WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE. YOUR ADVICE TO

PEOPLE IS TO BE INTELLIGENT IN THE FIGHT AGAINST THE POLITICIANS, TO USE LEGAL

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METHODS, TO USE THE DEMOCRACY. IF THESE LEGAL METHODS WORK AND THE CASES ARE

WON, WON'T THE POLITICIANS BE EVEN MORE FRUSTRATED, EVEN MORE ANGRY AT THIS

COMMUNITY? OR DO YOU SEE A POSSIBILITY OF A CHANGE HAPPENING IN THE ATTITUDE

TOWARDS RAJNEESHEES?

A: Both things will happen. We are not going to use any illegal means in the fight with the politicians.

In their sleep they have written a constitution, not knowing that somebody can use it against them. And because they were writing in sleep, they have tried hard to make it as beautiful, as democratic, as freedom loving, as respectful of the individual as possible. They were not aware that there will come a time three hundred years afterwards when a few fully awake people will use their constitution against them.

So my effort is of multidimensional interest. One: I want to prove to the whole world that we are saving the Constitution of America from the Americans; that the Constitution of America has to be saved, not only from the Soviet Union, but from Americans, too. And these are the most dangerous enemies, because the Constitution is in their hands. They have not been challenged up to now, because nobody has ever thought that they were against the Constitution. Others were as asleep as they are. Now they are fighting a battle which is unique in history.

So when we can use their own Constitution, their own laws to defeat them, why should we lose that opportunity? We win, and we make the whole world aware that Americans are not doing what they say, that they are doing just the opposite. We are going to expose them to the whole world, that this is a hypocrisy, not democracy. And we want it to become democracy.

Our victory is absolutely certain unless they burn their Constitution and declare America a fascist state.

In that way also, we will be the winners: we will have exposed the greatest hypocrisy in the whole history of man.

Secondly, the moment we win, many of the politicians who are intelligent enough will have a change of heart immediately. They will see now that it is not a question of the red people winning, it is a question that the red people have proved they are for the Constitution, "and we have fallen in the opposite camp." It is good to be back with the Constitution because the American masses will not forgive anybody who is destroying their Constitution. While winning in the courts on the basis of democratic ideals and values, we will be able to convince the masses, too, that we are not enemies, that we are their friends, and that the people they used to think of as their friends are their enemies. So the politicians who are intelligent enough will be immediately on our side. Only the idiots will not change; but they don't matter, they will lose their respectability on each standpoint.

For example, this attorney general of Oregon imposed a $600,000 fine as punishment for making tents without permission. He never came here. He simply assumed by rumors that those tents were permanent structures -- only permanent structures need permission, tents don't. Of course, they were a new kind of tent.

We had used material which is used in permanent structures, but nowhere in the American Constitution does it say that the material which is used in permanent structures cannot be used in tents. The definition of the tent is that you can put it up within ten minutes and you can fold it away within ten minutes. More than that, there is no constitutional way to define a tent. Of what it is made does not matter. It may be made of steel, that does not matter. The question is that it can be folded within ten minutes.

So I told my people, "You don't argue, you simply take a tent to the court. There is no need for any argument. Just ask permission to put up the tent which is in question, and the judges and the juries can decide whether it is a tent or a permanent structure. If it is a permanent structure, then we are punishable; but if it is not, then to put such a big amount of punishment -- $600,000 -- without any inquiry, without any inspection, without anything, is absolutely undemocratic.

And that's what they did. The magistrate could see that this is a temporary structure. Within ten minutes they can put it up, within ten minutes they can fold it away and put it into a bag. Who says this is a permanent structure? White Houses are not made in ten minutes and folded in ten minutes. He simply dismissed the case, that there was no case at all, these are tents. Now, this is a great slap on the face of the attorney general, that he does not even know how to apply law, how to apply the Constitution. A simple demonstration proved him wrong. No argumentation was needed, no legal fight was needed, and we had invited him, "First you come and see, and then whatever you want to do, you do."

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arising, that to fight with these people they are going to be great losers, not only of the cases, but of their respectability, of their political status. It is better not to create any fight with these people. On the contrary, whatever you can do legally, help them.

This is going to happen, and there is nothing that we have done wrong. We have not gone against any democratic value, we have not gone against any law. We have functioned very carefully, and it is a good opportunity for us that now within America itself they find an enemy who is invincible. Now they cannot go on pretending to the world. We are here to expose them. We are going to take over the whole world media to expose America.

My reason is that I would like America to be a real democracy. And that is our stand. They are thinking that these are small matters of land use laws and this and that. We are not bothered about those small things.

Soon we will drag them into the open, and they will have to decide whether they stand for democracy or they stand for a fascist regime.

And this is going to be the most difficult situation they have ever faced. They are frightened of a small commune of five thousand people. The world's biggest military power is frightened of five thousand people.

This should give you some insight that if you are right, and if you are courageous enough to fight for it, then no might is bigger than right. It just needs courage, and we have enough courage because we have nothing to lose.

We have everything to gain and nothing to lose. They have everything to lose and nothing to gain. What can they gain? Even if they destroy this whole commune by dropping bombs on it, what are they going to gain? Just the Big Muddy Ranch. But they will spoil their whole reputation around the world, and the Soviet Union will say, "That's what we have been saying for sixty years, that America is a hypocritical country. It is not democracy. Innocent people who were not doing any harm to anybody...."

You will have the support of the whole world. That's why they cannot do any harm, and that's why I have started talking to the world media. Before they can do any harm, I want the whole world to know about the situation, about our commune, and about American hypocrisy. Before they take any step to destroy, I have already taken the step to make the whole world aware of the situation. That is creating fear in them.

We don't have any power to fight, but there is no need for any power. Intelligence is enough. It is far more powerful than any nuclear weapons. And if five thousand people stand together intelligently, meditatively, they will create such a tremendous energy that no power can stand against them.

So don't be worried about anything. Just rejoice -- and fight!

Q: YOU SAY YOU ARE CONDEMNED BY SOCIETY BECAUSE THEY ARE MISERABLE AND YOU

AND THOSE AROUND YOU ARE HAPPY. DOES SOCIETY SEE IT IN THOSE TERMS? ARE PEOPLE

CONSCIOUS THAT THIS IS THE REASON THEY ARE AGAINST YOU?

A: The society will have to see it. Right now it is blind, but we will not leave it to remain blind. We are going to use every means to make the society aware of why they are against me, why there is a condemnation of a commune which is in no way doing any harm to anybody. We are just minding our own business. We don't have time to harass anybody.

It may take a little time for them to understand why they are condemning us, but they will have to come to that conclusion. It is so clear, how long can they deny it? It is not a fiction, it is the reality that the miserable person is always jealous of the person who is living joyously. The poor are jealous of the rich, the ugly are jealous of the beautiful, the sick are jealous of the healthy. This is a simple psychological phenomenon.

By this condemnation they try to hide their inferiority complex. But the inferiority complex is there; in fact, by their condemnation they have made it known to everybody. Otherwise, why not ignore these five thousand people? In the four billion population of the world, we are not even a drop in the ocean. Why bother about us? Ignore us. But nobody is capable of ignoring us.

I am here, and they are talking about me in the German parliament, in the Dutch parliament, in the English parliament. Strange -- a man who never goes anywhere, who has nothing to do with anybody's country or politics -- why should they be so much concerned?

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and our lives and our existence and our way of life. How long can it be ignored? Our laughter is going to resound around the earth. And when they see that it is happening not only here but also in every commune around the world, they will have to think again... perhaps something is wrong with them. And we will be insisting that something is wrong with their psychology.

Now we are using every means -- newspapers, magazines, radios, television. We are going to cover the whole world continuously with what we think and what is our analysis of the situation. And the media has understood one thing: that we cannot be ignored. Otherwise, who cares about a small commune of five thousand people here? Why should world media be interested?

They are interested because they know that these people are making a significant contribution. They are bringing into the light something which society has been hiding for centuries: its ugliness, its repressiveness, its sadness. We are uncovering their wounds. Naturally, when you uncover somebody's wound he gets angry, he tries to fight you; but how can he ignore the wound that you have uncovered? And we are not doing only one thing, uncovering the wound... I could have done that alone; no movement, no communes were needed for that. But that would have been just a negative work. They would have covered it again.

Now we are opening their wounds and we are supplying every help so that those wounds can be removed, healed, and they can be as healthy and whole as our people. We are here not only to transform ourselves, but to bring to light the technique of transformation for everybody. Because they are are poor victims, they need all compassion. They may be against me, that does not make any difference. My compassion to them is the same. It becomes even deeper because they are so much against that they don't know whom they are opposing. A surgeon is trying to remove a cancer from them, and they are fighting with the surgeon. The situation is hilarious but it is not going to be for long.

And it does not matter whether it is long or not. We are living our every moment; we are not sacrificing any moment to any other idea, to any future. And we are becoming a more and more prominent reality in the whole world.

This situation is going to change at least the intelligent and young people very quickly, and if young people change, the old people start shaking in their determinations, in their conclusions. And in fact, we are not directly interested in the old people. Our interest is directed towards the young and the fresh, because they will understand us immediately. And their understanding us is going to change their old father, their old mother. We are putting a time bomb with every young man in every house in the world. It is going to explode. Of course, our time bombs are not made with gunpowder, so nobody can detect them. Our weapons are very subtle. They are invisible to the eyes.

I can see the work growing, maturing. More and more intelligent people are becoming sympathetic. I don't need everybody to become a sannyasin; I need only a small group in every country to be totally devoted to sannyas and turn the whole intelligentsia into sympathy. That's enough.

The coming revolution in the world is not going to be of the poor against the rich, the proletariat against the bourgeois. The coming revolution in the world is going to be between the stupidity of humanity and the intelligentsia. Nobody has yet proposed the whole program, but that's where I am leading you all: towards a new kind of revolution by human intelligence against human stupidity.

So we need not have everybody become a sannyasin. We need small groups of sannyasins everywhere who can radiate and make people aware of our reality. All that is needed is the sympathy of the intelligentsia, the creative people in the world, the musicians, the poets, the Nobel prize winning scientists, the sculptors, the dancers, the engineers, the doctors -- all the people who are contributing something to human wisdom, life, beauty, health. We want those people's sympathy.

That's enough, and the revolution will be on its way. Without any effort to create a revolution, the revolution has already started. This is what old Lao Tzu called effortless effort. We are not making any effort for the revolution; our whole work is meditation. But the outcome is going to be a tremendous revolution, the only revolution which can change this earth into a paradise.

Q: YOU HAVE SPOKEN OF THE NEED FOR COURAGE. WHERE DOES COURAGE COME FROM?

IS THERE ANY WAY TO STIMULATE PEOPLE'S COURAGE?

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your own innermost being. Many dimensions open up with your experience of yourself Yes, courage is needed, and for that you will have to go to the same source. It is in a way a very simple phenomenon. There is nothing complex in it because there is only one source for every great value. So by achieving one thing, you achieve all great values simultaneously.

You ask me, "Is there some way to stimulate courage?" That's what the commune is for. Everything in human life is contagious, because no man is an island. We are all part of one infinite continent. So anything that is happening in me, if you are available it immediately starts happening in you. Something is triggered.

Carl Gustav Jung has coined a new word for it: synchronicity. It is a beautiful word. And everybody experiences it. For example, here... silence is your synchronicity. Everybody is so silent that you are surrounded from everywhere by a pool of silence.

The same is true about love, about sadness, about blissfulness. Just sit with a few people who are sad, miserable, and soon you will find that something in you is becoming sad, something in you is becoming miserable. And when you leave this company of miserables, you will feel sucked, tired, as Lf your energy has been exploited.

Everybody in the world once in a while has experienced the other polarity, too. You may be sad, but you meet a few friends who are laughing, joking, enjoying, dancing, and you forget all about your sadness, all about your worries. Something overpowers you. Their energy is much bigger than your misery. Your misery simply slips out of you. You start dancing, singing, your face changes, and afterwards you will feel so much nourished, so much stronger that even though those people have left, the misery cannot enter you again.

Now you are far stronger and far more nourished. Misery needs a certain weakness, certain loopholes, a certain readiness on your part to be miserable.

But we are living in a kind of human ocean which we cannot see -- just like the air which we cannot see, but which surrounds us all. What is my breath this moment may become your breath in the next moment. It is changing its place every moment. You are inhaling, exhaling; everybody is inhaling, exhaling. Everybody is inhaling from somebody else; everybody is exhaling into somebody else. In the same way, you are continuously inhaling and exhaling all other inner values, which are even more subtle than the air. There is a constant exchange, uninterrupted even in your sleep.

I have made thousands of experiments about everything before I have said anything about it For example, I have tried to make a sleeping man miserable or happy in his sleep. He does not know what is happening, he is fast asleep. But in the darkness, twelve meditators are sitting, projecting sadness, misery.

Soon the person starts moaning, may have nightmares that somebody is killing him, that something really terrible is happening to him. He starts grinding his teeth. He really wants to get out of it. We have observed his hands, holding his blanket as a last resort. Perhaps he is drowning, or who knows what.

And we have changed the same person by changing our projection. We have projected love, joy, rejoicing, dancing, laughter. Just a thought being projected towards the man by twelve people who have a certain capacity of meditation, and the moaning stops. His hands get relaxed on the blanket. His face is no more distorted. Soon he starts giggling. You cannot believe it when you see a sleeping person behaving in this way. He is smiling. You have never seen his face so beautiful as he is looking at this moment.

This is the function of the commune, where so many people are just happy for no reason at all, where life is just fun, every moment of it. We can radiate from this commune for miles around.

New people coming from some other country outside America have reported to me that the moment they enter Rancho Rajneesh something in the air changes. Suddenly they feel as if they have come home, and they have never been here before. Perhaps never in their millions of lives -- I don't think they have been born in the Big Muddy Ranch, but suddenly they feel at home, as they have never felt even in their own home. And as they come closer to the commune, a great joy starts arising in them for no visible reason.

We have not only created an oasis in the desert, we have created an oasis of consciousness, too, which is far deeper, far more powerful, far more significant. And soon, as our other communes in the world will be becoming more mature....

My idea is to make a belt of energy around the world, so in fact we become one commune as far as the energy belt is concerned. So all the communes may be far away from each other in space, but in the inner world they are all together. You don't have only five thousand people's strength, you have the strength of one million sannyasins, wherever they may be. And each commune has one million sannyasins' support. So if we have two hundred communes, the inner logic and arithmetic is that we have already 200,000,000

sannyasins -- that much energy, the quality, the quantity. And that is going to transform the world.

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have been experimenting on small scales until I have become absolutely certain of something. I have not tried to make any effort for expansion. We are in perfectly good shape -- it could not be better -- to do the job that we have chosen.

We can be so full of bliss that we can fill the whole universe with our bliss, our rejoicing our dance, our laughter. And to me, this is revolution, an absolute psychological change in the atmosphere of the world.

The Last Testament, Vol 2

Chapter #18

Chapter title: You Cannot Betray Me

7 September 1985 pm in Jesus Grove

Archive code: 8509075

ShortTitle: LAST218

Audio:

Yes

Video:

Yes

Length: 116 mins

[NOTE: This discourse is published in the book: The Last Testament, Volume 1, as Chapter 9.]

Ma Yoga Pratima

RAJNEESHPURAM

OREGON

QUESTION: BELOVED BHAGWAN, WHEN ASKED WHETHER RAJNEESHEES AND THEIR

NEIGHBORS IN OREGON COULD EVER COEXIST PEACEFULLY, YOUR REPLY WAS, "NEVER."

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY NEVER? WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY COEXISTENCE?

ANSWER: The word coexistence has a very bad political connotation. Coexistence simply means that the two parties remain hostile, that there is no other way for reconciliation, for meeting, for merging.

Coexistence is the least that can be done.

For example, the Soviet Union and America are in coexistence. Coexistence actually means cold war: full of hostility, ready to fight, waiting for the right moment when you are more powerful, yet on the surface playing the game that we are human beings -- peace-loving people -- we can coexist.

I hate the word coexistence. The journalist who had asked it did not wait even to inquire why I had simply denied it in a single word, never. She thought that she had understood it.

I want one existence, not coexistence. Truth knows no compromise. Lies are always ready to compromise because they have nothing to lose; they have nothing in them. But truth cannot compromise.

By compromising, it becomes untrue. If we are true, then those who are wrong should merge with us. If they are true, we are ready to merge with them. The question of coexistence does not arise.

I believe in one existence, but I don't think the journalist would have come to this conclusion from a single word when I said, "Never." I am open; my commune is open. We are ready to discuss intellectually, humanly, everything that the neighbors may have against us. If they are right, we will change ourselves; but if we are right, they have to change themselves. The question of coexistence does not arise.

Truth has to be victorious. From which side it comes does not matter. If they have the truth, then we will naturally become part of them. And that is something to be understood because that means dropping all hostility, dropping all anger, hatred, fear.

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In coexistence, you don't drop anything, you simply accept the fact that there is no way -- they are here, we are here -- and somehow we have to manage to exist together. But what kind of existence will that be --

somehow? There is no joy, there is no friendship, there is no love. In the same sentence it was asked, "Is there any possibility for a peaceful coexistence?" For that, too, my answer is, "Never."

People don't know what peace is. How can you be peaceful with anybody? First you have to be peaceful with yourself. And if you are not peaceful with yourself, how can you be peaceful with me or anybody else?

We are already peaceful; we are not creating any trouble for anybody. We are not in any way unkind to anybody. The neighbors have to learn how to be peaceful with themselves. The question of being peaceful with your neighbors arises only because you are not peaceful, your neighbor is not peaceful -- or perhaps one is peaceful, the other is not peaceful -- so it is not a question of agreement that you will live peacefully together. If I am peaceful and you are peaceful, we live peacefully without any declaration about peace.

If you see the history of man, you can divide it into periods of war and periods of peace. But when you see a period of peace, that simply means preparation for a new war. It is not peace; it is just on the surface.

The enemies were exhausted in one war, now they are preparing peacefully for the second war. Now the world is in peace, there is no war, but you can't see any peace anywhere. Everywhere there is fear of war looming on the horizon. Any moment it can explode.

Do you call this peace? Peace cannot exist between two wars. It is not the gap between two wars. Any gap between two wars is simply cold war -- simply preparation for the other war and some time is needed, so the fighting stops. There will be peace only when after a war there is no other war. Not between two wars, but after one war, and the next war never comes -- that is peace.

And my understanding about peacefulness is that it is not a question of being peaceful with anybody.

The basic question is being at peace with yourself. Out of that, peace arises for everybody. So whosoever is ready to receive it, whosoever is ready to synchronize with your peace, there is immediately a meeting point, a merging and the fragrance of friendship.

I don't want the peace of the cemetery. Of course, there is a peace in a cemetery, too. All the graves are silent -- no fight, no struggle, no quarrel. I want the peace of a garden in the early morning when birds are singing, flowers are opening, the sun is rising. There is music in it; it is not without sound. There are sounds, but the sounds and the silences together create peace.

I love peace, but it is not a political strategy. The question was political; hence, I immediately replied,

"Never." We are peaceful, the neighbors should be peaceful. And two parties peaceful in themselves cannot create any hostility. There is no question of being peaceful with somebody. The basic question is being peaceful, and we are peaceful. Our peace is not addressed to somebody, is not related to somebody. Our peace is our own experience. Our peace is our life.

We are peaceful -- not to anyone in particular, unaddressed; it is our state, not a relationship. And there is only one living peace possible, that you are peaceful as a state, not as a relationship. The moment you are peaceful in a relationship, it simply means cold war. It simply means for the time being, cease fire.

I don't like that kind of peace at all. Then it is better to fight and be alive and be hot. Those people who think they are neighbors to us have not even the courage and humanity to come and see what kind of people are living here. We are their guests; they are our hosts. There is no question of any neighborhood. And if the host has no acquaintance with the guest, then only a dead kind of peace can exist. I am against it. Then it is better to have a hot war. At least there is some excitement, some life.

So we will fight till either we prove that we are right, or it is proved that we are wrong. In either way, we are available. If we are right, then we are ready to accept our neighbors totally, but they will have to drop their hostility. If they are right, we don't have any hostility at all -- we will simply merge with them.

That I call one existence.

In coexistence, two remain two; they just decide diplomatically that war is unnecessary wastage. And the strange phenomenon is that we have not started it. We came here just to be in this desert, left alone. The nearest neighbor is twenty miles away -- what kind of neighborship? We don't meet. We are so absorbed with our own life and its experiences, its experiments, its adventures, that we are not interested in any kind of stupid relationship with the neighbors. We want to be left alone. That will be enough compassion towards us. Just forget us.

We are not creating any problem for you. But the whole of Oregon is full of fear, hatred, hostility without even bothering to think that a small commune of five thousand people cannot do any harm to such a big majority as the whole state. What harm can we do to them? They can destroy us within seconds. There is no problem, they can make another Hiroshima.

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But the most hilarious part is that we are not frightened and they are frightened. One journalist was asking me, "If you and your commune were the majority in Oregon, and Oregonians were a small minority, would not you be frightened?"

I said, "You are stupid. We are not frightened when we are in the minority, why should we be frightened when we are in a majority?" We would love the minority. We would come to the minority. If they have something to share, some experience, we would be available. And we would be in total support for everything because they are a minority; they are strangers to the place, they need all kinds of support. And if they had just shown a little kindness and a little support, there would have been no quarrel, no problem. We have not raised any problem.

We are simply living here, but I know that although we have not raised any problem, we have become a problem for them psychologically. The problem is our joy, our dance, our song, our way of living, and our turning into an oasis a desert which was there for sale for fifty years. Nobody purchased it because nobody could see any possibility in the land. We purchased it as a challenge: deserts can also be changed, just a little intelligence is needed.

In the beginning they were laughing. Then by and by they became hostile; they saw that what we have said, we have done. And they have never been so happy as our people are. They have never lived life so totally and so freely as we are living. They have missed the train and that's why they are angry. Now, what coexistence? We are in the train and they have missed the train. And what neighborhood? -- we are living and they are dead.

It is good that you don't ask us to live with the graves in a peaceful coexistence. Of course, with graves what else can you do? To us, the people around us are nothing but a big graveyard. And their problem is that they are jealous of our freedom, of our love, of our joy. They could have all this, too, but they were not intelligent enough. What can we do about it?

We feel sorry for them. We are ready to help them. But our help means we will turn them into our color, that's the only way to help them. They want to be happy, but they don't want to come here, to see, because even seeing everybody happy -- and you have never been so happy.... Our laughter is reaching to the neighbors miles away. Our dances, our music is heard all over Oregon and soon will be heard all over America. And that is freaking them out.

Now, it is their birthright to freak out, but we are not going to compromise in any way as far as our laughter is concerned, as far as our rejoicing is concerned, as far as our creativity is concerned, as far as our freedom is concerned, respect for the individual is concerned. We are not going to compromise on any point.

In fact, for the first time the American Constitution is being applied really; otherwise it was just a talk.

And once these small matters are solved, we are going to raise bigger matters. We are going to fight against the Americans for the American Constitution. We are going to expose to the whole world that they don't follow the Constitution, that in fact they have been sabotaging the Constitution.

They are hypocrites. At least the Soviet Union is not a hypocrite -- whatever they are, they accept it. Not only accept it, they declare that that's what they want to be. We may not agree with what they are, but we have to appreciate their sincerity. They don't call themselves a democracy. They could have, but they call it the dictatorship of the proletariat. They could have called it the democracy of the proletariat, there is no problem, but they have chosen a more straightforward word, dictatorship. It is a word condemned all over the world, but they have accepted it because that is what they are doing.

America talks about democracy, but it is simply talk. Underground, everything is dictatorial. We may never have known about it if we had not come here. With us, they are being so cunning, so diplomatic, so dictatorial, so undemocratic that soon they will realize their mistakes. The sooner they realize, the better, because this small commune is enough to expose them to the whole world.

They can't do any harm to us, but we can make it clear to the whole world that this whole American politics is a deception, a hypocrisy. And it is our experience. We are not speaking from the outside, we are speaking from inside. We are going to become the voice of America.

There is no question of any peaceful coexistence. Either they have to change us to their color, or we are going to change them to red. It is simple arithmetic: just prove your truth and we are ready and happily willing to be with you. But you are miserable, how can you absorb our laughter and our rejoicing? You will have to raise your consciousness to the same point where we are. Only then the meeting is possible. To raise your consciousness, you will have to understand ways of raising it. Who is going to teach you?

We could have done everything to help America to raise its consciousness, to become more meditative, 1/08/07

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to become an authentic democracy. And there is their fear -- that this small group of people is dangerous, far more dangerous than all their nuclear weapons. This small group is going to be exposing their misery to them, their utter degradation, their inhumanity, their hypocrisy. Even without saying a word... our very existence and presence here, and they are trembling.

In a secret meeting, the governor and the high officials of the state have decided to keep the army on alert: they have at the most just three hours, and they have to reach Rajneeshpuram. You want us to live peacefully in coexistence with these people? They want to destroy us. They want to bring their army, their national guard. They want to kill us, and you want us to be peaceful and in coexistence with them?

We are not fools. If they can keep their army on alert, we can manage many nations' armies to be on alert, because this is simply inhuman. You are keeping your army alert for people who have nothing? Then you don't know us yet. Just a little bit and you are trembling. The moment you know us completely, you will simply die of shock. We can raise the whole world and its intelligentsia against the American government.

We can raise all the American intellectuals, fair and democratic American people, American justice, judges, Supreme Court -- and your Constitution happens to be on our side.

So be careful. If you want peace, then learn how to be peaceful. We are ready to teach; my whole commune consists of teachers. Any meditator who meditates becomes automatically a teacher, he can teach it to millions of people.

They should approach us. They should invite our people to their universities, to their parliaments, where they can teach meditation. We can be of immense spiritual help to America, and America needs it. And the world needs America to be really democratic, because this is the only hope. Otherwise countries are turning by and by towards dictatorship. They have to turn; there seems to be no other way for them.

America is rich enough that it need not become a dictatorship. It can become really a flowering democracy. Around the world, America is hated. This is strange. A democratic country is hated everywhere, because however clever and cunning you may be, you cannot hide your real face for long. Once in a while, your mask slips and people can see your real face. And your real face is not of democracy.

I said, "Never," because I do not appreciate any compromise. Either this way or that way, my approach is this: if I am right, then you have to accept us; if we are wrong, we are willing to accept you. This is an open challenge.

I challenge the American president. I challenge the American leaders of religion. I challenge the American educationists. Whoever wants to confront us, we are ready. And whatever the question, we are ready to discuss. And if they can prove us wrong on any point, we will appreciate it very much; but they should remember that if we can prove them wrong, then they have to show some guts for a change.

Q: YOU HAVE SAID YOU HAVE NEVER PAID ANY TAXES BECAUSE YOUR WORK IS

CONCERNED WITH OUTCOME, NOT WITH INCOME. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THIS OUTCOME?

A: Just the opposite of income.

Q: MANY TIMES YOU HAVE STRESSED THAT YOU ARE NOT A RAJNEESHEE, OFTEN POINTING

OUT THAT ONE CAN TELL BY YOUR CLOTHES. WHY DO YOU INSIST ON THE DISTINCTION? IS

THERE A GREAT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOU AND THE PEOPLE WHO CALL THEMSELVES

RAJNEESHEES? OR IS IT JUST A MATTER OF CLOTHES?

A: It is just a matter of clothes.

Q: BECAUSE OF THE WAY YOUR HOST LOOKS AFTER YOU -- YOUR BEAUTIFUL CLOTHES, THE JEWELERY, THE CARS -- DO SOME OF YOUR SANNYASINS PUT YOU ON A PEDESTAL AND

FEEL THAT YOU ARE HIGHER THAN THEM? HOW CAN THEY AVOID THIS TRAP WHILE STILL

GIVING YOU ALL THE LOVE AND CARE THAT THEY DO?

A: Nobody is putting me on any higher pedestal. There is no need to avoid it because I am alert enough 1/08/07

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not to sit on any higher pedestal. I sit on such a low chair... I have always avoided any place from where you can fall. So nobody can do that to me, there is no need to avoid it. And nobody is doing it.

When you love someone, you cannot be so nasty. To put someone higher has tremendous implications.

Putting someone higher, you are putting yourself lower; and whoever makes you feel lower or inferior you are never going to forgive. So all the higher ones are hated by the same people who worshipped them. It is not a coincidence that Judas betrayed Jesus. The same happened in Buddha's life. His own cousin -- brother betrayed him and made many attempts to kill him. The same happened in Mahavira's life: his own son-in-law betrayed him. But you cannot betray me.

Why is there this pattern? It is not an exception, it is the rule. Whoever you put higher than yourself, deep down you feel hurt. On the surface you go on adoring the person, but in the unconscious you go on collecting all kinds of antagonism. Because of him you are inferior. How can you forgive a man who makes you feel inferior? And if sometime your inferiority becomes too heavy on you, then a Judas is born.

It is something psychological. Judas is simply a victim. He was the only follower of Jesus who was literate, a little intelligent. All the others were uneducated, illiterate, poor people. Judas was an exception; naturally he felt the wound of being inferior more deeply than anybody else. All the others had lived the life of being always inferior, this was not something new. But Judas was an educated man with aspirations to become higher. And as long as Jesus was alive, he could never become higher than Jesus. Jesus had to be removed from the way. He paid respect to Jesus, he adored Jesus; but deep down there was a wound which was becoming bigger and bigger. And one day it exploded.

Christians have been very unfair to Judas. They have not understood his psychology. Otherwise, it would have given a great insight into many things. After Jesus was crucified, within twenty-four hours Judas committed suicide. He was split. He loved the man, he adored the man, and he hated the man.

His hatred betrayed Jesus and then when he was killed, instead of inferiority a great feeling of guilt arose: "What have I done?" The feeling of guilt was so much that he had to destroy himself That was the only way to get rid of that guilt. What did he gain? Just suicide.

And the same has happened around the world with all the Masters -- their own disciples have betrayed them. And the disciples who betrayed were their best disciples, perhaps hoping to be the successors. But the ego is always in a hurry. It wants things immediately, it cannot wait -- and in fact, how long can one wait?

When Mahavira's son-in-law betrayed him, Mahavira was eighty. His son-in-law was sixty; he had waited enough, and the old man went on living. At sixty, he simply felt that it was never going to happen.

"Perhaps I may die before him -- and he seems to be strong enough, he may outlive me and the others. There is no time. We have to revolt against him."

This may not have been a conscious, deliberate thinking, but some unconscious current; and when he betrayed, he was not alone. That is also significant. Five hundred other sannyasins of Mahavira also went with him. That means they were also feeling the same thing. Just the other day they were touching his feet and today they have become enemies. Nothing has happened to create this enmity; from where this enmity has suddenly risen to the surface? It has not come from the outside because Mahavira has not done anything to provoke it.

But Mahavira, Jesus or Buddha are also in a way responsible for it. They should have known the very day they accepted the adoration that this was going to happen. I don't accept any adoration; hence, there is no possibility to have any antagonism about me. I know the psychology of adoration far better than Jesus and Buddha and Mahavira. There is always a hurt heart behind it, because the other person is continuously feeling inferior. To adore you he has to become lower. But if you deny adoration, you are destroying his inferiority.

I can dance with you. You cannot conceive Gautam Buddha dancing with you -- impossible -- even in your imagination you cannot conceive of Gautam Buddha dancing with you. He is superhuman, you are ordinary mortals. My whole effort is to destroy your inferiority, to give you dignity, to give you self-respect.

And because I give you dignity and self-respect, that's why you love me. Your love is not adoration. It is natural. Adoration is something unnatural, it is an ego game.

Your love towards me is a totally different phenomenon. It has never happened around a Master because no Master has been capable of putting himself with his followers as a friend, calling his followers his fellow travelers. They were all high up and their whole work was condemning you, pointing out what is wrong with you. Their whole life they condemned people, reduced them lower and lower, and these people were giving them adoration. That adoration was superficial.

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totally. There is nothing wrong; there is nothing like sin. There are mistakes, which are human. I commit mistakes, perhaps more than you commit, because that is the only way to learn, to grow. There is no other way for learning. That's why you see me contradicting myself a thousand times. I have no fear of contradictions. All your great leaders of religions, politics, society, culture -- whatever their field -- all your leaders have pretended that they are infallible. And it is so clear that nobody is infallible.

Mahavira and Buddha were both contemporaries, both great Masters of thousands of people, and both in the same state, Bihar, in India. Many times they stayed in the same city, and one time in the same caravanserai. Half was occupied by Mahavira and his followers, and half by Buddha and his followers. But both were criticizing each other: Buddha criticized that Mahavira was not infallible. Mahavira and his followers believed that he was omniscient, all-knowing, past, present, future -- all the qualities of God.

Jainism and Buddhism both do not believe in God, so all the qualities have to be put somewhere else because people need them. So Mahavira is exactly what God is to other religions, the father figure; if he commits mistakes, then certainly he will lose his following. And Buddha was continuously criticizing him.

Buddha was younger than Mahavira, and naturally, the younger generation is critical of the older generation. Mahavira was already established. Buddha was trying to find converts; he had to criticize those who were established, but he forgot that in his own turn he started doing the same. Mahavira was gone and Buddha started doing the same, allowing his people to believe in his infallibility.

He was criticizing that if Mahavira knows everything -- even the future, eternal future is known to him

-- then why was he standing before a house begging one day when there was no one in the house? What kind of omniscience is this? He does not know even a small thing -- that the house is empty, the people who used to live there have gone on a religious pilgrimage. Last time when Mahavira was in the place they were there, but this time they were not. And he was standing before the house with his begging bowl and the neighbors informed him that there was nobody in the house... his followers had gone for a religious pilgrimage.

Now Buddha is making a laughingstock of Mahavira. He said that once in the early morning when it was still dark it happened that Mahavira walked on the tail of a dog who was sleeping. When the dog jumped up and barked, then he came to know there was a dog. And this man thinks he is omniscient? He knows all and he cannot know about the dog?

But to me, the same happened with Buddha. They made a small change -- they had to make a little difference, otherwise people would say, "This is what you have been criticizing in Mahavira." You can see the strategy. Buddha said, "I am omniscient, but only when I want to be; omnipotent, but only when I want to be; omnipresent, only when I want to be. And I have dropped wanting. I have dropped desiring." But he was putting himself on the same pedestal.

I walk simply amongst you. Many of you may be in many ways more talented than me. Naturally, if my body is sick, then my doctor knows more than I know. I don't interfere with my doctor. I am really a good patient; you can ask Devaraj, you can ask Shunyo. When something is wrong with my teeth -- you can ask my dental surgeon -- I am quite patient.

In fact he must be wondering... because nobody loves the dentist's chair, but I love it. I really enjoy it. I find a small excuse and I immediately tell my dentist to make arrangements, I am coming. Just a slight excuse, it does not need any dentistry -- but I love the chair. And I never interfere in whatever they are doing; messing with my teeth or whatever they are doing I allow them to do. That is their work and their responsibility, and I don't know anything about it so I simply keep out of it.

There are people amongst you who are better in many ways. There is no question of adoring me; it is more than enough that you love me with a love which arises in you for no reason at all, just for the experience that happens to you in close proximity with me. And I am absolutely certain that no disciple of mine can have any grudge against me, because I respect you so much. Not for a single moment have I put myself above you.

In fact, many times I think that I don't deserve that much love. Existence is simply much too kind towards me. I am simply thankful and grateful to all of you. So there is no question of stopping my people; my very way of working is such that you cannot put me on a pedestal. From the very roots cut the possibilities. If I see you doing it, I am going to come to the disco every day.

I know a little bit of playing cards, too; and drinking is vegetarian, so there is no problem. Once in a while I can get drunk and you will not even see the difference, because ordinarily I am also the same. I cannot walk in a straight line, so whether I am drunk or not, it is very difficult to make the distinction.

Perhaps I am already drunk. Ask Avirbhava... she knows a little bit.

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Okay.

Q: THERE ARE MANY DEPROGRAMMERS IN AMERICA WHO DEPROGRAM PEOPLE WHO

HAVE LEFT CULTS. WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF ONE OF THESE DEPROGRAMMERS KIDNAPPED A RAJNEESHEE AND TRIED TO DEPROGRAM HIM?

A: The Rajneeshee will deprogram him. There is no fear about it because we are not a cult and we don't have any program. Our whole work is deprogramming.

It will be good. Get abducted and deprogram the deprogrammer. Soon they will become afraid. The moment they see the red color, they will say, "These people are not... they are already deprogrammed. And to talk with them -- they confuse you and they deprogram you."

Nobody can do that. Our whole religion is basically deprogramming. Those deprogrammers know just a little technique. My sannyasins are living it. It is not just knowledge, an expertise, a degree that they have got from a university; it is their very life. They are living a life without any program, without any plan, spontaneously.

Any deprogrammer will be in immediate difficulty with my sannyasins. He himself will feel that his expertise is of no use, that he himself needs to be deprogrammed. His clarity is not enough. My people's clarity is not an expertise, that is the difference. You are not simply learning a course in a school, you are living life in a commune.

Your whole being is being transformed, it is not just a small part of your mind that collects information.

The deprogrammer has information, but you are passing through a transformation. It will be very good. In fact, once in a while we should send our sannyasins to deprogrammers, just to make them afraid. Just to make them aware that expertise is nothing, knowledge is nothing. There is no fear about that.

Q: DID YOU CHOOSE TO COME AT THIS TIME IN HISTORY, EVEN THOUGH YOU SAY THAT

YOU HAVE COME AT THE WRONG TIME? IS THERE SOMETHING ABOUT THIS TIME THAT MAKES

IT THE 'RIGHT' WRONG TIME FOR YOU?

A: No, I have not chosen anything. Whenever and wherever I had been, it would have been both a wrong time and a right time. It will be a little difficult to understand wrong, because wherever, whenever, in whatever century I would have been, I would have had to face the same hostility, the same antagonism, the same anger of the masses. That way it would be the wrong time.

But it depends on me to change the wrong time into the right time. The hostility of the people, the anger of the people, the enmity of the people are symbolic. I am unable to do anything only if people remain absolutely inattentive towards me. If they can ignore me, then I cannot do anything. That will be simply the wrong time; then it cannot be changed into the right time.

But if people are angry, they have given the indication that they are already emotionally attracted towards me. Their anger is because of their fear. They are angry because they are afraid: "This man is dangerous. Coming close to him, perhaps you will not have any way to escape." They are creating the hostility and anger and enmity just to protect themselves.

But when somebody has started protecting himself, that simply means he is already influenced. He already smells the truth, and he is not capable of facing it. That's why he is creating walls of hostility -- so he does not need to face it. But he has already become interested in me, he has already shown some kind of emotions towards me. It does not matter that the emotions of anger and hate and hostility are not favorable.

It is very simple to change them. Once a person is emotionally attracted towards me, his hate can be changed into love very easily, because hate and love are not very different things, just two sides of the same coin.

The only person who is difficult to change is one who has no emotional idea about you -- neither of love nor of hate -- who simply passes by your side as if you are not there. But it is difficult as far as I am concerned. It is difficult to ignore me. I will not allow anybody to ignore me. They will have to take notice, and they will have to take a certain stand, for or against. That is the beginning of my work.

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with me. Their very hatred is symbolic.

It is symbolic that they cannot ignore me. It is symbolic because their hate simply shows that they are afraid that if they don't hate, they will fall in love. But how long they can do this to themselves? Hate is not a very good space. They are not harming me, they are poisoning themselves. How long can they remain in this poisoning state? Seeing others with me dancing, singing joyously, living a life in its intensity and totality, they are burning with hate and creating poison in themselves.

What is the point? Just a little intelligence is enough to see that I am not harmed by your hate. You are harming yourself Those who love me are immensely helped by their love.

Once this becomes clear to people, they start moving from one camp to another. It takes just a little patience.

I have not chosen this time to be here, because I don't choose anything. I happen to be here, but it is true that it is one of the most critical times in the history of man. Perhaps never before has man come to such a point where something of an ultimate decision has to be made, a decision whether life is to continue on the earth or not. Single individuals have committed suicide; for the first time, the whole of humanity is going to commit suicide totally -- and not only humanity, but all living animals, trees, everything that has life. It is a tremendous decision, and I don't think that people will want to destroy all life.

That is where we can make a space for transformation. If they don't want to die, if they don't want life to disappear, then the only way is that mankind has to change its ways, its lifestyle, its thinking patterns, because these are the things -- the thinking patterns, the ideologies, the religions -- which have brought man to this point.

The point is not unconnected with your history; it is the climax of your history. If you want this point never to happen again, then you have to start living in a totally different way. Otherwise, history repeats itself. You will have to begin from scratch -- a new history and a new man.

That's why I say it is a very wrong time -- moments of global suicide -- but it is a very right time also because man could prefer to be transformed rather than to die. They have written against me on the walls:

"It is better to be dead than to be red" -- but they have not thought about it. If it comes really to choose to be dead or to be red, I don't think even Oregonian idiots will choose to be dead.

If it comes really to a decision, they will say, "Okay, so we will die too. Red is at least alive! Dead we don't want to be." Nobody wants to be dead.

So the time is good because the choice is such that we cannot be defeated, we can only be victorious.

We just have to put the alternative correctly. Make the alternative as loud as possible. Shout it from every rooftop that there is an alternative which can avoid this catastrophe and which can avoid any other catastrophe in the future. The very possibility of such a thing can simply be dropped if man changes his ways of thinking. And when death confronts you, just to think about it is one thing; but when death is directly in front of you, you may choose anything rather than to die.

It happened to one of my friends when I was a student in the university. I had friends very rarely because my interests were such that I would not go to the movies, I would not go to concerts, I would not go to parties. My interest was only one -- the library of the university. My only companions were books and nothing else. My teachers, my friends all thought, "He is a bookworm, he has no human heart."

But this one young man was very friendly towards me. The reason was that he was in love with a girl who lived in front of my house. The girl was a Bengali, a very beautiful girl. She used to come to my family, to my house, and once in a while she used to sit in my study and discuss things. She was a very intellectual type. It was the girl who brought him to be my friend, but she was not interested in him at all.

And he was becoming more and more mad after her, so mad that he started learning Bengali, speaking Bengali, wearing Bengali clothes. He went to Calcutta for six months to learn to speak exactly the way Bengalis speak.

Bengali is a very sweet language. Each word is very rounded with no corners. Even if two persons are fighting, it will seem as if they are in a friendly conversation, the language is so sweet and low. It is just the opposite in Marathi: if two persons are in conversation, it will seem that a fight is going to start any moment. The language is very primitive, rude. The sounds are not musical, care has not been taken that the sounds of the words should be musical, too. A real language will not think only of meaning, it will also think of music, so that even a person who does not understand the language can at least experience the music of it.

He became a perfect Bengali -- but the more he pursued the girl, the more she became adamant. She told me, "Whatever happens, I am not going to have any relationship with this man. He seems to be crazy, 1/08/07

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utterly mad. I want a sane man to live with, but he is not sane. Now he is walking in Bengali dress, always keeping an umbrella... because Bengalis always keep an umbrella. Now that looks odd. Even in the university he is with his umbrella and everybody is laughing...."

He started speaking even his own mother tongue, Hindi, the way Bengalis speak Hindi. They distort it; the same word in both the languages will be pronounced differently. For example, the name of the wife of one of my brothers was Rama, and whenever the Bengali family came to meet our family, they always called her Roma. Rama is straight -- Hindi is a simple and straight language -- but it becomes very rounded, Roma. It does not sound at all like Rama. It seems perhaps it is connected with the city Rome, Roma.

I told him, "Everybody is laughing at you. Stop this nuisance. At least you should speak Hindi. You look like an idiot. If a Bengali speaks Hindi in a Bengali tone, it is understandable; but your mother tongue is Hindi." But there was no way. He was determined to be Bengali in every possible way. He even ate Bengali food.

His father was a doctor. He told me, "I have only one son and that too insane. Now that idiot has started bringing fish into the house because, he says, Bengalis eat fish and rice" -- that is their main diet, rice and fish. And the father said, "The fish.... I never in my life imagined that in my house my own son -- and he is my only son, my wife is dead. I have given him the love of the mother, of the father, and everything -- and he turned out to be an idiot. Now I can smell the fish... even when he leaves the room I can smell it. Because he is such an idiot: if Bengalis are eating fish once a day, then he will be eating at least twice a day to be absolutely a Bengali."

But finally the girl got so fed up that she called him to her house, and before her father she said, "You tell this young man that I don't want to have any relationship, any friendship with him. I don't want even to be aware that we know each other. Marriage is out of the question." The father said, "It is your marriage. If you don't want it, you could have told him." She said, "No, it has to be absolutely decided. Otherwise, he will start pestering you. You don't know him; he has been pestering me, and because of him I have also become a laughingstock in the whole university."

He did his last act. He went home, he closed the door, and announced from inside the room, "I am going to kill myself. Nobody should try to open the doors or do anything, otherwise I will immediately shoot myself." His father used to have a gun, he was a hunter. So the gun was inside and everybody was afraid.

They persuaded, they said everything, but he said, "No. Unless that girl comes and says that she is going to marry me... otherwise there is no way. I am going to finish myself. I cannot imagine myself without her."

The father went to the girl's father. He said, "I can understand that this is simply forcing you, violent, but you should see my situation. He is my only son. All that I have done and earned and collected is for him, and now he is sitting with a gun and he says that unless the girl comes and says that she is going to marry him...."

The girl's father said, "I can understand your difficulty. I can call the girl -- I have no objection. In fact, I like your boy, there is nothing wrong in it. He has learned Bengali and he talks with me and even I cannot detect that he is not a Bengali. He has a certain strength, a certain individuality. I have no objection. But my girl -- without her I cannot say yes. If she is willing, you can take her."

They both explained to her that this was the situation. She said, "That is up to him. It is my life. I cannot live with that madman. This is madness, and if he can force me to marry him, he can force me to do anything. Any day he can sit with the gun: 'Do this, otherwise I am going to kill myself.' I am not going to get into such a situation. No, if he wants to kill himself, it is his business. What have I to do with it?"

Then the father remembered me -- because I was his only friend, and just opposite his house -- so he came to see me. I said, "Don't be worried, I am coming. And you simply drop the idea... there is no problem." I went there and I told him, "If you want to die, then why are you making such a fuss? Do you really want to die?" He said, "Yes!" Then I said, "Please come out. I have brought the car. You come with me, and we will go home. This is a full moon night and we will go to the marble rocks, which is the best place in the world to die. You jump and I say goodbye, and I will return. This is a beautiful night and you cannot find a better place."

He said, "This is something! I am dying and you are thinking of the place and the beauty and the full moon." But I said, "Don't make so much fuss. I am showing you the best way. If you cannot live beautifully, at least you can die beautifully. And who knows... because we will be sleeping and we will go in the middle of night, and you will be in my home, perhaps the girl will see you -- and I will inform her that this is the procedure how we are going to dispose of you completely -- and perhaps she may change her mind." He said, "That seems to be logical, so I am coming."

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He came with me. I informed the girl and the family, and I told them, "You don't be worried." I told him that the best time would be between two and four in the night. "You are going to die, I am still going to live, so why waste the whole night? We will go at four o'clock. You take the jump and I can see you off and have a good morning bath back home." He looked at me with suspicion. He said, "I used to think you were my friend." I said, "That's what I am doing -- a friend in need is a friend indeed. You want to die, I am trying to make it as beautiful as possible. What else do you want? Anything else... you just say."

He said, "I am not saying that. All the people -- the neighbors, my father's friends, and others-came and they all persuaded me not to kill myself: 'Wait. You can find a better woman, or perhaps she may change her mind. Don't be in a hurry. This is stupid. If this girl does not want... the world is full of so many beautiful girls, we will find a better girl for you.' They all tried that I should not die. You are the only person who is making every arrangement for my death."

I said, "This is my approach: if I am your friend, I will do whatever you feel like doing. If you want to die, I will not interfere in your freedom. I will help as far as I can. So we will go to sleep and we will put the alarm for four o'clock."

And at four o'clock when the alarm went off, I reached to the clock and his hand was already putting it off. I said, "What are you doing? You are putting the alarm off." He said, "Yes, I am putting the alarm off, and I don't want to die. The whole night I could not sleep -- and you are so insistent. I used to think that I am crazy; it seems you are crazy. A friend? -- you took the car to the garage, filled the whole tank, checked the tires that nothing goes wrong. You seem to be strange." I said, 'But according to the decision... now it is four o'clock. I don't want to be caught by the police, so you just get up and we go. And we have to finish the whole thing before the sun rises and anybody comes to know. I have to be out of the place and far away, because I don't want to be caught. I have still to live."

He said, "You forgive me, I don't want to die at all." I said, "What changed your mind?" He said,

"Changed my mind? There are millions of women I can find." I said, "But you were going to die. What happened to that?" He said, "You understand perfectly well. And you knew that this was going to happen, because when death is really actually in front of you, then one is willing to do anything. I don't want to die, and I will forget that girl forever."

And he got married the same year. Now he has five, six children. The last time I saw him, in 1970, I asked him how things were going. He said, "Perhaps if I had followed your idea and died, that would have been far better. This life is so ugly. I have got a woman who is continuously a pain in the neck; half-a-dozen children -- no peace, no silence. My father is dead, so I have to take care of all his properties and lands, and I am much too burdened. And I think many times of that night. Perhaps you were right." I said, "I am still ready, although I don't live here. I will have to borrow somebody's car, and.... But a friend in need is a friend indeed. I will do it!"

He said, "You are something. I have six children to look after!" As death again became a reality, and seeing that I was absolutely serious and I would arrange everything, he said, "No, no need to arrange." And I said, "Then why are you saying that you are miserable, and the wife...?" He said, "No, I will not talk to you again. You forgive me again. That time you forgave me; once more.... I am perfectly happy. I don't want to die."

Death is something that you may enjoy the idea of. You may sometimes enjoy the idea of committing suicide. everybody -- almost everybody -- once in a while enjoys the idea. But that is only an idea. If it actually becomes a reality, you will change your mind immediately.

For the first time death has become a reality for the whole of humanity, so it is a wrong time in that sense. It is a very critical, tragic phase; but because death has become so real, so close, so tangible, man may be persuaded to change his ways, his thinking, his ideologies; to drop his nations and religions if he wants to survive.

That's why I say it is a right time. We can put the alternative: Either be ready for global suicide, or be ready for global transformation. And I don't think anybody is going to choose death. The alternative just has to be made clear.

And that is going to be the effort of all the sannyasins around the world: make the alternative clear to everybody that sannyas is not just a question of personal whim, it is a question of saving the whole of humanity and life on this beautiful earth.

Are there more questions?

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Q: NO MORE QUESTIONS, BHAGWAN, THANK YOU.

A: Good.

The Last Testament, Vol 2

Chapter #19

Chapter title: Organism, Not Organization

8 September 1985 pm in Jesus Grove

Archive code: 8509085

ShortTitle: LAST219

Audio:

Yes

Video:

Yes

Length: 113 mins

[NOTE: This discourse is published in the book: The Last Testament, Volume 1, as Chapter 10.]

Ma Prem Isabel

RAJNEESHPURAM

OREGON

QUESTION: BHAGWAN, DO YOU SEE ANY POSSIBILITY THAT THE PEOPLE WHO CAN REALLY

CHANGE THE COURSE OF EVENTS IN THE WORLD TODAY WILL EVER LISTEN TO WHAT YOU'RE

SAYING, UNDERSTAND IT, AND TRY TO IMPLEMENT IT?

ANSWER: They will have to. There is no other alternative. It is a very strange situation: if they don't choose me, if they don't choose the transformation I am talking about, then they are choosing death for all humanity and all life. It is not a question of choosing between two ideologies. It is not a question of choosing between my philosophy and Karl Marx's philosophy or Bertrand Russell's philosophy. It is not a philosophical question. The question is existential.

On the other side, if man decides not to listen to me, not to change, then he decides for committing suicide. That's why I say they will have to listen, they will have to understand, and they will have to go through the transformation, because nobody is ready to choose an ultimate death for all life.

If it was a question of choosing between two ideologies, it is just intellectual gymnastics. That's why they are so much afraid of me. Slowly, slowly, the intelligent people around the world are becoming aware that it is necessary to do something so that man is saved, or be ready to die. And what I am proposing is the only alternative; no other alternative is proposed anywhere. There is no other possibility.

Man has looked into all the alternatives, has exhausted all the possibilities, and has tried to remain just the way he is, only changing ideologies, religions, scriptures, but he himself remains the same. What is the difficulty? You choose the holy Koran instead of the Holy Bible; you are the same person, only the book has changed. The question was not the change of the book, the question was the change of your total being.

They have done everything up to now that was possible.

I am not giving you any ideology, not another holy book. I am giving you a simple alternative: you have to drop your whole past -- your hatred, your distinctions of color and nation, your fights amongst religions, political ideologies -- you have to drop it in toto. There is no question of choosing something from the past; 1/08/07

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you have to drop it completely. You have to become discontinuous with the past, and that discontinuity with the past will bring the transformation. You have not to do anything else.

Just as the snake slips out of his old skin, leaving it aside completely -- he does not even look back --

man has to slip out of his past, not even looking back. It is difficult, but not as difficult as death for all of life. The past is heavy, the past is deep rooted, but life and desire to live is far stronger.

So on the one hand is the whole range of many alternatives, but all life-denying. If you choose them, then you are choosing death.

I am the only person here who is life-affirmative, who does not want to reject anything from life, who accepts life as it is, with no grudge, no complaint, with no desire that it should have been better -- who relishes it as it is. And there are no other life-affirmative ideologies around. So on the one hand there are many ideologies which are life-denying, life-negative. All those ideologies have led man to this point, where he is facing a total death of the planet.

I am against all those ideologies for the simple reason that I affirm life and I say that if you go deeper into your desire for life, you will find the eternal source of life. And if you choose life instead of death, then you will have to change all your other ideologies -- political, social, religious -- because they are all life-denying. They are complementary to each other.

Choosing me you have to drop your whole past; that is the fear. But there is no other way. It has never happened before that you had to choose a certain way of life or total destruction of all life from the planet.

That's why I emphasize that they will have to listen. They will try not to listen, but the situation is such that ultimately they have to listen to me, and they have to understand it also. In fact they will listen only when they are ready to understand. And when they are ready to understand they know perfectly well that it is not a question of changing your idea, it is a question of changing your whole life, its attitudes, approaches, everything. But they will have to, because on the other side, if they don't choose what I am saying, then they have to choose a global suicide.

So in a way, the nuclear weapons, diseases like AIDS, are all helping me. They will force humanity to understand me, otherwise it was not possible for them to listen to me or to understand or to transform. But the alternative is such that there is no way out. I am the only way out of this mess that their religions and their political philosophies have created in the world.

Q: BHAGWAN, A JOURNALIST ASKED YOU RECENTLY ABOUT YOUR WARNING THAT ONCE A RELIGION BECOMES ORGANIZED, VIOLENCE ENTERS INTO IT. YOU SAID THAT THAT WAS

ABSOLUTELY TRUE AND THAT THE EVIDENCE WAS THE ORGANIZATION AND THE GUNS

AROUND YOU. YOU SAID THAT YOU WERE FIGHTING EVEN WITH RAJNEESHEES TO STOP

INSTITUTIONALIZATION. PLEASE COMMENT.

A: I am fighting against any kind of institutionalization, organization. I want a totally different thing. I call it organism, not organization.

Organization is something outward; organism is something inward. Organization has no center, it is only periphery. A machine is organized. You put different parts together in a certain order, but the machine has no soul, no center. It functions, it works, but there is nobody inside it. A machine is an organization of parts assembled in a certain order to function in a certain way.

All the organizations up to now have done that: they changed human beings into mechanical parts, cogs in the wheel. They destroyed individuality because individuality was troublesome. They destroyed intelligence, they destroyed all kinds of disobedience, so that you may be able to become a perfect part in the machine. And they respected those who became perfect parts in the machine, who simply moved according to the mechanism, who had no will of their own, no intelligence of their own, no individuality of their own. These are the people who are given Nobel prizes, gold medals....

An organism is something like your body. It functions together, but each organ of your body has its own individuality, and there is nobody who is ruling over it. It is not a part that you can replace.

Just the other day there was a question, "If brains can be transplanted, and we can transplant Albert Einstein's brain into somebody else's head, what will happen to Albert Einstein's soul?"

Nothing will happen to Albert Einstein's soul because the brain is not the soul, and nothing will happen to the mind because the mind only needs life energy -- it doesn't matter from where it comes, from whom it comes. It is a machine. To whomsoever -- even in an idiot's head -- if you change it and put in Albert 1/08/07

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Einstein's mind, the idiot will function like Albert Einstein. Not that the soul has changed, but now he has all the information, the brain, the whole accumulation of Albert Einstein's life, research, experiments. They are all part of the memory in the brain. They are like a computer.

And this man's life energy was being wasted by an idiotic mind because the idiotic mind could not do anything with life's energy. Life energy is the same: just you give it a right mechanism and it starts functioning. The idiot will function exactly as Albert Einstein.

He may not have known the language, the mathematics, the physics, anything before, but now he will speak the language of Albert Einstein, his mathematical flights, his tremendous insight into physics, just as easily as Albert Einstein -- perhaps more easily, because Albert Einstein was exhausted, spent and this is absolutely fresh. The idiot has never bothered to think, never bothered to inquire. His whole energy is fresh, young, available, unused. He may function better than Albert Einstein.

Organism functions in a unity, without anybody forcing the unity. And there is an innermost core -- the soul -- which simply supplies the energy to the whole.

I am against organization. It has a hierarchy, it moves from the lowest to the highest in a vertical line.

Organism is a circle, not a vertical line; no hierarchy, but a circle. Nobody is higher than anybody else. And the circle has a center and that center is the source of energy for all, for all the organs which make the circle.

Every living thing is an organism. Every dead thing is an organization. I would like my people to be an organism. And they are turning, slowly, slowly. It is natural, because they have come from a world...

thousands of years of conditioning they have carried with them. It takes time for them to drop it, but it is dropping.

There was one question, two, three days before. The questioner was asking me, "Before you started speaking, there was continuous hammering from the higher-ups in the commune to be positive, to be this, to be that. Since you started speaking, those hammerings have stopped. Nobody is telling us to be positive, but strangely enough, everybody is more positive than he was ever before, more loving, more in tune."

The difference is that I am not higher up, I am not in a vertical line from where I order you. I am amongst you, just in the middle, at the very center of the commune. I need not order. I can just be there and that will be enough for everybody else to function positively. They can take the energy, they can take the insight.

Of course they are not yet capable of understanding it in silence, but words they have become capable of understanding. Soon they will be capable of understanding the wordless presence too.

So, since I started speaking, they suddenly became a totally different group. They were an organization because I was silent, and the people who were responsible for running the commune had no other way than to say to you, "Do this. Don't do that." They cannot be condemned for that; there was no other way. They are just people like you.

With me things are different.

The moment I started speaking again, came back into the center, became the center of your existence --

of your thinking, of your being, of your dancing, of everything-naturally, you started functioning the way you should function. There is no need to say it. You love me and out of that love arises your action. How can it be negative?

I love you. You know it, you feel it -- how can you act in any negative way? Then to be positive needs no effort. You simply are positive and nobody has told you.

So when I say I am against organization, my meaning is that humanity has lived in the form of organization -- the hierarchy, the bureaucracy -- and all those efforts have led nowhere except into more and more misery.

I am giving an alternative for everything. Organization has to be replaced by an organism. The commune has to be an organism. I am working on that way and is happening. It will take a little time for people to start feeling themselves that something strange is happening: they are functioning in tune, they are feeling responsible. Nobody is holding them responsible, nobody will condemn them for not being responsible, but suddenly they feel that's how life is more joyful, that's how life is more loving, that's how all misery, sadness, darkness, disappears.

And that's how you become respectable, not in others' eyes, but even in your own eyes. A tremendous self-respect arises, and you are not higher and nobody is lower than you. Your self-respect makes it possible for you to respect everyone as he is.

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organization. An organization will need violence or will be afraid of violence from outside. But I am still here and I would like the organization to completely disappear, not only from this place, but from everywhere in the world. Organization is not needed, just small communes which can function as an organic whole. And if people are joyous, if they feel life as a blessing, they will not commit violence because that is simply a disturbance of their own joy and of the joy of the other person.

But if only your commune becomes an organism and you are surrounded by organizations around you, then certainly you will need weapons, not for violence, but simply for self-defense.

Organizations are always trying to invade, trying to conquer -- conquer each and every thing. Even a man as intelligent as Bertrand Russell wrote a book, CONQUEST OF NATURE. Now that is ugly. We are part of nature, how can we conquer nature? That is creating a split. It is like one of my hands becomes the conqueror of my whole being. That is simply not possible, but because nature is silent and non-argumentative, you can go on saying anything. What have you conquered in nature?

All that you have done is you have learned the laws of nature, and you are following the laws of nature.

Hence you have become more productive, more creative, more powerful. But this is not conquest of nature; this is simply an inquiry -- and nature is compassionate enough that it goes on opening its secrets to you.

And you are such ungrateful creatures that on the one hand nature is opening its secrets to you, and on the other hand you are declaring that you have conquered nature. But that is the language of the organizational man: violence, conquest, victory.

But if a commune is there, an organism surrounded by organizations, there is every possibility those organizations will try to invade you, conquer you, destroy you, be violent with you.

To me, to do violence is something ugly; but to allow violence to be done to you is also ugly. In both cases you are partners. Violence can be done only with two partners. Either you can be the doer or you can be the receiver.

I do not teach any kind of non-violence, like Mahatma Gandhi, which failed tremendously. And it is such a strange world that nobody looks at Mahatma Gandhi and the failure of his non-violence, utter failure.

His revolution in 1942 died within nine days, and with no effect.

The revolution of a country like India against the British kingdom simply withers away in nine days.

Just a few people are thrown into jail and it is finished. And without any effect, because in 1942 India did not become independent.

The fact is that after 1942, Gandhi and his close colleagues had all lost hope that in their own life India could become independent, because their greatest effort had just withered away in nine days, and they had been preparing for fifty years. Now to have another revolution... they wouldn't be alive, they were all getting old. But in 1947, five years after the revolution....

In any revolution, things happen immediately. It is not that in 1917 the communist revolution happens and the czar goes on ruling five years and then he says, "Okay. You win. Your revolution has succeeded." If a revolution succeeds then the slavery is finished.

But 1942 did not bring any victory, any freedom to India. In fact it brought a tremendous hopelessness, despair, and almost a certainty that it was impossible to be free.

In '47 Britain gave India freedom not because of Gandhi and his non-violent revolution; it gave India freedom because India became a burden.

You want to rule people if you can exploit them. Britain had exploited for three hundred years everything that was valuable; everything that Britain wanted was transferred to Britain. They sucked all the blood from India. And now there were four hundred million people, hungry, starving. Now it was the responsibility of the government to feed these people, to take care of these people, and that would have been very economically heavy on Britain.

When you have sucked the blood of the country and there are only bones, it is better to make them free.

Then whatsoever they go through -- suffering, poverty, starvation -- it is their responsibility.

In fact, Lord Mountbatten was sent to India with orders that before 1948 he somehow had to manage to withdraw from India. But when he went to India and saw the situation he informed the British government,

"It may be too late. And escaping in a situation when India is starving will expose your whole policy to the world, that this is not giving freedom, this is simply being irresponsible. While India could give you so much, you cannot even manage enough food for them."

Mountbatten said, "In '47 we will be finished. Don't wait for '48. One year can prove dangerous. The earlier the better."

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trained India how to rule, how to manage. It should have transferred Mohammedans to Pakistan, Hindus to India under military control -- because it was an absolute certainty that if India and Pakistan were made free and the people had not been transferred, then there was going to be immense violence. And that violence happened.

More than one million people died as independence was declared, because to transfer millions of people from India to Pakistan and from Pakistan to India was not an easy job. Who was going to do it?

And when people have no time, and when they are leaving their country and moving to another country, who is going to allow them to take all their money? Of course, they cannot take their houses, their lands, they cannot sell them. Who is going to purchase them? -- because everybody knows they have to leave them without any question. "They are ours." And money, women -- anybody they wanted -- they would not allow to go. Women were transferred into Mohammedanism.

The people who came to India from Pakistan were utterly desolated. They had lost all their life's earnings, their houses, their friends. They had lost their families. And the same was the situation in India with Mohammedans, on a little smaller scale, because Hindus are not so violent. Just because they were vegetarians, to kill was an impossibility for them. But on a lesser scale it happened. Thousands of Mohammedans were killed.

And Mountbatten with his government slipped out of the country. The whole responsibility fell on India's and Pakistan's governments. They were unable to manage -- how you can manage a country within a day?

On the fifteenth of August the country became free, and on the fifteenth of August, thousands of people were being killed, thousands of houses were on fire. The government had not even figured out whose department belonged to whom, they had not been yet able to divide the cabinets, the ministers, who was the chief of the army and who was the person responsible for orders. Immediately they had to face such great violence. And after that they have been continuously going down and down.

I am not in favor of the philosophy of Gandhian non-violence. I love non-violence, but that does not mean that I will allow my people to be killed. At least they should die with dignity; they should not be just killed like dumb animals.

So while the whole world remains organizational, the commune will be an organism inside, but for the outside world it will certainly maintain a tough face. We are not going to harm anybody on our own, but we are not going to allow anybody to harm us either. And that is natural to every organism. What I am saying is not philosophy.

Your body will protect itself in any case. If the house is on fire, everybody will start getting out of the house as quickly as possible. It is natural. Life wants to save itself, and there is nothing wrong in.

The very quality of people with weapons in their hands changes the moment they are not serving an organization, but are part of an organism. That is very difficult for people to understand. That's why I did not go into detail on that day; it would have been absolutely impossible for them. For them a gun is a gun.

To them it does not matter who is holding it. To me it matters much... more important than the gun.

If Gautam Buddha is holding the gun, the quality of the gun is no more the same as when Adolf Hitler is holding the same gun. With Gautam Buddha, the gun is not going to be used to harm anybody, but in the hands of Adolf Hitler it is certainly going to be used to harm people, kill people. The gun is neutral. The gun has no values of its own. The values come from the person who holds it.

With my sannyasins holding guns, I have not for a single moment felt that they can do any harm to anybody. But to the outside people, it is certainly difficult.

Just a few days ago, one Swedish magazine has published a big article against me, the commune, and has almost tried to prove that this is a military organization. And in the editorial note it says that nothing like this has been seen since Adolf Hitler. And all that they have done -- they have taken pictures of sannyasins holding guns, enlarged those pictures, filled the whole article with guns -- looking at the magazine one would think that there must be thousands of soldiers marching with guns.

The journalist was here but he did not ask for an interview. Now I call this immensely cowardly. He just took photographs and only of what he wanted: people holding guns -- that is his main theme -- and just spread them, double page spreads of guns, and small notes like, "This is the most dangerous place that is growing here. Sooner or later it will become a problem to the whole world."

And I was giving interviews to journalists. He was here, he could have asked, he should have asked for an interview. Before he published anything, he should have inquired of me, but in fact he completely avoided inquiring of anybody. He simply had come with a prejudice, and with that prejudice he took the 1/08/07

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pictures... and he has made a full article.

Now anybody reading that article cannot imagine that all this is false. And in a way it is true, because those pictures are not wrong, just the presentation is cunning. The presentation is prejudicial.

This commune and other communes are not going to be organizations. They are going to be almost like one body. But every organism naturally, instinctively faces any danger.

Our communes will face any danger; we will find ways and means to face it. But we cannot allow anybody to do harm without any response to it, because that means you are helping the invader, you are helping the violent man, you are helping violence. You have become part of the violence and its games.

We are not going to become part of violence and its games. If we can prevent through weapons, we will prevent through weapons. If we see that we are a small commune and weapons cannot prevent it, then we will prevent with our open chests, singing and dancing. We will leave those people guilty for their whole lives that they killed innocent, dancing people who were not doing any harm to anybody. If we can protect life, we will protect it. If we cannot protect life, then we will rejoice in death -- but we will do something!

And I'm not against doing something, just the quality has to be totally different.

Q: BHAGWAN, ARE YOU NO GURU AT ALL OR ARE YOU THE RICH MAN'S GURU?

A: From my side, I am no guru at all.

The word guru has become almost condemnatory. The root meaning of the word is beautiful. The word originally means one who is more consolidated, crystallized, one who has more weight.

In Hindi, gravitation is called guruthwa karshan. Just as the earth gravitates, the guru gravitates people towards himself -- without doing anything. The earth is not doing anything while gravitating you; it is just the nature of the earth that anything that is within its area of two hundred miles will start being pulled towards it.

Guru means one who is weight-full, centered, rooted, and has the quality of gravitation. But that original meaning has been lost, and particularly since Indian gurus started appearing in the West, it has become almost a dirty word.

And it has to become so because the people who came to the West were not gurus at all. They came to the West to exploit people. They knew -- at least they were knowledgeable -- about many things of which the West was unaware. They were more philosophical, more theological, more argumentative. That has been a professional thing in India for centuries. So when they came to the West they immediately had a great impact. The Christian minister looked very poor. Even the best scholarly rabbi was no competition.

And these were not very great men, those who had come. They had come here to have a following, to collect money, and finally, to take that money to India to make temples in India and places for them and their disciples to live. But it was all a materialistic thing; there was nothing of the spirit at all.

Naturally, the word guru became a condemned word. That's why I say I am no guru at all, in the sense the word is used today. But in the original sense, I cannot deny it. You are the proof, enough proof, so how I can deny it? People have fallen in love with me, have completely devoted their lives to me. I have never asked. It was their feeling.

There was something of tremendous gravitation, and people from faraway countries started coming to me. I would never have left India if I had not felt that if people from all over the world had to go there, and suffer unnecessary sicknesses....

The water is polluted, the air is polluted, almost every sannyasin was suffering from amoebas, had disturbed stomachs, and still with all this suffering they were not going to leave me. They were ready to suffer, to remain sick, to have all bodily pains, but they were not going to leave there.

It was not only my disease, that was just an excuse -- because I never wanted to say that I have moved from there because of you, so I simply said I am moving from India because of my own body, its sickness.

But in a way, it implied you too, because you are my body and your sickness is my sickness and your health will be my health.

But this was the basic reason I wanted to get out of India: because so many thousands of people were coming; at least I should give them a place where they have pure water, pure air, open air, and no unnecessary harassment. In India it was impossible.

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friendship -- a friendship because you are my fellow travelers.

So I have avoided the word guru because of its derogatory connotations. I have avoided the term religious leader because the word leader means, "I know and you do not know, so you follow me, you believe in me." That I cannot say to anybody; that is simply humiliating the person.

Whatever I know, I put it before you. If you feel like choosing, you choose. Wherever I am going, I make it clear to you. I don't say, "Come and follow me." That is up to you. That is your freedom.

I am in a strange position: what word to use? Guru has become an ugly word. Its translation in English as master has also lost its meaning....

So I am saying to you I am your friend. On the path, I am ready to be your light, I am ready to be your guide, because the guide is not holier than you or higher than you. He just knows the way. The way is there, he can help you to move on the way, he can help you to avoid pitfalls.

But this is my side, that I am only a friendly guide. From your side, you are free to think what you want, because I cannot decide that.

Q: BHAGWAN, BEAUTIFUL, RARE BEINGS, SUCH AS LAO TZU, LIEH TZU, AND CHUANG TZU, HAVE EVOLVED OUT OF CHINA. THAT WAS THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO. CHINA TODAY HAS

CHANGED ITS FACE TO A ROBOTLIKE COUNTRY. IN YOUR VISION, DO YOU SEE ANY

POSSIBILITY OF SPIRITUALITY RISING AGAIN IN CHINA?

A: Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, Lieh Tzu, were certainly great Masters that have walked on the earth -- rare human beings -- but they have not made a clear-cut way so that others can also follow. No religion came into being because of these three great Masters. It remained a philosophy. They attracted people, but the attraction never went beyond intellect. And there is a reason for it.

China has lived under the influence of Confucius, and Confucius was exactly an ancient Karl Marx, a sociologist of great insight, but he was not a religious master. He gave China its social structure, he gave China the principles of behavior and etiquette, but he never gave anything that leads to interiority. And Confucius' influence is the greatest in China.

It is because of Confucius that communism became important. They fitted with each other very intimately, with no contradiction.

Communism cannot fit with Hinduism, communism cannot fit with Jainism, but it can fit with Confucianism, because Confucianism is not a religion; it is only a sociology, and there is no conflict between Confucius and Karl Marx. Now Confucius is twenty-five centuries older than Karl Marx, but he has said everything essential that Karl Marx repeats after twenty-five centuries. And the moment China discovered communism it felt that it was just what they had always been thinking about.

So communism is not just accidental, and not imported. Although it looks like it is imported, it is not imported; it is Confucius and his teaching, turning and taking a new phase, a new color.

This is the reason why China and Russia could not stay together. Both are communist countries, both believe in Karl Marx and DAS KAPITAL, but Russia does not have the background of Confucius, while China has a long tradition of Confucianism. So Russian communism is pure Marxian. Chinese communism is just communism for name's sake, it is basically ninety percent Confucianism.

And these three great Masters remained individuals. Once in a while somebody was impressed by their writings, but it remained intellectual, so there is no hope in the near future of Lieh Tzu, Chuang Tzu or Lao Tzu being born again in China, or their influence in any way changing the course of China's history, because in fact they have never been of any great importance in China's mind.

Confucius and Lao Tzu were contemporaries. Confucius had even gone to meet Lao Tzu, because Lao Tzu was certainly a man of tremendous qualities. Confucius was a great thinker, but only a thinker. He had nothing as far as his own inner consciousness is concerned, no experience, no idea who he is, but he had planned for the society perfectly well, a very mannered, cultured society.

Hearing that Lao Tzu was nearby, living in a cave beyond the lake, he went to see him. A few of his disciples also went, but he told them, "You wait outside the cave." They said, "Why? It will be good, we can listen." He said, "You don't understand. I will tell you the reason later on. Let me go first. If I feel it right I will call you in."

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would not even ask. He did not say hello or even hi -- even that short form, "hi." He simply sat down, looking at Confucius, and Confucius said, "Sir, don't you believe in manners?"

Lao Tzu laughed. He said, 'I thought you knew an the manners -- what is the need for me to tell you? If you feel like sitting, you will sit down! You are not a man who does not know manners. If you like to stand up, it is my etiquette not to disturb you. You can stand up!" Confucius said, "But you... you did not even say hello." Lao Tzu said, "I said it. You could not hear it. It was a test: I said it silently. I wanted to know whether the famous philosopher Confucius understands silence or not. So you understand only words -- that much is decided! And you have expectations. You cannot sit down on your own, you have to be told.

"This cave does not belong to me. When I came here, nobody said 'sit down,' because nobody was here.

Why should I say it? It is not my cave, nothing belongs to me. Just the way I am sitting, you can sit down.

You are not a child to be told."

Confucius had never met such a man. And on each point he was rebuffed badly. Then Lao Tzu said, "If you really want to learn anything, first go and renounce all the idiots you have collected as your disciples.

You don't know anything and you have thousands of disciples. It is hilarious! You just go and tell them the truth, that you don't know anything, and then come, because I teach only if somebody does not know. If he knows it already, why should he bother me? An old man... Leave me alone!"

Confucius came out, and he had not the courage to say to his disciples that he did not know. He had thousands of disciples, he was the most famous man at that time. Very few people knew about Lao Tzu.

Confucius has remained a shadow over the whole of Chinese history. It is only somewhere in the footnotes you can find the name of Lao Tzu.

Confucius was not courageous enough to say "I do not know." The disciples said "You didn't ask us to come in. He said, "It was good that I didn't ask you to come in. And please don't ask the reason. That man is not a man; he is a dragon. He is dangerous, avoid him as far as possible. This is my first and last meeting with that old guy!"

And he was perspiring. It was a cold morning and the cave was very cool, but he was perspiring. The disciples said, "But why are you perspiring?" He said, "I am alive -- that's enough! Just take me away from here."

Lao Tzu has never been a great influence. He was a silent man. Once in a while somebody would come who was courageous enough to be with him He was not ready to come down to meet you, to be with you and to be amongst you. It simply was not his characteristic. He would remain on top of the hill. You would have to go to the hilltop, he was not going to come into the valley. He was not like a man, which I am.

I can come to any depth where you are hiding and catch hold of your head and pull you out. He was not that kind of man; he would simply sit on top of the hill. Anybody who wants... but who wants to go that far?

He never wrote a single word, he never gave a single speech -- just a few conversations here and there, and only if somebody asked something. And then too, he was not nice, as is expected of Masters. Confucius was right that he was a dragon. He would kill you!

Chuang Tzu is a very important person in the history of the whole world, not only China. There is not a single person in all history who can be compared with Chuang Tzu.

He wrote the most absurd parables. To understand his parables you will have to be something close to his consciousness, otherwise you will understand those parables as jokes. Those parables are the most significant religious stories, but they are absurd. They contradict -- the same story goes into so many contradictions, you are at a loss to figure out what he wants or where is the conclusion, or what is the meaning of it all.

But if you can meditate and with meditative eyes look at his stories, you will be surprised: he is saying things which cannot be said through words, and just to say them he has created all those contradictions.

Figuring out those contradictions you will suddenly come to understand a truth which was not said in the story at all, but if you try to figure out the contradiction meditatively, that truth is bound to be revealed to you. It is just there, but he has not said it.

He was certainly the strangest creator of parables. There are parables of Aesop; in India there are parables of Panchtantra -- beautiful stories -- but all have simple mottos, simple teachings, there is nothing great about them. They explain to you a certain truth. But Chuang Tzu looks mad to anyone who reads him, hence he was never an influence. How could he be an influence? People were even afraid to go to him because he would say things that if they got into your head, you would become crazy. What to do about those things?

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wondering since I woke up in the morning: perhaps the butterfly has gone to sleep and is dreaming that she has become Chuang Tzu. What is your opinion? Which is true? Chuang Tzu dreaming himself as a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming herself as Chuang Tzu -- what is the truth?"

Now, if this gets into your mind, you are going to be puzzled, and you had not come to get puzzled. You are already confused and this man is confusing you more.

So only very rarely a person would be able.... When he used to tell this story to anybody, that was enough, and the man would escape. "Nobody knows. Even I don't know whether I am dreaming you are here or you are dreaming I am here. This is beyond me. And I am not such a philosopher. You meditate over it. If you come to any conclusion, I live just nearby, and you can inform me. This is my name, but please don't harass me.

Just one young man, when he told this story, said, "Wait. I have the answer." Chuang Tzu said,

"Really?" He said, "Yeah." He went out. He had brought a bucket of ice-cold water and he poured it on Chuang Tzu and said, "Wake up!"

Chuang Tzu said, "Really great! I was waiting for something like this answer. You are accepted as my disciple. You are the right man."

That's what has to be done: if somebody is talking about dream and he became a butterfly or a butterfly became a dream, all that he needs is to have a bucket of ice-cold water thrown on him so he wakes up, whoever he is. If he is Chuang Tzu, he will be Chuang Tzu. If he is a butterfly, he will be a butterfly. Things will be cleared. "Anyway, the sleep has to be broken."

He said, "This answer was so close to the story but it never happened to anybody. Thousands have heard the story, and they laugh and they talk about it and they tell it to each other, and it has spread all over the country; but not a single man thought of a single solution. All that is needed is to wake up the man, whoever he is. Waking up will be decisive. Only that can be decisive."

So the young man said, "Have I to do anything more or are you satisfied?" Chuang Tzu said, "I am perfectly satisfied, because more will be too much. You just sit down. You are accepted." He said, "I had come to be accepted. I have listened to great masters, but I have not found anything great. I have been to many monasteries, but all is ordinary. Then I heard about your story and then I thought, 'Here is something extraordinary. Now I have to find this man.'"

And all his stories are like that.... Now how many people can you influence?

So these people remained peaks, reaching to the stars, but beyond human intelligence. They never were influential in China. In fact, listening to me you have become aware of their names. Otherwise, ordinarily nobody bothers about Chuang Tzu, Lieh Tzu or Lao Tzu. Nobody has written commentaries on these people. I am the only man who has spoken for years continuously...

I spoke for one year continuously on Lao Tzu, every day. His book is very small, he wrote it in three days. I spoke on it one year in Hindi, and then when people from outside started coming, I spoke again on a few chosen parts. And you know me -- my memory is not good, so I forgot what I said in Hindi -- I had to interpret it again.

So the Hindi books are being translated and you will be puzzled, because what I have said in Hindi I have not said in English, and what I have said in English I have not said in Hindi. In fact, there was a gap of four, five years between the two series, and I never look back to what I said yesterday, and I don't feel any obligation to remain consistent with it.

Certainly, what I said in English is more up to date, because it is five years afterwards. And this gives me an immense freedom. Any day if it happens to me, I can start speaking on Lao Tzu again, because I don't know now what I have spoken on him -- whether in Hindi or English. Both are forgotten. I can give you a third commentary.

Otherwise, these peoples'names are not known -- what to say about their influence.

So in China it seems very difficult. The meeting of Confucius and Karl Marx is very dangerous. They both are materialists, they both believe only in certain moral rules, and they don't think that there is anything beyond this life.

In Russia, there is more possibility that we may have many more sannyasins. China seems to be far away; it is more difficult to penetrate the Chinese skull. It is made hard, first by Confucius and now it has got a new coating -- more modern, more contemporary -- of Marxism.

But nobody can deny the fact that perhaps, if China becomes richer, more affluent, more educated, more open to the outside world -- as is happening, it is opening its doors to the outside world-then there is a possibility sometime in the future that the Chinese youth can be approached.

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But China is the most difficult country out of all the countries for the transformation of man.

Okay, Isabel?

The Last Testament, Vol 2

Chapter #20

Chapter title: None

10 September 1985 pm in Jesus Grove

Archive code: 8509105

ShortTitle: LAST220

Audio:

Yes

Video:

Yes

Length: 93 mins

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

INTERVIEW WITH HUGH SCHMIDT, THE MELBOURNE HERALD GROUP, MELBOURNE, AUSTRALIA Q:* IS YOUR RETINUE OF SANNYASINS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD GROWING IN NUMBER

OR IS IT DECLINING?

A:* It is growing fast.

Q:* CAN YOU ESTIMATE HOW MANY YOU MIGHT HAVE WORLDWIDE?

A:* More than one million.

Q:* HOW MANY SAY TEN YEARS AGO WOULD YOU THINK? OR WHEN YOU LEFT INDIA HOW

MANY DO YOU THINK YOU HAD?

A:* It is difficult for me to remember -- what is left, is left.

Q:* AND WHAT DO YOU THINK BRINGS PEOPLE TO PLACES LIKE RAJNEESHPURAM? DO

YOU THINK IT'S FOR THE GOOD LIFE OR DO YOU THINK TO FIND THEMSELVES, TO FIND THEIR

INNER SELVES OR IS IT A COMBINATION OF REASONS THAT BRINGS PEOPLE HERE TO LIVE?

A:* They are inseparable; they are not two things. Unless you find yourself, you cannot live a good life.

Finding yourself is fundamental. Everything else follows it.

Q:* IN WESTERN AUSTRALIA THERE IS QUITE A STRONG AND HEALTHY COMMUNE IN

FREMANTLE, AND THEY WERE TRYING TO GET ESTABLISHED IN PEMBERTON WHICH CAUSED

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QUITE A LOT OF CONCERN AMONGST THE LOCAL POPULATION. THE PEMBERTON COUNCIL

HAS REFUSED TO ISSUE THEM A PERMIT -- DOES THAT WORRY YOU AT ALL?

A:* No. There is no question of worry. We will be fighting.

Q:* YOU'LL BE FIGHTING?

A:* We really enjoy fighting.

Q:* SO YOU'LL BE FIGHTING IT LEGALLY IN...?

A:* Legally.

Q:* YOU SAID SOME TIME AGO THAT YOU'D LIKE TO VISIT AUSTRALIA, PARTICULARLY

WEST....

A:* Certainly.

Q:* DO YOU THINK YOU'LL STILL GO DOWN THERE?

A:* Still.

Q:* DO YOU THINK THE LOCAL TOWNSPEOPLE IN THE SMALL TOWN OF PEMBERTON

SHOULD BE WORRIED ABOUT THE RAJNEESHEES?

A:* They are unnecessarily worried. They should be happy, because we do no harm to anybody. We mean no harm to anybody. We are so absorbed in our own life and joy, that we don't at all have any time for others. They should be happy that a joyous group has joined them. They can learn much from my people.

They can learn how to laugh, how to dance, how to sing and how to make life a paradise.

Q:* DO YOU THINK YOU HAVE A PARADISE ON EARTH (INAAUDIBLE) A:* Yes. We have! And you can go around this paradise and you will find only joy and love.

Q:* EVERYONE SEEMS TO BE SMILING AND HAPPY.

A:* Everybody is happy.

Q:* HAVE YOU EVER HAD TO ASK ANY, ANYONE TO LEAVE RAJNEESHPURAM?

A:* No. Never. People join on their own; if they want to leave, they have to leave on their own.

Freedom is the rule.

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Q:* YOU HAVE A FAIRLY ACTIVE POLICE FORCE HERE -- DO THEY GET MUCH WORK TO

DO?

A:* They have nothing, no work. If you can give them some work in Australia... I can bring them with me when I come! They are really fed up with their guns: four years carrying guns and nothing to shoot!

Q:* HOW IS YOUR HEALTH THESE DAYS, BHAGWAN?

A:* It is better.

Q:* DO YOU HAVE TO TAKE MEDICATION?

A:* Yes.

Q:* ARE YOU A VEGETARIAN?

A:* Everybody here is vegetarian. To be non-vegetarian is inhuman. The non-vegetarian is exactly equal to a cannibal -- there is no difference -- except that cannibals eat better meat than the non-vegetarians.

Q:* BHAGWAN, WHY DID YOU BREAK YOUR SILENCE WHICH LASTED NEARLY THREE

YEARS?

A:* I am a man of the moment: neither I look backward nor I look forward. This moment herenow is enough unto itself. If I feel like speaking, I speak -- whether there is anybody to hear it or not does not matter! If I don't want to speak, even if the whole world is ready to listen, I will not speak. I simply live according to my feelings.

Q:* WELL, YOUR WORDS TONIGHT ARE GOING TO BE READ BY AT LEAST FOUR MILLION

PEOPLE, IF THEY BUY THE PAPER.

A:* That's good!

Q:* GETTING ONTO ANOTHER SUBJECT WHICH I KNOW IS NOT TABOO HERE....

A:* No. Nothing is tabooed here, so you can discuss any subject without any inhibition.

Q:* I BELIEVE FOR AT LEAST A YEAR YOU HAVE BEEN AWARE OF THE DANGER OF THE AIDS

PROBLEM AND YOU HAVE INSTILLED CAREFUL PRECAUTIONS AMONGST YOUR SANNYASINS --

IS THAT CORRECT?

A:* That's right.

Q:* FOR HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN AWARE OF THIS DANGER?

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A:* Just for the last year.

Q:* DO YOU THINK IT COULD DESTROY MANKIND OR....?

A:* It can. It has every possibility. It is not a normal disease, because it has no cure. In fact to call it disease is not right; it is death itself. Only death has no cure. And the ways it spreads are so many, that's why it is almost going to kill two-third of humanity, because you can catch it just by kissing somebody, you can catch it by washing somebody's tears, you can catch it by somebody sneezing at you.

It used to be a joke that sex is nothing but a sneeze. For the first time it has become a reality. Any liquid coming out of the body of the person who is suffering from AIDS can infect. And once you are infected, you become a carrier; you will infect your wife, your children, everybody -- unconsciously, unknowingly.

Just now I received the message that in New York City alone, ninety-five percent homosexuals are positively confirmed AIDS patients, thirty-five percent of prostitutes of New York are confirmed AIDS

patients, and every city is at a loss what to do. Because these thirty-five percent prostitutes will be spreading it every day and they must have spread to thousands of people already, and those people on their own.... So it is just like a wildfire and so invisible that you cannot prevent it.

Governments are repressing information, because no nation wants to be condemned that it has so much perverted sexuality. Religions are repressing. No monastery has declared yet how many percentage of the monks are suffering from AIDS. They must be suffering more than anyone else, because to me AIDS is a religious contribution to the world. Insisting on celibacy, insisting that monks should live separate from nuns, insisting that sex is sin, are the causes, the basic causes which have led ultimately to AIDS. The whole responsibility lies with your popes, Ayatollah Khomeini, Hindu shankaracharya and the religious leaders --

they all are doing the same thing for centuries. They have created homosexuality.

In the wild, animals never turn homosexual, but in a zoo when, where females are not available, even animals become homosexuals. Your monasteries are nothing but zoos. And man is more intelligent than animals, so he is going to find some way for his sexual energy -- and what he can do?

It is beyond his powers. Just by taking a vow of celibacy, he cannot make his biology understand that, "I am celibate." The biology goes on functioning in its own way; it doesn't care about you at all -- your philosophy, ideology, religion. It will create blood, it will create semen, it will function on its own. It is not in your control in any way.

So what the monk has to do with his sexual energy? It is a well-known fact that all the monks of all the religions, have to find something or other. They have made love to animals, sodomy is as old as old testament; it comes, the very word sodomy comes from old testament. They have been homosexuals, nuns have been lesbians....

So no religion wants to declare how many homosexuals are in their monasteries. No city wants to take the note and inform the world and no individual wants to go through the test even! Because once you are confirmed that you are a homosexual, and you have a positive AIDS, you are a condemned individual. You will not have any other exit except suicide, because even your parents, your wife, your children, your brothers, sisters, friends, all will deny you.

Q:* A NEWSPAPER I SAW IN VANCOUVER TWO DAYS AGO HAS A RAJNEESHPURAM DATELINE

AND IT SAYS, "AIDS HAS STRUCK THE RAJNEESHEES: TWO FOLLOWERS OF GURU BHAGWAN

SHREE RAJNEESH HAVE CONTRACTED THE USUAL, USUALLY FATAL DISEASE." IS IT TRUE?

A:* It is true, because this is the only place in the whole world where everybody in this commune has gone through the test, and we have found two persons suffering from AIDS.

These two persons are not condemned by the commune; on the contrary, they are receiving more love, more respect, for the simple reason because they are victims of religion. We have given them our best houses in the best scenic places -- to live, to read, to see the films, whatever they want to do and whatever we can supply to them. They can come to the commune, they can come to the lectures, they can come to the meditations, but they have to be careful not in any way contact physically anybody. And they understand it 1/08/07

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and they are tremendously grateful that they are here in this commune. In any other city they would have been thrown out.

Hospitals are not taking AIDS patients in; they are refusing.

Q:* ARE THESE TWO PEOPLE RELATED? OR ARE THEY LIVING TOGETHER NOW.

A:* No. They are together now, living in one place, but they are not related.

Q:* SO THE SANNYASINS WHO LIVE HERE ARE TAUGHT AND ENCOURAGED TO TAKE EVERY

PRECAUTION -- THEY DON'T ALLOW KISSING OR....?

A:* Every precaution -- they have been told whatever can be dangerous to others. And they are intelligent people: once they understand a thing, they simply do it. In four years time, not a single baby has been born in the commune, because they understand; the world is so much overpopulated, now going on populating it more is simply making it more miserable, more starving. You are creating a burden for the world and you are giving your child an ugly world which is going to die either through AIDS or through nuclear weapons -- what is the point to give to the child such a world?

And nobody has prevented them. Just I explain things to them and then leave it up to their intelligence.

Q:* SO YOU PRACTICE ZERO BIRTH GROWTH?

A:* Zero birth growth. And that is unique. Nowhere in the whole world you will find five thousand people living together with zero birth control.

Q:* BUT SURELY IF THE OUTSIDE WORLD ADOPTED THE SAME POLICY, IT WOULDN'T TAKE

LONG FOR THE THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES, WHO WOULD NEVER PRACTICE ZERO BIRTH

CONTROL, TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD MAYBE.

A:* They can, they can, if they drop this stupid idea that they have to be democracies. My approach is that to afford democracy you have to be at a certain standard of living; below it you cannot afford democracy. Democracy is not so cheap. It is better those poor countries understand it, that what they need is a very dictatorial regime, that enforces anything that is going against humanity, against the nation.

Poor countries cannot afford democracy. What to say about poor countries? -- even a country like America can only talk about democracy, it cannot afford it. Democracy is yet to happen!

Q:* ARE YOU POLITICALLY-MINDED, BHAGWAN?

A:* No.

Q:* WHAT DO YOU THINK OF PRESIDENT REAGAN?

A:* Just a third-class fellow. But that is a necessary qualification for becoming a president or a prime minister: only third-class people aspire for those places. All politicians suffer from inferiority complex, so they want to become superior, just to convince themselves that they are not inferior.

Superior people need not convince themselves -- they know they are! So they may be painters, poets, they may be beggars -- it does not matter. If they don't suffer from inferiority complex, politics does not enter in.

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Q:* YOU'RE A LEADER OF A BIG GROUP OF PEOPLE; PEOPLE LOOK UP TO YOU -- WHAT

HAVE YOU GOT THAT PRESIDENT REAGAN HASN'T GOT?

A:* I am not a leader... and I have not tried to convert anybody to my way of life or my way of thinking.

The people have come on their own, feeling some synchronicity between me and themselves. That's what I have and Reagan does not have. You can see that: where is Jimmy Carter now? Tomorrow the same will be the situation of Ronald Reagan. But I am going to be here for the whole coming history! Because I am not a leader.

A leader is something like a daily newspaper: by the evening it is useless. Just like your newspaper!

Q:* GOOD FOR WRAPPING UP FISH AND FISH AND FRENCH FRIES. YES.

A:* Give him some water!

Q:* ARE YOU HAVING A BIRTHDAY SOON AREN'T YOU? ARE YOU HAVING A BIG

CELEBRATION FOR YOUR BIRTHDAY?

A:* I do not have any celebration. Every moment is a celebration to me. Talking to you, I am enjoying it so much!

Q:* ARE YOU REALLY ENJOYING IT?

A:* Really! My people celebrate -- I remain the same: I am celebrating all the year round.

Q:* WISH I HAD SOMETHING TO CELEBRATE ALL THE YEAR ROUND TOO.

A:* You celebrate!

Q:* DO YOU SPEND MUCH TIME OF YOUR DAY READING OR WRITING?

A:* No. I have never written anything.

Q:* DO YOU READ NEWSPAPERS?

A:* I don't read anything.

Q:* DO YOU RISE EARLY IN THE MORNING OR DO YOU JUST GET UP WHEN YOU FEEL LIKE

IT?

A:* No. If I leave it to that I may not rise! So I leave it to my people to wake me up at six o'clock... Six in the morning. On my own I will not get up again -- just a bone-lazy fellow!

Q:* DO YOU MEDITATE FOR MANY HOURS A DAY?

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A:* It is my twenty-four hour thing, because I will have to explain a little bit about it.... Other religions have prescribed people few minutes, half an hour -- to meditate, concentrate, contemplate, pray -- but to me the whole idea is idiotic that you can meditate for half an hour and for the remaining twenty-three and half hour, you can remain non-meditative. That is impossible. It is just like, "Breathe half an hour and for the remaining, forget all about it -- tomorrow morning breathe again."

Meditation is something that has to become your constant companion. So my method is such that it disturbs nothing. For example, I am talking to you: my method is while I am talking to you, I am fully aware of what I am saying, to whom I am saying.... Every gesture of my hand is with full awareness.

So do whatsoever you are doing -- walking on the street or swimming on the lake -- but remain conscious of your activity. Then you can be twenty-four hours in meditation. And unless you can be twenty-four hours in meditation, all your half an hour meditations are toys: you are just befooling yourself.

Q:* DO YOU EVER VISIT THE PUBLIC ENTERTAINMENT IN RAJNEESHPURAM?

A:* No.

Q:* I BELIEVE YOU DID MAKE A QUICK VISIT TO THE DISCO ONE NIGHT.

A:* Yes. One night.... I went... just to shock my people! But it was not much of a disco, because as I went there, everything stopped and the whole commune gathered in the disco and around the disco, so I had just to go in and come out. I have not seen anything there except people -- the same people I see everywhere!

I wanted to know what the hell this disco is, but they did not allow me! I don't go anywhere. And entertainment is needed because you are not blissful with yourself... something is missing in you, some worry, some tension, that you want to forget. Entertainment helps you, for the time being.

To me there is no point at all in going to any entertainment. I am not against it -- I can go. If people feel happy by my going there, I can go anywhere, hell included!

But as far as I am concerned, I don't need any entertainment: I am so full of blissfulness in myself.

Q:* BUT YOU DON'T MIND YOUR SANNYASINS ENJOYING THEMSELVES AT THESE....?

A:* I don't mind, because they have yet to come to the space where I am. And I tell them that, "Enjoy and entertainment yourself as much as you can, because soon you will be sitting like me! So before that happens, the calamity of enlightenment, you just do every nonsense that you want to do, because later on there is nothing left to be done.

Q:* YES. LIVE LIFE FOR TODAY.

A:* Yes. Live life for today, because tomorrow is entertainment within yourself! Or tomorrow is enlightenment; today you enjoy and do all kinds of foolish things -- go to the disco, go to the restaurant, and go to the playing cards -- do everything that a fool is expected to do! Because after enlightenment, now I know I missed so many things -- and missed forever!

Q:* DO YOU DENY YOURSELF PLEASURES OF THE FLESH?

A:* I don't deny anything. I don't deny anything. I am available to everything, but... it is not my need. I enjoy everything.

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Q:* DO YOU ENJOY A DRINK OF ALCOHOL? -- BEER OR WINE.

A:* No. I don't like the taste. Otherwise they are vegetarian and there is no problem for me. I have tasted everything, but I did not like the taste! I am not against alcohol; I am against the taste of it.

Q:* BUT YOU LIKE YOUR SANNYASINS TO BE MODERATE IN UM....

A:* There is no question. I never give to my sannyasins any shoulds and should nots. Just I tell them: be alert and aware and do whatsoever you want to do. And don't wait for tomorrow, because who knows? --

tomorrow you may become enlightened -- that is the difficulty here!

Q:* WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE BHAGWAN SHUFFLES OFF THIS MORTAL COIL? WILL THE

RAJNEESHEES JUST FADE AWAY OR DO YOU THINK THE MOVEMENT WILL STAY FOREVER?

A:* That is for them to decide, not for me, even to discuss, because that may give some hint and I don't want even to give a hint what they have to do. Even while I am alive, I don't give them any directions. I am simply making them more and more alert and intelligent, and I depend on their intelligence. And I know whatever they will do right. Only retarded people need to be guided. Immature people need ten commandments.

I have got intelligent people around me. Almost all are university graduates, with all kinds of degrees --

Masters and Ph.D.'s, in all subjects. We are absolutely a self-sufficient organic commune. We have our doctors, we have our dentists, we have our nurses, we have our surgeons, we have our professors, we have our psychoanalysts -- we have everybody that we need.

Q:* YOU NEED A PSYCHOANALYST HERE?

A:* We need, because people who come from outside... sometimes they have repressed themselves so much and finding so much freedom without any discipline to enjoy freedom, they go nuts! For them we have therapists, all kinds of therapies. But for my own people there is no question. In fact every sannyasin is a therapist himself. Just listening to me for years... has made them as capable as any Sigmund Freud or Adler or Jung or Assagioli. In fact they understand more than Sigmund Freud, because Sigmund Freud was not aware of any meditation techniques. And psychology is incomplete without meditation, because then it is only superficial. Analysis of your dreams is not going to lead you to the realization of your being.

But the vice versa is totally different: if you realize your being, your dreams disappear.

So every sannyasin understands more. I have not written a single book, but there are at least three-hundred-fifty -- that's what my people say, because I have never counted.

Q:* THOSE BOOKS ARE WRITTEN FROM YOUR TALKS?

A:* Yes. From my talks, just verbatim.

Q:* JUST LIKE THIS MIGHT BE USED?

A:* This will be.

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Q:* DO YOU EVER PLAY BACK WHAT YOU HAVE SAID OR DO YOU, ONCE YOU'VE SAID IT, JUST FORGET ABOUT IT?

A:* I go on contradicting myself.... Anybody who is growing, every moment, expanding is bound to contradict things of the past. Only people who are stuck at a point in their psychological development, remain consistent. Consistency is a disqualification. It simply shows a retarded person.

I love Walt Whitman's saying that, "I am vast enough to contain all contradictions." And this I can quote not only intellectually -- it is my own experience: I can contain all contradictions without any trouble. In fact the moment they are within me, they become complementaries.

Q:* WHAT DO YOU THINK OF MATERIAL THINGS? I'VE READ VARIOUS REPORTS ABOUT YOU

HAVING SEVENTY ROLLS ROYCES AND I NOTICE YOU HAVE A BEAUTIFUL DIAMOND WATCH ON

YOUR HAND -- DO MATERIAL THINGS WORRY YOU AT ALL OR DO THEY CONCERN YOU?

A:* I don't make any distinction between the material and the spiritual -- that is one of my most basic approaches. All the religions of the world have created a schizophrenic humanity, by dividing -- matter and spirit, this world and that world, God and creation, body and mind -- everywhere they have created duality.

And in fact you are not a duality.

When you drink alcohol, it does not go in your mind; it goes into your physiology, but it affects your mind. Your mind is not separate from it. When you are hungry, starving, and the necessary proteins for your brain are not available to you, you start losing your intelligence. So to me, life is one organic whole. Matter is visible existence, the soul is invisible existence, but both are one and together.

So to me, to meditate and be in a beautiful space, and to be in the best car of the world, are not two separate things. And I love every beautiful thing, whether it is diamond or whether it is emerald or rubies...

or ordinary stones!

You look at my watch again -- these are not diamonds, these are ordinary stones. But they are so beautiful, they can defeat any diamonds. And this watch is made by one of my sannyasins, that's why I said, we are absolutely self-sufficient. Everything that I am using, from my shoes to my hat, is made by my sannyasins. This watch must be the cheapest watch in the world -- and the best!

Q:* DOES IT KEEP GOOD TIME?

A:* The best -- only one second per year it will lose! And it has no value in the sense of price, because these stones cost nothing and my sannyasins simply have worked out of love. But in other words, it is also invaluable. If somebody is going to give me one billion dollars for this watch, it is not for sale. Love is never for sale!

I have half million dollar watches too -- and not one but dozens, because I believe in abundance -- but most often I use my sannyasins' watches. They have made five, six and they are continuously making. Soon I will be using only their watches. Those million dollar watches are just rotting. I am not caring any more about them, because diamond is not the question; the question is the beauty, the love poured into it....

So I am absolutely in tune with the material world... and I am not losing anything spiritual. In fact, the more I am grounded in the material existence, the more I can rise higher into the spiritual world. A man is almost like a tree: the roots go deeper into the ground, in the darkness, under the earth, the tree grows higher and higher above, aspiring to touch the stars! Deeper the roots, higher the tree. Don't forget the roots, otherwise the tree will be dead. That's what has happened in religious countries; they denied matter.

For example, India was the first to discover mathematics, five thousand years before Albert Einstein.

China was first to invent gunpowder, three thousand years before Hiroshima. China was first to invent printing machines, four thousand years before Europe. China started printing currency notes, two thousand years before any other country in the world. But what happened to these people who were so inventive and so ahead of everybody? Religion destroyed these people.

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the country started becoming monks and in search of God, and nobody cared. Otherwise West is just a child.

The whole scientific development is three hundred years old.

If the East was not disturbed by people like Gautam Buddha, Confucius, Mahavira, Krishna, then East would have been thousand times more powerful than America. But the reason why they are suffering and dying and starving -- the whole credit goes to their religious founders: those idiots disturbed millions of peoples' life. As far as I am concerned I consider them criminals and not ordinary criminals -- extraordinary criminals!

And my effort here is to make man whole, to drop the split, the division, the schizophrenia, so he can have all that matter can give and he can have all that spirit can give. Why not have both the worlds? I don't see the point -- why choose? If I can go to paradise in Rolls Royce, I don't see the point -- why should I go carrying a cross?

I am going into a Rolls Royce! If Mohammed can go on his horse directly to paradise, why not I can go on a Rolls Royce? There is no problem! And he has only one horse and I have ninety Rolls Royces, which have ten times more horse power....

Q:* THAT'S A THOUSAND TIMES MORE HORSE POWER.

A:* They are not yet complete. My garage is still waiting for more. And my sannyasins are preparing for three-hundred-sixty-five. One for every day seems to be exactly right.

Q:* IN THESE DAYS OF FEAR ABOUT AIDS, DO YOU THINK YOUR PHILOSOPHY OF FREE

LOVE IS A VIABLE PHILOSOPHY? SURELY THE PRECAUTIONS THAT SANNYASINS HAVE TO TAKE, MUST TAKE A LOT OF THE ENJOYMENT OUT OF LOVE.

A:* No. Not at all. These precautions they have to take because of you -- because of the world, because of the society. These precautions are not just only against AIDS. AIDS is only symbolic of your whole world. And just in the beginning it seems to be unnatural -- just it is like if you go to an aboriginal tribe where people live naked: your clothes seems to be very unnatural. They don't seem unnatural to you, but the people who are living naked, and enjoying the sun and the sand and the wind, they can't figure it out what happened to you and why you are having a tie around your neck -- are you thinking to commit suicide?

They cannot figure it out, "What has happened to this man?"

The same is the situation: those precautions in the beginning will look precautions, within few days they become part of you. If it is cold, you use the woolen clothes and you don't think that, "This heavy cloth I have to wear and...." You are not grumpy about it. But what to do? If the world is suffering from AIDS, and if I want to save my sannyasins alive, then they have to get accustomed. It is a question only of accustoming. And man -- remember -- has tremendous capacity of adjustment, to anything.

He can live in Siberia, he can live in the hottest places in Africa. Only two creatures are immensely adjustable: man and the cockroach. Wherever you will find man, you will find cockroach, except Rajneeshpuram....

You will not find a cockroach. And wherever you find a cockroach, it is almost certain you will find a man nearby: they have coexisted and they both are capable of strange situations. The cockroach also manages -- perhaps the cockroach is more intelligent in many ways. There are few species of cockroaches which make love... before making love -- and those are the real precautions those people have been taken from centuries, from all diseases, from any kind of trouble -- in the woman's belly, the man makes a new hole, every time he makes love. And you can count those healed holes, that how many times this woman has loved. And he never goes in the same hole again, so he is always making love to a virgin. This I call intelligence!

So there is no problem. My people have not complained, not a single person out of five thousand, that they are having any difficulty. They have understood the situation and they have to rise to the situation to face it.

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better they do it soon, because the disease is really spreading fast in many areas of Europe, in America, in California, where thousands and millions of homosexuals are living. And something has to be done very quickly, but it seems all the leaders are simply trying not to pay attention to it -- that is also a tendency of the human mind. If you are facing something which you cannot solve, then you try to avoid it, as if it is not there.

But we are not in that category. If any problem is there, we take it as a challenge and we want to face it.

Q:* YES, I THINK A LOT OF WORLD LEADERS ARE DOING THE OSTRICH AND PUTTING THEIR

HEAD IN THE SAND AND PRETENDING IT WILL GO AWAY, OR HOPING IT WILL GO AWAY, BUT IT

WON'T GO AWAY.

A:* It cannot go away. In fact, what they are doing may make the situation worse. For example, in Texas they have made a law, that homosexuality is a crime. The homosexuals protested it, went to the Texas supreme court and refused, that the law will stand against them. It is for the first time, because of their protest, that world has become known: one million homosexuals in Texas! And Texas must be the most backward state in America -- what about California?

Now, driving one million homosexuals underground -- because you have turned them into criminals --

driving them underground is far more dangerous. They will continue and now they will not be in any way coming for testing, and they will go on spreading the whole thing around. I think the supreme court has done something wrong, the Texan leaders have done something wrong. Just to make it criminal, a disease does not disappear.

It is not something that you have to make a law against, and finished! And they are feeling very good, that they have done something.

They have done something dangerous.

Q:* YES. IT DOES SOUND A BIT STUPID. DO YOU CONDONE HOMOSEXUALITY IN

RAJNEESHPURAM?

A:* I don't condemn. I tell them that you are victims and you don't need any condemnation or punishment; you need simple therapy and we have therapy groups here, where you can be again made natural, heterosexual. As far as lesbians are concerned, there is no danger, because they don't create AIDS.

So about lesbians, I am not saying anything -- if somebody wants to be a lesbian, that is perfectly good.

Perhaps lesbianism will be the reason to save humanity one day.

If all male by and by become infected, then lesbianism seems to be one of the best ways to prevent humanity from dying. All women should stop making any love to any man -- husband or no husband. Whole human society, the lesbians should spread: all women should become lesbians. That's will be the best solution, and for poor man... they should get tested. If they are still in tact and they are not having AIDS, then they should start donating their semen to the hospitals. That semen can be inseminated to the women for new children.

Q:* THAT'S NOT LIVING FOR TODAY, THOUGH. THAT'S NOT ENJOYING LIFE, IS IT?

A:* It is not a question of enjoying life. It is a question of enjoying everything. This is a great experiment -- at least my people will enjoy. It is really great to see all the women becoming lesbians... and all the male dodos and machos standing in queue before the hospital -- that's what they need, they deserve!

Q:* THE PEOPLE IN MY HOME STATE ARE VERY WORRIED ABOUT THE RAJNEESHEE GROUP

AND HAVE YOU ANY MESSAGE FOR THEM -- CAN YOU ALLAY THEIR FEARS? CAN YOU TELL

THEM SOMETHING THAT MIGHT MAKE THEM FEEL HAPPIER?

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A:* I cannot. I can say only things which will make them more worried! Because to me, to be truthful is more important than their worries. Their worries are their problem, and they are out of their ignorance. They should become acquainted with my approach and they will not see any cause of worry.

Four years before when we came here, the whole Oregon became agitated and frightened and hostile, and they started so many cases against us. And we are defeating them in every case. In fact a situation has come where we are defending the constitution and they are going against it! And I have made it clear that we will stand for the American constitution, because it is one of the most beautiful constitution in the world.

Even if we have to fight against whole America, the constitution is more valuable than this whole America, because it has beautiful values, hopes of all humanity.... But they are unnecessarily worried!

But somehow it seems human nature: to strangers you feel afraid. And I am certainly, in every way a stranger, on every count. We cannot agree on any point. And I am ready, I have given them challenge -- to the governor or to the president -- open challenge to discuss on anything that you think we are wrong. We are ready to listen to you and if we are wrong, we are ready to change ourselves. But if we convince you that you are wrong, then be ready to be changed! That takes the ground away from their feet. They know they are not right.

For example, a commune of five thousand people, for four years, has transformed a desert into an oasis.

Rather than coming here and seeing that we have changed the desert, which was lying for fifty years for sale and nobody was ready to purchase it, because what you will do with the desert? We changed the desert and they are putting cases against us for the misuse of land. I used to think that idiots are spread all over the world, but finally I found they are all in Oregon!

Q:* I'VE HAD A LOOK AT YOUR FARMING COMMUNITY HERE AND THE WAY YOU RECYCLE

THINGS AND IT'S VERY VERY GOOD.

A:* Yes. You just look.... We have been doing everything that.... And there was nothing here -- just one dilapidated house -- and we have created houses for five thousand people and we have created farms, greenhouses for vegetables, fruits. You will have a taste of our fruits. We have our own milk products. And they are without coming here. We have been inviting them that, "At least you should come and see!"

And if it goes against your law, then change your law, because man is not for law. Law is for man. We change the desert and we are criminals, because somehow it goes against your law. And you were never talking about that law; for fifty years the land was not used, it was perfectly lawful.

Five thousand people are living here, but they don't want to accept it as a city. And they had accepted it, they incorporated it. For two years they were funding it as a city, from the state and from the federal government, and seeing my vision of life and my approach to life, they became so agitated and afraid that they declared the city illegal.

So this is the only illegal city in the world. There are cities or there are no cities, but illegal city is an uniqueness.... And we are going to win, because the city exists, and they are denying it. And the amazing part is: in these four years not a single crime, not a single rape, not a single murder, not a single theft, not a single suicide, and this city is illegal. And New York and San Francisco are legal, where every moment there are crimes.

So it seems not to commit crime is illegal. If they force, we should start committing crime -- what to do?

Q:* I WAS TOLD THAT I WOULD SEE ARMED GUARDS PATROLLING THE STREETS -- I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY SINCE I'VE BEEN HERE. DO YOU STILL HAVE ARMED GUARDS?

A:* I have, because every day we receive phone calls that they are going to bring a crowd, to create disturbance, they are going to burn our houses, they are going to create fire, and every day threats that they are going to kill me and kill that. We go on sending those reports to the government that, "You should inquire and look who are the illegal people! We have not threatened anybody."

And those guards are police! -- they are part of the state of Oregon. And they are just there so nobody can create any nuisance.

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Q:* PREVENTIVE RATHER THAN...?

A:* Absolutely preventive, because for four years they have not done any harm to anybody.

Q:* BUT THEY ARE SANNYASINS -- THE POLICEMEN ARE SANNYASINS?

A:* They are sannyasins. They have taken the training of the police. And the sannyasins have topped in every training, in every field, and they have proved their guts there too, and made it clear that it is not going to be a easy thing, to anything if you are planning to do against.

We are harmless, we don't want to do harm to anybody, but we will not let anybody harm us either, because that is too supporting violence.

Q:* SO YOU TAKE ALL NECESSARY STEPS TO...?

A:* We will take every necessary step.

Q:* DO YOU THINK IT... ONE DAY IT MIGHT LEAD TO BLOODSHED?

A:* It is all in their hands, because the governor is keeping the army alert. It looks so stupid! We have invited him that, "You should come and see that these peaceful people, they don't go out, the nearest neighbor is twenty miles away, we have nothing to do with anybody, we are living like a separate island and we don't have to depend on anybody else, we have everything that we need -- you just come and see. And if you see that this is a place where you have to bring army, you just tell us why, what is the reason.

But no, they don't have guts to come and see. And the day they had this secret meeting of all government agencies chiefs, where they decided that army should be kept alert -- that within three hours, army should reach Rajneeshpuram -- he did not allow any of our representatives.... " You were discussing us, you wanted to take some decision about us -- at least you should listen to our story too!" He did not allow that. He did not allow the press either.

Press was not allowed and he said that, "I will talk to the press after the meeting." And whatever he talked was absolute lie! Whatever had happened in the meeting, not a single thing he mentioned to the press.

And whatsoever he mentioned to the press was not discussed in the inside. Just by chance, one journalist managed to get the secret file, and it was shown on the television. Now we have got the copy from that journalist in which they are preparing for a war!

It seems so idiotic....

Q:* HAS THE GOVERNOR VISITED HERE AT ALL? -- STATE GOVERNOR.

A:* No. None of these people who have been deciding there, none of them has been here. And we are every day in the news, every day in the television, in every magazine, every newspaper -- it is not that anything is hidden here. They can come -- and we invited them as our guests! But, no -- they don't want to come.

Q:* YOU WELCOME VISITORS, DON'T YOU?

A:* I welcome visitors, because that's the only way the world to become acquainted with us.

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Q:* I WAS VERY IMPRESSED BY YOUR PRESS ORGANIZATION HERE AND YOUR PUBLIC

RELATIONS AND YOUR CHAMBER OF COMMERCE -- THEY'RE VERY HELPFUL AND....

A:* Anything you will see -- we have tried the best that we can do within our circumstances.

Q:* SORRY TO GO BACK TO MY HOME STATE, BUT WOULD YOU LIKE TO ESTABLISH A RAJNEESHEE COMMUNITY IN...?

A:* Certainly, we are establishing everywhere around the world -- how can we leave Australia? That will be insulting to Australia!

Q:* SO YOU'LL BE FIGHTING THE LEGAL MOVES THAT WILL BE MADE?

A:* Soon we are going to be there. Our people are already there... just they have to come to one place and make a commune. I have many Australian sannyasins....

Just the question is of having a good place so they can have an independent commune. And it will be good for Australia, to see the commune and to see how these people live and, "Why they are so happy and why we are so miserable?"

And in fact, intelligent Australians should help my people. Anything new should be helped, because perhaps this may be the alternative to the rotten society, to a civilization which is dying. So a chance to any new thing must be given. Rather than being hostile, be friendly -- my people are very friendly, very loving.

The Last Testament, Vol 2

Chapter #21

Chapter title: Make It Clear To The World

11 September 1985 pm in Jesus Grove

Archive code: 8509115

ShortTitle: LAST221

Audio:

Yes

Video:

Yes

Length: 134 mins

[NOTE: This discourse is published in the book: The Last Testament, Volume 1, as Chapter 11.]

Ma Prem Isabel

RAJNEESHPURAM

OREGON

QUESTION: BHAGWAN, YOU HAVE BEEN INTERVIEWED ON A DAILY BASIS BY THE WORLD

MEDIA FOR OVER A MONTH. WHAT ROLE DOES THE MEDIA HAVE IN YOUR VISION? CAN

SOMEBODY'S LIFE BE CHANGED BY SEEING YOU ONCE ON A TELEVISION SCREEN?

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ANSWER: It is possible. Life functions very mysteriously. Just seeing a picture, reading a certain statement, seeing my face on the television, may prove the triggering point. There are millions of people in the world who are just on the borderline. A little push or a little pull and they will have crossed the line.

It is simply a matter of your heart being touched. It can be touched by anything, just my voice or just the gesture of my hand. It is unpredictable because what is going to happen to an individual's heart, what is going to touch it, is difficult to say. Perhaps my silence -- the pause that always happens between two sentences, or sometimes even in the middle of a sentence -- may stir something which is already there. Just a little push, a little pull, and the person will never be the same again.

And whatever he has tasted in that moment will grow, becoming a deep longing to come closer to me, to know more about me, to know more about the work that is happening, to know more about people who are around me. And these are the ways a person slowly enters into the energy field I am creating.

Talking to the world media is not just publicity. I have had enough of it. It is in fact using new methods of reaching people's hearts. So it does not matter what they ask, it does not matter what I answer. What matters is that people will be seeing my hands, my eyes, and they are bound to be affected -- this way or that. Either they may fall into a certain love or they may start from that very moment to hate me. But whatever happens, hate or love, I have touched their heart.

To change their hate into love is not difficult. The most difficult thing was to reach to their heart, which has happened. Those who are in love will be looking for books, tapes, videos, and those who are in hate, they will also be looking for the same things.

And once a man becomes emotionally connected with me -- as a friend, as an enemy -- he is part of my people. The enemies also are part of me and my work. Sometimes they do more work than the friends, because they are continuously talking against me.

Listening to them, many people start thinking, "Why are you so disturbed? If you are against, forget about the man." But they cannot forget me either.

And the people to whom they are talking about me will become interested, just as a curiosity in the beginning, but to change curiosity into a longing, a desire, a search, is not difficult. It happens almost automatically.

Q: BHAGWAN, YOU TALK OF CHANGING THE WORLD BY CREATING RAJNEESHEE OASES ALL

OVER, BUT SOMETIMES EVEN YOUR OWN PEOPLE MISUNDERSTAND YOU OR DON'T HAVE THE

COURAGE TO LIVE OUT YOUR VISION. IS IT REALLY POSSIBLE?

A: It is not only possible, it is going to happen. It is absolutely certain.

It is not a question of people understanding me or not -- even my own people may not understand me.

There may be things which their old conditionings are still hindering them to understand. But it doesn't matter. What makes me so certain that this transformation of man is going to happen, whether people understand me or not, is the very situation in which humanity has suddenly landed.

It could have been predicted, but if they cannot understand now, it is impossible that they would have understood five thousand years ago. The seeds were in Moses, the seeds were in Manu, in Mahavira, in Jesus, in Zarathustra, in Krishna, in Gautam Buddha. What has happened was bound to happen. We are reaping the crop that humanity has been sowing for generations: stupid ideas, but once they become accepted, and for generations remain accepted and respectable, nobody inquires about them. For example, the idea of celibacy. For five thousand years in India it has existed as something spiritual that without celibacy there is no possibility of spiritual growth. And I am simply amazed that not a single person in five thousand years raised the question whether celibacy is possible -- because it is not under your control. It is not your mind which can manage it. The mind has no connection with it.

Life is far more intelligent. It has not left essential things for you to decide. For example your breathing: if it was left for you to decide, nobody would be alive. Sometimes you may hesitate whether to breathe or not, whether it is right or wrong, and sometimes you may simply forget. And what will happen when you will go to sleep?

So it is absolutely wrong to say, "I breathe." Breathing is not within your ego's power. It happens on its own. Life breathes in you, and you have no control over it. Man has tried. In yoga, and in other methods in different religions, man has tried, but nobody has succeeded. You cannot succeed against life.

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needed for humanity. Sex is as deeply concerned with humanity as breathing is concerned with you. It cannot be left in the hands of the individuals. There is no choice about it.

And for five thousand years around the world the idea became permanently settled, so whoever was not celibate -- and nobody has ever been celibate -- started feeling guilty. He thought, "Others are able to manage, and only I am not able to manage it. I have a very weak personality, subhuman." But he was not aware that that was the situation of all. They were all hypocrites. And just to keep that hypocrisy nobody was asking the simple question that if sex is a biological phenomenon, in the hands of life, how can you prevent it?

It is possible for a woman to be celibate because her role in sex is that of a receiver. She does not give anything in it. She gets something.

Man cannot be celibate, just the way no woman can avoid the period, the monthly menstrual course, there is no way. And you will be surprised to know that one of the oldest religions of the world, Jainism, has not allowed women directly, from women's bodies, to enter into their paradise. So whatever the woman does

-- all her fasts, austerities, she can become a nun, she can renounce everything -- all this will give her only a man's body in the next birth, because only through a man's body will she be able to enter into enlightenment. There is no way from a woman's body.

And what was the reason? The monthly period -- because in the monthly period something comes out of the woman, and the woman cannot hide it. It is difficult for so many years to keep it a secret and pretend that it doesn't happen, that you have controlled it completely. It is impossible. The blood is coming out of the body. How are you going to prevent it? And the pain and the misery?

It was the monthly period that was given as the reason that women are not capable of controlling their bodies. They cannot rise above their bodies, so they cannot attain spirituality. But man... nobody asks what happens to his semen which is being created continuously by his food, exercise, breathing, whatever he is doing. It is a natural process, the same as the monthly period of the woman. But there is a possibility to keep it a secret. That's how homosexuality entered into religions. That's how masturbation entered into religions.

It is strange that all the religions condemn masturbation, so much so that in India it is said by the religious leaders that the people who go mad, go mad because of masturbation. The reality may be otherwise. The people who go mad are the people who are not masturbating. The people who have been masturbating are simply releasing a certain force that goes on accumulating, and if it remains repressed inside you, it can drive you crazy.

I said to one saint, "This seems to be absurd that masturbation leads people to madness, because the man who is masturbating, he is masturbating because of you. You have separated men and women so cunningly, particularly in India, that it is impossible to have any contact. And if a man is a bachelor -- and he has to be a bachelor at least from fourteen to twenty-four, twenty-five years of age, and those are the most potential times. Nearabout eighteen he is at the highest peak of sexual energy, he will never again be so potent. Now what do you want him to do?"

In the hostels he is bound to become a homosexual. If he is a poor man, he may start making love to animals. Or if nothing else is possible, he may masturbate. If he is afraid -- because that can lead to madness

-- he may not masturbate, but his semen will be released in sleep. It cannot remain inside.

Even Mahatma Gandhi at the age of seventy was having wet dreams, so what to say of others? And he was certainly a sincere man. Wrong about everything, but sincere. I never suspect his intentions. I criticize him totally on every single point, but he was a sincere man, honest; whatever he was doing he did it with totality.

Forty years he struggled to remain celibate, and the only result was that he was having wet dreams.

Certainly he would not become a homosexual, he would not make love to animals, he would not masturbate, because he believed that unless sexual energy is controlled your spirituality remains imperfect.

That was the ancient idea that he was following blindly, without asking a relevant question: if you cannot control urination, how can you control your semen, which is being produced by you, by your body?

And the body knows nothing about celibacy, there is no way to give the idea of celibacy to the body... so now there is no need to produce any sexual energy. There is no communication between the mind and the body in that way. These people have dominated humanity and given them idiotic ideas. One may ask why all these people gave the same idiotic ideas. There is a reason.

The reason is to make spirituality a great challenge. The only way was to make man repress something which he cannot repress.

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deny God, heaven, and hell? Those who are celibate are talking about experiencing God, realizing God, seeing God, even bringing messages from God. Give some idea which is impossible for humanity to do, so only hypocrites, cunning people will be able to pretend....

That's why there is a similarity in all the religions. Of one thing everybody was aware: life depends on reproduction. And life will not allow the power of reproduction to be given into the hands of individuals, because it is the most important thing. Individuals come and go, the river of life should continue. Hence sex is not within human power.

Once this was known -- and it was simple to know -- then all the religions exploited humanity with it.

And it gave such good returns. Tell people that celibacy is spiritual, then these are the results that will follow: one, everybody becomes guilty. And the guilty person is gullible, the guilty person wants to get rid of his guilt. He does not bother whether God exists or not, what he wants is to be freed from guilt. Then use God as the compassionate one, the ultimate forgiver; you just have to confess to his priest. Open your heart and confess your guilt, and you will be forgiven. They have created a very fictitious circle.

A false principle of celibacy creates guilt. The guilty person feels burdened, he needs to be unburdened, and if God can help, if the Holy Bible can help, if the priest can help.... He is willing to accept all of them because the feeling of guilt is tremendously painful. You fall down in your own eyes. You lose all respect for yourself

So it was easy for them to impose any fictitious ideas, and the guilty person cannot ask a question, because he is afraid if he asks questions and does not have faith, what is going to happen to his guilt, which he is accumulating every day, which is becoming bigger and bigger, a Himayalan load on his soul? He is ready to accept anything to get rid of this burden.

So it was easy for the priests, for the religious leaders, to impose ideas of God, heaven, and hell, or anything. Different religions have used different things, but the basic secret is the same.

Because he cannot follow celibacy he will become perverted. And to make man perverted means you have made him destroy his own individuality, freedom, his basic right to be proud of himself as a living, conscious being. Perverted, you have driven him into dark holes which lead nowhere. Every perversion leads to another perversion, because no perversion can be satisfying.

Natural sex can be satisfying, but perverted sex is unable to satisfy because nature has no provision for it. You can eat through your mouth -- nature has made that provision -- but if you start eating through your nose, then of course there will be difficulties. Nature has not made your teeth in your nose. Nature has no idea what kind of pervert you are going to be.

So no perversion is ever able to satisfy. Each perversion leads into another perversion; perhaps if this is not satisfying, the other one may be. And you go on farther and farther away from your natural instinct, which is the only place where you can get satisfaction, where you can relax and you can lose the tenseness of your being. But that is prohibited by your religion as sin.

This is a very cunning strategy. That's why when I say all these people have committed crimes against humanity, people get shocked because they don't understand what I mean about what these people have done. They have sown the seeds of all kinds of psychological diseases.

They have sown the seeds for poverty to remain in the world. They have consoled the poor. They have not allowed humanity to explore the material resources which are made available by life. Naturally, people have remained poor. For centuries how many million people have died, just because there was no food, no water? It is really a shame upon us all that it has been allowed, and it is being allowed still. Still nobody is raising his hand against these criminals who go on preaching against birth control, abortion....

They are respected people, they are doing great service to life. That's how they present the case.

"Abortion is killing life" -- but for abortion they are responsible because they prevented the pill. You did not allow people to use the birth control methods. Now the child is there, and the only possibility is either to abort the child or to have the child.

One has to look into the strategies. First you condemn birth control -- it is against God. If God wants to send more people to the earth, you should not prevent it. Now any intelligent person can say, "If God wants to send more people to the earth, then he should have a look at the earth."

It is already overpopulated; people are dying in thousands per day. Soon it will be more than five thousand per day. Can't God see? Is he blind? He cannot understand a simple thing, that so many people are dying of starvation now, there is no need to send more people to the earth.

And there are so many planets, millions of planets, millions of solar systems which are empty, lifeless, dead. Any sensible person would like to make other planets living, alive. And if your God can create the 1/08/07

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world, he can do anything. If the planet does not have water, he can send water, create water. If the planet does not have the right conditions for life, he can create them. He has created them. What is the point of having millions and millions of dead planets, and sending people here? Finally, these people will be the cause of the death of the whole planet.

The pope is concerned about one person's life, and he is responsible for abortion, all the abortions.

Religious people are responsible for it because they are not allowing birth control methods. If birth control methods are applied, the question of abortion will not arise at all.

And why should you be worried? If the pill can manage, and your God cannot do anything against the pill, certainly the pill should be worshipped from now on. God is impotent against the pill. In every church and temple and mosque you should keep bottles of pills to worship. That seems to be reasonable, because this pill is so powerful that the omnipotent God cannot do anything about it.

So rather than doing the rational thing -- worshipping the pill -- these people are still roaming around telling people to give birth. Not to give birth is against God. They don't know anything about God. Nobody has known anything about God ever.

It is such a foolish notion, but we are reaping the crop of thousands of years of stupid religious leaders.

Poverty is there, sickness is there, perversion is there, which has culminated in AIDS. And it is strange that the pope is not proposing anything to prevent AIDS.

On the contrary, he is saying, and his followers are saying that it is a punishment against the homosexuals, as if the homosexuals have suddenly existed only in this last part of the twentieth century.

Homosexuals have been here since the very beginning. And for thousands of years God never bothered about homosexuals, never punished them. In fact, most of the homosexuals were in the monasteries, spiritual leaders, spiritual guides to people. It took so many thousand years for God to make the decision that now homosexuals should be punished. This God seems to have a great bureaucracy. The file has been moving for thousands of years, and now comes the judgment.

And in the first place you create the homosexual, you create the perversion. If AIDS is going to be the punishment, then all the priests and the bishops and the cardinals and the rabbis and the Hindu monks and the Buddhist monks, these should be the people to suffer from AIDS, because they are the causes of it. This is very unfair. There is no justice behind it: victims are being punished, and the people who created the whole phenomenon will be rewarded in paradise.

From many directions these things have gathered to a point where either people have to listen to me or they have to accept global suicide. So it is not just a theoretical question anymore, it is something existential. That's why I think whether anybody understands or not, the world situation itself is forcing the intelligentsia to understand it clearly. They will have to understand it!

And there is nobody else who is giving any alternative, because nobody has the guts to accept all the condemnation that will come. But I am immune to condemnation, because except condemnation nothing has ever come to me. So it does not bother me at all. I have not lost a single moment's sleep for it. I have never thought about it.

I have gone on saying whatsoever feels right to me. Nobody has answered me in these thirty years, but everybody from every religion, from every political ideology, has condemned me. They have given no argument against my argument, nor have been able to propose another alternative.

If they propose a better alternative I will be the first one to accept it, because it is not a question of me or you; it is a question of the whole life of the planet: centuries of painting and poetry, centuries of music, of literature, of philosophy, of high flights of intelligence, logic, and reason.

Everything would be simply erased. Life was doing such a tremendously important experiment here, and the whole universe around dead. This small earth may be very small in size, but in significance this is the most significant planet in the whole universe, because this is the only planet which has not only life, but has consciousness. Not only consciousness, but it has reached in a few people to the ultimate flowering of consciousness I call enlightenment.

It should not be destroyed. It took millions of years for life to grow to such a point where a few people at least can become enlightened. We can hope that if life survives, a day will come when we have many, many people enlightened, and perhaps one day the whole humanity. That day will be the greatest day in the history of the universe, when the whole planet is enlightened.

That's why I am so certain that they will have to accept it. They will have to understand it, even against their will. Otherwise they have to choose a global suicide.

So I am in a very fine position, because the alternative is such that nobody is going to choose it. We just 1/08/07

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have to make it clear to the world what the alternatives are, that these are the two alternatives. Your old world, your old ideologies have brought you to the climax where life cannot continue any more. We are not at all rooted in the past. We have only future, no past. You have only past and no future.

We have to make it clear to them that what we are doing is creating a new man, because the old man has failed, utterly failed. All his efforts have led nowhere. And at least when you are dying, let us, give us a chance. At the most we may also be failures, that's the worst that can happen. But you will not be a loser anyway-you were going to die. So we have to make the whole world aware that we are proposing an alternative to the old rotten structure which is dying, every day dying and coming closer to final death.

Before it dies we can save the intelligent group of young people from this dying structure. If the old people are too old and cannot change, nothing to be worried about -- they were going to die anyway -- but the whole humanity should not die with them.

If we can save only the youth around the world, that's enough. Just Adam and Eve created the whole world. If we can save the youth, we can repopulate the world with new beings, higher in every possible way, better in every possible way. And we will not commit the same mistakes that have been committed in the past.

Q: BHAGWAN, HOW CAN PEOPLE TURN THE HUMAN PHENOMENON OF FALLING IN LOVE

INTO A MEDITATION?

A: It is the easiest way. In human life, love is the closest phenomenon to meditation. The moment you fall in love with someone, what actually happens? What transpires between those two who have fallen in love with each other? They drop their egos -- at least for each other. They drop their hypocrisies, their masks. They want to be together, almost one soul within two bodies. That's the desire of love.

And this is a beautiful moment to change it into a meditation. Just nobody has ever told them. In fact, just the opposite has been told to them: that love is against meditation, so people who are falling in love can never become meditators.

The same people who make celibacy spiritual make love unspiritual, something dirty, condemned. But to me things are totally different. Love helps you to relax, which is part of meditation. Love helps you to be joyous, which is part of meditation. Love helps you, for a few moments at least, to be silent, which is the essential part of meditation. And finally, making love, if you attain to an orgasmic experience, gives you a glimpse of what meditation is, but it is millions of times more than this.

So to me love is a basic experience which can help you to become meditators. The old religions have been preventing it, and they have been preventing it for a certain reason. If people can transform their love into meditation, then the priests and the churches and the synagogues are no more needed, then people are totally free. No spiritual leadership is needed. And there are millions of priests around the world, like parasites on humanity. And naturally they will give you wrong ideas, against love, and they will give you ideas for meditation, but because you don't have the basic experience....

Love is just like when you enter into a swimming pool, step by step you are going into deeper water.

Then the floor of the swimming pool is divided in two parts, one for those who cannot swim, so the water is up to your neck, and then the second part for those who can swim.

But those who want to learn swimming have to learn in the first part, which is not for swimmers. They have to learn it there. Once they have learned, then slowly they will gather courage and enter into deeper water, because for a swimmer it does not matter how deep the water is; the swimmer is always on the surface. The water may be a hundred feet deep, five hundred feet deep, or five miles deep, it makes no difference to the swimmer. It makes a difference only to the non-swimmer. Beyond five feet, everything is death. But the swimming pool is one -- shallow, deep -- it is one. And the boundary line is only a line until you learn to swim.

To me, love and meditation are just like that. Love is the shallow space in a swimming pool, for those who cannot meditate. But that is the place to learn meditation. And it is the same pool, it is the same water, it is the same kind of phenomenon. You are just unable to go deeper because you have been made afraid even to enter into it. The shallow part has been condemned, and you have been told to jump into the deeper part without knowing how to swim.

So they disturbed your love life by condemnation and they disturbed your meditative life by sheer strategy: because you don't know swimming, you cannot go so deep. And you don't have any experience of 1/08/07

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silence, peace, sheer joy, a little bit of ecstasy, something orgasmic -- these will give you the hints how meditation is not a myth. You have tasted it a little bit. It is the same energy field, just you have to go deeper into it.

What actually happens when one couple moves into the realm of orgasmic experience? What actually happens? Every point has to be understood. Time stops. For a moment the pendulum does not move, and that single moment seems to be almost eternity. The two persons are no more two -- for a moment. They have melted into each other. There is no thought in the mind, for a moment. It is all empty and silent, and these are the things which have to be deepened in meditation.

And once you have tasted them, you will be surprised that it does not depend on the other person.

Something happens within you. Something happens within the other person. But it is not dependent. If you can sit silently, if you can manage, by watching your thoughts, to bring a gap, a stop, you will suddenly see time has stopped again. And now it is in your hands, not in the hands of biology. You can keep this time stopped as long as you want. And once you know the secret key....

The key is: no thoughts, no ego, no time -- you just are.

That's why I have never been against love. I have been much condemned for it, naturally, because I was cutting the very roots of the business of all the religions.

Every religion is against me. Their profession depends on condemning love and praising meditation.

They know you cannot attain to meditation, and they know now your love is condemned, it is a sin. You will never experience any orgasmic phenomenon, so meditation will remain just a philosophy, and your life will remain loveless, angry, full of rage, ready to explode at any excuse. Because where will your energy go?

It could have become peace, silence, joy, blissfulness. You did not allow it to become that. That repressed energy turns into poison. That's why everybody is irritable, annoyed, worried, tense. The simple reason is that they have lost the natural source of relaxation.

No animal looks irritated, annoyed, angry, because they don't understand the language the priests speak.

They have never heard that celibacy is spiritual. Of course they cannot attain to meditation, but they are far better than those human beings who could have attained meditative heights, but have lost even the simple biological experience of orgasm.

Those are simply indications of your possibilities, potentialities. And it is easier to experiment with something natural in the beginning and then to try something which is supernatural, which belongs to higher nature.

And once you know how to be silent, how to be thoughtless, how to be in a state of no time, no mind, you experience such orgasmic joy, which has nothing to do with sex, it has such purity and such innocence.

A man who has attained to that purity and innocence has no need of sex. It is no more a psychological problem for him, but there is no prohibition either. He can enjoy sex too, and he will enjoy it more than anybody else, because his orgasm will immediately become meditative.

Having experienced the meditative orgasm -- such a bigger phenomenon -- his sexual orgasm will immediately trigger the bigger orgasm. He can play with sex. There is no harm in it. There is no need, but there is no prohibition either. It is up to him.

The meditative orgasm absorbs your sexual energy, because you don't have any other energy. Your whole energy is sexual energy, and that vast explosion of joy simply absorbs all your energy. Hence, you need not become a pervert, you need not make an effort to remain celibate. It is just your choice.

If you want to play old games once in a while, it is perfectly good. In fact, perhaps it should be a part of every enlightened man's life to have sex once in a while, because that will change the attitude of the whole world about sex.

Without that, it is very difficult to change. Then they can see that even an enlightened person can enjoy sex. There is nothing sin -- like in it. And it will join the enlightened man and unenlightened man in a bridge. At least on one point, both experience the same thing. And the enlightened one can guide the unenlightened to bigger orgasms. Start with this small one, but don't stop here.

Love is a natural kind of meditation. And meditation is a supernatural kind of love.

Q: BHAGWAN, THE PRESS IN COMMUNIST COUNTRIES SEEMS TO MAKE THE SAME

ACCUSATIONS ABOUT YOU AS THE PRESS IN CAPITALIST COUNTRIES DOES. WOULD YOU

COMMENT ON THAT?

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A: They are not basically different. The capitalists and the communists are in the same relationship as father and son. Capitalism is the father, communism is the angry son, a son who has turned hippie. It is a by-product of capitalism.

So first, they are not as antagonistic as it appears. Communism is a state capitalism, that's the only difference. Capitalism allows people to have capital separately, individually. In fact, that too is more of a show than a reality.

For example, half of Oregon's land belongs to the federal government of America. Now what kind of capitalism is this? And they are making efforts to have the federal government own all the land in Oregon.

The politicians' fear of our being here is basically rooted in this point.

Other things are not real. The real idea before we came here was: half the land they already own, and the other half they wanted to purchase from individuals, so they could make Oregon into a nuclear shelter.

That's why they are so much against us, because we are just in the middle of their nuclear shelter. They don't want any stranger here, and we are stranger than strangers can be. In everything we are stranger.

So they want to throw us out of Oregon. They cannot do it because of their hypocrisy. Otherwise their mask will slip down and they will be exposed to the whole world. So they want to do it in such a way that it appears legal, but that is where they are wrong. Legally they cannot do anything against us, because whatever we are doing, we are doing absolutely in accordance with the American Constitution.

It is a strange situation: we are foreigners to them but we are going to fight for THEIR Constitution against them, because they are prostituting it. And their fear is certainly real. They cannot face us in the Supreme Court, and they cannot face us before the world.

And now they have become even more frightened because in four years they have not been able to do anything, and they are losing every case because all their cases are bogus, meaningless, stupid. And they are all against the democratic values of respecting individuals, individual property, respecting freedom, freedom of expression, respecting the minority -- not only respecting, but protecting the minority.

We are the smallest group in America. They cannot find a group which is smaller than us, a commune of just five thousand people. If this is not a minority, then what is? And if the Constitution exists to protect the minority against the majority then the Constitution is in our favor.

If the Constitution stands for individual property, then they should forget completely that Rajneeshpuram can ever be federal government land. If it respects individuals, does not make any discrimination between religions, then their discriminatory behavior against us -- which we can prove with evidence -- is enough to expose their whole conspiracy.

The very approach of our commune is neither communist nor capitalist. Our approach is beyond both, both are out of date. If we have to choose between the two, between communism and capitalism, I will choose capitalism because at least it gives freedom to the individual, freedom of expression, freedom to own things.

It is something tremendously significant to understand, that if all your belongings are taken away from you by the government and they belong to the state, and you are left alone, naked, they have destroyed a major part of your individuality. Your belongings are, in a subtle way, extensions of your individuality: your clothes, your style of wearing those clothes, your house, your furniture, your way of keeping your house clean or unclean, your garden. If everything belongs to the state and nothing belongs to you, you are just a naked animal who has been robbed completely. That is what they do in Soviet Russia.

For example, when Sakharov received the Nobel prize and accepted it against the government's will....

He was the director of the Soviet academy of sciences and is thought to be the most brilliant physicist today, who has gone higher and deeper than Albert Einstein, the best mind alive as far as physics is concerned.

They immediately removed him from his directorship, his car was taken away, his salary was reduced from one thousand rubles to five hundred rubles. His chief called him and told him, "Listen, you are one person in millions of people who has a personal car. To have a personal car in the Soviet Union is a dignity, but you will have to lose it, and you will have to lose the house. You cannot live in this big, beautiful mansion anymore. Your directorship is gone."

And within fifteen days he was sent to Siberia. He is still alive. The best mind in the world is doing nothing. He does not even know that you can change your doing nothing into meditation. He is not aware of it. He will die there, nobody will know when he lived and when he died.

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individuality, made him a member of the common mass. Then they took away the beautiful old czarist mansion and sent him into an ordinary quarter where other laborers live.

Communism is anti-individual. It is basically state capitalism. Everything is owned by the state, but this is only theory, because the state does not exist. State means the clique, the gang, the mafia that is in power.

And for sixty years the same gang has remained in power. People have changed, but the gang has remained the same. If there are twenty people who are powerful in the Soviet Union, those twenty people have remained the same. One dies, and another is replaced by the other nineteen unanimously. That's why the circle remains the same. And anybody who comes to replace someone is chosen by the older group unanimously -- otherwise not.

So for sixty years a small group of people has owned everything in the country. There is no freedom for the press; only the government publishes books, newspapers, magazines. The people cannot even know whether what is printed is true or false. There is no way to compare it. People cannot even listen to radio stations from outside. If they are caught it is a great crime. They can be thrown into jail for five years, ten years. Nobody can even listen to foreign countries. Mostly it is impossible because no foreign country releases information in Russian, and in Russia -- except for a few other small language groups -- only Russian is understood. They cannot understand anything from the outside world. The language is the barrier.

Secondly, if they are caught red-handed they are unnecessarily risking their life for a little information.

Who wants to do that? They cannot read books of their own choice. For example, my books are banned.

And the KGB has been against my sannyasins there, taking all their books, newspapers, photographs, and everything concerning me, and torturing and persecuting and interrogating them continuously to inform about other members, to inform who are the other people connected with this movement who have any other literature.

Now this kind of a society is inhuman. In Russia it is impossible even for Karl Marx to be born again, because he was a free thinker. England allowed him to publish his books against England, against capitalism. Russia would not allow him to publish a book against Russia and against communism. So in these sixty years Russia has not given any geniuses; and this is important to remember, because before the revolution Russia was one of the countries with the most potential for producing geniuses.

The best novelists were Russians. If you make a list of the ten greatest novelists in the whole history of the world, the first five have to be the Russian ones. There is no other way, because they produced the best novels, poetry, painting. All that creativity has been destroyed. In sixty years not a single Turgenev, Chekhov, Gorky, Tolstoy, Dostoevsky. Not a single person comparable to these has been able to assert himself.

The only way for genius to move is towards science, and that too has to remain unknown to the whole world. Sakharov was not known before the Nobel prize was declared. Nobody knew that a man existed who had gone deeper into the physical world than Albert Einstein. Now this man belongs to the whole world. He is not a property of Russia. Genius cannot be a property of any nation, and a genius of such caliber is simply rotting in Siberia. And he is not alone there, there are three other Nobel prize winning scientists. Nobody had ever heard their names till they received the Nobel prize.

Russia does not want anybody outside to know who are the important people in the country, for fear that they may be contacted or bribed, and they think of the Nobel prize as a bribe. So the man becomes world famous, the man goes to Sweden to take the Nobel prize, comes in contact with world media, world scientists, comes to see the outside world and find out that Russia is thousands of years backwards. In Russia he was told that they are living the latest philosophy, communism, and outside they see what is happening, how people are free.

So they don't want anybody to go out of Russia. This Nobel prize becomes an excuse for him to go out.

They refuse, but their refusal makes the man famous around the world. And if he disobeys, he is thrown into jail, thrown into a mental hospital, thrown into Siberia, and then nobody hears anything about him. This is a criminal society.

So if I have to choose between communism and capitalism, I will certainly choose capitalism.

Howsoever hypocritical, howsoever politically dishonest a system it is, it still gives loopholes so individuals can assert themselves, so people can show their minds, can connect with other people around the world.

And even though the politicians may be corrupted, they can be dragged to the courts, which are quite fair --

particularly the Supreme Court, because no politician can do any damage to any judge of the Supreme Court.

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The Constitution provides every protection to the Supreme Court. Once a person is made a judge in the Supreme Court, he is made one for his whole life, so you cannot retire him, you cannot demote him, you cannot punish him, you cannot do anything against him. So he has no fear. He need not be unfair. The Supreme Court of America perhaps is the fairest court in the whole world. It can give judgments against the president without any fear.

But this is if I am given the choice only between the two. Otherwise I have my own idea of a different society. I call it meritocracy. It should not be state ownership, communism. It should not be a cunning, criminal, political system behind the masks of democracy.

Otherwise how do you explain that in a democratic country like America, Nixon is possible? And Nixon reminds me of Mao Tse-tung's remark. When Nixon resigned, Mao Tse-tung could not believe it. He said,

"This is strange. Every politician is doing the same everywhere. I am doing it here. Why are these people so much against it? And why do the courts and the newspapers have so much power?" But Nixon happened.

Perhaps every politician is doing it, Mao is right, but Nixon was caught. Others are not caught.

So I don't want a system in which it is possible for a person like Nixon to reach to the highest post in the country. I do not want a system like in America where twenty percent of the presidents have been murdered, where Kennedy was murdered, where his brother, who was running for the presidency was murdered, and his other brother -- and there are only three brothers -- is threatened that if he runs for the presidency, he will be assassinated.

The poor woman, the mother of these three Kennedys, is ninety years old. She has seen the death of two sons*-young, immensely intelligent. She knows the third has the capacity to become president, but she has taken a promise from the third: "While I am alive, you should not run, because it will be too much. I have suffered too much: the two deaths of my two sons. You are my last son, I would not like you dead before my eyes. Let me first die, then you are free, you can run for president."

Now this kind of country, where criminals are ruling and people who can do immense good for the country are prevented.... Who is preventing them? Who killed the two Kennedys? Who is threatening the third one? And why are they not killing Jimmy Carter or Ronald Reagan? Nobody bothers. But it is simple: anybody, any group, any gang, who has killed the Kennedys is somehow connected with Ronald Reagan, with Nixon.

Nixon did everything wrong and he was not shot, and Kennedy was not doing anything wrong. In fact, because he was trying to do something good, he was shot. This is a very corrupted state of affairs.

My political system is totally different. I call it meritocracy, because it will depend on merit. It will not be a political system, it will not have any political parties. People will be running for posts on their own merit. And each individual will decide on his own, because no political party will be pressurizing him.

There will be no political party at all -- individual to individual -- no gang will be allowed.

And anybody who is chosen is chosen because of his merit. If you choose a secretary for finance, then you will choose the best economist in your country.

This does not happen at all. People who don't know anything of economics become finance secretaries, ministers. People who don't know anything about education become education ministers. In India I knew a man who was just an idiot. He knew nothing about medicine and he became the health minister. In a meritocracy this type of man can never become a health minister, because there will be more qualified people running for the post. Vice-chancellors who have an experience of the whole of life will be standing for the post of the education minister.

No political parties, because they pressurize. They accumulate money, they gather people into a certain group, make them faithful to a certain ideology, almost like religion. Political parties are dangerous just as religions are dangerous. I want religion to be individual. It is an individual search for truth, and politics is an individual search for a better society, better culture.

In meritocracy, my idea is to have communes rather than cities, communes rather than families. Families should dissolve, pour all their energies into one pool. Big cities should become divided into small communes, running their affairs on their own. The whole country becomes a country of communes, not of cities.

These communes will not enforce any kind of equality, which is being done in communist countries. But on the contrary, these communes will try to become as wealthy as possible, so the wealth is more than enough, more than needed. And everybody can have according to his need. I believe in abundance, I don't believe in poverty.

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opportunity. Wealthy communes -- still no enforcement of equality, although without enforcement, out of love and compassion and friendship there will arise a different kind of equality. Nobody will think about it.

Now here everybody is eating the same food, equal. But we are not bragging that this is communism.

This is simply human, that everybody who is here is part, an essential part of the commune, and should receive the same food, should receive, as far as possible, everything that he needs: medical care, recreation, entertainment.

But this is not forced. It has to come by itself Just as there is enough air -- nobody keeps it locked inside the house because sometimes air may be scarce and he may die of the scarcity of oxygen, so he should keep something stored. There is enough air. In the same way, there should be more than enough of everything available to everybody, without any discrimination: no political party, no religious party. Communes --

living out of love, no families, no equality imposed, but an equality coming on its own, just out of sheer love and brotherhood.

And finally, no crime should be punished. Every crime should be treated as a disease, a sickness of the mind.

And if meritocracy spreads all over the world, there is no need for nations. If you can have the best mind to be the education minister of the whole world, then why have a third-class mind just because he happens to be an Oregonian or American?

All that is essential -- academic institutions, scientific academies, art, everything that is useful -- should be international. Its branches can be all over the world, but it should be in the hands of the best people, the geniuses.

It is really amazing that an art school will exist, but Picasso will not be accepted as the director of it.

They will accept his painting for millions of dollars, and somebody who is not known by anybody, not a single painting of his has been sold or exhibited in any exhibition, remains the director of the art institute, just because he has a degree, knowledgeability. But painting does not depend on knowledgeability.

Otherwise, Mozart cannot be a director of a music institute, Nijinsky cannot be a director a dance institute, because these people have no knowledge, no degrees. But they have merit. They have experience, they have the magic, the charisma.

All the institutions of the world should be in the hands of charismatic people. There are always enough charismatic people, but they are not allowed in the competition, for many reasons. These charismatic people are rebellious, so they rarely manage to get a university degree. Long before, they are expelled.

These charismatic people know too much, no institution can teach them any more, so there is no point in joining those institutions and wasting time. But then they cannot become directors. It is an ugly world, because we should like people like Mozart to be music directors. They will encourage their students to imbibe the spirit of music. Their third-rate students will be thrown out, and one who is accepted by Mozart has already got the degree, by his acceptance, by his entrance.

So my vision is the whole world finally becoming a meritocracy, but before the world becomes a meritocracy, nations should begin. Meritocracy will have all that is beautiful in democracy and all that is beautiful in communism. And it will not have all that is ugly in communism and all that is ugly and phony in democracy.

And it is time to give a chance to something new.

Okay, Isabel.

The Last Testament, Vol 2

Chapter #22

Chapter title: None

12 September 1985 pm in Jesus Grove

Archive code: 8509125

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ShortTitle: LAST222

Audio:

Yes

Video:

Yes

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

INTERVIEW WITH BUNTE, OFFENBURG, WEST GERMANY

QUESTION: BHAGWAN, SINCE WHEN HAVE YOU BEEN AWARE OF THE DANGERS OF AIDS?

ANSWER: It was going to happen some day.... It is something to do with how life functions. Life functions through polarities. The opposite poles create the tension for life. Life is a tension, death is a relaxation.

It is just like the positive electricity and negative electricity: if both are not together there will not be any electricity. So in existence, opposites are really not opposites, but complementaries. The same is the case with bioenergy: man and woman are positive and negative poles. Their meeting is the meeting of positive and negative energy. It is creative, of life.

So even before AIDS became known, I was aware that homosexuality is spreading fastly -- sooner or later something very dangerous is going to happen, because homosexuality means there is no tension; man and man are the same poles. They can only create death, not life.

I have always been telling people to move to their natural, biological sex relationships -- man to woman.

But about AIDS I became aware just last year, that it has come of which I was always afraid. It was bound to come sooner or later. It is a by-product of homosexuality. And homosexuality is a religious disease: anybody responsible for it are the founders of all the religions. They have committed this crime, perhaps unknowingly, because first they asked people that celibacy is something spiritual, which is sheer nonsense.

Celibacy is impossible. Nobody has ever been a celibate... unless he was impotent. But the most wondering thing is that the impotent people have not contributed anything to human progress, evolution --

they have never been creative. They are just hollow, they have no potency to create.

The religious people were teaching a forced impotency which is against biology. And whatever your ideology may be, there is no way to convey the ideology to your ideology may be, there is no way to convey the ideology to your physiology, biology, your chemistry -- there is no way. Once you have eaten the food, you cannot tell your stomach what to do with it. And it is good that it is beyond your control. Once you have swallowed it, it is beyond your control. Your body knows perfectly well what to do with it.

You may take the vow of celibacy, but your biology is not even aware that you are a Christian monk or a Hindu monk or a Buddhist monk; your biology goes on functioning the same way as before. It goes on creating male sperms in you, in millions, because nature depends on your being not a celibate. It is good that Buddha's father was not celibate! It is good that Mohammed's father was not celibate! If these people had been celibate, the world would have missed two very colorful people.

Nature wants you to be alive, hence the basic elements in your life -- for example, breathing -- nature has kept in its own control. It is not on you to breathe or not to breathe, otherwise sometimes you may forget. In sleep you are bound to forget and then in the morning there will be nobody to breathe. So breathing, no one can say, "I am doing it." It is existence that breathes in and out, and you are not in control of it, because breathing is so essential for your life -- it cannot be left in your unconscious hands.

What is breathing to a single individual, is reproduction to the race. Individuals come and go, but humanity has to continue. Life has to continue. It cannot depend on individuals' decision, because they are only temporary. They will be here for a time being; their decisions cannot be of any value.

So celibacy, sexual energy, the power to reproduce, has been kept in the hands of life itself. You cannot do anything about it.

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Q: YOU SAID BEFORE THAT THIS WAS SOMETHING THAT HAD TO HAPPEN SOONER OR

LATER.

A: Yes.

Q: WHY NOT IN THE FIFTIES, WHY NOT IN THE SIXTIES OR SEVENTIES? WHY RIGHT NOW?

A: There are reasons.... First, everything has to reach to a particular climax. You don't ask why the water evaporates at hundred centigrade degrees -- why not at ninety-eight and why not at ninety, and why not at hundred and one? It is simply something that is not in our hands. Everything happens at a certain point, at a certain climax, and there is no reason why, because there is nobody to answer it.

No scientist can answer it, why water evaporates at hundred degrees -- there is no reason! It could have been ninety-nine. And there is nobody to ask about. We have to accept it as a fundamental law of existence.

About homosexuality, why it did not happen in sixties, fifties, is pointless, because if it had happened in sixties, you would have asked the same question then too -- why it did not happen in forties? It is irrelevant.

Whenever it has happened, that means now it has touched the evaporating point.

Q: AND DO YOU FEEL THAT HOMOSEXUALS WERE THE FIRST TO SUFFER BECAUSE THEIR

UNNATURAL WAY WOULD LEAVE THEM MOST SUSCEPTIBLE? IS THAT SOMETHING THAT

MIGHT NATURALLY OR LOGICALLY FOLLOW?

A: It will logically follow, because what they are doing is absolutely perverted. And the consequence is going to be something not a disease -- because I don't call AIDS a disease -- it is just a slow death.

A disease is curable. Death is the only phenomenon which is incurable. And now the scientists all over the world have accepted the fact that there is no cure for AIDS. So AIDS is no more a disease; it is death, just slow death.

Q: YOU SAID IN DISCOURSE A FEW DAYS AGO THAT AIDS IS NOT A DISEASE, IT IS DEATH, THAT THE SCIENTISTS SAY THERE WILL NEVER BE A CURE -- DON'T YOU FEEL THIS IS QUITE

NEGATIVE STATEMENT OR ACCESSMENT, JUST AS A HUNDRED YEARS AGO PEOPLE SAID THAT

MAN WOULD NEVER FLY, LET ALONE SET FOOT ON THE MOON?

A: No, it is not so. That was simply ignorance and the people who said it simply said it because it has not happened before.

Q: BUT COULDN'T YOU SAY THE SAME THING ABOUT A CURE FOR AIDS?

A: No. Because if you understand the situation of AIDS, the situation is that it is not any disease that needs any medicine, any operation. It is really the death of will to live. Deep down the person has lost his will to live and there is no medicine which can create will to live.

Q: I HAD HEARD THAT YOU HAD SAID THIS, MOSTLY AS IT PERTAINED TO HOMOSEXUALS, THAT THERE WAS A LOSS OF POLARITY IN THEIR LIVES, BUT HOW ABOUT THOSE WHO ARE

UNWITTINGLY INFECTED, FROM HOMOSEXUALS, NORMAL HETEROSEXUAL PEOPLE? I WOULD

HATE TO BE INFECTED FROM SOME KIND OF CONTACT WITH A HOMOSEXUAL, BUT I WOULD

HAVE THAT WILL TO SURVIVE -- WOULD MY WILL TO WANT TO SURVIVE HELP ME?

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A: I don't think, because the will to death is far more powerful than the will to survive. Ordinarily just the opposite is the case: your will to death remains dormant and your will to survive and live remains active.

If you become infected from somebody whose will to live has died, and will to die has become the dominant factor, he will provoke your will to die which is very powerful because it has been dormant and never active.

Your will to live is exhausted, tired; you may like to live, but you have been using that will, that energy, that power. You have Your will to live is exhausted, tired; you may like to live, but you have been using that will, that energy, that power. You have never used your will to die. That has remained there dormant, underneath. In fact Sigmund Freud was the first man to discover that man has a wish for death. Before him it was not even a known fact that there is something like will to die.

You can become infected only because your will to die is so powerfully there, ready to explode -- just a small infection is needed to make it creative -- and it will spread fast and your will to life is exhausted, tired, old, spent. It is almost hoping against hope that there will be some way to survive once you are positively an AIDS patient.

What actually it does when the will to live disappears: you become vulnerable to every kind of disease.

Ordinarily, whenever a disease attacks you, your body, your will to live, creates antibodies to fight with it.

But when the will to live is almost dead or dying or is fighting for its own survival -- and instead of will to live on the throne is will to die -- then any infection is welcome. No antibodies will be created in you.

This is the problem that your body is no more fighting against any infection.

Q: SO THEN THIS COMMUNITY, IT SEEMS, IS THE ONLY ONE IN THE WORLD THAT'S GOING

OUT OF ITS WAY TO TO AVOID IT?

A: Certainly. It is only the unique community. And we are trying the same methods around the world in our other communes. And anybody who really wants to save himself, our communities will be the shelters.

Q: SO YOU ARE SUGGESTING THAT THE WILL OF THE WORLD IS IN A SENSE LOOKING TO

DIE?

A: The whole world in fact is not only through AIDS -- that is only one side of the story. The other side is that the world itself is preparing for a global death. So the attack is double: from the individual, every individual is preparing for death, and the nations and the countries and the politicians, they are preparing for nuclear weapons. We are in a very unique times, pressed from every side for self-destruction.

Unless something helps people to rejoice in life, to dance and sing and love -- which religions have crippled, that's why I say they are the criminals.... They have been all against life, in some way or other, more or less. They want to renounce this life in favor of a future life after death. They don't want you to enjoy, they don't want you to laugh, they don't want you to dance, they don't want you to eat, tastefully, they don't want you to drink -- they don't want you to do anything that gives you joy! They want you to do things which are boring, utterly futile, stupid yoga exercises in which you are just torturing your body unnecessarily -- there is no need, nothing is going to be gained by it. Fasting is religious, feasting is not, and if you can fast long you become a great saint -- and all that you have done is repress your natural hunger.

Everything that makes life worth living has been condemned. Poverty has been praised, comfort has been condemned. For thousands of years these people have been preparing you against life. My effort in the communes is to revive your will to live and to rejoice in it without any guilt.

In Indian religions there are five basic principles. The first is aswath; it means tastelessness -- you should eat but you should not enjoy the taste. If you enjoy the taste, you are committing a sin. Now this type of teaching is going to destroy people in both ways: if they enjoy the taste they feel guilty and that becomes a wound, if they don't enjoy the taste of food much joy of their life is lost.

The second is celibacy, because food and sex are very deeply connected. Food keeps you alive and sex keeps the race alive. So the second is sex -- remain celibate. Now a person who cannot remain celibate --

and nobody can -- is bound to become frustrated, perverted, guilty, feel himself a sinner. Life becomes a sin.

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Adam and Eve committed the original sin and you are their generations and you are still carrying the same sin." Very strange! We don't know when Adam and Eve were there, whether they were there ever or not, whether it is just a myth or a reality. And in fact, what they committed I cannot see there was any sin in it.

To try to know... to become wise is a sin! -- then what is virtue? Those poor fellows, just ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge -- that is a sin -- and they were going to eat the fruit of eternal life, but prevented and thrown out of heaven. What is sin in being eternally alive? The biblical story is significant: religions don't want people to be wise, they don't want people to live. There is somewhere, deep down, a support for your will for death, from God himself, from the biblical story.

If life is sin and it has been told continuously for thousands of years, slowly, slowly, it has penetrated your unconscious -- one thing. Second thing, all the religions have forced people, if you cannot be a celibate, then get married and monogamy has been the rule. Now it is something unnatural. One gets fed up of everything if every day you have to eat the same food, every day three times the same food -- how long you can remain unbored? Soon you will be bored. With the woman you are tied, you cannot say if you are bored, but in every action, in every word, in every reaction, it will be there. And so is the case with the woman: she is bored with you but she is dependent -- financially dependent -- she had been prevented from education, she has children to look after.... So you are tied. Naturally, this is not... marriage is not a natural institution. It is a forced institution.

Man would love to change women, women would love to change men. And then they will be more rejoicing, more loving, and more wanting to live as long as possible.

Marriage has killed their sexual joy, celibacy has made them perverted, homosexuals. Marriage also has played some part in making people homosexuals, because their woman will not tolerate them even to look at another woman -- but as far as boys are concerned, they can go together, there is no problem. The woman is not aware that they will be doing the same nasty things!

Religion created marriage, religion created celibacy, and both created perverted sexuality. In my commune marriage is just a legal game, because idiots are holding the power, so okay -- just play according to their rules, but remember that it is unnatural.

Q: I WAS UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT YOU'RE ENCOURAGING MARRIAGE AMONGST

PEOPLE TOO.

A: No.

Q: ESPECIALLY IN THE LIGHT OF THE, THE PROBLEM WITH AIDS AND SO FORTH, THAT

PEOPLE BECOME CLOSER AND WITH ONE PERSON? NO.

A: I don't encourage marriage because marriage means boredom.

Q: SO IT'S A LEGAL GAME?

A: So just legally they can be married, but spiritually they should be free, and they should be moving.

And the basic religious teaching should be: drop jealousy and allow freedom -- to anybody you love. It is your duty to make him happy and joyous. If he is becoming bored, it is good for both of you to be free.

Remain legally married -- no harm. If fools are making rules and they are in power, nothing can be done about it, but we can find out a way. Any intelligent person is able to find out a way.

In my commune marriage is just a game, otherwise whomsoever wants, whomsoever, they are free... and no prevention, that's why they are so joyous, because they are not bored -- every day a new dish! If they learn Chinese, Japanese.... Every day a new restaurant! And in fact, it is human! If the husband is happy, if the wife is happy, perhaps once in a week they can be again in a deep love without being bored. It is better to have one time once a week authentic love than to have seven days just boredom and no love at all. And the person who is keeping you bored, you are bound to hate and you are bound to hate yourself also, that you are such a coward that you cannot get out of this imprisonment.

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So marriage has helped homosexuality, because the women won't suspect it. Celibacy has created homosexuality in the monasteries -- in Buddhists in Christians, in Jainas, in Hindus -- everywhere. And all this has come to a point because anything that is unnatural can never give you contentment. That can be taken as a fundamental law: anything unnatural cannot give you contentment; it will only give you frustration.

So man moved into homosexuality, naturally women followed, because they are now for equality, into lesbianism. Both are frustrated, but women are less frustrated for the simple reason because this freedom of lesbianism is a very new thing. Only very few women in the past has been lesbians -- only nuns -- but now it is widespread. Every intelligent woman once in a while tried it, and I don't think that there is any harm once in a while to try something new. It simply shows you are an intelligent being. Only retarded people can remain contented with the same thing their whole life.

The more intelligent you are, the more freedom you need, otherwise you will become frustrated. But anything that is unnatural is going to create frustration also. Natural courses have been condemned and poisoned by religions, unnatural perversions lead nowhere -- you lose the desire to live. That's the reason why in Europe a school of philosophy -- existentialism -- arose.

Existentialism is a philosophical analysis of this whole human situation: that there is no meaning in life, that there is only anxiety, boredom, anguish, despair, and suicide is the only way out. According to existentialism, suicide becomes the only way out of this nightmare that you call life. That was a philosophical expression; AIDS is a biological expression of the same thing.

In my commune I am trying in every possible way to introduce my people again to the natural flow of life, with no condemnation, no idea of sin, no punishment in hell, no reward in heaven, no God in existence, and they have to decide their life. There are no ultimate laws about marriage or about anything. They are all just convenient ways: if you find it convenient, good; if you don't find it convenient, don't stay a single moment in the bondage.... And we are teaching them something which the whole humanity needs: meditation.

Meditation leads you to your innermost core of life. You are alive, you may have lost even the will to live, but still you are alive, and there is a small flame of life still in you. If you can reach to that small flame, it can flare up again. If you can become consciously aware of that flame, things can change, totally change.

Q: MY FEELING IS THAT SANNYASINS DON'T FEAR DEATH, SO WHY FEAR AIDS AND ARE YOU

NOT...?

A: We are not fearing AIDS. There is no question of any fear. When you are going on the way and you find a rock, and you bypass it, does it mean you fear the rock -- you have to stumble on it to prove that you don't fear? We are not fearing AIDS -- just we see it on the way and people are stumbling on it -- and we are making our people not to stumble. There is nothing to be afraid of it. There is no reason for my people to be afraid of it.

Q: HOW HAS IT AFFECTED THE QUALITY OF LIFE HERE?... I HAVE A FEELING THE QUALITY

OF LIFE IS NOT QUITE THE SAME, NOW, THAT THERE IS THIS AVOIDANCE OF DEATH.

A: No. The quality is better. It is not the same -- that's true. The quality is better because people are more responsible, and people are not only responsible towards their own life; they are also responsible not to affect anybody's life. Their life quality is enhanced -- and when the whole world will be in the ditch of death and they will be still dancing and laughing -- and they will see that if they had not been able to take all those precautions, this laughter would not have been possible.

You cannot find people anywhere who are more joyous and more laughing and dancing and happy, and more hard working at the same time. Even God got tired by the sixth day. My people work seven days!

Q: I THOUGHT GOD DIDN'T EXIST?

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A: He does not exist, but as far as the story goes, he got tired.... So whenever I want to make a joke of him, I accept the story -- I don't accept the God!...

I can make use of any story without any difficulty.

Q: OKAY. YOU'VE ALSO SAID IN DISCOURSE THAT NO CHILDREN HAVE BEEN BORN HERE IN

FOUR YEARS. AND THAT THE WORLD IS NOW NOT A GOOD PLACE TO BRING A CHILD INTO.

ISN'T THE CHILD AN OPPORTUNITY TO REEDUCATE, RENEW AND REPLACE THE OLD WAYS....

IN A COMMUNE SUCH AS THIS, WHERE YOU ARE GOING TO GREAT LENGTHS TO FILTER OUT

THE SICK THROUGH AWARENESS, THE GREATEST OPPORTUNITY EXISTS TO BRING IN NEW

GENERATIONS OF PHYSICALLY HEALTHY AND SPIRITUALLY PURE INDIVIDUALS.

A: We will do that, but the time is not right yet. I have to prepare my people. Once my people are ready

-- they have all the comforts, they have all the educational systems, they have everything that the children will need -- because in my commune the children will be of the commune; there is no family fixation.

Father and mother can be loving to their child, but the child will be part of the commune, not a separate family from others.

So all male will be his uncles and all females will be her, his aunts, and he will be welcome in every place and every home, and wherever he wants he can move, wherever he wants to live he can live, with whomsoever he wants to live he can live. I have to prepare my people first, and once my people are ready, you are right: I am not going to repair rotten bones; I will create my own people.

And I am heading towards that, but my ways of creating the people are going to be different. They are not going to be the old way. The old way has failed. It was accidental. My people are going to be more scientific about it.

For example, no couple is free to bring an accidental child into the commune. He has to get the permission of the medical board, and if the, when the medical board suggests that their child will not be something unique -- will be just ordinary, mediocre mortal the whole world is full of -- then the best way will be that the woman gets artificial insemination. So, he can find the best male sperm in the commune and introduce. And in fact, it is easier; the natural way is really a strange way.

I had been a competitor only in one race and that was when I met my mother's egg! That was the only race in which I was a participant -- but the race was tremendous! One million participants, and if you compare with my size, the small passage that they had to move was two miles. They are so small -- male sperms -- and one million male sperms rushing towards the female egg.... And I am a lazy person! I decided once for all that put your whole energy and reach the egg somehow, because then your whole life you can rest and relax!

So I have done every competition, every race -- even before my birth I was finished with competition and race. Out of one million sperms, who is going to be who? -- is very difficult. But now, methods are possible which can decide: in these one million people there may be few Albert Einsteins, few Rabindranath Tagores, few Mozarts, few Hegels, Kants -- one million is a big quantity.

Q: WHAT ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF USING YOUR SPERM?

A: I will not allow it... for the simple reason because even if you become enlightened, your sperms don't become enlightened! And I am not going to give birth to an unenlightened child!

Q: WELL, WOULD THERE BE THE POSSIBILITY OF A HIGHER LIKELIHOOD THAT YOUR

OFFSPRING...?

A: No. The biologist's(?) biology remains completely unaffected by your enlightenment.

Q: WELL, WHAT ABOUT THEN, JUST YOUR INTELLIGENCE? YOU HAVE AN INTELLIGENCE

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LEVEL THAT IS QUITE HIGH....

A: No. It's another thing to be an enlightened master....

Q: BUT YOU SPOKE BEFORE OF, OF HAVING A NEW GENERATION HERE, THAT YOU'RE

PLANNING FOR THAT, YOU SPEAK OF OTHER GREAT MEN, THEN AGAIN, WHY NOT YOUR OWN?

A: I am planning for that and I have intelligence enough to find more intelligent people than me. But I am an ordinary man with no special talent.... If we need a physicist, then Albert Einstein will be better or Sakharov will be better. If we need a painter then Picasso will be better or van Gogh will be better. So, include me out!

Q: DO YOU THINK PEOPLE WILL BE DISAPPOINTED?

A: No. They will not be disappointed. They will be disappointed if I give birth to a child and he proves an idiot! They will be happy that I don't leave any trace which is below me. And there is no way to make the sperms enlightened before their birth! So it is better not to take the risk.

Q: WHAT KIND OF PROTECTIVE MEASURES HAS THE COMMUNITY INSTITUTED TO CURB

THE AIDS THREAT? AND SHOULD THE PROBLEM BECOME LARGER, WHAT FUTURE MEASURES

MAY BE TAKEN?

A: Very simple. The first is that the commune members should be respectful, loving, compassionate, to anybody who is found to be suffering from AIDS. That has to be their basic attitude, because that is what will be the problem in the outside world: once a person is known as having AIDS, he will be a condemned person -- by his own family, children, parents, wife, friends -- everywhere he will be an outcast.

So people are keeping the information repressed. Many more people are suffering from AIDS than are known, but it is human, because the moment people come to know, you are condemned in everybody's eyes.

So this is the first thing that I am teaching to my people that he is simply a victim -- victim of religious neurotic ideologies, victim of unnatural social institutions like marriage, prostitution. So he is a sufferer and close to death; now don't make him suffer more.

So help him, respect him, don't let him die in indignity. And teach him meditation -- and I am telling my people that he is fortunate in a way, that if he is going to live for two years, now for two years even the richest man cannot afford that much time for meditation: he is one of the richest people in the world. And we will manage his food, his clothes, the best we can, and he should meditate, listen to best music, see films, read novels -- whatever he always wanted to do, let him do. And let him feel that he is loved and respected and there is no discrimination.

There are two persons from the commune and four more have arrived from outside, because in the outside there is no space for them. Even hospitals avoid them, even doctors are afraid. Families don't want them any more. Their jobs are finished. But we have accepted them -- that's perfectly good. We can take care, there is no problem. They can help in their own way. They can edit, they can paint, they can sculpt, or whatsoever they are capable of, they can do. We have managed the most scenic place for them to live.

And as far as sex is concerned, those who have AIDS, they can have sex amongst themselves. It is their responsibility towards the commune who is taking care, giving all respect and love, that they should not in any way affect anybody's life in the commune. And certainly, with such respect and love, it is impossible for them to interfere into anybody's life here. They come to the discourses, they are allowed to move in the commune -- just they have been told not to have any physical contact. And the commune has to take every care that accidentally anything may provoke the thing -- tears can infect you, saliva can infect you, perhaps any liquid coming out of the body of an AIDS victim carries the virus -- so just keep clean, make everything sterilized.

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So even in small things -- in the restaurant, everybody who comes to eat there first has to clean his hands with alcohol and anything that has been used in eating is sterilized after eating. Even a person making a phone call, by chance his saliva may fall on the phone -- so after every phone call, the phone is sprayed with alcohol. In this way we are taking every precaution, that no infection spreads.

Q: DID YOU HELP MAKE THESE DECISIONS, TO IMPLEMENT THESE MEASURES?

A: No, no.

Q: OR THE MEDICAL PEOPLE HERE ONLY....?

A: We have medical people here....

Q: AND DID THEY CONSULT WITH.... BECAUSE CERTAINLY THESE AFFECT THE QUALITY OF

LIFE HERE, THESE NEW MEASURES, AND I SHOULD THINK THAT'S SOMETHING THAT YOU

WOULD ULTIMATELY HAVE A SAY OVER.

A: No. This is the decision of the medical people in the commune, and we have the best medical experts, surgeons, who are capable, and they should take the decisions. And only in the beginning it will look a little odd that your hands have to be sprayed with alcohol, but finally you will find it more hygienic in every way.

Even if AIDS disappears, these arrangements are not going to disappear, because they will prevent other infections too.

So these measurements, when they are new, will seem to affect the life, but the effect will be for the betterment. And not a single sannyasin has complained that he is not feeling good with these things. In fact, every sannyasin is excited that his commune is taking every care -- outside there is nobody to take care of you. This simply shows the carefulness, lovingness, and the commune is an organic unity.

So in every possible way -- people making love should use gloves, should use condoms. In the beginning it looks that this is an unnecessary complication. When you are making love to a woman, in that moment to think of condoms and gloves -- it destroys the whole joy, it seems -- but it is not true. In fact it is better: slower you are, better is the possibility of having an orgasm. It is good that the man is slower -- he has to put the condom, he has to put the gloves. It is good. And it will increase peoples' sensitivity.

When you touch a woman with a gloves on, naturally there is a barrier in the beginning -- the plastic, the rubber, or anything the glove is made of comes in between -- but soon you become accustomed of it and your sensitivity, because you love the woman, spreads out of the glove.

Now it is a well established fact by a Russian scientist who was working with photography and human energy, Kirlian, that each person has a two inch aura or energy around his body. So if you are using a glove, don't be worried -- beyond the glove, two inches aura of your energy is there. It can be photographed and it will be a good chance to feel that aura, otherwise who cares?

Just it is simple a question; just if you come to an aboriginal tribe in India and see naked people, they cannot believe that why you are having coat and suit and all these things and missing life -- the wind, the sun and the contact, direct contact -- but you have never thought about it that you are missing direct contact with existence because of your coat, because of your shoes.

Your contact with existence has taken new dimensions. For example, your contact with existence is ninety, eighty to ninety percent from your eyes. The remaining is from your hands. In fact the whole body sensitivity has become concentrated into certain places: your eyes, your hands, your face. It has not been in any way a loss to humanity, because hands have become immensely powerful.

The eyes have become immensely capable of seeing beauty. Your tongue has become capable of tasting, otherwise buffaloes only eat one kind of grass and they go on chewing the same grass their whole life -- no question of change. Even if you give them another kind of grass they will not eat. They are not bored. Their tongues don't have the taste buds. Your tongue has taste buds and because the whole body is covered, the uncovered part -- your face, your hands, your ears, your eyes, your nose, your mouth -- they all have 1/08/07

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become concentratedly sensitive.

So you can see more beauty than a naked man. You can hear music, its subtle nuances, than a naked man. You can taste better, more fine qualities of taste than a naked man. He simply swallows things -- there is no question of taste -- but in the beginning it would have been difficult. So that's simply the beginning.

Once they become accustomed, they will be able to have sensitivity even through the gloves.

In fact you are already having gloves of the leather of your own. Who is there? -- you are in the head, the part, the center that feels it is in the head and then there are bones and nerves and it is a complicated system. In that complicated system, just a little bit of plastic more, I don't think it is going to create any trouble. If your mind can manage through all this complicated system, to feel the woman's body, it will be able to feel through the plastic glove.

Soon you will find that it is more hygienic, because your hand will not be touching the woman's perspiration which can be dangerous.... I have suggested to my people: stop kissing and start rubbing your noses. And don't feel that you are losing something -- it is only a question of thinking. You are gaining a new ground. You have never understood that noses are one of the most erotic points. Eskimos for centuries have been doing that; they never kiss, because they always think that kissing is unhygienic, ugly. If they see a Frenchman kissing, they will start vomiting -- what this man is doing?

Q: SHOULD I THINK THAT I AM DOING WELL BECAUSE I HAVE A BIG NOSE?

A: Big nose will be better, certainly. A Jew is better in every way!

Q: DOES IT SHOW?

A: I am a Jew -- just born in a wrong country!

Q: I'VE HEARD RUMORS THAT YOU'RE POSSIBLY PLANNING A PROGRAM SIMILAR TO THE

SHARE-A-HOME PROGRAM, BUT WITH AIDS VICTIMS, AND I'M WONDERING IF THERE'S ANY

TRUTH TO THOSE RUMORS.

A: No. It is just a rumor. And my people are very creative in... making rumors go around. And we enjoy! Nothing to be worried.

Q: THE MAGAZINE IS UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT THE DUTCH SANNYASIN POPULATION

IS ONE OF THE LARGEST, PERCENTAGE-WISE, IN RELATION TO THE TOTAL POPULATION OF

THE NETHERLANDS. IF THAT'S SO, WHATDO YOU THINK COULD BE A EXPLANATION FOR

THAT?

A: It is true.... Holland is almost mine! Just the way Germany is mine.... The same is the reason for both the countries to become interested in me: both are people with guts and cowards cannot be interested in me.

German and Dutch, both have guts and know how to take risks and go for adventure.

French people are just intellectuals. I don't have any impact on France, for the simple reason that intellectuals are interested only in talking and thinking, but never doing anything.

The English are grumpy, long faces, so depressed and depressive to others that they cannot believe it is possible to laugh and rejoice and dance. They have lost all hope -- with their empire gone, they are almost a graveyard. England is no more a living country, and those who are alive have come to me.

The Italians are here in a large number -- Italians have been to me -- but they are as slippery as their spaghetti. You cannot rely on them. Just a national characteristic: they are not reliable. What they can do?

They are not doing it knowingly... So many have come, many have gone, many go on coming and going, but they are slippery people.

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me. With every phase they know the joy of trusting, they also know a certain decisiveness which Italians miss. They are not decisive; they are always to be or not to be -- either, or. The German or Dutch, either he will not become part of my world movement -- that is clear, it is not indecisiveness; he has taken a decision

-- or he will become part and that is not wishy washy. Now he is going to stay with his commitment.

Every country has developed a certain character. Down the centuries, different geography, different history, different religious ideologies, different

(seems to be a gap between tape sides B & C)

is one of the cleanest city in the world, but when they come to the commune they understand that they can be defeated. And our vision is absolutely clear. It is not foggy, it is not based on beliefs; it is absolutely rational, scientific, and we are all for peace and we want there should be no world war -- no war ever. The last war has happened. They are coming more and more, in more numbers....

It is a little bit difficult to characterize people, but people have different characters. For example, Indians are so much in misery, suffering, poverty, but still they go on holding the idea that they are the holiest people in the world. Now what is the need for them to become sannyasins? They are the holiest people already! Just to be born in India is to be holy, so why they should bother about...? And they are afraid of me, because I don't accept their holiness, I don't accept their religion, I don't accept their tradition -- I am against every tradition, every religion, every ideology.

I want man to be deprogrammed, completely deprogrammed, so he is clean and clear, unburdened of the past and free to fly into the future. But that is most difficult for an Indian. He is so burdened with a long tradition of ten thousand years, and for ten thousand years he has been believing that he is the only religious community in the world, and the highest. It is difficult for them. They have lost all sense of humor, because holy persons don't laugh. They have lost all sense of respect because they have become accustomed to be respected; they have forgotten that they have to respect also in response.

There was a world Hindu conference. The secretary was interested in me and somehow managed an invitation for me. The president was the shankaracharya, the head of the Hindus, and we have been quarreling and fighting for almost two decades. If he had known that the invitation has gone to me, it would have been immediately prevented, but without his knowledge the invitation came to me and my friend's letter that, "The Shankaracharya does not know about it, but you have to come, because your presence will make a difference; otherwise, all those Hindu leaders will talk the same nonsense."

I was to inaugurate the conference and Shankaracharya was to preside it, but the moment he saw me, he lost all gentlemanliness, completely a nervous breakdown. He jumped and took over the mike and inaugurated the conference. Seeing that I have been invited to inaugurate it, the people were shocked and could not believe that this should be done. Even if Shankaracharya is doing it, this is wrong, because on their cards they have received my name was to inaugurate the conference and Shankaracharya was just to preside.

And while inaugurating the conference he told that he cannot sit on the same platform with me, and he is not going to allow me to speak. I went close to him and I said, "I will not take more than two minutes -- just one question I have to ask to the people," and not bothering about him, I took the mike and asked the people, "What do you want? Do you want me to speak or not? If you want me to speak raise both of your hands," and there were at least one hundred thousand people, two hundred thousand hands. And I said to Shankaracharya, "Look at these hands -- you are no more president here. You are cancelled by the audience itself; now go home and rest!"

I spoke and argued against everything that he has said. He was becoming red and trembling with anger, and these are the people who think themselves holy.... Since that conference it was made a point that in no Hindu conference I should be invited. Since that conference I have not been in any Hindu conference to speak. And the fear is that what they are saying is absolutely wrong, and they are keeping the people still befooled. And those one hundred thousand people were absolutely in my favor, because on each point I completely demolished him, and they clapped and they appreciated it, and the more they appreciated it, the more he was out of his mind completely. In fact, while getting down he fell from the stage. He was in such a state....

Hindus have a idiotic idea of being the holiest people -- naturally, they can't come to me, because I will take their holiness away and make them simple human beings. My whole effort is to make simple human beings, natural human beings.

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Q: WHAT ABOUT THE AMERICANS?

A: Americans are phony! Plastic. Nothing much.

Q: HOW IS THAT MANIFEST MOST OBVIOUSLY?

A: They used to come to me in India -- while I was there they used to come, many Americans -- every year to visit me and they will remain there for two, three hours... months, do the meditations and everything and then they will disappear, come back to America.

Since I have been in America, I have not seen those people at all, because now it needs guts to be here! I am fighting the Oregon government, fighting the Federal government, and those people have simply chickened out.

Q: IS THAT A PROBLEM FOR YOU IN THAT THE AMERICANS ARE CHICKEN, AND THAT

YOU'RE NOT ROBBING AMERICA OF ITS SONS AND DAUGHTERS, WHICH IS ALWAYS WHAT

PEOPLE ARE ASSUMING?

A: Not at all. For all the money that....

Q: WHICH WOULD CREATE MORE CONTROVERSY, IF MORE PEOPLE WERE SAYING, "I'M

LOSING MY SON AND DAUGHTER TO THIS COMMUNE," SINCE THAT'S USUALLY THE WAY THE

MEDIA REPORTS IT -- AND THAT'S THE HYSTERIA THAT'S REPORTED IN MANY NEWSPAPERS.

A: That is a possibility, but one thing you should remember: I have not used American dollar in creating this commune at all. All the money has come from different countries. American dollar I have not used yet.

I will use it... I cannot leave them just like that. Even they, they are chickens, I will... I have a chicken house here!

Q: IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THIS ISN'T SO ATTRACTIVE TO AMERICANS POSSIBLY BECAUSE

THEY HAVE SUCH A SUPERIOR ATTITUDE?

A: No. They have been coming -- not only they, but their leaders were coming. Erhard, the founder of EST was coming to me. Dick, the founder of Esalen Institute was coming to me. Here I know where the problem is: the problem is the people who had been coming to India and becoming sannyasins there were simply dishonest. They will wear red clothes there and the moment they left India they closed their red clothes in the suitcases and became Americans. So here, no problem was about them.

Now to come here means to get into trouble with the society, with the parents, with the wife, with the husband, and those who have come, they had to face all that trouble.

In India they were coming, they were not afraid that their dollar is in any risk; here it is. We have poured here almost two hundred million dollars in this desert and if we want to make this whole desert a lush, green place, it will need a billion dollar or two billion dollars more. And certainly we are going to get them from the Americans. How far they can escape? They cannot escape, but they will try. That's why I am saying they have chickened out.

Seeing the enormousity of the commune, seeing that there is going to be a fight with the government --

and we are fighting in so many courts and we are winning in every court.... And I have made it a point that the whole American politicians are doing things which are against American constitution, and in our sannyasins there are four hundred legal experts. We have the biggest legal firm in the whole world and they 1/08/07

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are working day, night, to fight the government on their own grounds. And we are winning!

Q: DO YOU HAVE FUN WITH THAT?

A: I am going to have immense fun. I am really excited. I was sick... I became healthy! I have not become healthy by any medicine, but just the excitement has proved of tremendous help.

Q: IN THE RECENT DER SPIEGEL INTERVIEW YOU CALLED HITLER A TRUE AND GREAT

LEADER -- DO YOU STAND BY THIS OR WERE PERHAPS YOU QUOTED OUT OF CONTEXT?

A: He was certainly a great leader, but he was a crackpot! There is no contradiction in it. In fact, only crackpots can be leaders, otherwise who bothers to be leader?

Q: I'VE BEEN AT THE RANCH NOW SEVEN TIMES. THE NEWS PEG OR REASON OR HEADLINE

FOR EACH OF MY VISITS WOULD BE SOMETHING LIKE THIS: THE FIRST VISIT -- INDIA'S SEX

GURU COMES TO AMERICA; MY SECOND VISIT WAS INDIA'S SEX GURU SWALLOWS SMALL

TOWN; MY THIRD VISIT, I CAME HERE FOR THE FIRST FESTIVAL, WELCOMING SANNYASINS TO

THE NEW RANCH AND THE SMALL, SWALLOWED TOWN; THE FOURTH VISIT I MADE WAS FOR

THE SECOND FESTIVAL AND PHOTOGRAPHING THE PROGRESS OF THE NEW CITY; THE FIFTH

TIME WAS FOR GUNS, GAMBLING AND BECAUSE A VERY WEALTHY GERMAN BLUE BLOOD

SHOWED UP HERE; THE SIXTH TIME WAS FOR WELCOMING THE HOMELESS; AND NOW I'M

HERE DOING A STORY ON AIDS. WHAT DO YOU THINK MIGHT BE THE REASON FOR MY NEXT

VISIT?

A: Just that the red people swallowed America....

The Last Testament, Vol 2

Chapter #23

Chapter title: Religion Is Just Rubbish

13 September 1985 pm in Jesus Grove

Archive code: 8509135

ShortTitle: LAST223

Audio:

Yes

Video:

Yes

Length: 110 mins

[NOTE: This discourse is published in the book: The Last Testament, Volume 1, as Chapter 12.]

Ma Yoga Vidya

RAJNEESHPURAM

OREGON

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QUESTION: BHAGWAN, YOU SAY YOU ARE TRYING TO DEPROGRAM THE WHOLE WORLD.

SPECIFICALLY, WHAT DO YOU RECOMMEND FOR AMERICA?

ANSWER: The process of deprogramming is the same; whom you are deprogramming does not matter.

He may be American, he may be German, he may be Hindu, he may be Mohammedan. It is just like cleaning the room. What kind of furniture the room has, what kind of pictures are hanging in the room, doesn't matter. You are simply to remove everything from the room and create a space.

And it is a total deprogramming, so there is no question of choice, that something good has to be saved.

Then your question will be relevant. But as I see things, whatever good is there is joined with something bad. They are together. You cannot separate them. For example, if you want to remove prostitution you will have to remove marriage. Without removing marriage there is no way to remove prostitution. That's why for thousands of years every country, every religion has tried that prostitution should be removed. But they could not succeed, for the simple reason that they could not see an intrinsic connection between marriage and prostitution.

If you really want to remove prostitution, you have to remove marriage. And that is the case with everything. So if it was something that American society has, something good which can be saved, German society has something else good which can be saved....

Every society is an organic whole. A woman may be beautiful because she has a beautiful nose, but you cannot save the nose and throw the woman out. It is an intrinsic part of the woman. You will have to accept that the nose will also go with the woman. There may be a few things which appear good, but they are good only in appearance, because they are part of a bigger whole which is not good.

So it is not a question that in deprogramming America anything special is needed. The same process will be applicable to every society, everywhere. You will be throwing different things out of human life, but the throwing is the same. And the problems of throwing things will be the same. This always will be the problem, that there is something good connected with the bad. It can exist only with the bad part. If you throw the bad part, the good part simply disappears.

There is something good in marriage but you cannot save it. It is intrinsically joined with the whole fabric of marriage.

So we have to be aware that many good things will have to be thrown out. But it is not going to be a loss, because once man is deprogrammed, he is now free to grow according to his nature. Now he will not be American, he will not be Christian, he will not be Catholic, but just a human being, as he was born.

Deprogramming brings him back his second birth.

When he was born he was neither American nor Christian nor Catholic. He had no name. He was just a potentiality to grow -- which has been destroyed by people, society, religion. They have been molding people for their own interests.

And our whole program is never to mold a person, because every molding of the person is destructive to his individuality. It is going to be against his nature. And then he will never be blissful. Against nature there is no joy. Against nature there is no ecstasy. Against nature there is except misery, suffering, agony, nothing else.

One has to follow his own instinct. They have to be understood, these two words: instinct and intuition.

Instinct is unconscious nature and intuition is conscious nature. First your instinct has to be freed from all the fetters of principles, dogmas, right and wrong, morality and immorality. Instinct, completely natural, has tremendous beauty. That is the beauty you see in the animals. A deer just jumping, running, has a certain beauty which man has lost. His jumping and running has a grace that comes from instinct. He is not jumping and running, it is nature jumping and running through him. He is just instrumental. This is the first step towards ultimate freedom, that your instinct should be allowed all growth possible.

And alongside, you should continue to meditate, because meditation is not a program. Meditation is just a method of becoming aware of what is happening to you. No disturbance, no judgment, just watching what is happening in you. If you go on watching your instincts and their growth, a moment comes when your instincts start changing into intuition.

The word is very significant. We are given tuition everywhere. That tuition is to repress your intuition.

In the schools, in the colleges, in the universities, you are given tuition. It means something from the outside being forced upon you, and intuition means something coming from your innermost core. If you are unconscious, then it will remain instinct. If you are conscious, then instinct plus awareness is equal to 1/08/07

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intuition. Then for the first time you have found your Master within yourself Intuition is your Master, your real university. And now you don't need any scripture, you don't need any guide. Your inner light is enough to lead you to the ultimate goal of enlightenment.

So deprogramming is absolutely necessary. That simply means cleaning the person of the past and bringing him back to his innocence of childhood. And it doesn't matter whom you are deprogramming. Of course, you will have to throw different things. If you are deprogramming an Indian, then certainly you cannot throw a TV because there is no TV. If you are deprogramming an American, the TV has to be thrown. Five or six hours he is glued to his TV each day; it is taking up the major part of his life.

This is something that has to be understood. Humanity has been reduced almost into the state of a spectator. You watch television six hours per day. That means six hours you are not living, you are simply seeing other people live, other people playing: a football match, a boxing competition, and you are simply spectator. Then there is the movie -- the same; again you are a spectator. Then there are real matches, and millions of people go mad; and the Olympics -- and you are just reduced to a spectator. Eighteen persons are playing the game and one hundred thousand people are simply spectators.

And if you observe in life, everywhere man has been reduced from being active, participant, into a spectator. Now, this kind of life cannot bring you joy. You are not living, you are avoiding living. It is better to compose your own music. It may not be great, it does not matter. You may not become a famous musician; that does not matter either. What matters is that you were composing it yourself. You were not a spectator; you were a participant, you were a creator. And if people are deprogrammed, all their energy will move towards creativity.

You go into the church, you listen to the sermon and that is your religion. You have a Holy Bible and you read the Bible, a few pages every day, and that is your religion. You never live religion, nor does your priest live religion -- reading the Holy Bible does not mean living religion. You are again reading something as a spectator.

A deprogrammed person stops being a spectator. He becomes creative on his own. The value is not what he creates, the value is that he creates. Joy comes out of creation. Making any small thing -- just making food for someone you love -- is immense joy. But in America you need not do it. Everything is available, packaged. The whole creativity is in how to open the can. If you know how to open the can, you are a great cook.

And this is happening in every sphere of life. People are being deceived. Certainly it is easier to open the can, and it is easier for the vested interests who are selling those cans; but you forget completely that there was a joy in cooking, in making something delicious for someone you love, your friends, children, parents. All that is missing.

A deprogrammed person will have to start his life completely from scratch. So our function is not to bother with what is cluttering his mind. American, German, Hindu, Mohammedan does not matter; whatever, we have to throw it out of his mind without any discrimination. The whole mind has to be emptied of all good, bad, whatever he has.

Of course, the poor man will have different things in his mind, the rich man will have different things; but when both minds are cleaned they are equal. They both have only emptiness, innocence, silence. Empty the Christian, empty the Hindu, empty the Buddhist, and you will not find three kinds of emptinesses.

Emptiness is only of one kind.

So deprogramming is a process which is going to be similar for everybody in the world. And the process is very simple. We just have to make people aware that, "You are miserable, you are suffering, your life is a pain, an agony. You don't find any meaning in it. You are in despair. Still you go on, you continue on the same lines which are causes of all this despair."

Nobody wants to be miserable. We just have to make him aware that even though he does not want to, he remains miserable because he is attached to something which is the cause of his misery -- the Catholic church, the Hindu religion -- which he thinks is something spiritual, which he thinks is going to give him blissfulness. All they are giving him is misery, but he does not connect them.

The function of the sannyasins is to make the connection clear. Once the connection is clear, nobody wants to be miserable. And if it is the church who is making him miserable, then along with his misery he will throw the church, too. Once he breathes in pure air, once he is out of the Christian atmosphere, he will be surprised that the misery has disappeared, that there is some dance in his feet, some song in his heart.

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changes. Instead of misery he starts feeling glimpses of joy, and new windows start opening.

Your work is done once you have given the man a clear vision of what causes his misery. He can never get out of misery itself He has to remove the cause. And if he removes the cause, blissfulness is not something that comes from anywhere, it is just his very nature. Let the misery go, throw its cause away, and you will find yourself full of blissfulness for no reason at all.

Bliss has no cause. It is our very nature. All that is needed is emptiness so that our nature can have a space to grow, blossom, spread fragrance.

Q: BHAGWAN, YOU HAVE SAID YOU HAVE NO INTEREST IN THE OUTSIDE, NO INTEREST IN

POLITICS. YET YOU OFTEN SPEAK ABOUT POLITICS AND POLITICIANS AND GIVE US MANY

INSIGHTS INTO WORLD PROBLEMS. CAN YOU COMMENT?

A: I don't have any interest in the outside world, in politics, but I have immense interest in you. You are living in a world which is ugly, sick, one foot in the grave. And I don't want you to be drowned with this sick world.

That's why I speak against many things. My interest is in you, my sannyasins. I speak against politics because I don't want my sannyasins to remain ignorant of who the real criminals are in this world. That's why I speak against the priests and religions, because I don't want any single loophole for you. You have to be aware who the criminals are. The problem is that those criminals are thought to be great leaders, sages, saints, mahatmas, and they are respected tremendously around the world, so you will never think that they can be criminals. So I have to insist continuously, every day.

It is for two reasons that you must become aware that these are the criminals. In fact, criminals have not done any harm to the world. Somebody murders a man, somebody steals something, it is nothing. A single Adolf Hitler kills ten million people. Now, that man has so much criminality in him that ten million criminals are needed to make one Hitler.

So I have to expose all these people because they are the causes. For example, it is easier to understand that perhaps politicians are the causes of many problems: wars, murders, massacres, burning people. It is even more difficult when it comes to religious leaders, because nobody has raised his hand against them.

They have remained respectable for centuries, and as time goes on their respectability goes on growing. The most difficult job for me is to make you aware that these people -- knowingly or unknowingly, that does not matter -- have created this world.

Now, in the whole world they will be talking about AIDS, but this is the only place where I am saying that this is a religious disease. Nowhere else will it be said. On the contrary, the priests are saying that this is a punishment from God. And people will believe them, that it is punishment for homosexuality. But nobody will ask how homosexuality came into being, or who is responsible for homosexuality.

And people don't have intelligence enough to connect things. They cannot connect the simple fact that it is the religions who have been teaching people to remain celibate. They are the root cause of all perversions about sex. So if anybody has to be punished it is not the homosexuals. If anybody has to be punished it is those religious leaders who have preached celibacy. Homosexuality is just a by-product of the teaching of celibacy.

The journalists get shocked because they were not thinking that I would put the blame on religion for AIDS. They don't see. They think they are worlds apart. They are not. And unless you see the real cause, you cannot fight with the problem that has arisen.

Now, the first thing needed is that every government makes celibacy illegal, criminal. Rather than that, they are doing just the opposite -- making homosexuality illegal. Homosexuality is a symptom, it is not the cause. If you make homosexuality illegal, then these people will start making love to animals, which is not illegal. And there are people who make love to animals. It is not something new, it is as ancient as man. If they cannot find a woman, if they cannot find a man, the poor animal is available. If you make homosexuality criminal, illegal, the homosexual will go into another perversion which perhaps may bring a bigger disease than AIDS. One never knows what will be the outcome of that.

People should be made aware that you cannot go against nature, and anybody who teaches you to go against nature is the enemy of the people.

I have no interest in any religion because it is all just rubbish; no interest in politics because I have no ambition of any kind. It is for you, for two reasons that I criticize them. One is so that you become aware of 1/08/07

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the real causes, so that you are not deluded in the same way the whole world is deluded. Whenever something against the traditional mind is said, it shocks.

For example, I was thinking, women making love to other women are not suffering from AIDS. In fact, no problem arises out of it. That gives a clear clue that the female energy is a receptive energy. The female genitalia are receptive. The male energy is the donor; in other words, it is positive and the female energy is negative. Two negative energies cannot do any harm because both are receptors; they cannot transpire anything to each other. That's why I call it just a silly game you can play, there is no problem in it. No harm is possible. And if you are enjoying and no harm is possible, then why not enjoy?

But two males making love, both are donors. That is the difficulty. Their biology has no way to receive sexual energy, and both are donating energy to each other. Both are naturally incapable of receiving energy.

Now they are playing with fire. This energy is going to destroy their very natural structure. There is no place for this energy.

I was thinking that these people who have become homosexuals have become addicted to it, and making it illegal, a crime, is not going to change them. They will simply go underground, which is more dangerous.

Then you don't know who is homosexual. Right now they have been moving in society as if they are avant garde intellectuals, more liberated than heterosexuals. Heterosexuals are just still living in the animal world of biology, and they have broken out of the prison, and they have found something better. So they were not afraid to accept that they are homosexuals. In fact, they were bragging about it. They were looking on heterosexuals as something lower. So it was very easy to catch hold of them, give them the test, find the people who have AIDS and find measures to prevent it.

Now, making it illegal will make it spread fast. And what they have done in Texas is going to be done everywhere -- in America and in other countries -- because governments are so idiotic. They simply start fighting with the symptoms and nobody wonders what are the causes.

And in fact they don't want to look at the causes because the causes are such that they are beyond their capacity. If they start looking for the causes, perhaps they may also prove part of the causes themselves. The priests may be part of the causes, the pope may be part of the causes, Jesus Christ may be the foundation stone. It is better not to go into it. Just catch hold of the symptom and start fighting with the symptom.

Repress the symptom.

When you repress the symptom in one place, it will erupt from somewhere else, and it will be going farther away from nature. The first perversion was going away from nature; the second perversion is now farther away, and a third perversion will be even farther away. And the man will become so miserable because he cannot find the way back. Things have become too complex for ordinary people to come back to nature again. So I want you to be aware never to fight with the symptoms.

Now we have a world of our own, and if we act intelligently we can save our sannyasins from the destruction that is going to come to the other world. Right now you are minority. Tomorrow you can be the majority for the simple reason that you will be protected and the outside world is absolutely unprotected.

They will be dying like dogs. They are dying like dogs.

In Los Angeles one person is dying of AIDS every day, and nobody seems to know what to do. In fact the outside world is such that it is very difficult for them to do anything. And who will tie the bell on the cat's neck? That's the problem. We can do it. There is not much trouble. You know the old story, that the cat was eating the mice of the house every day and finally the mice had a meeting and decided something had to be done. A young mouse, not experienced in the ways of the world, said, "This is simple. Just tie a bell around the neck of the cat, so wherever she goes we will know immediately. Before she comes to us we can move into our holes. She will not be able to find us." A perfect solution.

But a problem arose: who was going to tie the bell?

I have told the story again, and I said, "The young mouse who said, 'Tie the bell' said, 'I will do it, don't you worry.' They were surprised. They said,'But since ancient days the story is going on. Here it stops.

Whoever said, "Tie the bell" is going against the tradition, against the whole history. This is the point where the full stop comes. The story is finished.' "The young mouse said,'No more, because I go to the medical store every day. Just by the side is the medical store. All that is needed are a few sleeping pills that I can bring and put in the milk of the cat. You give me the bell and I can manage.' And he managed! Just a few sleeping pills and the whole story changes. After drinking the milk, the cat fell fast asleep, snoring, and the young mouse did his work perfectly well."

But this is my addition to the story. It is not anywhere, and I want to do the same as far as humanity is concerned. We can tie the bell around the neck of the cat. We have nothing to lose, so we have to shout 1/08/07

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loudly from every roof in the world that homosexuals are victims, that religious leaders are the causes, that to make homosexuality illegal simply means making people go away from nature. The best way is to first make celibacy illegal. That means all the religions will be disturbed immediately, because that is their whole base. Make celibacy illegal.

The second thing -- the same way I am not joking -- if things are coming to such a bad end, then it is better to find some scientific methods. For women there are electric vibrators -- more hygienic, more scientific, more patient, not in a hurry, not afraid of anybody -- and their button is in your hand. So take as long as you want, and only an electric vibrator can give a woman complete satisfaction. Now, this will shock people, what can I do about it.

This is true, because the woman has suffered for centuries without orgasm and that's why she is so ugly in her behavior. There is no problem. You use everything scientific for everything else, so what is the problem? If a woman can have orgasmic joy through an electric vibrator, let her enjoy it. And something similar should be made for men. Rather than driving homosexuals underground, why not give them plastic ladies -- or plastic men if they prefer? If they don't like ladies at all, they can have plastic men. Plastic has no grudge against being a man or any preference, priority, to be a woman. Plastic is plastic.

And in fact it can be more satisfying to men, too, because the wife is nagging, fighting, angry. To make love to a woman whom you hate from your guts, what kind of love is this? It is simply a way of masturbating, and an ugly way. So what is the need to force this woman unnecessarily?

Make it clear, because the world is not clear even though medical science is absolutely clear. Even doctors in India I have found idiotic. I asked them "You tell me the medical viewpoint, I am not asking your Hindu viewpoint." Hindus think -- and perhaps other religions all over the world also think -- that masturbation leads people to madness. That is just an idea to prevent masturbation. Nobody wants to be mad, and when from childhood on you hear again and again that masturbation leads to madness, naturally you become afraid that this is not good. Medical science is absolutely clear that masturbation cannot lead anybody to madness, for one thing. The second thing, the religions go on repeating that too much masturbation will destroy all your intelligence. You will die sooner.

Now, nobody can masturbate too much; that is sheer impossibility. You can masturbate only so much --

you have a certain quantity of semen in your body, you can release that much semen -- more than that is beyond you. Whatever you do, you cannot suddenly produce semen. It will take time. So there is a natural prevention against doing it too much, and if the monks of all the religions listen to me, I will tell them,

"Masturbate and meditate."

I can even give a title to a book: MEDITATION THROUGH MASTURBATION. If superconsciousness is possible through sex, then why is meditation not possible through masturbation? And certainly it is possible. People just have to look at things with new eyes.

As a person who is masturbating starts feeling he is coming to an orgasmic state, his thoughts disappear.

He is in the same orgasmic state as while he is making love to a woman. There is no difference. His biology knows no difference. Whether the semen is released in some mechanism, in some body or somewhere else, it does not matter. It is just bringing your sexual tension to its ultimate, which is more easily possible in masturbation because with a woman the other is also there. In masturbation you are a master. You can go slow, you can go fast, you can bring the orgasmic state very slowly. And that orgasmic state is meditation, be aware. It will be easier, because there is nobody else to disturb. You are alone.

So make it known to the whole world that masturbation does not lead to madness; celibacy can lead to madness but not masturbation. And if homosexuals are not interested in women, then perhaps masturbation will be closer to nature than homosexuality. And masturbation can be joined with meditation.

So I am saying all these things for your benefit, because you will have to face these problems and you should not commit the same mistakes. If a child is found masturbating, then don't do the same stupidity that is being done all over the world. Just tell him, "This is perfectly good. You meditate with it also and you will get more juice out of it. And there is nothing wrong in it, so you don't need to hide." But man is such a coward. He is not ready to face any reality.

And secondly, I am saying these things so that you don't start behaving in the same way. I will not be here with you forever. The moment I am not with you, you can start behaving politically, you can start making a bureaucracy, a hierarchy. You can start making small groups and fighting with each other and doing the whole thing, on a smaller scale, of course.

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fully capable of making love at the age of fourteen? Will you are prevent him for ten, twelve years? Has he to be celibate until the time he is out of the university with a master's degree or Ph.D.? You are just asking nonsense.

It is better to teach him how to tackle his sexual energy, and if perhaps girls are available for these times, then keep the girls and boys in the same hostel. Make them aware of birth control methods. Teach them, "Go on changing your partners each month so you don't become addicted and you don't feel jealous, because this is the time of your experiencing. Experience as many men, as many women as possible before you decide."

When people go to purchase the cheapest thing in the market -- a mud pot -- they tap even that all over to check that it is without any crack. What about marriage? They want two persons, both inexperienced.... In fact, the girl's qualification is that she should be virgin. What do you mean by virgin? She should be inexperienced -- a strange qualification for any job. This is not right. That girl is inexperienced and the same is expected of the boy, that he will not be experienced. He should really be a bachelor, celibate. Two inexperienced people put together, and you think that there is going to be a beautiful life out of this meeting? They are going to spoil everything because they don't have any experience.

So for our children in the commune, girls and boys should be staying in the same hostel. And it is the duty of the superintendent to see that their partners are changed each month so there is no question of jealousy. In ten years' time they will have changed so many partners that being jealous will simply drop from their minds. If their wife changes the partner, or if they want to change, it will be simply easy. They both have changed so many times and they are so much experienced that even your ninety-year-old man is not so much experienced. And experience is always good. It brings wisdom to you.

These children should be taught that their love should be joined with meditation. If they masturbate, there is no harm in it. Medically it is healthy, hygienic, more hygienic than making love to a girl, more natural than making love to a man. You can join meditation with it very easily and it is the greatest joy. If meditation becomes associated with your great joy, then your whole life will be a different life.

All the religions have done just the opposite. They have destroyed your joy and they have been teaching you meditation -- so the meditation does not succeed. It can succeed only if it is a joyous experience, so why not join it with a biological joy which is available? But because I have been saying such things people want to kill me, assassinate me, even though I am simply stating absolutely scientific facts.

So this is the second reason: that you become aware that in this society no priesthood arises, no politics arises. Even while I am here the same stupidities are arising once in a while. Just the other day Sheela has written a letter to me that now when she comes back here she does not feel as excited as she used to be. She feels happier working outside, in Europe, in Australia, in Japan or anywhere else. Perhaps she is not conscious -- and this is the situation for all -- she does not know why she does not feel excited here any more. It is because I am speaking and she is no longer the central focus. She is no longer a celebrity. When I am speaking to you, she is no longer needed as a mediator to inform you of what I am thinking. Now that I am speaking to the press and to the radio and TV journalists, she has fallen into shadow. And for three-and-a-half years she was in the limelight because I was silent.

It may not be clear to her why she does not feel excited coming here and feels happy in Europe. She is still a celebrity in Europe -- interviews, television shows, radio interviews, newspapers -- but here all that has disappeared from her life. If you can behave in such foolish unconscious ways even while I am here, the moment I am gone you will be creating all kinds of politics, fight. Then what is the difference between you and the outside world? Then my whole effort has been a failure. I want you to behave really as a new man.

I have given Sheela the message that this is the reason: "So think it over and tell me. If you want me to stop speaking just for your excitement, I can stop speaking."

To me there is no problem in it. In fact, it is a trouble. For five hours a day I am speaking to you, and it is creating unhappiness in her mind. So let her do her show business. I can move into silence. But that indicates that deep down those who have power will not like me to be here alive, because while I am here nobody can have any power trip. They may not be conscious about it; only situations reveal your power trip.

And I can make it, show it to her. If she denies it, I can go to Europe and show her whether she feels happy in Europe or not, or wherever she wants to check about her happiness. But deep down this means that you would like me to die.

If you would like me to be silent, not to speak, so that you are in the forefront, then deep down that means... why just silent? Silent men can start speaking any moment; make him silent completely.

These are not conscious thoughts in anybody's mind, but this is how the unconscious mind functions.

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And I want you to be aware of everything. Before I leave you I want you to be aware so that you don't fall into the same pitfalls every society, every civilization, has fallen into.

Q: BHAGWAN, YOU HAVE CALLED THIS COMMUNITY YOUR CIRCUS, YOUR CARNIVAL. IS

THIS CARNIVAL HAPPENING WITH ANY PURPOSE OR IS IT JUST FOR FUN?

A: It is just for fun. Purpose is a business word, where everything is done for some end, where every act is divided in two parts, the means and the end. The end is always in the future, so in every purposive activity you have to sacrifice the present for the future. And my whole teaching is not to sacrifice the present for anything.

So against purpose, my work is pure fun. The word fun is not very respected, but we have to make it the most respected word. Purpose is ugly. Purpose means you always act with greed. Fun means there is no greed. Fun means there is no need for you to be victorious. You are playing cards -- just fun; nobody takes it seriously whether you are defeated or victorious. After the game is over, all victories and all defeats are over too.

That's how life should be taken. Live each moment totally, but don't carry the idea of purpose; otherwise you cannot live totally, your mind is somewhere in the future looking at the purpose, arrowed at the purpose. You can't be total in the activity. Your action is half-hearted. You are doing it mechanically. But if there is no purpose, you can be total in the moment.

My work is fun, but out of this fun there is much flowering. I am not saying that nothing will come out of it. So remember the distinction: the man who is working for some purpose perhaps may not attain it, because he is never wholeheartedly in the action. The man who is functioning only as fun is so totally in it that he may attain to many things which the purposive man can never dream of. So just thinking "Act out of fun" does not mean that you are a loser. You are a gainer in every way just because of your totality. Your action is going to bring more fruits, more flowers, although you were not working for fruits and flowers.

You enjoyed the moment, its action, and out of that enjoyment and out of that totality many things are going to happen. But they were not your concern. When they happen, you will be surprised.

A sannyasin is surprised every moment because he was not hoping that anything was going to happen.

He had not even given a thought to it. He was so involved in his action that there was no space for anything.

But when the moment and the action are finished, he is surprised that something great and beautiful has arisen out of it.

My sannyasin will never feel miserable, never feel disappointed. The man who works with the idea of purpose in mind is always miserable.

The proverb is significant: Man proposes, God disposes. God may not exist, but the proverb has a truth in it. The truth is, the more you propose, the more you will feel disappointment. You can dump that on the head of God -- who does not exist so he cannot deny it: "I have not disposed of anything. You yourself messed things, because you were not total in your action. You have missed the target."

My people are living as fun. That's why I call it a circus, a carnival. It is not a marketplace. It is just a commune of people who have decided to enjoy life to its fullest, materially, spiritually, in every dimension.

Q: BHAGWAN, YOU HAVE SAID THAT IF THERE ARE ONLY TWO HUNDRED ENLIGHTENED

PEOPLE IN THE WORLD A THIRD WORLD WAR IS NOT POSSIBLE. CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT YOU

MEAN, HOW THESE TWO HUNDRED PEOPLE WOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE AMONG THE

BILLIONS OF UNCONSCIOUS PEOPLE?

A: Certainly. They will make tremendous difference. When the whole room is dark, just a small candle makes so much difference. In such a big room a small candle, lighted... the whole darkness disappears.

An enlightened person is a tremendous light -- very subtle but for miles around him many people's lives will be touched. And if two hundred people are enlightened, which has never happened in history.... At the most, ten people have been enlightened at the same time, in Gautam Buddha's days. That is the only moment, and India remembers that moment as the Golden Age because the country felt something strange for which there were no words. It was mysterious, but the country felt unburdened, and an immense sense of 1/08/07

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joy, centering, nonviolence, understanding.

But that was only ten people, and they were not all living their whole lives simultaneously. Just at one point Mahavira was old, Buddha was young. Goshalak was just between the age of the two. Ajit Keshkambal, Sanjay Vilethiputta and the remaining ones all were of different ages. But there was a time when all the ten were alive. It did not last long, because few were very old and they started dying. By the time Buddha died, he was alone. All others had died before him.

So only at a certain point, perhaps for a few years, ten people have been at the same time enlightened, and they raised the consciousness of the whole country. Now, two hundred people around the world can create an aura of energy which will be a very subtle force, like x-rays. You don't see them.

Both Soviet Russia and America are trying to find death rays -- just like x-rays -- which will be far better than nuclear bombs, because nuclear bombs can be seen. America has made arrangements. Many billions of dollars have been spent by Ronald Reagan. Thirty million Americans are hungry and on the streets, and many billions have been spent on a secret plan. They are keeping certain of the latest developed instruments on submarines, so that if from the Soviet Union any missile carrying a nuclear weapon comes towards America, it will be able only to move seven miles. This much time those submarines and the machines will take. And they have arrangements to hit the missile directly to change its direction back towards Soviet Union itself.

So before the missile leaves the Soviet Union it will be directed back. All around America they now have submarines waiting. If any attack is made, then they can redirect the nuclear weapons to the Soviet Union. In fact, they will never allow them to leave Soviet territory. We don't know what arrangements the Soviet Union has, but they must be having some other arrangement.

Both countries are searching for death rays, and perhaps the Soviet Union has found them, that's why they are not worried about this arrangement. Perhaps they will not use nuclear weapons, which will be visible; they will use death rays, which will be invisible, and cannot be redirected.

And with the death rays one thing is very strange: it will kill only the living beings. Houses will remain intact. Everything -- furniture, cars, roads -- everything will remain intact. The death rays will go on showering on living people, passing from one living person to another. Wherever life is, they will be moving towards that point. So trees will die, animals will die, man will die.

Early in this century, there were a few painters who painted pictures with houses, furniture, roads --

everything is in the pictures -- but not a single living thing. They could not explain why this idea was so much in their minds. Even seeing their pictures, you feel a great sadness arising in you.

It has been happening many times that poets, painters, get glimpses of things which may be going to happen someday. Now those pictures are predictive. If death rays come, they will simply hit living beings and go on killing them. There will be no bloodshed. The person dying will not know when he was alive, the death will be so quick. You never know when you stand before an x-ray machine that the x-ray has taken the photograph. You don't feel it. The same way with the death ray; you will not feel it, you will be simply gone. And the death ray will not end with you. It will go on jumping, it will have its range.

Two hundred enlightened people can create just the opposite situation. If they are together in a certain arrangement, they can create life rays which will protect people from death rays, which even may help somebody who has died through a death ray to come alive again. But those two hundred enlightened people have to be in a certain communication. Then they can create a circle around the world.

My own idea is that we can create two hundred enlightened people amongst our sannyasins. They are already connected and they are not alone, they are supported by the commune. Their energy can be enhanced, multiplied, by other sannyasins who may not be enlightened but are in search of it, on the way.

I mean what I have said. And if we can make a net of life rays around the earth, it can prevent even nuclear weapons from being destructive. But that is a totally different science and never experimented upon.

But a few glimpses have happened in the past, and there is no harm in experimenting with it. Anyway, there is no other hope.

Our communes have to be ready for it. And they should not think of trivia, of small fights, egos. They should understand their responsibility is so great as it has never been of any human being before. And I hope that we will be able to do something. There is still time, and my people are working hard. Now it is a question whether we can manage within the time or not.

But I have a certainty that we have almost created a Noah's Ark of consciousness for the coming flood of death to the whole of humanity.

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The Last Testament, Vol 2

Chapter #24

Chapter title: none

14 September 1985 pm in Sanai Grove

Archive code: 8509145

ShortTitle: LAST224

Audio:

Yes

Video:

Yes

Length: 125 mins

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

INTERVIEW WITH JOHN DETTINGER, CALIFORNIA MAGAZINE, LOS ANGELES, CA, QUESTION:* BHAGWAN, WHEN I CAME OUT OF SIMPLE CURIOSITY TO THE RANCH IN MAY, IT NEVER OCCURRED TO ME THAT I MIGHT BE SITTING HERE HAVING YOUR FULL ATTENTION.

I HAD DREAMED OF SUCH A THING PERHAPS, BUT I FIND THE MOMENT QUITE MOVING.

ANSWER:* I know. I can... I can feel your heart and your tears. So there is a possibility of authentic communion. You are no more a journalist. I can talk to you now heart to heart.

Otherwise, journalism is something superficial. The moment it becomes a communion of the heart....

Q:* I KNOW WITH YOUR HELP I'LL BE UP TO THAT CHALLENGE. I'VE NOT TRIED THAT WAY

OFTEN BEFORE.

A:* It is very rare because journalists try to remain true to their profession, and their profession is superficial. Journalism does not become literature for the simple reason that it is so superficial. By the evening the newspaper is worthless.

But if it is heart to heart, then journalism can also become art and literature. And it should become.

Q:* I'D LIKE TO KNOW HOW MANY COMMUNES ARE THERE AND WHERE ARE THEY

LOCATED?

A:* It is difficult for me to give you very detailed information because I myself don't know. But almost in every country of the world there are communes. Germany has the largest number of communes. Holland has perhaps the second largest number. England has, Italy has. India, Japan, Switzerland.

In other than communes there are ashramas, which are smaller communes: very few people living. And then there are centers where only one or two sannyasins are living but other sannyasins come to meditate, to listen to the tapes, to read, to discuss.

In all we have almost one million sannyasins around the world. In these one million sannyasins, nearabout two hundred thousand sannyasins are underground. That means they are either in Russian, communist, countries or in Mohammedan countries where they cannot come in the open.

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Even in communist countries we have communes, but underground you cannot declare, you cannot use the red clothes. Even in a red country you cannot use red clothes. My sannyasins are being persecuted by KGB in Russia. Their books have been taken away, their tapes have been taken away and they are constantly interrogated, harassed, to give more information about other sannyasins who may be having literature. My literature is banned.

But that does not make any difference. In fact, it creates more excitement, more curiosity, particularly in the intelligentsia.

So around the world I have one million very intelligent people, deeply interested, not only intellectually interested but existentially interested. They want to be transformed into a New Man. And that is the function of sannyas.

Q:* WHY DO SO MANY COME FROM WEST GERMANY, WHY ARE THE LARGEST NUMBER OF

COMMUNES IN WEST GERMANY? COULD IT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH ADOLF HITLER AND

THE HOLOCAUST?

A:* It has certainly something to do with Adolf Hitler. He prepared the ground for me because he cheated and deceived the whole country. The youth of Germany is no more interested in politicians.

On the other hand, Adolf Hitler was also ambitious to be known as a religious leader. He declared himself to be the reincarnation of Old Testament Prophet Elijah, and German Christian heads prayed for his victory.

The leadership that he gave to the country almost changed people into robots. So the new generation is very much frustrated with politicians, religious leaders, of anybody who would like to impose a discipline on them.

And that's the reason why they are interested in me. I don't have any discipline to impose on anybody.

My teaching is fundamentally for freedom of thinking, being. I have tremendous respect for individuality.

The society is not more important than the individual. The society exists for the individual, not vice versa.

I don't have a dogma, I don't have a God in which you have to believe. I am not a prophet. I am not a messenger. I am simply a human being who can see a little more clearly than you. And I am ready to share my clarity and I am grateful if you allow me to share my clarity with you.

You are not obliged; I am obliged.

So that is the reason why most of the German intelligentsia is immensely interested in me. And the German politicians and the government is in the same proportion afraid. They are afraid that anybody who comes to me never returns back to Germany. They are afraid that I have more influence on their youth than they have.

I have never been in Germany. Still the German politicians have put few cases against me so that I cannot enter the country, or, if I enter, then I can immediately be arrested.

I have no desire to go anywhere.

Q:* ON WHAT GROUNDS WOULD THEY ARREST YOU?

A:* They have made stupid cases against me in the courts. Summons are there with arrest warrants, that I am speaking something which is hurting somebody's religious feelings. Now, anybody can put a case on that ground.

Even in America the president... I was not even thinking that there will be an American Nazi party. The president of the American Nazi party wrote a letter to me that, "You speak against Adolf Hitler and it hurts our religious feelings."

I could not believe that Adolf Hitler and religious feelings... how he is managing to join together? -- till I discovered that he was the reincarnation of Prophet Elijah and they believe that he had come for the salvation of humanity.

So they have put cases against me. There have been cases in India against me. (interviewer is speaking simultaneously) Hmm?

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Q:* THAT IS SURELY A CIVIL SUIT BETWEEN YOU AND THE NAZI PARTY.

A:* Civil suit, yes.

Q:* OUR GOVERNMENT IS WELL KNOWN FOR ITS RELIGIOUS TOLERANCE.

A:* Religious tolerance! Nobody is there.

If you have a religion you cannot have religious tolerance. Only a man like me can have religious tolerance who has no religion. So it does not matter to me. It is simply rubbish.

But to any man who is attached to any religion cannot really have religious tolerance. He has already decided what is right, what is true. Now he can show a hypocrite mask of tolerance, but if you look even in the word tolerance you can see there is the taste of intolerance already present in the very word tolerance.

If I say I simply tolerate your presence here, what does it mean? It simply means I do not rejoice your presence here. You are not welcome. I do not respect you as you are; I simply tolerate.

But tolerance is not a great quality. It is a very third-rate value.

Q:* IT BEATS PERSECUTION. GOVERNMENTS ELSEWHERE HAVE BEEN KNOWN TO

PERSECUTE ON RELIGIOUS GROUNDS.

A:* In fact, persecution is better than tolerance because persecution at least recognizes you on equal grounds.

ersecution really means that the people who are persecuting are afraid of you, they are afraid that if you both are allowed to exist together, sooner the other party is going to win. They have the truth and you don't have it. So before it becomes known, they have to be destroyed.

But when you tolerate somebody, you have already accepted that they are inferior to you; there is no fear about it.

I would rather love to be persecuted than to be tolerated. Persecution simply means you are afraid, you are threatened.

Q:* THAT SEEMS TO BE THE ATTITUDE OF THE GERMAN GOVERNMENT AT THE MOMENT.

A:* Yes. They are threatened. They discuss about me in their parliament, against me -- a person who has never been in their country. But if I am there they are going to persecute me like anything.

But I love it! I enjoy it.

I am being persecuted here in America, what to say of Germany?

Q:* SO THEN YOU ARE PERSECUTED HERE (INAUDIBLE) TOLERATED?

A:* Yes, there are so many cases going in the courts against me -- false, utterly lies. And we are defeating all those cases because they are against their own laws, against their own constitution.

Q:* YOU MEAN THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES?

A:* Yes.

Q:* WE'VE BEEN MOST IMPRESSED IN LOS ANGELES, IN CALIFORNIA, AT HOW WELL THE

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COMMUNE HAS WON EACH CASE AND INSISTED UPON THE AMERICAN WAY BEING SERVED.

A:* We will fight.

Q:* EVEN IN OREGON THERE'S A GRUDGING RESPECT FOR YOUR TRIUMPHS.

A:* Certainly. They have to respect it because we are standing for the constitution and they are standing against their own constitution. It is a strange fate, that we are to protect the American constitution against the Americans.

Q:* WITH SO MANY SANNYASINS -- A MILLION OF THEM WORLDWIDE -- I UNDERSTAND

THAT YOU PERSONALLY CHOOSE EACH SANSKRIT NAME FOR EACH SANNYASIN. IS THAT

CORRECT?

A:* I used to.

Q:* HOW DO YOU ARRIVE AT THE APPROPRIATE NAME FOR EACH SANNYASIN? HOW DO

YOU MANAGE THAT? AND IF YOU COULD ALSO EXPLAIN WHAT THE VALUE OF TAKING A DIFFERENT NAME THAN ONE'S FAMILY NAME.

A:* In India I used to give new names because mostly names in other languages are either meaningless or silly. For example, just the name of one American evangelist, Jerry Falwell -- now I cannot understand why fall-well should be given a name to anybody. It is simply silly.

So I was giving meaningful names to people. From all over the world people were coming there and I was giving them meaningful names which can have a certain significance for them, a certain relatedness to their personality, a certain message for their future growth.

If I saw a person, that he was very sad, long-faced, carrying many frustrations, disappointments, and out of that frustration and disappointments he has come to me but that long shadow is still with him, then I will give him something just the opposite of what he has been up to now, because I want him to discontinue with his past.

For example, I may call him Ananda Prem. Ananda means bliss, Prem means love. A blissful loving personality, that is his goal. And drop all this sadness and all this frustration. Whatever has passed has passed; now nothing can be done about it. Only one thing can be done about it: it can be dropped.

And you can start anew. The new name is simply symbolic of a new birth. When you are born you come without a name. Then your name is given to you.

Sannyas has to be a new birth. So symbolically the new name indicates that the old person is dead and you have to start living from this moment a new way of life.

I have given thousands of names. Now I don't give sannyas myself. But sannyasins who have been with me for fifteen years and are perfectly capable of reading the mind of the man, the personality of the man, they are giving sannyas. And names I have given so many that out of all those names they can find what name will be suitable, because every kind of person and every kind of mind I have initiated into sannyas. So they don't need to bother about new names. I have given thousands of names; they have the whole list and they can find and they can work it out.

But it is certainly significant. Sometimes very small things are very significant. For example, your clothes. It is nothing important that what kind of clothes you are wearing or what color, but when you are mourning you use black. Somehow it fits with your mood, somehow it shows others your situation. In a mourning black dress it will be difficult to have a hearty laugh. Just it will look absurd.

So small things -- I have given my sannyasins the color red because there are only two basic colors in existence: red and green. All other colors are in a very major -- ... minority. The basic is the green: the trees, the forest. And the red.

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Strangely enough, the red is always the color of the flowers. It represents blossoming, flowering, life.

Very few people reach to the stage of flowering. They remain barren. They die without any fruition, without any flowers.

I want to remind my people continuously. Twenty-four hours they will be using the red. They have to flower. Before death comes, flowering has to happen. They have to work for it hard.

Q:* DOES THE MALA HAVE HEALING POWERS?

A:* No. For the sannyasins it can have thousands of meanings. For a non-sannyasin, no meaning because it is a question of your love, your trust. Then anything can have healing power. If you trust me, then just a glass of water from my hand will have the healing power. It is not in the water, it is not in my hand. It is in your trust.

So to a sannyasin the mala is certainly of many meanings. In sickness he can have healing through it, just holding it. In fear, just holding it and he will feel courage. In a moment of loneliness, just holding it and he will not feel lonely, he will feel he is with me. But it all depends on his trust, it has nothing to do with mala itself. Mala is only an excuse.

Q:* I HEARD THAT WHEN THE COMMUNE BEGAN HERE IN OREGON THAT THERE WAS A DAY

OFF, BUT THEN SOMETHING HAPPENED THAT CAUSED YOU TO INSTITUTE A SEVEN-DAY WORK

WEEK. COULD YOU TALK ABOUT THAT?

A:* No, in the beginning people simply started working the way they worked in the outside world. The outside world has followed the routine because in the biblical story God worked for six days and the poor fellow got tired, so seventh day he rested. And since then nothing has been heard about him. He went to eternal rest.

I don't want my people to go to eternal rest. I said it is better to continue working. The seventh day is dangerous.

I was just joking, but the reality was that we had so much to do that even seven days are not enough.

We came into a desert. When we came there was only one house, dilapidated, no greenery, just barren hills. And we had to make it an oasis. And tremendous work was needed. Soon we found six days are not enough. Even seven days are not enough.

Our people are working twelve hours per day and in festival times four times a year, for months they work fourteen hours a day -- but with great joy.

It is their commune, it is their creation. It is not an ordinary work in the ordinary world. It is just like a painter or a musician who goes on playing and practicing for hours without getting tired. In fact, the more he practices the finer becomes his music and greater is his joy.

We are creating an oasis. It is similar to creating poetry or music or sculpture. And we have in four years changed the color of the whole scenery. Now it is green.

Birds have come, deers have come -- on their own accord, seeing that we have managed dams and made big lakes, seeing that so many people are here -- and harmless people. So we have thousands of deers now.

And in the night if you go in the street you will find them standing, and they will not move. You will have to get out of the car and push them, because they know these people don't harm anybody.

In my garden I have three hundred peacocks. Even my car takes too much time to get out of the house and inside the house because they are all standing in the way, dancing. And they are not worried that the car is there, it is not a place to dance. But they know that nobody is going to harm.

Just my chauffeur was saying that in this place there is only one sin: that is, don't run over a peacock.

I said, "That's right."

Q:* BHAGWAN, IF I MAY, JUST FOR A MOMENT GO BACK TO....

A:* Yes, you can go anywhere.

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Q:* I HEARD THAT WHEN THERE WAS A SIX-AND-A-HALF-DAY WEEK, ON THE HALF DAY OFF

THERE WAS A TRAGIC ACCIDENT AND THAT A SANNYASIN WHO WAS A MEMBER OF THE

COMMUNE DROWNED. AND IT WAS FROM THEN ON, PERHAPS LEST HE FALL INTO OBLIVION, THAT THE SEVEN-DAY WORK WEEK WAS INSTITUTED.

A:* No. It had nothing to do with that. It may have been a coincidence but I don't remember that it has anything to do with that.

Accidents can happen any day. It is not a question of....

But our work is so much because we want to be self-sufficient. We don't believe in poverty, we believe in luxury, comfort. This is the only commune in the whole history of man where five thousand sannyasins are living in fully air-conditioned houses. And we have made all these houses. We have made all the roads.

We have made the hospital, the school, the university -- whatever is our need.

We cultivate our own food. We cultivate our vegetables. We have all our milk products because we are vegetarians, so we produce vegetarian eggs 'cause that is an absolute necessity for all vegetarians of the world.

Unless they start eating vegetarian eggs, their intelligence will lag behind others. So not a single vegetarian has up to now received a Nobel Prize for the simple reason that his intelligence cannot grow. It needs certain proteins which are missing in his food.

So we have our chicken farm and we are now perfectly sufficient. We have our cars for every sannyasin who ever wants to use. We have our buses for every sannyasin. We have our airplanes for every sannyasin.

We have our airport. We have everything that we want.

And we will go on producing more and more, because my approach is that true communism is possible only when capitalism comes to its peak. When there is so much wealth that nobody wants to hoard it -- there is no point in hoarding it; nobody hoards the air, it is so much available -- then only there can be a natural communism. And I am all for a natural communism which will not come from a revolution, which will come from evolution.

When capitalism evolves to its totality, it will be a simple matter.

Russian communism is not true communism. It is distributing poverty equally. And I would like everybody to be luxurious, not equally poor. What is the point of equal poverty?

So we are working and we are being successful. And the strangest thing is, that after working twelve hours a day you will not find my people sad or grumpy. They will be laughing and dancing and singing in the evening. They have enough energy after twelve hours work.

If work is something that you are not doing under compulsion, that you are doing out of your own choice and joy, it is never tiring. In fact, it is nourishing and it makes you stronger.

So after working twelve hours they are still able to dance for hours, sing for hours and enjoy the evening late in the night.

My approach towards life is that we have to create the paradise here and now, because there is no other paradise. Don't hope for things which don't exist.

For thousands of years people have been told to hope, and because they have been hoping they have not used their time to create it here. If it is ready-made available after death and you have just to go every day to the church or every Sunday to the church or do a certain mantra every day in the morning five times and there is ready-made paradise after death, then who bothers to work twelve hours and create a paradise here?

My reasoning is that you create paradise here and if there is any paradise after death you will be the only person to enjoy it because all others will be absolutely untrained amateurs. They will not know how to dance.

Just think of your saints. How they will dance? How they are going to hug a beautiful woman?

Impossible! They will close their eyes. This kind of paradise... and they have to live eternally there with all beautiful women and rivers of wine. What your saints will do? They will try to commit suicide, that where they have come?

Only my people will be immensely joyful. They will immediately start making it better.

Q:* I BELIEVE IT WAS 1982 THAT YOU SUGGESTED TO THE CALIFORNIAN SANNYASINS THAT

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THEY MOVE OUT OF THE STATE. COULD YOU TELL US ABOUT THAT?

A:* Yes. I had asked my sannyasins in California to move out because California is now in the whole world the most sexually perverted place. And I have always been thinking that sexual perversion finally is going to lead into something which will be incurable. And it has come now. It is not a disease because a disease can be cured. AIDS is not a disease. It cannot be cured.

There is only one thing which cannot be cured and that is death. So AIDS I call a slow death. And California is the leader in that matter.

Homosexuality, lesbianism, sodomy, other kinds of sexual perversion -- California is on the top. Every day in just L.A. one person is dying of AIDS for almost one year. How many people are suffering from AIDS in California -- the government continues to repress the information. How many people are homosexuals -- the government does not supply the information.

In fact, every government is trying to repress information about homosexuality and AIDS because that makes them look so ugly, sick. But whatever you do, sooner or later you will have to face the fact.

In Texas they have made a law against homosexuality -- just few days before. Now in Texas homosexuality is a crime. The politicians of California think that they have done something great. They are being simply idiotic. Because of their law, one million homosexuals protested. It is just because of their law we came to know that there are one million homosexuals in Texas.

Q:* ARE YOU REFERRING TO THE LAW THAT THE L.A. CITY COUNCIL PASSED RECENTLY

THAT MAKES IT A CIVIL OFFENSE TO FIRE A HOMOSEXUAL WHO HAS AIDS OR A PERSON WHO

HAS AIDS NOT FOR HEALTH REASONS?

A:* No, I am not referring to that. I don't know about that.

In Texas they have driven those one million homosexuals underground. That is more dangerous. Now you will not know who is homosexual, and nobody will turn up for tests in the hospitals. Hospitals are afraid.

So I had called my sannyasins here, and they are here and they are safe.

Perhaps this is the only place which is safe. Every sannyasin has gone through tests, six thousand sannyasins through tests, and only two persons have been found to have AIDS. This must be the lowest rate in the whole world. Among six thousand people only two persons.

And we are taking care of those two persons, giving them all that they need. The best houses we have given them, the best scenic place we have given them. They can come in the discourses, in the meetings.

Just they have been told not to spread the disease in any way. Don't come in physical contact with people because AIDS is possible through kissing, through tears, perhaps through any liquid coming out of the body.

Four other sannyasins from other places have just arrived, because the moment it was known they have AIDS hospitals are not willing to admit because nobody wants to take the risk. Their own families -- their wife, their children, their parents -- don't want them to enter into the house any more. For them they are already dead. Their friends have turned enemies.

Hearing about this -- that we have made a special place for our AIDS patients -- four sannyasins have come. We have accepted them, that, "This is perfectly good. You are simply victims. You should not be condemned."

So in the commune there is no condemnation for them. They are victims of a society which has been in many ways driving people into homosexuality.

For example, all the religions are teaching celibacy as something spiritual, which is simple nonsense.

Celibacy is not possible even. Celibacy is not in your control, that you can be celibate or not. Your body goes on creating male sperms and your body has no idea that you are a celibate monk. So what you are going to do with your sperms? When they collect they have to be released.

My understanding is that homosexuality was born in monasteries where religions put men separate and women separate. That's where lesbianism and homosexuality both were born. These are religious diseases, and if anybody is responsible it is the founders of your religion and the teachers of celibacy. And they are still doing it.

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They should be legally punished. Celibacy should be declared illegal, and anybody staying celibate should be imprisoned immediately.

So rather than punishing the celibates, you are punishing poor homosexuals.

All the religions have forced marriage, monogamy. Now, man is an intelligent being. He is not a buffalo. The buffalo is satisfied with the same grass eating her whole life, chewing the same grass whole day every day. She is never bored. You never see any buffalo bored nor you see any buffalo laughing. Both those things are together. It needs intelligence to be bored, it needs intelligence to laugh.

Now, man has immense intelligence. And intelligence has grown with the ages. We are evolving.

In this state of evolution it is absolutely wrong to force one man and one woman to stick together for their whole life. That creates lesbianism, that creates homosexuality, because the woman is watching -- she will not allow you to talk to another woman and laugh with another woman and go to the movie with another woman. But if you are going with a friend, male friend, then there is no problem. But she does not know that you both are queens. This is a problem.

If your wife is going with some man you become jealous, suspicious, angry, outraged. But if she is going with a woman it is perfectly okay. But they may be lesbians.

So it is the responsibility of the society and the religion who are enforcing marriage and monogamy on people.

In my commune we take marriage as just a legal game, because the whole idiotic society is there with their laws. So we accept their laws but we are not serious about their laws. Their laws are absolutely inhuman, unintelligent.

So here there is every freedom. And it is good that once in a while your wife stays with some man and you stay with some other woman -- just for a change. It will not disrupt your marriage. In fact, it will make it stronger. And there is no need to hide it. You love each other, you give freedom to each other, and you would like each other to have more experiences of life.

You would like your wife to know more men because you are not all men. You have your individuality; other individuals have their own uniqueness. Loving them will make her richer. You will have a richer wife.

And she will have a richer husband because he has known so many women.

Experience is never bad. Bigger the experience the better.

So in my commune there is no problem. It is taken for granted that people get bored. But if you don't allow them, then they will find some substitute. They are intelligent. But that substitute will be a perversion.

Religious leaders, political leaders, are the criminals but they will not be punished. Homosexuals, who are simply victims, will be punished.

I call from California my people because California is the worst place right now.

Q:* IT IS A STRANGE PARADOX. WE IN CALIFORNIA HAD THOUGHT IT WAS AN

ENLIGHTENED POLICY TO INCORPORATE CITIES THAT HAD A LARGE VOTING POPULATION OF

GAY PEOPLE AND PROTECT THEIR CIVIL RIGHTS. NOW, THE L.A. CITY COUNCIL LAST WEEK

PASSED A CITY ORDINANCE, THAT MADE IT A FINABLE OFFENSE TO DISMISS AND THUS

ENDANGER THE CIVIL RIGHTS OF A PERSON WHO IS AFFLICTED WITH AIDS FROM ANY JOB, INCLUDING JOBS WHERE HE MAY BE HANDLING FOOD, DEALING WITH THE PUBLIC ON A PERSONAL LEVEL LIKE THAT. IT IS NATURALLY QUITE CONTROVERSIAL. WHAT DO YOU THINK

OF THAT?

A:* Before AIDS became known, all the homosexuals and the lesbians were thinking that they are more progressive, avant garde intellectuals. Heterosexuals are backward people just clinging to the biological heterosexual relationship. They have evolved higher. They are in a better intellectual position.

So they were proud. They were having conferences. They were publishing books, they were publishing periodicals, newspapers. And they were trying to prove that their way of sex is better than the ordinary kind.

the ordinary kind is the animal. It has nothing human in it.

But now they cannot say that. AIDS has proved that they were simply perverted. And they were not progressive, not intellectual. They were simply stupid and retarded.

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age they get married and they simply forget all about it.

But few people remain stuck there. Their mind never grows beyond their homosexual state. So they are retarded people, they are not progressive people.

Q:* IS THAT A HOPELESS RETARDATION?

A:* It can be helped.

Q:* I DON'T THINK YOU HAVE MANY GAY PEOPLE IN YOUR COMMUNE.

A:* Yes, and we are trying to help them. And we are trying to bring them back to heterosexuality.

Q:* IN 1979 THE AMERICAN PSYCHIATRIC ASSOCIATION DECLARED THAT HOMOSEXUALITY

WAS NOT A MEDICAL DISEASE, AND THE PRESUMPTION WAS THAT SINCE IT WAS A SEXUAL

PREFERENCE IT NEED NOT BE HELPED.

A:* In fact, all these psychiatric societies are not sciences either. So whatever they say should be understood a statement coming from some vested interest.

There are so many psychologies and so many psychotherapies and so many kinds of psychiatrists. It cannot be science. Science has to be one.

And all these people themselves, most of them are perverted. Their statements make no sense at all. Just look at this thing: that in comparison to any profession, psychologists go twice mad. Twice they commit suicide. Then madness and suicide, because it is committed by a psychiatrist, should not be a medical problem. And no profession can compete with them. They are doing double the job with... in comparison to any profession.

So in the first place I don't accept psychiatrists and psychologists as a science. And now with AIDS, they will have to swallow their own saliva that they have spit on their hands.

So tell them to swallow it and contradict your statement. It is not only a medical disease, it is an existential disease. It is pure death.

And you have been supporting it because homosexuality was growing and these were your patients. It was your vested interest. To say anything against homosexuals means losing your job, your profession. Now come out and say something in favor of AIDS. Then we will know whether you have any guts or not.

Gay people -- lesbians, homosexuals -- these constitute the major part of the patients of psychiatrists and psychologists. Now, these are clients and they are living on them. Naturally, their associations cannot condemn them.

But because they have not condemned these people, in my view they have condemned themselves as simply professionals interested in business, not interested in humanity and health.

California has been thinking itself that it is very enlightened state because more homosexuals, more lesbians, more women lib members, more Indian gurus and their followers. And all kinds of idiotic things claim to be therapies like primal therapy.

I have heard about one therapy in which hugging and kissing is the only methodology. I have heard of another therapy in which you act like an animal, naked on your four. You move in the room with your tongue hanging out, shouting like an animal, a wolf or a dog.

All these things -- Werner Erhard's est, in which the only important thing is that you have to sit six hours without pissing. Naturally it gives an enlightenment when you go to the bathroom! It is such a relief. And with two hundred fifty dollars, it is worth. Such a relief ordinarily you don't get. It is freely available, you can manage yourself. There is no need to join est.

And there are even more enlightened people who start pissing sitting there in their seats. Then it is even better relief because they don't care about anybody. They are freed of any respectability or anything.

But these idiotic things don't make any state or country or people enlightened. It simply means that people are rich enough, gullible enough, and there are always cunning people around to cheat you.

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When my secretary, Sheela, was searching a place for me I said that, "Not California. Anywhere is okay but not California, because all idiotic Indian gurus who don't have any hold in India, who don't have any intelligence -- I don't want to get mixed with that lot."

I have chosen Oregon because this poor state in the whole history has not known a single enlightened man.

Q:* PAUL BUNYAN?

A:* No.

Q:* YOU'VE TOLD ME THAT ONLY TWO SANNYASINS HAVE SO FAR COME UP WITH AIDS, ALTHOUGH FOUR MORE HAVE COME IN MAKING A TOTAL I PRESUME OF SIX AT THE HOSPICE.

CAN YOU CALL IT A HOSPICE, THE PLACE IN DESIDERATA WHERE THEY ARE?

A:* No, we are calling anything, because we don't want to discriminate them in any way.

Q:* BUT IT IS A PLACE WHERE THEY CAN COME TO SPEND THEIR FINAL DAYS?

A:* Yes. There they will be, but they can come into the commune and go to the disco and go to the restaurant, go to the meetings. They are not prevented anywhere because everywhere we are taking preventive measurements. Everybody going in the restaurant will have his hands sprayed by alcohol. All....

Q:* WHETHER OR NOT THEY HAVE AIDS.

A:* That doesn't matter. They have to. And anything they use for eating -- spoons -- which touch their saliva, will all go into total cleaning, sterilization. So there is no problem. But we don't want to separate them, that is inhuman.

We have given them a faraway place, but we will not call it a separate thing. It is part of the commune.

Q:* IF A PERSON HAS AIDS AND IS NOT A SANNYASIN, COULD HE COME TO THE RANCH AND

STAY IN THAT FARAWAY PLACE?

A:* That will not be possible.

Q:* I FIRST HEARD YOU DESCRIBE, LAST MONTH, THIS PROGRAM OF CARING FOR VICTIMS

OF AIDS WHO ARE SANNYASIN; THAT BECAUSE THESE PEOPLE HAD NOTHING TO LOSE THEY

COULD MAKE LOVE WITH EACH OTHER AND PERHAPS THROUGH THAT COULD BE CURED.

A:* They are allowed. They are allowed to have love with each other because nothing more can happen.

There is no harm. If something good happens, it may be a great revelation for the whole world. If nothing happens, they are going to die anyway.

And we are making arrangements for them to see films, to listen to talks, to read books. All that they have desired their whole life we are trying in every possible way to provide them, because that is their last time: six months, eight months, perhaps at the most two years.

And we are teaching them meditation simultaneously. That is something very essential because people go on postponing meditation and things like that for tomorrow. Today they have so many things that meditation goes on being postponed. But these people cannot postpone meditation for tomorrow. There is 1/08/07

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no tomorrow for them.

So we are teaching them meditation. If they can die meditatively, then their AIDS may have proved a blessing in disguise, because even the richest man cannot afford two years time with no work, rest, listening to beautiful music or swimming or going into the mountains, in the hills, in the forest, reading -- we have given them the best opportunity that is possible -- and meditate.

And they will meditate more intensely, more earnestly, because death is so close. And if they can become centered in their being -- that's what is meditation is -- then death will come but not to them, only to their body.

Then they will be able to experience death and experience at the same time the eternal source of life that moves on, that never dies.

So I would like anywhere, if there are special arrangements for AIDS people -- hospitals or AIDS homes

-- they should make it a point that these are not sick people, these are on the verge of death. They don't need medicine, they need meditation.

And you will be surprised to know that both the words come from the same root: medicine and meditation. Medicine is for the body to heal and meditation is for the soul to heal. But both mean the same in the original root.

If there is no medicine, at least give them meditation.

Q:* HOW IS YOUR HEALTH?

A:* My health is really great.

Q:* YOU COMPLAINED LESS THAN A YEAR AGO THAT YOU WERE AILING FROM A VARIETY

OF CAUSES.

A:* No. I have been suffering because my sickness is not something that I can say I am cured of it. It is allergy, so it can any moment erupt.

Q:* WHAT SYMPTOMS DOES IT TAKE WHEN IT DOES?

A:* Dust can create it, perfume -- most dangerous. And there are few things which I should not eat --

any things which have acids.

So just if I avoid them -- and in the commune everybody is aware of my trouble, so nobody will use perfume, nobody will come close to me if he has been smoking. Nobody will come to me if he has been perspiring, because any smell is enough to provoke. And what it does, it starts breathing trouble. My breathing becomes abnormal, difficult.

And then coughing starts. Then the coughing will continue at least for two hours to six hours, and it almost is a problem in the night, then I cannot sleep. So this disease is such that I can never say I am cured.

And I can never say that I am sick, only once in a while when something happens I am sick for few hours.

Otherwise I am perfectly okay.

Second problem I had was my back. So my people have arranged for that too, because no medical treatment helped me. In India we had called experts from England who had worked their whole life only on back, but they also said that, "This is strange."

And I knew that they will not help and I told them that, "The problem is, it is not a sudden... somebody slips and falls down and the back comes out. Then you can fix it. My problem is that I have been sitting this kind of chair for almost thirty years. The chair changes but the shape remains the same exactly. So the back has got a certain curve. So if that curve is disturbed, then I am in trouble."

I cannot sit on your chair. It is more comfortable but my back will not fit with it. So I can use only one car. I have used all the cars, the best in the world; just one car, one of the models of Rolls Royce, the Silver Spur, its seat fits with me perfectly. It is not their costliest car. Their costliest is Corniche*. Then Carmargue*. And then the third is Silver Spur. So I tried from Corniche* -- they didn't work, my trouble 1/08/07

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started. But with Silver Spur it has settled completely.

So up to '89 I can use it at least, because '89 they are going to change the model. I have persuaded the president that, "Don't change the seat," and he has to listen to me because I am the only person in the whole world who has ninety Rolls Royces.

Q:* WHY DO YOU HAVE SUCH AN ABUNDANCE? SURELY YOU CAN ONLY RIDE IN ONE AT A TIME.

A:* I believe in abundance.

Q:* ISN'T THAT A BIT OF OVERKILL, THOUGH?

A:* These ninety are not yet enough. My people are trying to arrange for three hundred sixty-five, so every day they can give me a new car.

Q:* PEOPLE IN LOS ANGELES WILL TRULY APPRECIATE THAT. YOU KNOW, THEY SAY THAT

THERE'S MORE ROLLS ROYCES IN LOS ANGELES THAN THERE ARE....

A:* Yes, there are not in Los Angeles or anywhere.

So ordinarily I am perfectly okay if I take care, and I take care. Just the problem was that I was moving in the masses, going outside. That was creating trouble so I had to stop. Now I live in the commune and everybody is aware of my problem, so everybody keeps clean, non-smelly.

Q:* SOME OF MY FRIENDS WHO ARE NOT SANNYASIN, PARTICULARLY BECAUSE

CALIFORNIA IS SUCH A HEALTH-CONSCIOUS PLACE, SUCH A ROBUST, ACTIVE SPORTS-MINDED

PLACE -- POSSIBLY BECAUSE OF THE CLIMATE, THEY FIND IT HARD TO RESOLVE THE FACT

THAT YOU HAVE POOR PHYSICAL HEALTH AND YET ARE ENLIGHTENED.

A:* In fact, they don't understand enlightenment. Anybody who has been enlightened had poor health, for the simple reason because enlightenment is something which goes beyond ordinary biology, physiology, chemistry. It is a great disturbance in your whole natural system.

The ordinary man, his consciousness is completely in tune with his biology. But once you become enlightened, you have a distinction between your biology and your consciousness.

Ordinary man follows biology, which is part of nature. It is healthier. The enlightened man follows consciousness, which is not part of nature, so many times he has to go against biology, against physiology.

But he cannot go against his consciousness. That creates the rift.

So no enlightened people has ever been healthy.

Q:* COULD YOU GIVE SOME EXAMPLES OF THE CONSCIOUSNESS GOING AGAINST BIOLOGY

AND NATURAL INSTINCT AND THAT SORT OF...?

A:* The ordinary man has no awareness that he has something in him which is not part of the body yet in the body.

And that space which is not part of the body and yet in the body is your real being. So once you get to it, it becomes your direction for everything. Then body cannot dominate you, physiology cannot dominate you, biology cannot dominate you.

And they go on in their blind way. So in fact now you are on two tracks, and to keep them together is the problem that creates unhealth, sickness.

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Buddha was sick and was continuously having a private doctor with him. Wherever he was going the doctor was with him -- and the best physician of the times. One king has presented his own physician to him, that, "Take care of him because he is in a fragile state." A small misbalance and he will be out of the body.

The strings between the being and the body become very loose as you become enlightened. The old tightness is no more there. Just a slight shock and the being and the body will fall apart.

So it is a wrong notion around. Many people think like that, that the enlightened person should be perfectly healthy. They don't understand. That means people like Mohammed Ali should be enlightened.

Q:* YET THERE ARE SOME YOGA TEACHERS, PARTICULARLY IN....

A:* They are not enlightened. Not a single yoga teacher is enlightened. Yoga teachers are healthy, but yoga teachers are just experts in an old gymnastics, nothing else. It does not lead to enlightenment or to self-realization or anything. But it certainly leads to better health.

Q:* DO YOU PRACTICE HATHA YOGA?

A:* No.

Q:* I UNDERSTAND THAT YOU SWIM FOR YOUR HEALTH.

A:* I swim.

Q:* HOW OFTEN AND WHERE AND WHAT DO YOU WEAR?

A:* I used to... I don't wear anything. I used to swim twice, but for two months I had to stop it because my physicians became afraid. The water going into my ear was creating trouble and my drums may get hurt or some trouble will arise. And it is possible because I have been swimming from my very childhood for hours. It may have damaged my drums.

So for two months I have not been swimming and my pool is there, Olympic size, just for me. That's how I live, in abundance.

Q:* AND (INAUDIBLE)....

A:* But if you want to swim in it, you are welcome. Just you will not have to wear anything.

Q:* I WOULD ENJOY IT, TO USE THAT INVITATION, SIR.

A:* Yes. Okay? You can come. My photographers will be there.

Q:* I HAVE A SHORT LIST OF PROMINENT AMERICAN PEOPLE, AND I WAS HOPING THAT

YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO GIVE JUST A BRIEF IMPRESSION, ONE LINE OR SO, ABOUT EACH, IF I MIGHT RUN IT DOWN. FOR INSTANCE, WHAT DO YOU THINK OF JOHNNY CARSON?

A:* I don't think of idiots at all.

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Q:* NATHAN PRITIKIN?

A:* Have you collected all the idiots in their names?

Q:* I BEG YOUR PARDON?

A:* Have you collected the names of all the idiots?

Q:* PERHAPS.

A:* Mm, it seems.

Q:* JERRY FALWELL?

A:* They are the same thing. I don't think about any, and for five years I have not read any book, I have not read any magazine, any newspaper, because for fifty years I have been reading so much that finally I saw that ninety-nine percent is rubbish and to find one percent you have to move into ninety-nine percent garbage. I stopped it.

And as far as that one percent is concerned, I have it. So there is no problem.

Q:* DO YOU WATCH MOVIES?

A:* Once in a while if my people feel that some movie is worth seeing. Very rarely.

Q:* HAVE YOU ANY FAVORITES? ANY MOVIES THAT YOU'VE ENJOYED? OR ACTORS?

A:* Anything that is really great literature, great art. For example, I enjoyed Dostoevsky's Brothers Karamazov.

Q:* THE DAVID BROOKS PRODUCTION.

A:* Yes. I have enjoyed the book, I have enjoyed the film too. I have enjoyed the film, Ten Commandments.

Q:* THE CECIL B. DE MILLE VERSION?

A:* Yes.

Q:* THE ONE WITH CHARLTON HESTON?

A:* Yes.

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Q:* OR THE EARLY... HE DID TWO, YOU KNOW. HE DID ONE THAT WAS SILENT, I BELIEVE.

A:* I don't know which one it was. But whichever it was, it was really done with great insight and art, and my people had brought so they must have brought the best one.

So once in a while, if they see.... And they are seeing. They have movies here and they have television, so whenever they see something good they bring to me. Otherwise I am not interested.

Q:* HAVE YOU SEEN THESE RECENTLY, BECAUSE THEY ARE AT LEAST TOP OF THE CHARTS

IN TERMS OF AMERICAN POPULARITY.

A:* I have not seen them.

Q:* NEITHER WOODY ALLEN, FOR INSTANCE? OR PRINCE? HOW ABOUT JESSE JACKSON?

NOW, HE'S A POLITICIAN, AND SURELY....

A:* Just I have heard the name, but I know nothing about. The Prince -- I think I have seen that film and the book. And another book similar to The Prince, which was really my autobiography: The Difficulties of an Ordinary God. That I enjoyed very much.

Q:* HAVE PEOPLE BEEN SEEKING THE MOVIE RIGHTS FOR THAT BOOK FROM YOU, SIR?

A:* Yes, that... certainly.

Q:* IS IT BEING MADE BY SANNYASINS?

A:* No. It is not made by a sannyasin. It is some outside production. But it simply is my difficulty. I am so ordinary and yet I have found in ordinariness the greatest blessedness, the most beautiful experience of divineness.

I don't believe in God but I have experienced godliness, certainly -- as a quality, not as a person. Every enlightened person experiences godliness, not God. And those who claim that they have experienced God simply indicate they have not reached to enlightenment yet. They are still hallucinating about a God of their belief. They are still projecting a Christ, a Krishna. But that is their projection.

In the moment of enlightenment there is no projection. It is absolute nothingness -- but not empty.

Utterly full of light, love, blissfulness.

So I enjoyed that film the most. It is not a great film. It is just a small film but tremendously humorous --

the difficulties of an ordinary God. I would suggest you to see it.

Q:* WHERE MIGHT I FIND A PRINT?

A:* You will find anywhere. If I can find it in this desert, you can find it anywhere.

Q:* I UNDERSTAND THAT WHEN THE UNIVERSITY BEGAN WITH YOU IN POONA, SOME

CALLED IT ESALEN EAST. ESALEN IS A GROWTH CENTER IN CALIFORNIA. HOW DOES YOUR

UNIVERSITY DIFFER FROM CALIFORNIA GROWTH CENTERS?

A:* Absolutely, because the founder of Esalen had come to be initiated in Poona to become a sannyasin.

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And he became a sannyasin. He could see the difference, that what they were doing were just intellectual work, and what was happening in Poona was existential and experiential work.

In Esalen there was nothing like meditation, and meditation has been my center of teaching. Nothing else is needed. One simply has to come to a space within oneself where there is no thought, no feeling, but utter silence, and that comes through a very simple method: by watching your thought process.

So there are three steps in it. Start from the easiest: watch your body movements. For example, I can watch my movement of the hand. Either I can do it mechanically or I can do it with full awareness. So walking, eating, swimming, doing anything with your body -- chopping wood -- just remain watchful. Don't get lost in the activity. As if you are somebody else standing by the side, not the person who is chopping wood. You are seeing the person as chopping wood.

Once you get accustomed with the body, then the second step is very easy. Then sit silently once in a while and watch the process of your thoughts, the constant traffic on the screen of your mind. The method is the same: just watch. Don't judge, don't condemn, don't evaluate. Whatever is passing just see.

And the strangest thing is, if you don't judge and can just see, thoughts start becoming less and less.

There are gaps. A thought comes and for few moments there is no thought. And then the gaps start becoming bigger and bigger.

When the gap can be as big as forty-eight minutes, then you can move to the third step. Then there is no difficulty at all.

The third step is to watch your feelings.

So one is for body, one for your head and the third is for your heart. The process is the same.

When forty-eight minutes your feelings are no more there, a quantum leap happens on its own accord: the fourth step. But you don't take it. It happens. Suddenly you find yourself standing in the innermost core of your being. And it is so full of light, so full of delight, so fragrant, that you cannot conceive anything can be more than this.

You have come home.

This was missing in Esalen. There was no meditation. Therapy alone is superficial.

Q:* THE PROGNOSIS AT YOUR UNIVERSITY IN MY PARTICULAR CASE WAS THAT I HAD THE

CALIFORNIA SYNDROME. I WAS ONE WHO PROFESSED A GREAT EAGERNESS TO CHANGE, TO

TRANSFORM MYSELF, TO DROP THE MASK, TO DISCOVER MY ORIGINAL FACE BUT THOUGH I PROCLAIMED THAT, I WAS UNWILLING SIMPLY TO DO IT. I FIND MYSELF STILL ON THE CUSP.

HOW CAN I MOVE?

A:* The best way will be, just come for an unlimited time. Don't decide the time limit. And just be here.

Don't do therapies. Just work with the sannyasins, meditate, enjoy, dance, and forget all about that you want to do, that you want to drop the mask, that you want to change. Forget all about it. Just live in the moment here for few days. And don't decide how many days, because your decision of days beforehand will be a hindrance.

So just come and be here, and when it happens you can go. It can happen the next day, it may take one month. It all depends on you, how quickly you can get absorbed into the commune and its work and forget about this self-transformation. That is one of the most hindering thing.

The more you want to transform, the more difficult it will be, because who it is who wants to transform?

It is your ego, and ego has to be dropped.

Now, that's the very crux of the whole process. The ego wants to change, the ego wants to transform, the ego wants to become new, the ego wants to be enlightened -- for the ego is the only barrier.

So what had to be done is, put aside all enlightenment, all change, all transformation, and just drown yourself in the work with the commune. Suddenly one day you will find what you have been finding and trying to find is there. And you may be dancing on any street because you have found it.

There is a saying in Jesus: Seek and ye shall find. And I say to my people: Seek and ye shall never find.

Do not seek and it is there.

It is always there. It is because of seeking we go on missing.

Jesus says: Ask and it shall be given. I say: Never ask, otherwise it shall never be given to you.

Be silent and it is there.

Nobody gives it to you. You have it, you have brought it with you as your intrinsic part.

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Jesus says: Knock and the door shall be opened unto you. I say to my people: Don't knock, because the doors are already open.

If you knock, that will prove only two things: either you are standing before a wall or you are blind. But one thing is certain: you can't see that the doors are open. They have never been closed.

Q:* MUST ONE COME TO THE COMMUNE TO DO THIS? IT SEEMS A HEAVY PRICE TO GIVE

UP THE WORLD AS I KNOW IT TO ENTER THE ALTERNATIVE SOCIETY.

A:* Whenever it feels that it is worth giving anything, only then you can get it. If you feel great price is there, then wait. Soon you will know there is nothing except frustration and AIDS. Just wait.

Good.

The Last Testament, Vol 2

Chapter #25

Chapter title: None

15 September 1985 pm in Sanai Grove

Archive code: 8509155

ShortTitle: LAST225

Audio:

Yes

Video:

Yes

Length: 101 mins

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

INTERVIEW WITH TOM GREENING, HUMANISTIC PSYCHOLOGY MAGAZINE, LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA ANSWER:* Glad to meet you.

QUESTION:* THANK YOU FOR THIS OPPORTUNITY. I'VE ENJOYED THE RANCH AND THE

PEOPLE TODAY, AND YOUR DISCOURSE THIS MORNING. YOU SEE BEFORE YOU A, PERHAPS A BLUE SOAP BUBBLE.

PREPARING TO TALK WITH YOU, I THOUGHT PERHAPS I SHOULD READ SOME OF YOUR BOOKS

AGAIN OR DO SOME STUDYING; INSTEAD THE NEW NEW YORKER MAGAZINE CAME AND I THOUGHT NO, I'D REALLY RATHER LOOK AT CARTOONS AND UH... GOING THROUGH THERE I CAME ACROSS ONE BY GEORGE PRICE. I'LL GIVE IT TO YOU.

IS THAT YOUR TWIN BROTHER IN THAT PICTURE?

A:* That's great! Now you can ask your questions!

Q:* FOR THE AUDIENCE, I THINK THE CARTOON SAYS, THE MAN IS SAYING TO HIS WIFE,

"YES, IT'S TRUE. THERE'S NO BOTTOM TO MY BAG OF TRICKS."

WELL, IT'S AN AUSPICIOUS DAY, WHAT WITH OUR DISCOURSE THIS MORNING ABOUT POWER

AND SHEELA. I'VE BEEN INVOLVED IN MANY ORGANIZATIONS, NONE OF THEM AS

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FASCINATING TO ME OR AS COMPLEX AND AS PERHAPS FULL OF HEART AND LOVE AS THIS

RANCH. I'VE BEEN IN GROUP PRACTICE, THE SAME GROUP OF PEOPLE FOR TWENTY-SEVEN

YEARS WHERE WE TRY TO DEAL WITH POWER AND EQUALITY AND CREATIVITY, WITH SOME

SUCCESS -- WE'VE SURVIVED. I'VE BEEN IN A FAMILY, I'VE BEEN INVOLVED WITH GROWTH

CENTERS -- ESALEN SOMEWHAT IN ITS EARLY YEARS AND OTHERS -- AND STILL RETAINED

THAT PERHAPS NAIVE CONCEPT OF DEMOCRACY OF THIS DISTRIBUTION OF POWER, CHECKS

AND BALANCES, INTERNAL CORRECTIVE PROCESSES, TO PREVENT POWER FROM BEING

FOCUSSED, CAPTURED FOR TOO LONG BY ANY ONE PERSON OR GROUP OF PEOPLE.

WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE RANCH AND THE CONSCIOUSNESS THAT WOULD IN THE FUTURE

PERHAPS MORE RAPIDLY DEAL WITH NON-PRODUCTIVE POWER CONSOLIDATION, THAT

WOULD MORE RAPIDLY CONFRONT THE OVERCONCENTRATION OF POWER OR THE MISUSE

OF POWER, THE PROCESSES WITHIN THE PEOPLE THEMSELVES THAT WOULD CORRECT THAT

BEFORE AN INDIVIDUAL LEFT THE RANCH OR BEFORE YOU HAD TO INTERVENE?

A:* The human mind is so old... its conditioning is of thousands of years. It takes a tremendous effort to detach yourself from the conditionings of the past. They are not only your past -- that is a very small fraction; beyond your past is the collective past of humanity, which is almost infinite. And in this whole past you have been programmed -- programmed in such a way that lust for power has become almost natural.

If you get the power, then you want more. And there is no end to more. And the more power you want, the more people are going to lose their freedom. Your power is their loss of freedom. If you become ultimately powerful, they will become just slaves. So the real struggle is between the instinct of power and the value of freedom.

It is possible to prevent it happening in a small commune like this. Simple methods can change it. What you are suggesting is a ultimate change -- change of their awareness: they become so conscious that no lust for power can raise its head in their psyche. That is a goal of all spiritual growth, but it will happen when it will happen. Meanwhile, we have to take temporary steps. For example, decentralization of power; it should not be in one hand, it should be in many hands. It should not be concentrated, but diluted.

There should be no hierarchy. Whatever one is doing -- he may be a doctor, a professor, a president of a corporation, a farmer, a gardener -- these are functions, they are not definitions of your individuality. The moment you come out of the classroom you are no more a professor. You are a professor only while you are professing. You are a teacher only while you are teaching. The moment the function ceases, you are a simple human being. The function is not you. What you do is not your being.

This is my approach... and it is working. Just because I was silent for three and half years, and I was not in contact with the day to day activities of the commune, that Sheela could get into a power trip. But that too has been of immense significance, for the whole commune to learn something -- that how people can go on becoming more and more attached to power and how power goes on corrupting them... and it is a vicious circle. Power corrupts you, then corruption needs more power, otherwise you will be exposed, more power needs more corruption....

Q:* WHAT PREVENTED THE SANNYASINS ON THEIR OWN FROM DEALING WITH THAT

EARLIER?

A:* There were many problems. First, the sannyasins here have not gathered for any political reason.

They have come to me to be just in my presence, in my silence, and to learn ways how to be silent and more conscious.

Q:* BUT MEANWHILE THEY ARE LIVING IN A POLITICAL WORLD THAT CAN HARM THEM

AND SO THEY MUST BECOME POLITICAL AND....

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to be harmed, and not ready to harm anybody.

These people have not come here to harm anybody. They have just come to live silently, and seek, search, whatever is their reality. So because they were all focussed on this program, it was possible for Sheela and her group to go on doing things and nobody bothered about it. If it was a political group, then there would have been conflicts, there would have been elections and there would have been fights, and she would have been thrown long ago before. But because these people are not any way power oriented, and they were thinking that whatever Sheela is doing she is doing on my instructions. That's what she was telling them.

Certainly she was receiving few instructions from me, but it was at her discretion what instruction to use, what not to use, and it was in her hands to manage any instruction that I have not given.

Just today I have come to know that she was doing exactly what Nixon was doing: she has bugged houses and you will be surprised -- my house, my bedroom!

Q:* THERE WAS A LEADERSHIP VACUUM AND....

A:* Yes.

Q:*... SHE FILLED IT. AND THAT ALWAYS HAPPENS WHEN THERE'S A VACUUM: SOMEONE

WILL FILL IT. IT'S SIMPLE.

A:* No, but it has not harmed anybody. She simply befooled herself. Nobody is harmed by her bugging or taping peoples' conversations, because these people and their conversations on telephone are either simple gossips or some loving words to a friend.... Taping them is simply stupid. They are not plotting any conspiracy. But people who are power oriented are paranoid; they are always afraid that somebody is going to take over their place.

Otherwise, bugging my room was absolutely stupid, because she was the only one who used to come there -- just for her work, if something was needed as advice. There was no need to bug it, but she must have been afraid: perhaps somebody else enters there without her knowing, informs me about what is going on.... Just paranoia! These people are not living happily -- they are simply trembling inside, continuously afraid and looking everywhere with suspicion. And my people are meditating, doing work, enjoying, dancing, singing -- they don't have anything to bother about. That's why she could carry on for three and a half years.

Just now it became difficult for her, because I started speaking. My speaking created a trouble.

Q:* THE DAY WILL COME WHEN YOU WILL STOP SPEAKING AGAIN -- WILL YOUR

SANNYASINS THEN HAVE MOVED SPIRITUALLY, POLITICALLY, WHATEVER WAY, TO WHERE

THEY CAN HANDLE THAT KIND OF PROBLEM?

A:* I am not going to stop speaking until I am dead! And who knows? -- I may speak even after that!

Q:* BUT IN CASE YOU DON'T....

A:* Just old habit!

Q:* OR THEY MAY HEAR YOU SPEAKING EVEN AFTER DEATH....

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A:* Yes!

Q:*... WHETHER YOU DO OR NOT.

A:* But I will prepare them... and they are preparing -- this has been a good experience for them, that this should not happen again, that they should not be political, but that they should be aware that they are not being politically cheated, that somebody does not become -- on their account -- and takes advantage.

This will not happen now. I will prepare them for that too, that they should keep an eye.

Decentralization of power into many peoples hands will be one of the basic things. Second, the people should be taught that they do their meditations, they rejoice their life, they need not worry too much about, but they should keep an eye. It is their life and nobody should become so powerful that he starts interfering.

Now this is against human freedom: to tape somebody's phone, to bug somebody's room -- this is inhuman and ugly. And that too, of people who love you, who are not against! There is no political party here.

Q:* WERE YOU... BUT PEOPLE DO THAT, WE KNOW THEY DO THAT. WERE YOU SURPRISED?

A:* No. I am not surprised. I am never surprised....

Q:* UH HUH.

A:* Because I know human mind so clearly, that it can do any stupid thing -- there is no need to surprise.

Q:* I GUESS MY HOPE IS THAT BY KNOWING THAT PEOPLE WILL DO ANY STUPID, EGO-ORIENTED, POWER TRIP OR PARANOID TRIP THAT THEN WE CAN SOMETIMES DESIGN

STRATEGIES IN ADVANCE TO PREVENT THAT FROM HAPPENING.

A:* I will be doing it. It will be prevented -- it won't happen again.

Q:* DECENTRALIZATION OF POWER IS ONE WAY -- OTHERS WAYS OF?

A:* People have to... I am now going to constantly make them aware and alert. I am going to help them not to ignore what people who are in power are doing and I am putting in power people who have simply no ambition, who have been connected with me and I know them -- they have no ambition of any kind. In fact, unwillingly they are taking the post. And my third idea is that we will be rotating. There is no need for power to remain in one hand for a long period. That the person starts taking it for granted -- that it is his.

So rotate power, change people -- and it is good: we are doing that rotation in other fields. The professors are doing gardening, some gardener who has been a professor is back in the university, some therapist is in the carpenter's workshop and some carpenter -- my own carpenter who has made this chair --

he is a Ph.D.: he can any day go to the university and be the vice-chancellor.

So we are doing that in every field, just we were not touching the power elite for the simple reason that there were so many complications with government, with legal courts, so we wanted the people to deal who know, who have been dealing, who have been going to the court, but now we will take that risk. It is better to take the risk rather than give somebody an opportunity to become an egoist.

It is against his spiritual growth to give him the opportunity to become an egoist.

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Q:* I ASSUME THAT THE ROTATION OF ROLE DOES NOT INCLUDE YOURSELF?

A:* Hmm? I am not in any position, so the rotation is impossible. I don't hold any position. I am not even a member of the commune. I am not a voter. I live outside the city. I am just an outsider and I have been an outsider everywhere -- in my own country I was an outsider, in my own family I was an outsider --

to be an outsider seems to be my fate.

Q:* WHO WILL MAKE THE APPOINTMENTS THOUGH, OF THE NEW LEADERS THAT ARE TO

BE ROTATED?

A:* There are councils. I can just suggest to the councils my ideas, then it is up to them to function accordingly or they can decide on their own. I can simply give them my advice. I cannot dictate anybody.

Q:* AND YOU FEEL THAT THEY ARE NOW SUFFICIENTLY ENLIGHTENED OR

SELF-EMPOWERED THAT THEY CAN MAKE THEIR OWN WISE DECISIONS?....

A:* They can... they can, certainly.

Q:* WITHOUT BEING TOO SWAYED BY YOUR RECOMMENDATIONS OR OPINIONS?

A:* No. They can, because they were the people who were not supportive* of Sheela and her fascist group. They were in the group....

Q:* BUT YESTERDAY THEY WERE NOT STRONG ENOUGH TO REMOVE SHEELA -- TOMORROW

THEY WILL BE STRONG ENOUGH?

A:* No. There was no question of removal. They had no idea that Sheela can be removed. Now they know it, but they were ready. And when Sheela asked them that would they like to go with her, they simply refused. They were simply feeling nauseous and sick of her behavior. Those who were with her have left with her. It is good. It is a good cleaning process. And those who were against the whole process that she was doing, only have left behind.

So now these people are more reliable that they will not allow anybody to do anything in the same way.

And I am telling them that now power should be a rotation thing. Whenever you feel somebody is getting too much interested in power, change immediately.

Q:* I HOPE IT WORKS.

A:* Yes, we can only hope -- what works, nobody knows.

Q:* SOMEONE, PERHAPS IT WAS EZRA POUND, ONCE DEFINED A SLAVE AS SOMEONE WHO

WAITS FOR SOMEONE ELSE TO SET THEM FREE, AND THAT SOUNDS A LITTLE BIT LIKE THE

SANNYASINS HAD TO WAIT FOR YOU TO GRANT THEM THE AUTHORITY, PERMISSION, TO

EXERCISE MORE SELF-GOVERNING POWER.

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moment I said, they immediately understood: they danced in the streets as if they have come out of a concentration camp. All that they needed was just a little awareness that that too is your work, to keep alert, that nobody becomes dictatorial, that your freedom is not interfered.

And Sheela seems to be really insane; in fact all power-oriented people are a little insane. A sane person would not like to enslave anybody.

Just today I have come to know that Sheela and her group tried even to poison my physician. They wanted to poison to other persons who were close to me, for the simple reason that nobody should be close to me, except Sheela. These three persons were in the way.

Q: THIS DID NOT SURPRISE YOU?

A:* No.

Q:* IT SURPRISES ME.

A:* No. It surprises you but it didn't surprise me, because it is simple arithmetic -- it can be understood: anybody who wants to be dictatorial, who wants me not to be approachable to anybody else, would think of this thing. My physician was able to approach me, to check me -- he could inform me about what is going on; my caretaker who brings food for me -- she may bring information; my dentist who sometimes works on my teeth may tell me something. So these three persons were only, who were in any way capable of informing me.

Q:* AND PART OF YOUR AWARENESS WAS THE THOUGHT, "HMM, PERHAPS SHEELA MIGHT

WANT TO POISON THEM?"

A:* That never occurred to me. I was never thinking that....

Q:* THEN YOU WERE SURPRISED.

A:* No. I was not surprised. I was simply sad -- sad that a woman from whom we expect more loving heart, should think in terms of killing people. I was simply sad -- sad for Sheela, that she must be in a mess.

The very idea is sickening. I am not angry at her, because I can understand these things can happen to power-oriented people.

Q:* WE COULD LOOK AT THIS EVENT IN TERMS OF WHAT SOME PEOPLE CALL SYSTEMS

THEORY AND ASK IN WHAT WAY IS SHEELA A PRODUCT OF ALL OF US, HOW ARE WE ALL --

INCLUDING YOURSELF....

A:* That's true.

Q:*... RESPONSIBLE FOR SHEELA?

A:* In a way we are all responsible for everybody, not only for Sheela, but for Adolf Hitler, for Ronald Reagan, for Joseph Stalin. We are responsible for our whole humanity, because we are part of it and in some way or other we contribute to it.

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Q:* AND MY SADNESS ALSO AND MY CONCERN IS THAT WE NEVER SEEM TO LEARN FAST

ENOUGH TO ANTICIPATE AND HEAL THE PARANOIA OR POWER DRIVES THAT ARE

EVERYWHERE AND SO WHEN SOMEONE AS YOURSELF TRIES TO COME INTO THE WORLD WITH

LOVE OR CREATIVITY, THEN THROUGHOUT HISTORY IT BUMPS UP AGAINST....

A:* It is true and we not only are slow in learning, we are almost incapable of learning.

Q:* HISTORY SEEMS TO....

A:*... because we have not learned anything for these two thousand years. Our values and qualities of being human have not grown. We may have become more polished, more sophisticated, we may not crucify Jesus Christ, we may give him a good electric chair, but that makes no difference: we are the same people!

Q:* HOW WILL YOUR MESSAGE AND YOUR PRACTICAL STRATEGY IN THE WORLD BE MORE

DURABLE, MORE WISE?

A:* No. I never think about the future. My concern is not future.

Q:* ONLY YOU HAVE SECURITY FORCES TO PRESERVE A LITTLE BIT LONGER THE FUTURE.

A:* They were not my security forces. The commune thinks about the future -- naturally -- because they are going to live here longer than me, their children will be here, living longer than me. I have no interest in future. My interest is totally in the present. My interest are my people and whatever I can share with them --

my experience -- and in whatever way I can help them to become more conscious. The whole thing is: how to deprogram them of the past and make them conscious in the present.

If my work is done in the present, it will take care of the future too, because future does not come from anywhere else; it comes out of the present. Your present grows into future, so if you are taking care of a rose bush now, without bothering about the flowers, if your care is enough the flowers will come in their time -- you need not bother about them. A person who thinks too much about flowers, perhaps may neglect the care of the plant.

My interest is my people, who are with me and whatever I can do for them, I am ready to do.

Q:* IN A RELATED WAY I HAVE... ALSO FEEL SOME CONCERN OR SADNESS ABOUT THE

RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN YOUR PEOPLE AND THE PEOPLE OF OREGON, AND WISH THAT

THERE BE A PROCESS THERE ALSO THAT COULD BE HEALING OR DE-ESCALATING -- DO YOU

SEE THAT HAPPENING?

A:* It is almost difficult, for the simple reason that I am not interested in converting people. Neither I am interested that the well should run after the thirsty, because that may make the thirsty even more afraid.

A well coming towards you, I don't think you will stand in your place -- you will run away!

So my idea is the thirsty has to come to the well.

Q:* WELL, WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT CONVERSION; WE'RE JUST TALKING ABOUT SOME

LIVE AND LET LIVE.

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A:* That is happening -- there is no problem in it: we are living, they are living -- there is no problem in it. And we are very happily living. They are in worries and unnecessary tension, frightened, hostile -- for no reason at all -- when we have been welcoming them that "You should come and see what we are doing here," nobody comes -- even the governor has not the guts to come here. Three times we have invited him.

He speaks against us without knowing anything about us. The attorney general declares our city illegal without ever thinking that we have changed a desert into a oasis, where five thousand people are living self-sufficiently. Perhaps desert was according to the land-use laws. To turn it into an oasis, create enough food for five thousand people -- enough vegetables, enough milk, and everything, make houses for five thousand peoples with all modern facilities -- the whole commune fully, centrally air-conditioned....

We have invited that, "You should come and see and if you see that this city is not doing right or your land is misused, you just tell us -- we are ready to change. We have no problem. If you say that this is not the right use of the land, you show us: otherwise we can show you what is right use of land. Because all your ranches around are poor and they have been working on their ranches for hundreds of years. And we have been working only for four years on this ranch and this is the worst ranch perhaps in the whole Oregon, because for fifty years nobody was ready to purchase it.

Q:* BUT YOU KNOW WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MORE THAN LAND-USE; WE'RE TALKING

ABOUT ATTACHED, VULNERABLE EGOS. AND I'M HOPING THAT THERE MIGHT BE SOME NEW

STRATEGIES THAT YOU WOULD HAVE, PERHAPS WITH SHEELA GONE, THAT WOULD DEAL

WITH THOSE IN SOME NEW WAYS.

A:* We will simply go on doing our thing... and just by our turning the desert, making our people happier, our laughter is going to reach. And perhaps one day they may come and to understand, and if they don't understand, that is their problem.

We are not worried and it is not a problem to us.

Q:* WELL, IT DOES OCCUPY A LOT OF TIME AND ENERGY AND MONEY....

A:* No.

Q:*... FIGHTING THESE BATTLES.

A:* No problem, because four hundred sannyasins we have who are law experts, the biggest law firm in the world.

Q:* WOULDN'T THEY RATHER BE....

A:* So they....

Q:*... WOULDN'T THEY RATHER BE LAUGHING THAN DOING LAW THOUGH?

A:* They are enjoying, they are enjoying and we are going to fight and we are winning the cases, and finally we are to prove this, that we are strangers here, but we love American constitution as something immensely valuable for humanity. And we are fighting for the constitution against the Americans -- this is such an excitement project....

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Q:* I SEE.

A:*... that we are going to do it.

Q:* THAT APPEALS TO ME, THAT STRATEGY APPEALS TO ME MORE THAN THE

NAME-CALLING.

A:* Name-calling does not mean anything.

Q:* WELL, BUT IT STIRS UP NEEDLESS OPPOSITION SOMETIMES.

A:* That is helpful. I know my business! If you don't disturb them, you are ignored. They understand certain language -- that language has to be used against them.

Q:* AND AGAIN YOU WERE NOT SURPRISED AT HOW MUCH OPPOSITION AND PARANOIA YOU RAN INTO IN OREGON?

A:* We are not surprised for anything. It is just proves that Oregon must be the most stupid state in America. A small community of five thousand people and the whole state of Oregon should be afraid of us.... What we can do?

Q:* BUT YOU KNOW WHAT YOU CAN DO. YOU CAN SHAKE THEIR WORLD APART.

A:* That we are going to do! That we are going to do. And if they want that we should not do that, then better they come to their senses. And rather being hostile, be just friendly. We are friendly, we have no hostility against them.

Q:* NO INTENTIONAL HOSTILITY, BUT YOU CONSTITUTE A THREAT TO THEIR ATTACHED

EGOS.

A:* That we will continue to do. Unless they start seeing the fact that they have to come here and understand us, we are going to hurt their egos more and more and we are going to drag them up to the supreme court and we are going to expose them throughout the world. I am using the whole modern media....

I was silent so they were not in much trouble -- they will be now. For one month continuously I have been giving every day interviews from all over the world -- newspapers, magazines, radios, televisions --

and this program is going to continue till we have exhausted every media, small or big around the world.

This small community certainly can create trouble for them.

Q:* IN ADDITION TO THE CREATIVE AND EFFECTIVE USE OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL LAW

AND OF THE MEDIA, I GUESS I'M WANTING TO HEAR MORE ABOUT -- NOT WEAKNESS OR

COMPROMISE -- BUT MORE ABOUT SOME COMPASSION AND LOVE FOR THOSE PEOPLE WHO

ARE HAVING TROUBLE ADJUSTING TO THE CHANGE.

A:* We have immense compassion for them.

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Q:* DO THEY KNOW THAT? DO THEY FEEL THAT?

A:* That is up to them. I can love you, you may not feel it. That does not mean that I don't love you.

Q:* BUT THEN THERE ARE SO MANY....

A:* There is no necessity law that one person loves another, the other immediately feels it -- it is not that way.

We have every compassion for them. We are ready to do anything for Oregon. And whatever we are doing is doing for Oregon.... We don't have any hostility at all, no hate against anybody. But the people who are in power in Oregon, if they think that just by being power they can misuse laws, take advantage of their power, go against the constitution -- we are not going to tolerate it.

We love them, still we will love them, but we will fight them.

Q:* WHAT ARE SOME, PERHAPS... THERE'S SO MANY WAYS OF LOVING; ARE THERE PERHAPS

SOME NEW FORMS OF LOVE THAT THE COMMUNITY MIGHT EXTEND OUTWARD?

A:* What do you want: I should go and hug the governor? He will die, then and there, then don't say that, "You are responsible. You killed the man."

Q:* WELL... THAT MIGHT BE TO MUCH: PERHAPS ANOTHER WAY!

A:* Hm mm mm. It is not too much. They are such cowards that we have been sending them continuous invitations that, "Be our guest and before you do anything -- and we are not saying that don't do anything --

before you do anything, just see and be acquainted with us and what we are doing and then you go to the court and whatever you want to do, you do." None of them has been able to come here.

And they are not only cowards -- they are very third-grade politicians. They had a private secret meeting in which all the agencies of the state were present. And the meeting was concerning us, so we asked that,

"At least one person -- the mayor of Rajneeshpuram -- can be there, just so that no misinformation is given."

They did not allow anybody from us. They are discussing us: they don't allow a single person from here, they did not allow even the press.

The governor told to the press that you stay outside; after the meeting I will give you what has happened in the meeting. And he gave the press conference and you will be surprised: everything that he said was a lie. It was not discussed in the meeting -- not a single word of it. And what was discussed in the meeting, not a single word of it was told to the press.

Q:* HOW DID YOU LEARN THAT?

A:* Because one journalist somehow managed to get the secret file. And it was shown on the television.

And then we came to know, we contacted the journalist, got a copy of it. In the meeting they discussed that we should keep the army alert that any moment they can be ordered to reach Rajneeshpuram. At the most, three hours will be given. So within three hours they have to reach Rajneeshpuram -- now this is the result of our invitations to them and this is your governor, your statesmen, politicians. To the press they lied....

And putting army on alert, for five thousand people who are not doing any harm to anybody... what do you want we should do to show our love to them? We have been inviting them. If they cannot come, they 1/08/07

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can invite me -- I am ready -- but they are just chickens. You can make at the most good soup out of them!

Q:* WELL.... CALLING THEM CHICKENS OR STUPID OR THIRD-RATE POLITICIANS -- WHICH

THEY MAY BE -- I'M NOT SURE THAT HELPS... MAYBE NOTHING HELPS.

A:* Mm? We don't care! We are so happy with ourselves, we don't care at all. We are so utterly contented that it does not matter -- few cases here and there, we can fight. And we are to win, because the constitution is in our favor and the law is in our favor. So they will be simply proving themselves* utter fools.

Just few days before it happened we had the annual festival -- fifteen thousand people were here from all over the world. The tents we had made were special tents. We made them ourselves and we had made them such that they can be used in winter, so they were not ordinary tents, but they were still tents. And we have applied for patent for the tents, that we have invented a tent which can be used in a snow, which can be used in winter without any trouble, without any problem. The attorney general immediately imposed a fine. How much fine he imposed?

REPLY:* One point four million.

A:* One point four million. We asked them to, "Come and see before you impose a fine. They are not permanent structures, so they don't need any permission. And you have not seen them, none of your officers have seen them. You have taken it for granted that they are permanent structures, just because they're winterized."

But nobody came. And I told my people, "You just take one tent into the courtroom: open the bag, fit the tent -- it takes ten minutes -- and then unfold it -- it takes ten minutes -- and ask the judge, "Can a permanent building be made in ten minutes and unfolded in ten minutes again? So this is the tent."

The judge simply dismissed the case and said, "This is absurd -- in ten minutes nobody can make a permanent."

Now, if this attorney general has any dignity, he should have jumped into the ocean! He must be a buffoon: one point four million you punish somebody, without any grounds, without even looking at on what you are punishing them.... And their all cases are such, and we are going to prove on each case that they are being behaving in a stupid way.

It is better for them that they should come -- we have no antagonism against them. We have no political aspirations, we have no political parties, we are not concerned at all; just leave us alone.... But they cannot leave us alone!

Q:* WELL, BUT YOU, YOU WON YOUR POINT THERE: WHY CALL THE MAN A BUFFOON? WHY

NOT LET HIM BE? YOU GOT WHAT YOU WANTED -- WHY RUB IT IN?

A:* I have got and we will be getting more. And they are going to be loser on every point.

Q:* YOU ALSO, OF COURSE, ARE DEPENDING ON THEIR BEING FIRST-RATE POLITICIANS

AND JUDGES WHO WILL FOLLOW THE CONSTITUTION, AND FORTUNATELY THERE ARE SUCH

PEOPLE. THEN THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE HALF WAY BETWEEN BUFFOON AND FIRST-RATE.

A:* Yes.

Q:* MANY OF THOSE PEOPLE ARE MY FRIENDS OR LIKE MYSELF....

A:* Hm mm.

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Q:*... EASILY IMPRESSED ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, NOT KNOWING WHAT TO MAKE OF YOU, OF THE RANCH.

A:* Hm mm.

Q:*... HEARING GOSSIP, READING THINGS, GETTING LITTLE PIECES OF INFORMATION. I LIKE THAT YOU'RE DOING MORE INTERVIEWS, MORE MEDIA -- I HOPE THAT THAT GETS MORE

INFORMATION OUT.

A:* We will make more information available and we know that there are judges who will be pressurized by the politicians, there are judges who are just fifty-fifty -- cannot be relied upon -- but there are few judges who are hundred percent fair. So we will drag the cases till we find the person who is hundred percent fair.

And once we have got the hundred percent fair judge, then there is no problem. Right now only my legal people are fighting. If it is needed, I am going to stand before the supreme court myself.

Q:* THAT WOULD BE A MARVELOUS DRAMA TO WITNESS!

A:* Yes. It will be! (laughter) It will be. And my whole circus will be also!

Q:* THIS MORNING YOU SAID THAT YOU'RE AN ORDINARY MAN AND I KNOW YOU MEANT IN

TERMS OF YOUR WAY OF BEING AND LIVING. AND YET OF COURSE, YOU DON'T ALWAYS LOOK

AND ACT LIKE AN ORDINARY MAN -- WHY IS THAT? WHY...?

A:* Because everybody is extraordinary here in this world, so I have to look a little separate from the extraordinary people, because I am being just an ordinary person. So I have to use a golden diamond watch, a Rolls Royce limousine -- just to be... out of the crowd of the extraordinary people!

Q:* I PROMISED MYSELF THAT I WAS GOING TO BE ONE OF THE FEW PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T

ASK YOU ABOUT THE ROLLS ROYCES. IT TAKES A GREAT EFFORT OF THE WILL TO....

BUT I DID ASK MY MECHANIC BEFORE COMING; I SAID, "WELL, WHAT, WHAT SHOULD I TALK

ABOUT? WHAT SHOULD I ASK THIS MAN?" AND HE SAID, "WELL, IF HE'S GOING TO BUY

EXPENSIVE CARS, WHY DOES HE BUY ROLLS ROYCES? IT'S NOT A CAR: IT'S STODGY

FURNITURE." SO HE WANT YOU TO BUY MASERATIS -- I GIVE YOU THAT.

A:* No. That is....

Q:* I PROMISED HIM I WOULD TRY, SO....

A:* They don't come close to Rolls Royces. No car comes close to it.

Q:* FOR YOU IT'S NOT STODGY FURNITURE?

A:* I love it!

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Q:* I WAS TALKING WITH RAJEN THIS AFTERNOON AND WONDERING, SPECULATING -- I WORK AS A PSYCHOTHERAPIST PERSONALLY....

A:* Hm mm.

Q:*... AND I'VE BEEN INFLUENCED BY CARL RODGERS AND ROLLO MAY AND ALSO BY

MAURICE FREEDMAN WHO IS A SORT OF INTERPRETER OF MARTIN BUBER AND WHO

PUBLISHED AN ARTICLE IN MY JOURNAL RECENTLY CALLED HEALING THROUGH MEETING. I WAS WONDERING HOW, HOW WOULD PSYCHOTHERAPY LOOK IN THIS CONTEXT AT THE

RANCH IN YOUR BUDDHAFIELD? WHAT WOULD I SEE -- IF I DIDN'T KNOW THAT THIS WAS A RAJNEESH THERAPIST -- WHAT WOULD I SEE DIFFERENT? AND THIS IS EVEN RESEARCHABLE --

THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO LIKE TO DO RESEARCH ABOUT PSYCHOTHERAPY TRANSCRIPTS....

A:* Hm mm.

Q:*... CODING THEM AND SO FORTH -- WHAT COULD WE FIND THAT WE COULD POINT TO

THAT WOULD SAY, "AHAH! THERE'S SOMETHING DIFFERENT HERE, DIFFERENT EVEN FROM

RELATIVELY ENLIGHTENED EXISTENTIAL PSYCHOTHERAPY." WHAT WOULD WE SEE

DIFFERENT?

A:* It is different. And it can enrich psychotherapy tremendously to understand the difference. All psychoanalyst schools are very superficial. Psychoanalysis -- the very word -- does not go beyond mind.

And man's real being is beyond mind.

Q:* WELL, THE TRANSPERSONAL PSYCHOTHERAPISTS CERTAINLY WOULD AGREE IN

PRINCIPLE TO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING AND MANY OF US HAVE LONG AGO PUT

PSYCHOANALYSIS BEHIND US.

A:* Even the transpersonal psychoanalysts have no idea of what meditation is. It is not transpersonal. It is transcendental. It is a state of no-mind. And psychoanalysis goes on and on, on the circumference --

moving, analyzing -- and it never reaches to the center.

In the East, man has been working on the mind for at least five thousand years. In the West psychoanalysis is not even one hundred years old. It is just childish. Patanjali is five thousand years old, but he does not bother about psychoanalysis. He simply says that there is no need to be bothered about it; you simply become aware of the content of your mind: the thoughts, the dreams or whatever is passing through.

And just remain a witness, without any judgement that this is good, this is bad. You have nothing to do with it; it is just a traffic that is moving and you are standing by the side of the road, just watching without any judgement.

Slowly the traffic becomes thinner and a moment comes, the traffic simply disappears. When the traffic completely disappears, a new experience of no-mind, a new experience of simple awareness -- awareness aware of itself, because there is nothing else to be aware of.

Once this awareness -- you can call it enlightenment, you can call it total consciousness -- once this is realized, you are beyond all mental problems, because you are beyond mind. Now the mind cannot affect you at all.

Psychoanalysis continuously tries to analyze the content of the mind, to find out the symbols, the meaning, and somehow....

Q:* BUT AS I SAID, MANY THERAPISTS NOWADAYS HAVE PUT THAT ASPECT OF

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PSYCHOANALYSIS BEHIND THEM AND AT LEAST IN PRINCIPLE, PERHAPS NOT ALWAYS WITH

THE ABILITY, BUT AT LEAST IN PRINCIPLE, ATTEMPT TO WORK WITH CLIENTS IN THE WAY

THAT YOU'RE DESCRIBING. AND I PROPOSE IT TO YOU REALLY AS A RESEARCH PROJECT, TO

STUDY THE PROCESS OF PSYCHOTHERAPY AS IT OCCURS HERE, AND TO SEE HOW IS IT

DIFFERENT AND DISTINGUISHABLE PERHAPS, FROM... CERTAINLY FROM PSYCHOANALYSIS, BUT ALSO FROM PSYCHOTHERAPY AS DONE BY PEOPLE WHO HAVE DONE EXTENSIVE ZEN

MEDITATION OR WHATEVER ELSE.

A:* Just one thing: the people who are doing some transpersonal psychoanalysis, and you think they have something at least intellectually about meditation.... The only criterion is: do these people themselves have gone beyond problems, do they have worries, do they have tensions, do they have sadnesses, do they feel things that everybody feels and goes through? -- the boredom, despair, meaninglessness, anguish.

If they don't feel at all and don't show any indication of it, and they don't have any desire to know God...

because that desire is just a projection of a child for a father figure. If they don't desire for any paradise --

because paradise is only desired by beggars -- if one is content and fulfilled, he is in paradise. So it is not a question of intellectual understanding. You have to watch these people and you have to watch their patients.

Years in psychoanalysis and where they arrive?

There is not a single person in the whole world who can be said to be completely psychoanalyzed --

strange profession. And there are people who have been analyzed for twelve years by many analysts, and they just go on and on, just moving round and round, reaching nowhere.

The only criterion is: the person whose quest is fulfilled, who is not in any inquiry any more, who has no question about existence, about himself, about anything, who has found himself, has found the ultimate answer for everything -- and that will show in his every act, in his every gesture. It is not a question of intellectual conceivability, comprehension, presentation; you will have to look at the person and at his existential status.

If his wife falls in love with someone, whether he feels jealousy or not. If his wife is happy with someone, the man who is enlightened will be immensely happy, because he always wanted his wife to be happy. If she is happy with someone else, that does not matter. What matters is she is happy.

Q:* I'M INVOLVED SOME IN THE TRAINING OF PSYCHOTHERAPISTS ALSO AND IT WOULD BE

OF IMMENSE VALUE IF YOU COULD PRODUCE HERE SOME VIDEO TAPES OF THERAPISTS

WORKING WITH PEOPLE IN THIS WAY SO THAT I AND OTHER TEACHERS OF PSYCHOTHERAPY

COULD SHOW TO STUDENTS AND TO SAY, "SEE, HERE IS SOMETHING THAT'S DIFFERENT --

LOOK AT IT."

A:* Yes. That can be done very easily. There is no problem in it. Anything that you feel will be useful to anybody, anywhere, you just suggest to my university people and they can produce it.

Q:* AND ALSO I DON'T DO RESEARCH MYSELF, BECAUSE IT'S RATHER DIFFICULT, BUT IF...

AS YOUR UNIVERSITY PROGRESSES, IF THERE WERE PEOPLE AND MONEY AND TIME AND

ENERGY TO DO SOME RESEARCH, ATTEMPTING TO DESCRIBE THIS WORK, IT WOULD BE GOOD

AS PART OF YOUR PUBLIC RELATIONS TO REACH OUT TO THE COMMUNITY OF

PSYCHOLOGISTS JUST TO SAY, "HERE, WE ARE SERIOUS. WE DO THIS WORK. WE SHOW IT ON

VIDEO TAPES."

A:* That's perfectly right. Hm mm.

Q:* "WE PUBLISH ARTICLES ABOUT IT -- COME AND WATCH."

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A:* That can be done. That can be done very easily -- there is no difficulty.

Q:* BACK FOR A MOMENT TO THE ISSUE OF BUILDING THE COMMUNITY IN WAYS THAT

POWER CAN BE SHARED AND DECENTRALIZED. ANOTHER METHOD THAT I AM FOND OF -- I WONDER IF IT'S BEING DONE -- IS TO HAVE NOT JUST INFORMAL DISCUSSIONS AMONGST THE

PEOPLE, BUT EVEN SOME FORMALIZED PROCESSES FOR REVIEWING DECISION-MAKING, TASK

FULFILLMENT, POWER USAGE AND MISUSAGE, SOME WAY OF SELF-REVIEW. I'VE BEEN

INVOLVED IN MANY SUCH GROUPS MYSELF. THE GROUP PRACTICE THAT I'M IN, WE MEET FOR

EIGHT HOURS ONCE A MONTH AND FOR ONE HOUR EVERY WEEK TO KIND OF LOOK AT

WHAT'S HAPPENING AMONG US.

A:* Yes. That can be easily done. That's perfectly good and helpful.

Q:* AGAIN, IT DISTRIBUTES THE POWER AND IT BUILDS A SKILL INTO PEOPLE....

A:* Hm mm.

Q:*... TO LOOK AT WHAT'S HAPPENED IN TERMS OF AWARENESS REALLY.

A:* It can be... it can be of immense help. Thank you for the suggestion!

Q:* IN ABOUT TWO WEEKS I'LL BE MAKING MY THIRD TRIP TO THE SOVIET UNION TO TALK

WITH PSYCHOLOGISTS AND OTHERS THERE AND JUST AS YOU STRUGGLE WITH THE CITIZENS

OF OREGON, SOME OF US ARE STRUGGLING WITH THE CITIZENS OF THE SOVIET UNION. AND

BY SOME IRONY OR FATE, YOU AND I AND MIKHAIL GORBACHEV ARE ABOUT THE SAME AGE.

A:* Hm mm.

Q:* AND WE ARE LIVING IN THIS NUCLEAR-MENACED WORLD TOGETHER, AND I KEEP

THINKING, "WHAT CAN I DO THERE? HOW CAN I MAKE SOME DIFFERENCE? WHAT CAN I SAY?

IF I WERE A SANNYASIN, PERHAPS, WOULD I BE BETTER EQUIPPED TO GO THERE AND TO

TALK?

A:* Certainly! And it is never too late!

Q:* I TOLD MY FRIENDS IF I WASN'T BACK IN A WEEK, TO SEND HELP.

A:* When you are going?

Q:* I WAS A LITTLE WORRIED THEN.

A:* When you are going to the Soviet Union?

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Q:* OCTOBER THIRD.

A:* Because I have my underground sannyasins there....

Q:* I READ AN ARTICLE ABOUT SOME OF THEM IN THE SOVIET PRESS THAT....

A:* Yes. They are writing against me. They are persecuting my people. They have banned the books, they have taken away my books from people. And they have been harassing -- KGB has been calling and continuously interrogating... but it doesn't matter: my people are VERY much excited and interested. I can inform them at least to meet you.

Q:* YOU MUST HAVE BEEN AMUSED TO HEAR YOURSELF ACCUSED OF WORKING FOR THE

CIA....

A:* Yes. That's in... in Russia that is known that I am working for CIA; in America I am working for KGB. Perhaps....

Q:* YOU'RE THE MOST CONSPICUOUS DOUBLE AGENT THAT (INAUDIBLE.) A:* Perhaps I am working for both or both are working for me! But it is interesting that I don't think any man is in such a position who will be condemned by America, by Russia, who will be condemned by Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Mohammedanism, Buddhism, Jainism. I don't think there is anyone who will be condemned by everybody. But to me....

Q:* AND BY THE MASERATI DEALERS OF AMERICA.

A:* Yes. To me it means that whatever I am doing and whatever I am saying, must have something of immense value, otherwise so many people simultaneously cannot be against me. That gives me enough courage, encouragement.

Q:* I SENSE THAT YOU DO DERIVE ENERGY AND EXCITEMENT FROM....

A:* Yes. I....

Q:*... FROM THE CONTROVERSY.

A:*... certainly derive energy.

Q:* WHILE YOU'RE A COURAGEOUS MAN, I BECOME WORRIED WHEN I SEE SO MUCH

HOSTILITY -- THE GUNS....

A:* No. It will go. It is just natural, human nature. It will go. It cannot stay long, because in fact there is no base for it. If there was any base for it, I would have been concerned, but there is no base. From our side we don't have any hostility. Our hands are always stretched and ready to meet with their hands. So it will take just a little time -- it will go, it is not to be worried about.

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they ever come out of Soviet Russia, then they should come to this red commune. Soviet Russia has only a red flag; we are all red people here. They should come here.

Q:* I WILL EXTEND THAT INVITATION AND I KNOW A FEW SOVIETS WHO HAVE A PARTICULAR INTEREST IN THE KIND OF EXPERIMENT THAT YOU ARE DOING AND WHO....

A:* Just give them the invitation on my behalf... and here in America, anybody who wants to come, just on my behalf give him.... And my people are very hospitalizing. He will not be (laughter about the use of the word). He will not be disappointed: they will hospitalize him!

Q:* I HOPE YOU'LL ALLOW ME TO TRANSLATE THAT INTO HOSPITABLE WHEN I....

A:* No! This way it is better. We have a hospital for the guests.

Q:* WELL, OF COURSE WHEN I RETURN AND I TELL PEOPLE OF THE HOSPITALITY AND

WARMTH THAT I FELT HERE AND THAT THE PEOPLE DID SEEM CONSCIOUS AND ALIVE AND

FREE AND AUTONOMOUS, THEN SOME OF MY FRIENDS -- THE ETERNAL SKEPTICS -- WILL SAY,

"OH, WELL, TOM IS ALWAYS KIND OF GULLIBLE, EAGER TO PLEASE, BELIEVES IN THINGS. THEY

MUST HAVE SOLD HIM TOO."

A:* Hm mm.

Q:* WHAT SHALL I SAY TO THEM THEN?

A:* Just tell them that is true. I am almost a second-hand car salesman -- you just tell them. I can sell any kind of car!

Q:* I WOULD... IF I WERE REALLY SHREWDER AND TOUGHER, WHAT TOUGH QUESTION

WOULD I ASK YOU NOW?

A:* You can ask any.

Q:* NO. I'M ASKING YOU FOR HELP HERE!

A:* You just try.

Q:* WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THE UNRESOLVED PROBLEMS IN RUNNING THE RANCH, IN

ENLIGHTENING AND LIBERATING THE SANNYASINS -- WHAT, WHAT'S NEXT? HOW MUST THE

WORK PROCEED NEXT? WHAT NEW FORM DO YOU ENVISION? -- JUST DECENTRALIZATION OF

POWER, CERTAINLY IS ONE.

A:* Just I never think of tomorrow. Just after talking to you, I go to sleep and forget everything, and if tomorrow comes, then I will have it, but it will be today again. So I have managed only for today.

Tomorrow has no place in my life, in my thinking, in my visions. One day is enough!

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Q:* TODAY WAS A PRETTY BIG DAY FOR MANY PEOPLE HERE.

A:* Yes. It is good! Come back again whenever you can find time.

Q:* THANK YOU. I WILL.

A:* Good!

The Last Testament, Vol 2

Chapter #26

Chapter title: None

17 September 1985 pm in Sanai Grove

Archive code: 8509175

ShortTitle: LAST226

Audio:

Yes

Video:

Yes

Length: 46 mins

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript from a video recording and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

INTERVIEW WITH METRO MEDIA, LOS ANGELES, CA

HASYA: THIS IS MARY ECKENBURG(?), KT-TV.

QUESTION:* WE HEARD A NUMBER OF THINGS YOU SAID THIS EVENING, SO I WILL TRY NOT

TO GO OVER THE SAME MATERIAL AGAIN. THIS IS FOR A TELEVISION REPORT, AND

TELEVISION REPORTS ARE SHORT. SO IF YOU WILL HELP ME BY MAKING YOUR ANSWERS AS

SHORT AS POSSIBLE, I WOULD APPRECIATE IT.

SERIOUS QUESTION: YOU KNEW SHEELA FOR A LONG TIME.

A:* Non-serious answer: Not very long, and not very much.

Q:* HOW WAS SHE ABLE TO FOOL YOU, DO YOU THINK?

A:* Just accidental.

Q:* AN ACCIDENT?

A:* Life is accidental. We are talking just an accident, nothing predestined. Somebody else may have 1/08/07

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been in your place taking the interview, so just by chance. Her....

Q:* SO SHE WAS JUST BY CHANCE, DO YOU THINK?

A:* Just by chance. Everybody is by chance. There are only two ways to understand life: either everything is determined, then freedom disappears, then you are just puppets, machines; the other way is that everything is accidental, then everything is free and you are not a puppet, you have an individuality.

And I respect individuality, I respect freedom. In a democratic world, determinism has no place.

Otherwise, Adolf Hitler is simply doing what is determined, killing ten million people; he's not responsible.

Responsibility is possible only if life is accidental.

So everything is accidental, and it is a great excitement because it is unpredictable, too.

Q:* DO YOU THINK, BHAGWAN, YOUR LIFE PERSONALLY WAS IN DANGER HERE?

A:* It is always danger, everybody's life everywhere, because life is between two points, between birth and death. One point has happened, the second is bound to happen. So how it happens does not matter; and where it happens, who cares.

So my whole insistence is to live in this moment and live totally, because next moment may never come.

Q:* DO YOU BELIEVE THESE THINGS HAPPENED, THE DECEPTION OF YOU AND OTHERS, FOR A REASON? WHY?

A:* No reason. Just human nature, just lust for power.

Q:* HOW CAN A POWER STRUGGLE OCCUR IN A RELIGIOUS SETTING LIKE THIS?

A:* Every religion is a lust for power. You may call it spiritual power, you may call it divine power; it does not matter. But every place, wherever human beings are, unless they are all unconditioned -- which is very difficult and rare.... A conditioned mind is trained for ambition, for power, to reach higher and higher, climb to the very peak. So whenever there is a chance, your mind starts climbing the ladder.

I was in silence for three and a-half years so it was good opportunity for Sheela. I was completely absent to the commune. I was living in isolation, in silence; only she was my communication with the commune.

Whatever she informed, that was all I knew. What was going on in reality, I came to know only when I started speaking and people started informing me.

Q:* SO NONE OF THIS YOU WERE AWARE OF?

A:* I was not aware -- when it was happening, I was not aware.

Q:* ONLY LATER, OBVIOUSLY, WHEN PEOPLE TOLD YOU?

A:* Just within two days I have been.... Not even later. And as I became, I wanted to become available to world media so that everybody else becomes aware of it. So it does not happen at least in my communes anywhere else. I have hundreds of communes around the earth, one million sannyasins are involved with me.

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Q:* FIFTY-FIVE MILLION DOLLARS IN DEBT YOU MENTIONED.

A:* Yes.

Q:* HOW DO YOU ARRIVE AT THAT FIGURE?

A:* Now just I have been told. I never go to the office, I never have seen where the office is. It's....

Q:* PERHAPS NOW YOU'LL LEARN WHERE THE OFFICE IS.

A:* No, that is not my style of life. I don't care about fifty-five million or five-hundred million. I live my life in my own way. Now it is the responsibility of the people of the office, the finance department, to look after more carefully.

Q:* SHEELA CALLED THE PEOPLE OF OREGON BIGOTS. DO YOU AGREE WITH HER?

A:* Everybody in this world is a bigot, and I don't think Oregon is not part of this world. Bigot simply means that you are a Christian, you are a Hindu, you are a Mohammedan, you are a Communist, you are belonging to this ideology or that ideology. You have already come to a conclusion, and you look through every new thing through the curtain of your conclusion; that is to be a bigot. It is very difficult to find a man who is not a bigot.

I am not a bigot because I have no ideology, no principles. I'm an agnostic, just a seeker, searcher.

So Oregon is not in any way special in being bigot. It is just the characteristic of all human beings around the world. So don't take it seriously.

Q:* DO YOU PLAN TO STAY IN OREGON?

A:* I love it, and I'm going to be here and I'm going to make it as beautiful as possible and as less bigoted as possible.

Q:* THERE HAD BEEN SOME REPORTS THAT YOU OWN SOME PROPERTY IN OTHER

COUNTRIES -- AUSTRALIA FOR EXAMPLE -- AND THE POSSIBILITY OF YOU PACKING UP AND

LEAVING AND GOING TO THAT COUNTRY.

A:* Never.

Q:* NOT TRUE? YOU TALKED ABOUT THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES TODAY.

THE GOVERNMENT OF THE STATE OF OREGON SAYS THAT RAJNEESHPURAM IS NOT A LEGAL

CITY BECAUSE OF THE CONFLICT BETWEEN CHURCH AND STATE CONSTITUTIONALLY. DO

YOU INTEND TO CONTINUE THE FIGHT TO KEEP THAT CITY AS AN INCORPORATED CITY?

A:* We have to defend our American Constitution, because we are constitutionally right, and the State of Oregon is not constitutionally right in calling us illegal city. We will fight up to the Supreme Court, and we know that we are going to win; because I understand the American Constitution, its values, and whatever has been done to us is absolutely unconstitutional.

For example, the city was incorporated by the state. For two years we were a legal city. For two years 1/08/07

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the state of government, the federal government, both were helping the city; and suddenly the legal city becomes illegal. Great magic.

Q:* SO YOU WILL CONTINUE YOUR LEGAL FIGHT?

A:* We will fight because we have to defend American Constitution. In my vision, American Constitution is the only hope for humanity; otherwise, all constitutions are just somehow or other fascist.

This is the only constitution which is not fascist, and that's why American politicians are continuously in difficulty -- because they are fascist, and the Constitution is not.

Q:* YOU TALKED ABOUT FASCISM, AND YOU SAID THAT A FASCIST STATE HAD BEEN

CREATED HERE ON YOUR OWN PROPERTY. HOW WILL YOU CHANGE THAT NOW?

A:* I have changed it just like that.

Q:* WHAT'S DIFFERENT, THOUGH?

A:* Simply because people are intelligent. My people are not retarded.

This other point, I explained to them what has been happening here. They saw the point. And Sheela escaped.

They understood immediately that now she will be in trouble. And not only she escaped, her whole gang

-- even the mayor of the city, who was part of the gang -- they all disappeared. And nothing was done. I simply explained to people that these things have been happening here just because you were not aware, alert, watching. Now you have to be more alert, more watchful. A democracy needs people to be always alert, because anybody who is power is dangerous. Even if you put a saint in power, you will find a Nixon comes out of it.

Q:* I ASSUME YOU'RE GOING TO BE YOUR OWN SPOKESMAN FROM NOW ON?

A:* I am. And I have always been, and there was no difficulty. Just because this three and a half years I was not speaking, so this fascist nightmare happened. Now I am not going to have any spokesman for me; I will be speaking for myself.

Q:* THE IMMIGRATION SERVICE HAD CHALLENGED YOUR BEING IN THIS COUNTRY

LEGALLY. DO YOU CONTINUE TO TEND...?

A:* They are absolutely wrong; otherwise, what they are doing the hell. For four years they could have deported me. They don't have guts. Just impotent. If I am wrong that what they are doing? I have applied on five counts, and there are only six basis for application to be a resident in America. On five I have applied; on six I can apply any day -- that is marriage, because I am still unmarried. I can get married any moment.

And all other five I'm perfectly capable for each, and I will fight for each up to the Supreme Court. All the INS people will be dead, I will be dead, but the case will not end.

(Interruption to change tape)

Wait a minute, because I have to hit this INS a little more.

They have to prove me that I am not a religious man. I don't think anybody in the whole world can prove me that I am not a religious man. No court, no law, no government can prove that I am not a religious man.

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And if I'm not religious, then nobody else is religious today nor ever there has been anybody religious.

They have to prove that I am not a religious leader. And five thousand people are living with me who are enough a proof. And I have one million sannyasins around the world. I have sannyasins underground in Soviet Union, in Yugoslavia, in China. And I am not a religious leader. Then who is a religious leader?

They will have to prove.

I had come here for my health reasons. I have few allergies -- perfume creates asthma attacks immediately. I need dry and cold climate. Humidity creates asthmatic attacks to me. That's why I had chosen this desert. For fifty years this desert has been for sale, nobody bothered about it; but I liked it because it was suitable to my health, and certainly it proved helpful -- my asthma completely disappeared.

But disappearance simply means that I have to be completely alert about perfumes, dust, anything that can disturb me.

I have never come with a intention to stay here. I had a perfectly beautiful commune in India. Still it is there, still sannyasins are living there. But feeling that my health is better here, I have changed my desire; I want to stay here. And I have every right to take care of my health, and any law that prevents me and wants me to be sick and ill is criminal.

I will fight with those people.

And finally, if they are bent upon to be fascist, then I can get as many women as they want.

Q:* WE HAVE HEARD IN LOS ANGELES REPORTS THAT SEVERAL PEOPLE HERE HAVE AIDS.

IS THAT TRUE, AND IF SO WHAT ARE YOU DOING ABOUT IT?

A:* In Los Angeles, several people have AIDS; not here.

Q:* NONE?

A:* Two. And in L.A. every day one person is dying from AIDS.

Q:* WHAT ARE YOU DOING ABOUT THE PROBLEM HERE?

A:* We are doing everything, and in L.A. you are doing nothing.

Q:* WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE?

A:* First, we have checked six thousand people completely. Have you checked in L.A. all the people?

And without checking all the people, you are constantly creating the danger. And L.A. perhaps may have the most homosexuals in the United States.

These two persons, one has got AIDS through blood transfusion, he's not a homosexual. The other is a woman; lesbians don't get AIDS, so she has got it from some man, she is a heterosexual, she is also not a homosexual. So both the persons are not outcome of homosexuality.

Q:* ARE THEY IN ISOLATION?

A:* They are in isolation, and we have placed them in the most beautiful place we have, the most scenic, the best houses we have we have given to them. They are allowed to come to the meetings, to the discourses, to the meditations; just they have been told not to be in physical contact in any way. And they understand, because we respect them and love them. They are victims. And they are immensely grateful, because nowhere else people suffering from AIDS are going to be respected and loved.

Four other sannyasins have come from other parts of America, because their families have closed their doors, their friends turn into enemies, even their wife and children will not have anything to do with them.

Hospitals will not allow them. We have accepted them because they are in trouble. And it is not their fault.

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anybody is responsible it is Jesus, it is Buddha, it is Confucius and that kind of people -- the whole lot is responsible, because they all insisted on celibacy. And to make celibacy possible, they separated monks and nuns and they created the ground for lesbianism and homosexuality. And the pope should be immediately imprisoned, the shankaracharya of India should be immediately imprisoned, because they are still propagating celibacy, they are still creating homosexuals.

In my commune celibacy is sin because it is against nature, and anybody pretending to be celibate is a hypocrite. It is impossible, biology does not allow it, unless you happen unfortunately to be impotent. Only impotent people can be saints. There is no question of celibacy, and there are so many beautiful woman.

Why you should....

It is out of necessity that people became homosexuals.

There are people in forest, in mountains, where they become even further degraded, they start sodomy, they will start making love to animals, for the simple reason, because neither man is available nor woman is available so what.... It is intelligent. They have to find something. If one food is not available, they will find something else; it may not be so delicious, it may not be so nourishing, it may not be the (inaudible) food, but somehow they have to manage.

In this commune there is no need for anybody to be homosexual.

Secondly, we have taken every precaution because AIDS can spread not only by sexual contact, it can spread by kissing a person. The saliva can carry the virus, or even the tear. You may wash, out of compassion, a tear of a person and you become a patient of AIDS.

So we have made people aware in what ways a person can be infected without his knowing. In a restaurant you are eating, you don't know whether the spoons and other things have been sterilized after somebody has used them. Here in our restaurant, every person who comes to eat his hands are sprayed by alcohol, everything after he uses is being sterilized. Even on telephone booth, somebody phones, immediately the telephone is cleaned by alcohol because you may leave your saliva on the telpehone and just a little saliva may be enough to carry.

Now many things have to be made criminal, but governments are such idiotic. That in Texas your government has made homosexuality illegal. Now, this is something so stupid that perhaps it can happen only in Texas.

They should make things that prevent AIDS compulsory. For example, everybody should use condom, while making love everybody should use hand gloves, kissing should be made illegal -- criminal, and people should be taught substitute ways.

That's what I have been doing here. I have told people kissing is now killing, you avoid; if you respect the person you love, then kissing is not right.

Eskimos rub their noses rather than kissing. That is more hygienic, and more exciting too. Because you have been kissing so long, and you must be stupid that you are not bored yet. And you go on kissing. French people must be the most strange kind of people, exploring each other's mouths with their tongues. It is just

-- makes one feel vomit, the very idea. But rubbing noses seems to be so clean. So I'm telling to my people, rub noses as much as you can, there is no harm; but stop kissing, use condoms.

I'm not against sex, because the people who have been against sex are the cause of AIDS. They repressed sex and the repressed sex became homosexual, mastabatory, sodomy and all kinds of perversions.

So everything natural should be accepted as it is. And use intelligence to prevent that you are not getting infected and you are not giving the other person any infection.

And if somebody wants to find new ways, because old ways are becoming not right.... For example, your wife may be having a child and you start sucking on her breast and it may create AIDS, because any liquid coming out of the body is capable of carrying the virus. So it is better -- because few small children have been found having AIDS, who know nothing of sex, who have never heard of sex, who cannot think of sex, and they are having AIDS. That means from their very mother's womb they have come with AIDS.

We have to learn other ways. For example, Vatsayana, the greatest and most ancient sexologist in the world, five thousand years old in India, he says the ear lobes are the most erotic and most hygienic; just play with your ear lobes with each other, and they are very erotic. And he's right, they are.

Change? Okay. But don't change the subject.

Q:* DO YOU HAVE A CONCERN THAT THE INCIDENTS OF THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS THAT

YOU'VE FOUND OUT ABOUT COULD TARNISH YOUR WORK, YOUR GROUP, YOUR

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ORGANIZATION, IN SUCH A WAY THAT IT WOULD BE HARD TO GET NEW RECRUITS OR

CONVERTS TO YOUR ORGANIZATION? WOULD THIS MAKE IT DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO HAVE

NEW PEOPLE COME IN?

A:* I'm never interested in converting anybody, and I have never converted anybody in my whole life.

I'm not a politician, and I am not interested in numbers. That is just a politics. How many numbers you have

-- six hundred thousand Catholics, then Pope becomes powerful; no Catholics, then the Polack has to go to Poland.

I'm not interested at all in converting anybody. Those who are interested in my ideas come to me, and nothing makes any difference. In fact, because of Sheela and her group many people with tears in their eyes had left the commune; they never wanted to leave. They had come to live with me. But Sheela made it impossible for them to live.... They were intelligent people.

The chancellor of our university left, the vice-chancellor of our university left. Many therapists, who were the best therapists in the university, left because they could not be just puppets in the hands of a stupid woman. Sheela knows nothing. And she wanted to dominate everybody.

So all those people will be coming back, and many more which were prevented because of Sheela and her fascist structure.

But I'm not concerned about it, whether anybody comes or not. I am just stating a fact, that many more will be coming. All over the world there is excitement, every day the whole day there is phones from all over the world that, "We are happy that Sheela is gone; can we come back?" And all the sannyasins here are so excited. When Sheela left, they danced on the streets as if a fascist regime has ended and they have attained independence.

So I don't see any problem. More people will be coming. But I am not concerned with it, whether anyone comes or not.

Q:* THE ATTORNEY GENERAL HERE IN OREGON HAS SAID THAT YOU HAVE A LARGE

STOCKPILE OF GUNS HERE ON THE PROPERTY. IS THAT TRUE, AND IF SO WHY WOULD YOU

WANT TO HAVE THOSE?

A:* I don't have any idea how many guns are there. It will take a little time for the new people who have come in power now to figure out. But the Attorney General is not right. We have few guns which belong to the police -- the police belongs to the Oregon police. We have few guns which belong to the security of the commune, which are all registered. But perhaps Sheela may have something which we have to discover.

Just today we have discovered that there is a tunnel underground, and the door goes from Sheela's room.

And there are many rooms underneath, and for what it was? It cannot be for anything good. But there is no reason to hide it; nobody knew about it. Even I never knew about it. Why it was made, for what purpose, what they wanted to hide.

And just today we have found in a bucket all chemicals and things that are needed to make a bomb. We have literature how to make bombs, how and what poisons can be used in what quantities to prolong the death of the person so he does not die immediately and you are not caught.

So what she was doing? Perhaps there may be some weapons. Either she must have removed them or they must be here. If they are here, then we are going to deliver to the government.

Anything that is not legal we are going to deliver to the police. We have already started delivering things, anything. We don't want any dirtiness here.

Q:* YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY MAKING AN ATTEMPT TO HEAL THE BAD FEELING OF OREGON

AND PERHAPS SOME OTHER PLACES IN THE UNITED STATES AGAINST YOUR ORGANIZATION.

A:* No.

Q:* DO YOU THINK THAT YOU'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN....

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A:* I don't need. We are perfectly happy. We don't have any wounds to heal. They have wounds which we are trying to heal. We are not hostile against Oregonians; Oregonians are hostile. We don't care. We are living on an island, totally sufficient. We have our food, we have our vegetables, we have our fruits, we have our milk products, and we have all kinds of experts. We don't need anything. And we are not in any way worried. The whole Oregon is worried, and that we want that they should not be worried. We are harmless.

Q:* IS THAT THE MESSAGE YOU'RE TRYING TO GET....

A:* We simply want to make it clear that they need not get disturbed nights. We are harmless people, and if they allow us we can be immensely useful to Oregon and its economy. We can make it a tourist place.

In fact, in Poona our commune attracted thousands of people from the world and the government of Maharashtra would not allow me to leave Poona and leave -- and move the commune to another place in India. They forced the central government that I should not be allowed to purchase any big land anywhere because if these people move then our whole tourist will flop. And that's what happened. When we moved, their whole tourism simply flopped. We were bringing so much money to them, and we had made such a beautiful place that everyday thousands of people were just coming to see the place.

So there is no question of our wounds, we don't have any wounds. The question is: we want Americans and Oregonians to understand that they can be completely unafraid of us and there is no need for hostility.

And what we can do? What harm we can do? It is such nonsense. Just a small group of five thousand people. If you become so freaked out with us, what will happen to you when Soviet Union attacks you? I simply cannot believe it, that you become so afraid that the governor and the attorney general alert the army that within three hours you have to reach Rajneeshpuram any time. Strange people. Just out of minds, nuts.

Just we are trying -- I am trying that the people you were afraid of are gone, and the people who are absolutely harmless are here. Now, it is up to you to remain hostile or friendly; but we are friendly. And we will remain friendly, even in spite of your hostility.

That does not mean that you can harm us. We will fight legally, and we will defeat you in every court. It is a strange fate that we, who are strangers to this country, are fighting for the Constitution; and the people to whom this country belongs are prostituting the Constitution, their own Constitution. It is better to come and understand us.

And there is no need to have any antagonism at all. It is simply a phobia they are suffering from.

Perhaps our red clothes are creating phobia in the bulls of Oregon, or what is happening I don't know. If they are so afraid of red clothes, they should ask us, we can change red clothes, but please don't be so afraid, it makes it feel sad that we are not harming anybody and we have no intention to harm anybody.

Just today I was talking to the president of the Foundation and to the coming mayor, and I told that,

"Change the name of Antelope back to Antelope, this is not right." And if people of Antelope just want back their properties, we are ready to sell all the properties back and we can move our people here. We don't want their city and we don't want to rule over them. But if they want not even to purchase the land, the houses, then naturally sannyasins are in majority. There are more than -- not more than twelve, one dozen, old Antelope people and one-hundred sannyasins. Then what can be done? Do you want that twelve people should rule over one-hundred people?

Q:* SO YOU WOULD RETURN THE CITY IF THEY WILL PURCHASE IT BACK?

A:* Certainly -- if they purchase. Because we have purchased those houses from them, and we are ready to give them at the same price. We have improved the properties, the prices have gone higher in four years, and we are still ready to give them at the same price we had purchased -- because it is not a question of business, it is a question of simple understanding that we don't want to create any misunderstanding anywhere. And we don't have any interest in American politics.

So either they can purchase, or their sympathizers in Oregon can purchase, or the Oregon government can purchase. Something can be done.

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Q:* ARE YOU SAYING THAT YOU'RE NO LONGER INTERESTED IN PARTICIPATING IN

ELECTIONS IN WASCO COUNTY, FOR EXAMPLE?

A:* No. I never participated in any election anywhere.

Q:* BUT YOUR SANNYASINS DID.

A:* That is their business. I, myself, have never voted because I see only two idiots standing and it is very difficult for me to decide who is a lesser idiot, so I simply dropped the idea of giving any votes to politicians.

Q:* BUT ARE YOU SUGGESTING OR THINKING THAT YOUR SANNYASINS WILL NOT BE

INTERESTED?

A:* No. This is just my individual thing. The sannyasins should decide for themselves.

This is the whole difference that people don't understand. My sannyasins are not my followers. They are not my blind believers. They are just my friends. There is no essential difference between me and them, just a little bit difference; perhaps my eyes are open and there are closed, but they can open them any moment.

Otherwise I am going to throw ice-cold water in their eyes and make them open; that's my work. But otherwise, there is no difference.

And they have to decide on their own about matters which I am not interested at all.

Q:* AND WHATEVER THEY DECIDE, IT WOULD BE ALL RIGHT WITH YOU?

A:* It is perfectly all right with me. It has always been all right with me.

But if I see that anything I feel needs my suggestion, just for them to think over it.... For example, Antelope. This is my suggestion, that there is no need to change the name. I was in silence when they changed the name. It is ugly, just sick. So put it back.

And I am suggesting to them that make arrangements to sell the properties back, and come. And we have so many houses empty. So come back here and we can create more houses.

And if the government is not behaving unconstitutionally and illegally, then there is no problem, the city is legal. Their own county, their own judges, have incorporated it. It is such a strange thing. The city's plan is included in the Wasco County's plan. Now, if the city is illegal the whole Wasco County becomes illegal.

Wasco County's plan is part of the Oregon's plan. This city illegal makes ultimately whole America illegal.

It is just simple thing: Wasco County wanted not to keep the plan, but the court insisted because "you have incorporated the city you have to include the plan".

Change?

Q:* SO YOU'VE MADE IT CLEAR THAT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS IMPORTANT, THE CITY

REMAIN?

A:* Certainly.

Q:* AND THAT OBVIOUSLY YOU WILL TAKE WHATEVER STEPS LEGALLY ARE NECESSARY TO

DO THAT?

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A:* We will do everything that is necessary and legally right, but we are not going to do anything illegal. In fact, we are in a very good position: we are in the legal position and the government is in the illegal position. We have a very good group of legal experts here, four hundred sannyasins. This is the biggest law firm in the whole world, who are continuously working, and they will fight. And finally I am going to stand up in the Supreme Court to save the American Constitution. It cannot be allowed to be destroyed by petty politicians.

Q:* BHAGWAN, I WANT TO THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US TONIGHT. IT'S

BEEN A PLEASURE, AND WE'VE LEARNED A LOT.

A:* I am also happy, and I would like you to come again and again whenever you can find time.

Q:* WHEN IS YOUR NEXT FESTIVAL? IS IT IN THE SUMMERTIME YOU HAVE FESTIVALS

HERE? YOU MENTIONED IT.

A:* We have four times in the year. But for me it is every day festival. That's why....

Q:* BUT ISN'T THE BIGGEST ONE IN THE SUMMER?

A:* Yes, it is summer.

Q:* HAVE YOU TRAVELLED AT ALL OUTSIDE OREGON IN THE UNITED STATES?

A:* No, just in New Jersey I was for three months in the beginning when we were searching for the land. So I had a very beautiful castle, one-hundred year old, and really a piece of art, and we renovated it and made it completely new. We enjoyed the renovation of the old place, but by that time it was finished I had to come here and started making this place.

Now we have rooms for five thousand sannyasins with all modern facilities. The whole city is centrally air-conditioned. Perhaps this is the first commune which is completely air-conditioned, with all the facilities and comforts, because I don't believe in poverty. I believe just in super comfort.

Q:* DO YOU HAVE MORE BUILDING TO DO HERE?

A:* Yes. We will -- just this case has to be finished, because the case is there we cannot build anything.

It is under litigation. Once the litigation is over, we are going to make. But not big buildings, we don't want to make New York. We can make. Our place is three times bigger than New York, but we will make small chalets like Switzerland on all the hills around. We want it to be a fairy land.

The Last Testament, Vol 2

Chapter #27

Chapter title: None

18 September 1985 pm in Sanai Grove

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Query:-

Archive code: 8509185

ShortTitle: LAST227

Audio:

Yes

Video:

Yes

Length: 160 mins

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

INTERVIEW WITH BUNTE, OFFENBURG, WEST GERMANY

QUESTION:* LET'S START WITH WHAT HAPPENED IN THE LAST FEW DAYS HERE. COULD

YOU EVER IMAGINE THAT SOMETHING LIKE THIS THAT WOULD HAPPEN TO YOU AND TO THE

COMMUNE HERE?

ANSWER:* I never think of the future, so I am always prepared for everything. I am never surprised, never disappointed either. Whatever happens, I take it for granted that it must do some good.

Anything looked rightly is always beneficial. Whatever happened here has helped my people immensely. Now it will never happen again.

They were innocent people. The whole life of the commune was only four years. They trusted me absolutely, although I have never asked anybody to trust in me or have faith in me. Just the contrary, I have asked them never to have any belief, any faith. Doubt is my fundamental teaching.

Doubt is so clean. It has given us the whole science. Just in three hundred years doubt has given us so much and belief in ten thousand years have not given anything except wars, bloodshed, fanaticism, retarded people, divided humanity.

But it is a paradox of life that the more I tell to my people not to have faith, not to have belief, the more they love me, the more they trust me.

For three and half years I was silent. Sheela was my secretary. She was the only link between me and the commune. The commune simply trusted Sheela, that whatever she is saying she represents me. That's how the whole thing happened.

And I don't condemn Sheela, either. It is just a human weakness. Everybody carries will to power within him. Just a question of opportunity. If you get the opportunity, the will to power takes possession of you.

And she had a good opportunity.

These people had tremendous trust in me. She was representing me. She used the opportunity to become almost a fascist leader.

She was nobody. She was only a hotel waitress. But in three and half years she became a great celebrity

-- on the television, on the radio, in the newspapers. Naturally the poor girl got a swollen head.

When I started speaking again, then the problem arose. Otherwise it would have never arisen. Because I started speaking to my people again, they could not believe me, because Sheela was saying something else for three and half years and I was saying just the opposite. She was asking them to surrender completely, to trust totally, and those who don't surrender she was throwing them out. And when I said to my people that,

"You had completely forgotten me and my teaching," she immediately understood that now this is not her place.

On the one hand she is no more going to be the celebrity she has been. On the other hand, all these people are going to bring all the complaints that have accumulated in their minds for three and half years.

She simply escaped.

And now so many things are coming, it seems* are most inconceivable. She has tried to poison people, to kill people. Just today somebody has sent me the message that one of my most important sannyasins, who was also the vice-chancellor of the meditational university here -- very well educated, had a M.A., Ph.D., well experienced psychiatrist, twelve years he was the head of an army psychiatric hospital -- suddenly he and his girlfriend disappeared. And Sheela told me that they wanted to go, so I allowed them to go.

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me on the door -- the girlfriend of Siddha. Siddha was there in the meeting every day and I was seeing him flowering and rejoicing. And I don't see the point they have any reason to leave. What reason they have given?"

She said, "No reason."

And just today I have heard that most probably both have been killed, because they were -- particularly Siddha was so much devoted to me that he won't listen to Sheela.

This is just a rumor right now, but I am going to inform the police and to find what happened to those two people. It is possible, because she has done the same thing to one of the Share-Home people.

When she managed that Share-Home people program, she had ordered a certain drug in such a great quantity that our pharmacist simply refused, because, "What is the point of such a great quantity? And how I am going to answer? What was the need?" So they simply said, "Don't be worried. We will find some other way."

And they must have found some other way. Now people have come to say that they were giving a certain drug to all the street people to keep them calm and quiet and under control.

One man by fault, accident, got too much a dose and he died. And they just threw him out of Rancho Rajneesh.

If they can do that....

They tried my own personal physician to kill by giving him slow doses of poison. They were against three persons very much because those three persons were very close to me and they were afraid that those three persons may be giving me information that they don't want me to know.

I was in isolation and silence. Nobody else was approaching me except Sheela and these three people: my physician, my dentist and my caretaker.

First we thought this is something strange, because nobody could conceive it. My caretaker one day got to Jesus House where Sheela used to live and took a cup of tea, and her heart went to such a high speed suddenly. She is not sick, she is perfectly healthy. There was no question of it. Even doctors were puzzled how it happened. And after much medication -- it took three hours for them to bring her heart to the normal condition.

But nobody even connected it with the tea.

But just after few days my personal physician... the same thing again happened. He had a cup of coffee in Jesus House where Sheela lived, and he came back and he said he has been poisoned. Perhaps because he is a doctor, well qualified, he could suspect the feeling that some poisoning has happened. And he became sick. He had to be entered into the nursery home. There they tried again to inject.

One of Sheela's accomplices was Puja, who was really the expert. She was a trained nurse, almost as much qualified as any doctor. She again tried to inject poison, and then my physician became absolutely afraid to live there in the nursery even for a single moment. He was brought back home.

They tried third time in a public meeting everyday morning in the discourse. They injected in the crowd poison and he immediately felt.... He took over his robe and showed people blood coming out and the place where the injection was given. And now he was absolutely certain that it is a certain injection that is not detectable, and it simply weakens you, and in a period of six to eight months it kills you. So nobody can be caught. It is not a sudden killer.

This time he refused to go to the commune's nursery home because that was again under Puja. So we had to send him to Bend. His wife, Hasya, was with him there. The doctors could not find any disease. They told the wife that, "We don't find any disease. All that we can say is some indetectable poison has been injected. But we can only say. There is no proof because it is indetectable."

They said the same has happened to Mike Sullivan, the attorney of Jefferson County, one year before --

exactly the same case.

And there is every possibility the same people were behind that case too, because our commune's land comes half in Wasco County and half in Jefferson County, and Jefferson has not been in any way helping us to develop the land or to make few houses there for farmers to live.

It is a big stretch of land: one hundred twenty-six square miles. We need few houses there at the other corner. Perhaps because Sullivan was not helping, was a hindrance, they may have tried.

But all these things have come within two days, and more and more information is pouring in.

These people got the information from some source that grand jury is going to convene within two, three days. The moment they got that news, immediately she took away the whole group, twenty people, and escaped out of the country.

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There was no need for them to fear. If they have not done anything wrong, I don't see the point of escaping from the country.

Just today -- Hasya is the new president of the Foundation -- she moved in the president's room and she could not believe, that there was a door going underground, that they had few rooms underneath the room which nobody in the commune knew, and a tunnel which goes out. In any case if somebody attacks or takes the house in possession, people can escape from the tunnel. So they have been preparing really well, doing things mathematically.

And whatever they have left in the rubbish, we have found literature how to make bombs, materials out of which bombs are made, materials on poisons, in what doses poisons can kill and how they should be given.

We have also found that the fire that had happened in Wasco County in one of the offices was the work of this group. Because they had the papers against them and they wanted to burn all those papers, they burned the whole office.

Today one sannyasin phoned from Germany knowing that Sheela and his company has left. He was immensely happy. He was our best pilot, and nobody knew why he was sent to Germany into a commune where there is no aerodome, no airplane.

He was sent as a punishment because Sheela wanted him to take one airplane full of bombs, full of petrol, and crash the bomb with the Wasco County building, and before the crash happens he should jump out with a parachute to save his life. But destroy the building and have enough bombs and enough petrol so that fire burns the whole place.

He refused. He is a simple man. Because he refused, afraid that he may say this thing to anybody, they immediately packaged his luggage and sent him to Germany.

I informed him that,"You come immediately because your witness to the government will be of immense help."

The whole day the office is buzzing with phones from all over the world, how people have been thrown out of the commune, humiliated -- and particularly those people who were more devoted to me, have lived longer than Sheela with me, knew me more than Sheela. She did not want anybody here.

And she had arranged a clique of almost all the new people who had no idea of my ideology, so whatsoever she said they thought that she has brought the news from me.

We are informing the police -- we have informed the police, the state police, the federal police, and we have asked German police, Switzerland police, because they are hiding in Switzerland in a small village near Zurich.

And just today I received the message that they are spending fifty thousand dollars per day, so that means our people have to look into the books well because from where they have got the money? They have left the commune in fifty-five million dollars debt.

So it was really turned out to be a criminal gang. But every man deep in the unconscious has the possibility. Just one needs opportunity. They got the opportunity.

Now it will not happen for the one reason that I am going to speak directly to my people. Secondly I am making every arrangement to decentralize power. Thirdly I am making arrangements to change power positions more often so nobody takes their position for granted, as if it is their inheritance. And I am telling my people to be alert and aware because my teaching is for freedom, not for fascism.

I value democracy not dictatorship. To me, individual and respect for his individuality are highest values. And no individual should be humiliated.

So now I will have to teach them that, "You have to be aware of your own power elite, too. And anything you see, immediately inform me."

This was a ugly nightmare but they could not do any harm to the commune. They tried. Money does not matter; if they have taken some money, that is not much of a thing to be bothered with. But otherwise they have not....

And all the peoples that have left are asking to come back, and I am calling them that they can come back.

And there has been such a rejoicing. People have been dancing for hours in the street when they heard that Sheela and her group has left -- as if they are freed from a concentration camp.

So in a way it is good that these people are gone. They were creating a rift between the commune and Oregon, between the commune and the American government. Now that barrier has disappeared and we can create bridges of friendship, because to me America is the only hope for humanity.

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If America does not succeed, then the whole humanity is going to be under communist regimes, and humanity is going to be reduced into robots. They have done that in Soviet Union and they will do it more forcibly everywhere else.

So America is not only just a country. It is now more than that. It is a hope for freedom and hope for democracy and hope for individuality, justice.

My respect for American constitution is immense, so much that I feel that American politicians are all prostituting it. The constitution is something immensely valuable, but the third-class politicians cannot keep up with the constitution, that's the difficulty.

I can understand. The constitution has such high goals and ideals and the politicians have no goals and no ideals except a lust for power, so the gap is big. They are doing things which are unconstitutional, illegal.

So in every way I would like to be part of this country, but I will also fight any illegality that is being done to the commune against the constitution. We are fighting and we are winning, and we will fight up to the supreme court, and supreme court is still a ray of light.

And we see no reason that we cannot win. We are to win, because whatever they have done to the commune is absolutely unconstitutional.

They had recognized the commune as a city for two years. Their judges, their county, their state and the federal government all were helping the commune for two years as a city. And then suddenly -- perhaps some Christian pressure -- and they declared the city illegal. This is the only city in the whole world which is illegal. There are cities and there are no cities, but illegal cities don't exist.

And the greatest beauty of it all is that this is the only place where in four years nobody has been raped, nobody has been robbed. And still they go on calling it illegal.

And it took the attorney general of Oregon -- he must be a mighty dull head -- two years to discover that the city is illegal. You should have done every exploration before you accepted the city and its incorporation. If it is illegal, then you are the criminal. Why you incorporated it? You did not investigate properly or you don't understand the law. It took two years for you.

And now also they are trying and fighting for one thing: we want the case to be decided in a federal court and they want the case to be decided in a state court. Now, it is a very simple thing, needs no legal knowledge, that if state itself is involved in the case, state courts cannot be expected to be fair. And why they are afraid of federal courts? Do they think their state courts are more fair than the federal courts?

Now they are fighting for that, that the case should be decided in the state courts. We will not let them decide in a state court, because state court is under their pressures. We want federal court to decide. We don't want any favor from anybody. We simply want whatever is legal should be given to us.

Q:* I WILL COME BACK TO WHAT HAPPENED (INAUDIBLE) BEFORE THAT YOU ARE SURE

SOMETHING LIKE THAT WOULDN'T HAPPEN ANY MORE. DOES IT MEAN THAT YOU TAKE OVER

THE CONTROL AGAIN?

A:* No, I don't have any control. I had never. My love is my control. I don't have any position. Never I had before, and I don't need. You need position only when you don't have love enough. I love these people, I trust these people, they love me and they trust me. I have enough. What any position can give to me?

So I don't have any position legally. But I am one of them and my heart and their hearts beat together.

We have a certain synchronicity.

So I am not going to take control. When I said, I said simply that I will be continuing to speak.

I was in isolation and not speaking. That gave the opportunity to some wrong people. Now I will be speaking and every day meeting my people, and that's enough.

For thirty years in India it had never happened for the simple reason because nobody will dare to do anything. When I am present, then nobody of my people is afraid of the president or the mayor or the secretary or anybody. Then they can say the truth openly.

And the president and the secretary will also never feel that there is an opportunity to take advantage of.

So just my presence and my availability is enough. It won't happen. It can't happen.

Q:* FROM THOSE PEOPLE THEY WENT TO EUROPE, EVERYBODY CAN COME BACK? ALSO

SHEELA?

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A:* Yes, everybody can come back. I love... they are my people. But I will have to make it clear to them that, "I love you as your person, as an individual. But I don't love your wrong actions. For your wrong actions you will have to face the courts. And for your wrong actions we are not going to help you. As far as you are concerned, our love remains the same."

I make a clear distinction between the action and the person. Action is a small thing.

For example, for thirty years you were a perfectly nice person and one day you murder. Nobody could have conceived. And after that day you may not murder ever. But our legal systems are blind. Because you have murdered, they will murder you.

This is a strange, primitive law.

If murder is wrong, then punishment to murder the person is also wrong -- more wrong. Just because it is being done in the name of society, civilization, culture, law, court, does not make it right.

To me, the murderer as a individual is as respectable as the magistrate. His action of murder is wrong, which is a small thing considered to the personality of the being, his whole life.

I would like every wrong person, illegal person, criminal person, to be sent not to imprisonment but respectfully, with dignity, to a psychiatrist camp, to a hospital where he can be treated, because murder is basically something psychological. Rape is something psychological. Power, lust, is something psychological.

Perhaps the person is not responsible at all. It is just some instinct that takes possession of him and he does something. And it is wrong to behave in the same way. Eye for eye -- that is not civilization. And he can be treated. And you don't have any right to destroy a person's whole future because of a single act in the past.

The past is over, the future is open. Why you should destroy his future? You should help that the same thing does not happen in the future, so whatever steps are needed should be taken: medically, physiologically, psychologically -- everything should be done to get this person off this instinct to murder or rape or do... to do something wrong.

I will call that a cultured society.

So I will to see*. Even they come back, whatever they have done is small. Their humanity and their being is far more precious.

But I will not protect them against law. I would like them just as we are lovingly receiving them, they should go and surrender to the court and tell everything, whatever they have done, and ask the court that whatever is needed to be done to them, they are willing to accept.

Q:* DID YOU SEND SOMEBODY AFTER THEM?

A:* No, not yet.

Q:* YOU WILL?

A:* No. I will just wait, because one person out of them has already come back, another has phoned. I will wait. Soon they will be feeling that they have done something wrong and it is not right to be there.

They will all come back.

Those who will not come back must be the three persons -- Sheela, Puja, Shanti B -- who were really involved into killing people. They will be brought by the Interpol or Swiss police or German police.

And I don't need to send anybody anywhere because I have my sannyasins everywhere. They cannot go to any corner of the world and hide. I have my communes in Germany, in Switzerland, in Holland, in England, in Italy -- wherever they will go my people will find them.

And I am going to inform all the communes.

And they are committing the same stupid crimes there. Just the phone came that Sheela has married one Swiss sannyasin. Now this is bigamy. She is married to an American here. And she has married there just to remain in Switzerland. And her husband, who was a trustee of the commune -- we have a big commune in Zurich and one of the best in Europe -- he was a trustee there. Another trustee was Pragyan, who is missing.

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Again the same suspicion, because if they could do such things here they may have done the same thing with Pragyan.

Pragyan is missing and Dipo has withdrawn all the money from the bank which was commune's money and he is not entitled to take it for his personal use. So they phoned and asked, "Should we give him to the police?"

I said, "Immediately, because once Dipo is behind the bars Sheela and the whole group will be without support."

So we will catch them. They cannot escape anywhere.

Q:* IN EUROPE THERE ARE SOME RUMORS IN LAST FEW DAYS THAT YOU WOULD LEAVE

OREGON, PROBABLY TO AUSTRALIA. IS IT TRUE?

A:* I was just joking with an Australian journalist. Nothing. No rumors.

Q:* YOU WILL STAY IN OREGON?

A:* I am going to stay here.

Q:* FOR HOW LONG?

A:* Till I get the green card. If they give me the green card I may go. If they don't give me, then alive I am not going anywhere.

Q:* DO YOU TRUST THESE NEW PEOPLE ON THE TOP OF THE COMMUNE?

A:* Perfectly. I even trusted those people, and I trust even them now. To err is human, it is nothing much important. And my trust is unconditional. It does not depend what you do and what you don't. I trust your being, your very existence. I certainly trust the new people. Without my trust, without my love, now my commune is not going to choose anybody.

Q:* SO YOU DON'T FEEL HURT?

A:* No. Not at all. There is nothing to feel hurt. I just feel excited.

The Last Testament, Vol 2

Chapter #28

Chapter title: None

19 September 1985 pm in Sanai Grove

Archive code: 8509195

ShortTitle: LAST228

Audio:

Yes

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Video:

Yes

Length: 103 mins

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

INTERVIEW WITH QUICK MAGAZINE, WEST GERMANY

Q:* SOME OF THE QUESTIONS THAT I PLAN ASK YOU THIS EVENING MAY SEEM VERY

HOSTILE TO YOU.

A:* No.

Q:* AND I DON'T WANT YOU OR THE COMMUNE TO FEEL THAT I'M BEING HOSTILE AT ALL.

A:* No. Nobody can be hostile to me. Whatever you do, I never feel any hostility from any human being towards me. It is your work -- to be a journalist is a tough job.

So you be as harsh as you can. But remember that I am a tough guy too!

Q:* I HAVE A LOT OF QUESTIONS TO ASK YOU AND SO I'M HOPING THAT YOU CAN GIVE

SOMETIMES RATHER SHORT ANSWERS, BUT IF YOU FEEL LIKE GIVING LONGER ANSWERS, THAT'S ALL RIGHT TO. YOU KNOW?

A:* Everything is okay -- you just start.

Q:* THE RAJNEESH PEOPLE HAVE BEEN VERY HOSTILE TO THE PEOPLE OF OREGON. THEY

CAME IN AND TOOK OVER THE TOWN OF ANTELOPE. SHEELA HAS CALLED ANYONE WHO

OPPOSED THE COMMUNE A FASCIST AND A BIGOT. HOW CAN YOU NOW TELL US AND MAKE US

BELIEVE THAT YOU DID NOT KNOW WHAT SHEELA WAS DOING AND SAYING? YOU DID READ

THE PAPERS, YOU WATCH TELEVISION, YOU LISTEN TO THE RADIO. THE OUTSIDE MEDIA HAS

BEEN REPORTING ON THIS FOR FOUR YEARS AND NOW YOU SAY TO US THAT YOU JUST FOUND

OUT ABOUT THIS OVER THE LAST FEW DAYS.

A:* Just keep your answers short.

First, I do not listen to radio, I do not see television. For five years I have not read any book, any magazine, any newspaper. So I do not know anything about the world and particularly the three and half years when I was silent -- I was in isolation. Sheela was my only connection with the world, so whatsoever she said, that's all that I knew.

Q:* THAT'S ALL YOU KNEW?

A:* So whatsoever she wanted me to know, she said; whatever she never wanted me to know, she never said. And I was not a suspicious type person. I trust people, I respect people. When somebody says something, I believe it. That's why she could manage to do many criminal acts in those three and half years.

And I was not aware of them at all.

Since I started speaking again, she was in a difficulty, because whatsoever she was doing goes absolutely against my teaching. My teaching is to doubt everything.

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Q:* ARE YOU SAYING DOUBT?

A:* Yes. Unless you come to realize something indubitable; my teaching is not a belief system, it is not Christianity, it is not Mohammedanism, it is not Hinduism. It is not a religion which forces everybody to believe in a God you don't know, to believe in heaven in hell you don't know. My insistence is either you know or you don't know -- there is no third position. And she has been in this gap, insisting people to believe in her, not to doubt -- to doubt is negativity, surrender to her totally -- and she was presenting people that this is my message.

So when I started speaking she started feeling uncomfortable, naturally. When I started speaking I became available to my people, approachable easily. That brought her fall down. She knew that sooner or later everything that she has done or forced people to do, I will come to know.

Q:* WE'LL BE COMING TO THAT IN A MOMENT, OKAY?

A:* No. It is not yet okay. Your question is not answered yet.

Before her whole criminality and the gang that was supporting her is exposed, she simply escaped from the country with the whole gang. And now I am coming every day, because the people who were afraid of her now are no more afraid of anybody. Just as I was leaving my house, I was informed that one of our scientists was asked by Sheela to prepare some instrument that people can be killed just by rays, so that will not be detectable. He refused, but he was not aware whether he is doing right or wrong, whether he is trusting me or not, because Sheela was always keeping the mask that she is representing me.

As I was entering in the car I was informed by the man who takes care of the cows, particularly the cow which is maintained for me, that the cow was given poisonous things slowly, so that the milk can become poisoned. So it was not only that they wanted to kill other people; they wanted me at least if not to be killed, at least to be so sick, so crippled, that I will not come in the public again.

Q:* WHY WERE YOU IN SILENCE FOR SO MANY YEARS AND WHY AND WHAT PROMPTED YOU

TO BREAK YOUR SILENCE?

A:* Silence is the only prayer that is true. Any other prayer is just make-believe. You are praying to a God you do not know.

Q:* I KNOW THE GOD I PRAY TO. ARE YOU ASKING ME WHETHER I KNOW WHO I PRAY TO

OR WERE YOU JUST ASKING THAT...?

A:* I mean everybody who prays, prays in ignorance. Prayer means out of ignorance. Silence is just the polar opposite of prayer. It is authentic prayer. You are simply silent -- you are not saying anything to existence, you are not asking anything from existence. You are just merging yourself, drowning yourself --

with the air, with the sun, with the moon, with the earth, with the sky. You are in a way disappearing your ego, your separate existence from the whole.

I had wanted that period for many years. Thirty years I have been speaking continuously, five lectures per day. Thousands of people every day meeting hundreds of people, roaming all over India for thirty years

-- I was tired, sick, and I wanted to be in complete silence, in total relaxation, no disturbance, no phone around me, no newspaper, no unnecessary thing -- that was the reason for me to go in silence.

I had to come out of silence because I started becoming aware by my people, because three people were able to approach me -- my physician, my dentist and my caretaker -- and Sheela and her gang has tried to poison all the three people and to kill them.

So from these three people I became aware what is going on that, "Your commune has become almost a concentration camp. Everybody who is intelligent is being thrown out in some way or other, pressurized, forced, humiliated. The vice chancellor of our university left, the chancellor of our university left, few very 1/08/07

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good therapists left, few people who have been with me for almost a decade, utterly in love, had to leave and with tears in their eyes, because Sheela did not want anybody who can rebel against her.

The moment I became aware of the situation, I declared that I am going to speak from tomorrow.

Q:* COULD I ASK YOU HOW YOU DID BECOME AWARE? WHO DID APPROACH YOU FIRST SO

THAT WHEN DID YOU KNOW THAT, YOU BEGAN TO SUSPECT THAT SHEELA AND HER GANG

WERE UP TO NO GOOD. WAS IT IN MAY, WAS IT IN JUNE?

A:* It is very difficult for me, because I never take note of days and dates, but it must be when I started speaking.

Q:* I BELIEVE THAT WAS IN JUNE?

A:* It must be one and half month before I started speaking.

HASYA: October, '84.

Q:* OCTOBER OF EIGHTY-FOUR? IS WHEN BHAGWAN STARTED SPEAKING?

H:* No, Bhagwan started speaking to a small group of people in October, '84. He was not yet speaking in public.

Q:* IN PUBLIC I THINK IT WAS IN JUNE '85.

A:* Yes. First I started speaking to the people who have been very intimate to me, to understand the whole situation, and then I started speaking into public, and slowly everything surfaced, people became unafraid, and every crime -- perhaps there are more crimes that will come up soon....

Q:* WELL, ARE YOU SAYING THAT, THAT YOU'VE BEEN SUSPICIOUS OF SHEELA SINCE LAST

OCTOBER -- THAT YOU'VE BEEN WATCHING HER?

A:* About dates you forgive me. I have not a good memory at all. I don't know what day today is. I don't know. And I never care what day it is, what year it is, and what date it is -- I am not a businessman and I have no business to know these things. To me every moment is the same.

Q:* HARRY TRUMAN WHO WAS PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES ONCE SAID THAT, "THE

BUCK STOPS HERE," IN OTHER WORDS, WHOEVER IS THE HEAD OF AN ORGANIZATION.... SO

WHY DIDN'T YOU STOP SHEELA SOONER? I STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND.

A:* I'm not the head -- that's where you don't understand me. I am not the head of any organization. I don't hold any post, I have never been on any post. My power is my love but that is not politics and that does not make me Harry Truman! And that guy you call Harry Truman was Harry Un-Truman. That man was responsible for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And still you have not changed his name. He was the most untrue man who has ever lived on the earth. Harry Un-truman from now!

Q:* I THINK THE BOMB WAS DEVELOPED UNDER FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT... DID SHEELA RESIGN, WAS SHE ASKED TO RESIGN RATHER THAN BE FIRED? AND TO WHOM WAS THE

LETTER ADDRESSED AND CAN THE LETTER BE MADE AVAILABLE TO THE MEDIA?

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A:* The trouble is she simply informed that she is leaving the country.

Q:* WHOM DID SHE INFORM?

A:* She informed the financial secretary of the communion....

Q:* AND WHOM MIGHT THAT BE?

A:* Savita. She informed to Savita that she is leaving the country and she will leave her resignation to her and my authority letter for being my secretary, my power of attorney, but what actually happened, Savita also escaped with the group, so I know only the information. I never got any resignation in my hand.

Q:* SO IS THERE AT THE COMMUNE HERE, A LETTER SIGNED BY SHEELA OR IS THERE NOT

A LETTER SIGNED BY SHEELA?

A:* That will have to be inquired.

Q:* BECAUSE IF NOT, IT IS VERY POSSIBLE THAT SHEELA AND HER GANG WHO ARE NOW IN

ZURICH COULD AND MAY HAVE ALREADY EMPTIED OUT YOUR BANK ACCOUNTS IN ZURICH.

A:* They have done that. They have done that already.

But I am not an organization man, so you will have to ask the people -- Sheela's secretary perhaps has the letter of resignation and everything and they can be made available to you. But in Zurich Sheela has become incredibly criminal.

She married a Swiss sannyasin. She was already married to an American sannyasin here -- this is bigamy. And she married this Swiss sannyasin because he had the power to take the money out; the money belonged to the Swiss Zurich commune, so he had taken out the money....

Q:* HM MM. DO WE KNOW HOW MUCH WAS TAKEN OUT?

A:* No, because I don't have any connection with these things. I have never gone here to the office, I never look at their files, I never inquire -- that is not my business and not my interest.

Q:* SO YOU HAVE NO INTENTION OF DOING THIS NOW?

A:* No.

Q:* WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO IF YOU FIND OUT THAT HASYA SUDDENLY IS

FOLLOWING IN SHEELA'S FOOTSTEPS?

A:* She will not fall in Sheela's steps. She is far more intelligent, far more loving, and far more human.

Q:* YOU HAVE ALSO SAID THE OTHER NIGHT AT A PRESS CONFERENCE WHEN YOU

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ANNOUNCED THE SHEELA TRAUMA, THAT 'THIS IS GIVING ME GREAT EXCITEMENT AND I ENJOY IT.' IS IT POSSIBLE THAT YOU HAVE STAGED SHEELA'S DEPARTURE FOR EXCITEMENT?

A:* Yes.

Q:* ARE YOU SERIOUS? BECAUSE YOU'RE GOING TO BE QUOTED AROUND THE WORLD.

A:* You quote it exactly as I am saying. It is a great excitement and I am really being serious!

Q:* WELL, WHEN YOU'RE BEING SERIOUS COULD YOU HAVE A STRAIGHT FACE?! MOST

PEOPLE ON THE OUTSIDE ARE SKEPTICAL ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE REALLY SAYING -- AFTER ALL

THESE ARE MERE ALLEGATIONS. THERE HAS BEEN NO PROOF OTHER THAN THE FINDING OF

ELECTRONIC EQUIPMENT AND THESE BOOKS ON HOW TO KILL, WHICH IN AND OF ITSELF IS

NOT A CRIME. HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THE SKEPTICS ON THIS PARTICULAR QUESTION?

A:* We will provide them more facts, our people will provide them more witnesses.... For example, one of the offices of Wasco county was burned by Sheela's gang. We have the witnesses. Sheela wanted one of our pilot to take the bombs in one of our planes and crash the plane against the Wasco county office, and before the plane crashed he should jump out in a parachute. He refused. Because he refused, as a punishment he was sent to a faraway, small commune in Germany, so he does not say it to anybody.

As he heard that Sheela has left, he immediately phoned and I called him. Just I have seen him here.

So we are collecting... it will take few days because for Sheela it took three-and-half years, and she has taken many documents, many things with her. But within two weeks we will be able to produce hundreds of witnesses for everything that she has done. For example, just when Hasya moved into Sheela's room which belongs to the president of the Foundation, she found there a way going downstairs. She was... out of curiosity went in. And she found that underneath there are rooms. For what purpose, the whole commune, nobody knows. And there is a tunnel going far, so if some police comes to arrest her or anything happens, they can escape through the door out of the tunnel which leads far away from the house. Now these are proofs of the* criminal mind who is preparing for something.

Q:* WELL, THESE HOUSES WERE BUILT BY PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNE, I MEAN THEY WERE

NOT BUILT BY THE OUTSIDE?

A:* No, they were not built by outside people. That's why we can manage to have witnesses. Otherwise it would be difficult to find witnesses.

Q:* HAVE PEOPLE COME FORWARD... NOT NECESSARILY TO YOU?

A:* Not yet, but we will find who has been, because we have built houses for five thousand people in the whole commune, so who was working here we will have to find out. She has bugged houses....

Q:* FOR WHAT PURPOSE DO YOU THINK SHE BUGGED YOUR HOUSE? WHAT WOULD SHE

HAVE HOPED TO HAVE HEARD, IF YOU WERE IN SILENCE?

A:* She must have been afraid if any information against her is given to me. If my physician, who comes to check me, gives me some information, if my caretaker, who comes three, four times to give me tea or food, if she talks anything against her, gives any information. The purpose is clear.

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Query:-

Q:* WAS THE DOCTOR OR THE DENTIST OR VIVEK GIVING YOU ANY INFORMATION?

A:* In fact Sheela had managed almost my house outside the city. And she has managed that the commune and my house are almost separate entities. My doctor... she gave good excuses, good explanations: that my doctor has not to go to the hospital because he checks me, looks after me, he can bring any infection from the hospital, so he need not go there. He should remain in the house, do some editing work. My dentist should not go out, he should do some edition, editor's work. And my caretaker certainly has no time to go out from 6:00 early in the morning late 11:00 when I go to sleep, she is continuously running for everything for me.

So they had managed that these people don't come in contact with commune, and the people who were committing crimes, they have specifically told them -- now they are coming out -- that never say anything to Bhagwan's place, whoever lives there, don't say anything to those people. They have completely isolated my house in the excuse that I need silence, isolation, so nobody should go there. And nobody should come out from there. She did it perfectly well. She had good excuses.

So as these people slowly became aware from friends or somebody phoned, their phones were bugged, taped. Their rooms were bugged. These are now available. FBI people are coming tomorrow to check all the houses where bugging had happened, in what ways they were taping through the telephones.

Q:* NO, BUT WHERE ARE THE ACTUAL TAPES OF THE BUGGING? I MEAN IS THAT GOING TO

BE TURNED OVER TO THE FBI?

A:* Yes, few are here, which we can give to FBI or to any court, whoever wants them and wherever they are needed. Most of them, perhaps the important ones that she was afraid, she has taken with herself.

Q:* WELL, SHE MUST HAVE LEFT WITH A TRUNK THEN?

A:* Twenty... so in twenty people's luggage you can take many things, many tapes, many things, and in a private plane, our own plane, they had gone to Portland... to Seattle.

Q:* WHEN WAS THIS? SATURDAY NIGHT?

(Answer from a sannyasin is inaudible)

Q: THE FOURTEENTH? THAT'S SHEELA AND A GROUP OF....

A:* Of almost twenty people.

Q:* LEFT ON A RAJNEESH PLANE?

A:* Yes.

Q:* IF THEY RESIGNED, THEY HAD NO RIGHT TO TAKE THAT PLANE?

A:* That's the trouble because I don't look after any small thing. I don't have any power either.

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Q:* WELL, WHO FLEW THEM, AND UNDER WHAT AUTHORITY?

A:* They had resigned, but the people on the airport had no idea that they have resigned. Only Sheela's secretary knew about it, and....

Q:* AND SHE HAS NOW LEFT?

A:* No.

Q:* SHE IS STILL HERE?

A:* She was very courageous, and she proved a real jewel, because she has all the clues that has happened in three-and-half years. Sheela was forcing her to go with her, threatening her, but she simply refused. She said, "I am here for Bhagwan. I am not here for you."

Q:* IN WHAT WAY DID SHEELA THREATEN SHEELA'S... THE SECRETARY?

A:* The secretary knew that she has even killed people.

Q:* THAT WHO HAD KILLED PEOPLE? SHEELA?

A:* She had an assistant in all these killings and efforts to kill -- Puja, who is a trained nurse and well-qualified, almost equally to a doctor's qualification. She can prescribe medicines, she has license. She was the criminal to help in practical things. Idea was Sheela's; Puja will practice it. They even tried to kill the private secretary -- they poisoned her tea.

Q:* THE PRIVATE SECRETARY TO SHEELA, YOU MEAN?

A:* Yes.

Q:* BUT DID YOU SAY BEFORE THAT SHEELA DID KILL SOMEONE?

A:* Yes. Because when there was a Share-a-Home program, and three thousand people from the streets Sheela has brought here, she was giving them doses of certain poison -- what is the name of the name of the poison?

(Answer from a sannyasin is inaudible)

Q:* IT BEGINS WITH AN H, I THINK.

A:* Haldol, hmm?

Q:* YES.

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A:* That poison they were giving to all people in small doses to keep them quiet, under control, silent, and to make them almost zombies, so whatsoever you say they will do. One man just accidentally they overdosed, and that man died. And they simply threw his body out of the area of Rancho Rajneesh. The body was found by the police, but there was no proof what has happened to the man. Right now after almost one year we have come to know from people that it was an act of Sheela and her group. So they tried the private secretary of Sheela, but she is really a strong and brave... she remained here and she is going to be our immense help in finding out people who have done it, who are still in the commune and can be witnesses, who has made that tunnel. For everything she will be of immense help, because everything went through her, she was the secretary. So writing everything she knew what was happening.

Q:* IF YOU WANNA KEEP A SECRET, NEVER TELL YOUR SECRETARY, REMEMBER THAT.

A:* That's good, but I don't want to keep anything secret.

Q:* THERE IS A REPORT CIRCULATING IN EUROPE TONIGHT THAT YOU HAVE WRITTEN A LETTER TO THE RAJIV GANDHI ASKING IF YOU CAN RETURN TO INDIA. AND IF SO, THIS LETTER

IS ALLEGED TO STATE ALSO WHAT CAN BE DONE REGARDING THE TAXES YOU OWE. DID YOU, OR ANYONE HERE AT THE COMMUNE, ON YOUR BEHALF, WRITE SUCH A LETTER TO GANDHI, AND ARE YOU PLANNING TO INDIA?

A:* I have never written any letter, and I have no plan to return to India.

Yes, one of Rajiv Gandhi's friend had come here to see me, and wanted if I have any message for Rajiv Gandhi, because I have been in intimate connection with Indira Gandhi, Rajiv Gandhi's mother, Rajiv Gandhi, Sanjay Gandhi -- their whole family. So he asked me if I have any message. I said, "I have many messages, but I will give them only if Rajiv comes here. I am not coming to India."

Q:* THE PEOPLE IN GERMANY ARE PARTICULARLY IRRITATED WITH YOU, REGARDING

YOUR HITLER QUOTE IN THE AUGUST ISSUE OF DER SPIEGEL IN WHICH YOU SAID YOU LOVE

THIS MAN, AND YOU COMPARED HIM MORALISTICALLY WITH MAHATMA GANDHI. COULD YOU

PLEASE PERHAPS EXPAND ON THIS AND PUT IT IN A MORE PROPER PERSPECTIVE?

A:* Yes, there have been some misunderstanding. I was condemning Mahatma Gandhi by comparing him with Adolf Hitler, not praising Adolf Hitler by comparing him with Mahatma Gandhi.

I was saying that Mahatma Gandhi and Adolf Hitler.... Mahatma Gandhi does not know anything about electricity.

Q:* ALL RIGHT, JUST GET SERIOUS FOR ONE SECOND. PEOPLE IN GERMANY ARE REALLY

UPSET AT WHY YOU KEEP SAYING, YOU LOVED HITLER. I MEAN HITLER WAS A JERK.

A:* Just.... He was a jerk, there is no doubt about it, but Mahatma Gandhi was also a jerk, and bigger jerk than Adolf Hitler.

You will have to be a little patient to understand because it is a complex problem. I consider Mahatma Gandhi not nonviolent, but his violence is introverted. He tortures himself, he tortures his wife, he tortures his sons. He tortures his followers. But the torture is in the name of religion, purity, celibacy.

Adolf Hitler is an extrovertly violent person. To give them their right names, Adolf Hitler is a sadist who enjoys torturing millions of people; Mahatma Gandhi is a masochist who also enjoys millions of people to torture themselves. But the sadist and the masochist both are sick psychologically, and both need the same treatment. None of them is a sage. And I said that I love Adolf Hitler better than Mahatma Gandhi; at 1/08/07

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least he is openly without any hypocrisy a violent man, and Gandhi is a hypocrite, and he is still a violent man. That was the reason that I said that I love. The man is a jerk and needs psychiatry, but you have to love jerks too. Even though they happen to be German jerks.

Q:* I'M AMERICAN. I HOPE YOU WEREN'T REFERRING TO ME.

A:* No, I'm not referring to you.

Q:* YOU'VE BEEN QUOTED AS SAYING YOU WOULD FIGHT OUR GOVERNMENT WITH

WEAPONS. THIS IS IN REGARD TO YOUR IMMIGRATION PROBLEMS. WHY ARE THERE SO MANY

WEAPONS HERE AT THIS COMMUNE?

A:* Just you have to see how much hostility San Francisco has against it.

Q:* OH. WHAT'S SAN FRANCISCO GOT TO DO WITH IT?

A:* Something it has to do. How much Portland hostility has against it? This small commune because it is new, strange, and people don't understand.... We are harmless, in four years we have not harmed anybody.

the commune has not done anything wrong, and the group that had done wrong has escaped. Now, if their hostility drops, our security will disappear. In fact, we don't enjoy security. Who wants one hundred people unnecessarily to be involved in security? The commune...

Q:* BUT THAT'S A VERY LARGE FORCE, AND YOU HAVE A LOT OF WEAPONS HERE PER

PERSON; IT'S EVEN MORE THAN WHAT WE HAVE IN NEW YORK CITY.

A:* It is not large, because New York City or San Francisco, or any American city is supported by the state, is supported by the federal government. You have the greatest nuclear compilation of weapons, you can destroy the whole world. So what fear you have? What problem you have? We don't have nuclear weapons. Our guns are just toy guns.

Q:* IT TOOK US ABOUT AN HOUR JUST TO GET FROM RAJNEESH TO HERE, THROUGH ONE

OF THE MOST TREACHEROUS ROADS. NOW DO YOU THINK ANYBODY IN THEIR RIGHT MIND, WHO WANTED TO COME HERE TO DO BAD FOR THE COMMUNE, WOULD BE MAKING THEIR

WAY.... YOU'VE GOT SECURITY POSTS -- I THINK I COUNTED FIVE COMING IN HERE.

A:* Just think of one thing: why that road is so torturous? The Wasco County has not repaired the road for four years continuously.

Q:* WELL, IT WAS THAT WAY WHEN YOU BOUGHT THE PLACE. YOU GOT THE PLACE "AS IS."

A:* No. No, when we purchased it, it was far better. And when we remained here for two years -- a legal city, the Wasco County has incorporated the commune as a legal city -- they were repairing the road every month, almost twice a month. And the road was perfectly good. When the declared the city illegal, they stopped repairing the road, just to create difficulties for my people. And if they can do that nonsense, and they can show their hostility in this way, we cannot trust them either.

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Query:-

Q:* YOU HAVE A ROTTEN ROAD TO GET IN HERE, SO WHO WOULD WANTA COME IN HERE

AND DO HARM TO ANYBODY?

A:* We don't want.

Q:* SO THEREFORE WHY DO YOU NEED ALL THESE WEAPONS?

A:* We don't want, we simply want to be left alone.

Q:* I MEAN, IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE THAT PEOPLE WOULD WANTA TAKE THEIR LIVES IN

THEIR HANDS.

A:*... we don't want! We are not interested at all in anybody unnecessarily travelling that hell of a road.... We want to be left alone, we want nothing to be concerned with anybody.

Q:* BUT IN FOUR YEARS THAT YOU'VE BEEN HERE, NO ONE HAS INVADED THIS PROPERTY

OR TRIED TO -- THANK GOODNESS -- TO GET AT YOU OR ANY OTHER PEOPLE IN THE

COMMUNE, NOBODY. NOBODY HAS SURROUNDED THIS PLACE WITH WEAPONS. WE HAVEN'T

SEEN THE STATE POLICE COME IN, WE HAVEN'T SEEN IRATE CITIZENS FROM THE DALLES OR

MADRAS, OR ANY OTHER PLACE COME DOWN HERE, YOU KNOW, WITH GUNS. YOU GOTTA COUPLE OF PEOPLE WHO CALL TO HARASS YOU.

A:* Just wait a minute! There have been people coming here -- Christian missionaries, Christian fanatics

-- trying to create nuisance. And they have not come because they know now that their fanaticism will not be enough. We are enough ready to face it. Otherwise, they were coming here and we had no security force.

They stopped coming here.

And you say that the military has not come, but you must have known on the television. Governor, the attorney general, and all the chief agencies of the state government had a secret meeting about Rajneeshpuram. We asked that at least the mayor of Rajneeshpuram should be there, so we are not misrepresented. If you are taking any decision, at least one person from us will be there, but they did not allow. They did not allow the press. This is, you call America and freedom of press -- they did not allow a single journalist inside. The governor said, "You wait outside. After the meeting I will give you what has happened."

And after the meeting he took the news conference, and whatever he said is absolute lie. Not a single word of it was discussed within the meeting, and whatever was discussed within the meeting, he did not say to the press. Just one journalist somehow got hold of the confidential file, which the governor was thinking has been burned. And in that file -- he has shown the file on the television. From him we have got a copy of the file, and we have put a lawsuit against the government, attorney general and the governor as a conspiracy against our commune. In that meeting they decided that the military should be kept alert, that any time, within three hours they have to reach Rajneeshpuram. And you are saying to me that military has not reached. It is alert, they can reach any moment.

Q:* BUT THEY HAVEN'T MARCHED ON RAJNEESH.

A:* They cannot, because whatever I have said is true! And they cannot because if they do anything to me, they will be opposed throughout the world.

Q:* SO YOU'RE GONNA KEEP YOUR FORCE AND YOU'RE GONNA KEEP YOUR WEAPONS?

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Query:-

A:* Yes! Unless the hostility disappears, and unless the governor starts being friendly to the commune and withdraws their unconstitutional litigations against us, the security will remain. If they withdraw everything, we will withdraw all security. We are unnecessary burdened with the security; there is no need.

Q:* IN THE MEDIA, WE HAVE REFERRED TO SHEELA AS THAT "PISTOL-PACKING MAMA,"

AND I DON'T THINK THAT YOU WOULD LIKE THAT SAME THING...

A:* No, we have dropped. Nobody is to be called "mom." We have even changed the name of this house. It used to be called Jesus House... Jesus Grove, now it will not be called Jesus Grove. Now it will be Sanai Grove. Sanai...

Q:* WHAT KIND OF CHANGES ARE YOU PLANNING?

A:* Everything.

Q:* WELL, COULD YOU GIVE A COUPLE OF SPECIFICS?

A:* Everything that we find made the commune fear, we are going to change. Everything that made the power concentrated in one hand, we are going to deconcentrate it. We are going to change every person in power fast enough so nobody takes it for granted as if it is his lifelong thing.

Q:* ARE YOU SAYING THEN THAT HASYA... THAT HER TERM OF OFFICE WILL ONLY BE FOR A CERTAIN SPECIFIED PERIOD OF TIME?

A:* Certainly.

Q:* AND THAT THEN THERE WILL BE ANOTHER CONFIDENTIAL SECRETARY?

A:* That will be the commune to decide. If Hasya proves in this time, totally a different person than Sheela, perhaps she may continue. If we have found the right person, she can continue her whole life. But if we find a slight tendency, then she will be changed.

Q:* AND WHO DETERMINES THAT?

A:* I determine.

Q:* OKAY. WHO SELECTS HASYA?

A:* Hasya is my secretary. As secretary, I select my secretary, but as president, Foundation has its own members, they choose. That is up to them, that I have nothing to do.

Q:* AS PART OF THE CHANGES AT RAJNEESHPURAM, WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE THE PLACE

BECOME A RESORT?

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A:* Yes! Certainly.

Q:* WHAT KIND OF A RESORT DO YOU ENVISION...?

A:* Everything, because we have enough land -- one hundred twenty-six square miles, three times than your New York. We can make it such a beautiful resort, with big lakes -- we have made one; one we already have. We can make big lakes, boating. We can make small villas deep in the mountains for people just to rest. We can arrange all kinds of games....

Q:* WHAT KIND OF GAMES?

A:* ANY kind, we can arrange for golf too.

Q:* HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT RECRUITING NON-RAJNEESHEE BUSINESSES TO COME

HERE AND OPEN UPSHOP?

A:* No. Just this is a meditative commune, and we don't want anybody who is not meditative -- that will be a disturbance.

Q:* HAVE YOU GOTTEN ANY WORD EXACTLY AS TO WHERE SHEELA MIGHT BE RIGHT NOW?

THE LAST WE HEARD SHE WAS IN ZURICH.

A:* The last we had heard, she was in Zurich, then in the near village in Black Forest. Now she and her new husband is in London. And the others... are not known where they are.

Q:* IT IS REPORTED THAT SHE WOULD LIKE TO OPEN A GAMBLING CASINO. WITH YOUR

MONEY?

A:* Perhaps, because she must have stolen as much money as she could. In Europe we have big communes, they have donated most of the money for this commune to happen, almost two hundred million dollars. So in Europe we have enough money in the communes, and she was moving around Europe lately in all the communes. From there she can get money. But we will be preventing; we are informing every commune that no money should be given to her.

But she may have already, before she left, she may have already shifted, siphoned money into some directions which we will discover soon. Our expert in finances is coming within two days, who will be able to find every single paise if it has disappeared from anywhere -- either from here or from Europe.

Q:* HOW MUCH MONEY DID SHE TAKE OUT OF ZURICH? I THOUGHT I UNDERSTOOD YOU

TO... YOU CITED A FIGURE OF SOME MONEY SHE TOOK OUT OF THE BANK IN ZURICH.

A:* No. That was not big -- her husband has taken -- that was not...

Q:* BUT THAT WAS YOUR MONEY, OR THE MONEY OF THE COMMUNE?

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A:* Of the commune.

Q:* OF THE COMMUNE. BUT YOU DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH OF THAT MONEY SHE STOLE IN

ZURICH.

A:* It was not much...

HASYA: We're not sure, but I think something like a thousand francs.

A:* Five thousand at the most. It was not much. It was not much.

Q:* SHE DIDN'T GET HER HANDS ON MILLIONS OF DOLLARS THERE?

A:* That is possible, because she has left the commune in fifty-five million dollar debt. And she never said it to me.

Just few days before, I had asked the finance department head, how much debt you have. She said, only two and half million. And now suddenly it is fifty-five million within two months; it seems too much. How it has become fifty-five million?

Q:* WHAT MADE YOU ASK THE FINANCE MINISTER -- OR WHATEVER HIS OR HER TITLE IS --

ABOUT THIS DEBT?

A:* I asked because they had made a housing system, a housing complex in City of Rajneesh for two hundred fifty couples, and they had given me the impression that it is for sannyasins. And it is a beautiful complex: each room with attached bathroom for single couple. It is beautiful, with all facilities. So I said it is perfectly good. Suddenly, Sheela came with the idea that we can make it a AIDS home.

That, I refused. I said that is not right.

I simply refused, that this cannot be done. This will be endangering all the nearby people, this will be endangering our commune, and I will not support that. So you stop that. So exactly on 4th I came to know, and on 5th, they were going to have the conference, and it had to be cancelled.

I inquired because of that complex, that how much money you have put in that complex, and what you are going to do it now, because AIDS home I will not allow.

Q:* THEY DON'T EVEN WANT AIDS HOMES IN NEW YORK CITY.

A:* No, nowhere, nobody wants. Only Vatican should be compelled to have all the AIDS from all over the world! Because homosexuality is created by their monasteries, and AIDS is the only contribution that Christianity has given to the world.

Q:* IS SUICIDE A PART OF YOUR RELIGION, BECAUSE YOU DO TEACH SUICIDE?

A:* No. My teaching is life-affirmative. Suicide has no place in it. I want to people live as long as possible, with as much health as possible, with as much joy, fun, laughter. Suicide comes nowhere in my vision. Suicide is a Christian idea. The cross symbolizes suicide, and Jesus says, "Everybody has to carry his cross on his shoulders." I say, "Everybody has to carry his guitar on his shoulders." And Jesus looked suicidal -- his face. I don't think he has ever laughed -- at least there is no reference in BIBLE.

Q:* WHY DID YOU LET SHEELA LEAVE? I MEAN, DID YOU TRY TO STOP HER IN ANY WAY?

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A:* I had told you before that I was in isolation, and I was in silence, and I was not in contact what was happening.

Q:* WHEN YOU FOUND OUT THAT SHEELA HAD LEFT HERE WHAT EXACTLY DID YOU DO?

A:* Nothing. There is nothing to do. She has left.

Q:* DID IT SURPRISE YOU?

A:* Nothing surprises me.

Q:* DID YOU CALL SOMEBODY ON THE PHONE AND SAY, "WHAT HAPPENED?"

A:* No. No. I simply go my own way. It was time for me to go for my bath. And it takes one-and-half hour for me.

Q:* YOU MEAN YOU DIDN'T GET UPSET, YOU DIDN'T ASK ANYBODY ANY QUESTIONS?

A:* No. Nothing upsets me. That is the difference between an unenlightened person and an enlightened person. Nothing disturbs me, nothing upsets me. I take things, accept it. Whatsoever happened was to happen.

Q:* BUT IF YOU WERE ENLIGHTENED, SHOULDN'T YOU HAVE FIGURED OUT THAT THAT'S

WHAT SHE WAS GOING TO DO?

A:* Enlightenment does not mean that you can know future. If you can know future then there is no freedom, then future is already determined. If future is already determined, then only you can know anything about it. To me, future is always open, undetermined and free. So enlightenment cannot help you to know nature of the future.

Q:* DO YOU PLAN TO TALK TO THE FBI YOURSELF AND GIVE A DEPOSITION ABOUT

SHEELA?

A:* If they ask me. My attorney power is with my secretary.

Q:* WELL, WOULD SHE BE GIVING IT, OR WOULD YOU BE GIVING IT?

A:* She will be giving it. But if they ask, and if it is necessary...

Q:* BECAUSE THAT'S USUALLY NOT THE WAY THE FBI WORKS.

A:* I don't know. I have never...

Q:* I WRITE ON CRIMINAL MATTERS, AND I KNOW THAT.

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A:* We will see. If they want to interview me, I am perfectly happy. To me, it makes no difference whether it is a journalist or an FBI officer.

Q:* THERE ARE SOME SANNYASINS WHO FEEL THEY HAVE BEEN BETRAYED, BECAUSE OF

THIS BUSINESS WITH SHEELA. DO YOU EXPECT PEOPLE TO LEAVE THE RANCH NOW?

A:* No, more people will be coming to the ranch who has left. Nobody is going to leave.

Q:* HOW ARE YOU HANDLING THE SANNYASINS WHO DO FEEL BETRAYED?

A:* Mm, that is just momentary and emotional thing. Within two to three weeks it will settle. There is nothing to be worried about it. I understand human mind -- that is my business. There is nothing to be worried.

Q:* AT THE TIME THAT SHEELA LEFT, DID YOU KNOW SHE HAD COMMITTED THESE

CRIMES?

A:* No.

Q:* OR DID YOU FIND THIS OUT AFTER SHE LEFT?

A:* After she left, only then. Otherwise she would not have been allowed to leave.

Q:* ARE THERE ANY MORE RUMORS, YOU KNOW, THINGS FLOATING AROUND THAT YOU

WANTA SHARE WITH US?

A:* I am not going to collect from people. Whoever comes to the office, to the secretary, to the president, and reports them, they inform me. So whenever anything comes, it can be informed to you immediately.

Q:* SO WHAT'S NEW NOW?

A:* Nothing. All that I have told you.

Q:* WHY DO YOU WEAR A TURQUOISE ROBE? I MEAN, WHY ARE YOU NOT DRESSED IN RED?

AT THE FIRST FESTIVAL HERE IT WAS VERY HOT, AND YOU ALSO WORE THE CAP OVER YOUR

HEAD. AND I KEPT THINKING, "THE MAN'S GOTTA BE OUT OF HIS MIND TO WEAR A HAT!"

(INAUDIBLE BECAUSE SO MUCH LAUGHTER)

A:* It is true. The man is out of his mind. Cap or no cap, but the man is out of his mind.

But you are not aware that my podium is air-conditioned. So you must be feeling hot, I was not feeling hot.

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Query:-

Q:* BUT I SAW YOU IN THE CAR, AND THE CAR YOU WERE DRIVING THEN...

A:*... is air-conditioned.

Q:* IT WAS A HUNDRED AND TWENTY-FIVE OUT!

A:* Yes. It is always there just to keep all kinds of idiotic thoughts that are moving in the air, to keep them out.

Q:* WHY DO YOU WEAR THIS COLOR ROBE?

A:* This is not the only robe. I have many.

Q:* SO WHY DO YOU NOT WEAR A RED COLORED ROBE?

A:* I am not a sannyasin, I am nobody's disciple.

Q:* UH, WOULD YOU LIKE TO COME OVER TO GERMANY FOR A VISIT?

A:* Only after my green card happens, otherwise I am not going to move out of this place.

Q:* WHAT'RE YOU GONNA DO WHEN YOU GET YOUR GREEN CARD? GO TO WORK?

A:* If they want me to go out, they can send the green card tomorrow. They have already delayed it for four years -- which is absolutely illegal -- without any reason. And I have every reason to get it. They have only six classes you can apply for the green card. I have applied on five counts, and they have not been able to refuse even on a single count. And I have told them that if you don't, then I will apply on the sixth count also -- I can get married. That is the only one that is not.... I am still unmarried.

Q:* YOU WILL GET MARRIED IF NECESSARY?

A:* I can get married to as many women as no man has been married ever! Just ask the people of INS

how many thousands women are needed for me to marry for the green card. I have one million sannyasins.

Out of one million sannyasins, eighty thousand...

Q:* ARE AMERICAN.

A:* All* of all American.

Q:* OKAY. ARE YOU SAYING, AND CAN I QUOTE YOU AS SAYING, THAT IF THEY DO NOT GIVE

YOU YOUR GREEN CARD YOU WILL MARRY.

A:* No. First I will fight on these five points.

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Query:-

Q:* AND IF YOU LOSE?

A:* No, because each point will take at least twenty years. Within five points, fighting separately on each point up to the Supreme Court, they all will be dead, I will be dead, and there will be no need for any marriage.

Q:* BUT WOULD YOU MARRY IF IT WAS THE ONLY WAY YOU COULD GET A GREEN CARD?

A:* I am saying that I can marry...

Q:* I SAID TO YOU, "WOULD YOU MARRY IF THAT WAS YOUR TICKET TO A GREEN CARD?"

A:* No.

Q:* WHY NOT?

A:* Not just for green card....

Q:* YOU JUST SAID THAT THERE WERE EIGHTY THOUSAND U.S. SANNYASIN FEMALES.

A:* Yes. I can marry eighty thousand not less than that.

Q:* DO YOU EVER PLAN TO GET MARRIED?

A:* I will have to inquire my legal people.

Q:* YOU WOULD HAVE TO INQUIRE OF WHOM?

A:* My legal people. I have a legal firm. We have four hundred sannyasins who are law experts. I have to inquire them, whether according to American constitution marrying eighty thousand women is okay.

Q:* WOULD YOU GET MARRIED? FORGET ABOUT YOUR INS PROBLEMS...

A:* No.

Q:* YOU INTEND TO REMAIN A BACHELOR?

A:* No. There is no need for me to marry. I love so many women that it is very difficult to choose whom to marry. And I am not a celibate, I am just a bachelor.

Q:* ARE YOU GETTING TIRED?

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A:* No, because you are looking at the watch.... Just your last question.

(Tape side D begins here)

Q:* IS THERE ANYTHING THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO SAY TO OUR READERS REGARDING

THIS CURRENT SITUATION AND HOW TO REASSURE THEM?

A:* I would like to say to your readers that the going of away of Sheela and her gang is a great rejoicing for my people here, because they were the cause of creating a rift between the commune and the Oregonians, between the commune and the Americans. Now that they are gone the rift need not exist.

For example, I have advised my people that the City of Rajneesh should be renamed again Antelope. It is not good to hurt unnecessarily neighbors, and I have told Antelope people that you should purchase your properties back. Although we have improved your properties -- we have put much money in renovation, prices have gone high in four years -- but we will give you in the same price as we had purchased. If you purchase all the properties, we will vacate Antelope. We don't want any political involvement. We are not political people at all. That is not our interest.

And finally I would like to tell to the whole America that don't treat my commune against the Constitution, because the American Constitution is the only hope for humanity. And if you behave with us unconstitutionally we will have to fight for the Constitution against Americans. That will be a very strange position.

I will also like to Americans to know that everybody in America, except red Indians, is a foreigner. It does not matter whether you came three hundred years ago or two hundred years ago or four years ago.

Time does not matter. You may have come a little earlier; we have come a little later. But we are Americans and we are proud of it.

Just the last thing: an anecdote, a real story. One of the greatest mind of this century, George Gurdjieff, was dying. His disciples were gathered to listen to his last message. He was dying in Paris. He opened his eyes and said, "Bravo, America" and died. Since then Gurdjieff's disciples have not been able to figure out why he said, "Bravo, America." It was so unexpected, so unrelated with anything; but I say to my disciples that that message was for me and for my people. I am immensely connected with the Gurdjieffian system of thought. And America certainly is the place where the new man is going to be born. The old countries are too old. Countries like India are almost so dead.

America is the only possibility that we can uncondition people's mind and make them fresh and young.

So Gurdjieff's message is my message also. Bravo, America.

Q:* AND, BHAGWAN, IF YOU COULD TALK TO SHEELA RIGHT NOW, WHAT WOULD YOU TELL

HER? BECAUSE SHE WILL PROBABLY BE READING THIS IN OUR PAPERS IN EUROPE. PERHAPS

YOU WOULD LIKE TO GIVE SHEELA AND HER GANG A MESSAGE.

A:* If she was here, she will be crying and weeping, and I would have to wash her tears. And she will read this, she will cry and weep, and when somebody is weeping it is better not to say anything, but just to wipe the tears and bring the smile back to the face. I will not say anything.

Q:* DO YOU WANT TO SEE HER IN JAIL?

A:* No. Never.

Q:* WELL DON'T YOU FEEL SHE SHOULD BE PROSECUTED IF THERE HAS BEEN ANY CRIMES

COMMITTED?

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A:* If there has been any crime, then she be put in a mental hospital. She should be treated. She is psychologically sick. And that is my attitude about all criminals, not only about Sheela. No punishment is human, it is just primitive, rude, barbarian. Any cultured society will treat its criminals as psychological patients. So I would like her to be put into a psychiatric nursing home, with respect. Because whatsoever a person does, that is one thing; but his being is totally different. No act defines your being. A man who commits murder should not be called murderer, because it makes his being synonymous with murder.

Q:* WHAT SHOULD HE BE CALLED?

A:* He should be called a man who has committed an act of murder. But his individuality is a far bigger thing, far more valuable, and that individuality can change him. His future can be that of one of the most creative person. So I am against criminals being punished, sent to jail, given death sentence. That is all barbarious.

If Sheela is found and her gang is proved criminal, we have our own university, we have our psychotherapists. If they cannot find any other place, we can take those people and treat them. Or they can find some other place and treat them there.

Every criminal needs respect, love, compassion, and treatment.

Q:* FINALLY, DO YOU OBJECT TO BEING CALLED THE SEX GURU?

A:* I object absolutely.

Q:* WHAT DO YOU WANT TO BE CALLED? WHAT DO YOU WANT THE MEDIA IN THIS

COUNTRY AND ABROAD TO REFER TO YOU AS? WE ALWAYS REFER TO YOU AS THE SEX GURU

OR THE GURU WHO ADVOCATES FREE LOVE... OR THE RICH MAN'S GURU?

A:* That's just cheap journalism.

Q:* BUT YOU HAVE ADVOCATED FREE LOVE?

A:* Do you think that I should advocate that love should be charged? Then you will call me a guru for prostitution. Love has to be free. Two persons decide to love. It is nobody else business to interfere.

Q:* SO THEN YOU DON'T OBJECT TO BEING CALLED THE LOVE GURU, IS THAT IT?

A:* I object to be called a guru.

Q:* WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE US TO CALL YOU?

A:* I would like simply to be called Bhagwan which means the Blessed One, because I am so blissful --

that qualifies me. Anything else is cheap journalism, and I don't think that you will be so cheap.

Q:* I WON'T. THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

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The Last Testament, Vol 2

Chapter #29

Chapter title: None

20 September 1985 pm in Sanai Grove

Archive code: 8509205

ShortTitle: LAST229

Audio:

Yes

Video:

Yes

Length: 111 mins

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

INTERVIEW WITH STERN MAGAZINE, AND ZDF-TV, WEST GERMANY

(Introduction inaudible. This does not appear to be Stern Magazine but another German interviewer.) QUESTION:* TODAY YOU BLAMED SANNYASINS FOR HAVING CREATED A SHEELA AND HER

GANG. ISN'T THAT TOO EASY? WHY DON'T YOU BLAME YOURSELF AS WELL? AFTER ALL, SHEELA WAS ONE OF YOUR CLOSEST SANNYASINS FOR MANY YEARS.

ANSWER:* I blame myself not only for Sheela but for Adolf Hitler too, for Genghis Khan, Tamerlane, Nadir Shah, Napoleon Bonaparte, Alexander the Great, Ivan the Terrible. I blame for all myself, because I am part of this existence. Anything that happens here, in some way or other I am connected with it.

And you are wrong that I have not blamed myself.

Q:* HOW DID YOU BLAME YOURSELF? COULD YOU EXPLAIN IT?

A:* No, because just I was silent. Not to be in it is not enough to be innocent. I was not in it, but it would not have happened if I was not silent.

I was silent for my own reason. I was not silent for Sheela and her gang. I was silent for my own reasons. I always wanted to remain silent for a long period. I was not even yet willingly ready to speak again. It was just seeing the situation, I have to come out of silence.

So certainly I blame myself, but not only for Sheela. If my being silent I am responsible for Sheela, then not being born in Germany while Hitler was there, I am responsible. The same logic.

Q:* YOU MEAN THAT SERIOUSLY?

A:* Seriously? Why I was not born in Germany while Hitler was there? Then I am the criminal for the whole criminal history of humanity.

You are making me a god, and I am a simple human being.

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Q:* I WOULDN'T AGREE WITH THAT, BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT OF CULT SURROUNDING YOU

AND CULT BASICALLY LEADS ALWAYS TO A CERTAIN KIND OF BLINDNESS.

A:* There is no cult surrounding me. Your eyes must be blind.

Q:* BUT AT LEAST YOUR DISCIPLES....

A:* There are no disciples here. They are my friends. And I am nobody's leader. So make yourself clear about it.

Q:* IS THE DREAM TO LIVE NOW AND TODAY WITHOUT THINKING OF THE FUTURE GONE?

IF YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN THINKING ON THE FUTURE, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN REVEALED

WHAT SHEELA DID.

A:* No. Future is not determined as almost all the religions have been preaching and conditioning people's mind. Future is determined, then it can be known. If it is not determined, it cannot be known -- not even the second moment, that what is going to happen.

And I say that future is not determined. There is no God to determine it. And it is good that it is not determined, because that is our basis for freedom. Certainly freedom brings its own responsibilities. You can misuse it. Do you want people to be just robots who will never commit anything wrong?

Just because few people commit wrong, just because few people turn to be Nazi, do you want everybody should be turned into a machine?

Freedom is so valuable that we can risk everything, but we cannot lose freedom.

I have risked God and saved freedom. Both cannot exist together. If there is a God who created man, then man is just a puppet. If there is a God who decides what is to happen, then there is no freedom. Then the sinner is not responsible for his sin, neither the saint is responsible for his holiness. Both are puppets, and puppets are not different.

I completely remove God from the picture of my way of life. There is no God. Then the whole sky is open. But it has risks.

But to be afraid of risks is not to be a man. At least a German should not think of becoming a mouse. To be a man means to take risks.

It was a risk. And we have come out of it without losing anything. On the contrary, we have learned much.

Q:* WAS IT EVEN A LESSON FOR YOU?

A:* No, not for me. I have learned everything that could be learned. Now there is nothing to be learned for me.

Q:* COULD YOU ELABORATE A LITTLE HOW THEY PLANNED TO KILL YOU, HOW THEY

PLANNED TO ASSASSINATE YOU?

A:* First, they were afraid that I may start speaking again. It is understandable because my teaching is never to believe. Doubt is the basis of my philosophy. Go on doubting until you come to a reality which is indubitable. And then the question of belief does not arise. You know.

So I say either you know or you do not. There is no third category. A believer is one who knows not and yet pretends that he knows.

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Q:* MAY I INTERRUPT YOU? BECAUSE I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHETHER YOU SEE NOW

THE SANNYASINS BEING ALL THE TIME MORE BELIEVERS THAN PEOPLE WHICH DOUBTED?

A:* My s....

Q:*... WHAT YOU TRIED TO TEACH THEM?

A:* Just wait. Let me finish my first thing. Otherwise you will never end and you won't get any answer clearly.

They were afraid that if I start speaking again, then I will create a totally different atmosphere that was there in India. In India nothing like this happened in thirty years. And thousands of people were there.

Just in four years it happened in America. I was silent; Sheela and her gang could make people surrender, believe. That is the criterion. And people have listened it for thousands of years, that that is the basis of all religion. So it was very easy. It was according to their conditioning that they believed her, surrendered themselves totally, blindly.

So they were afraid that once I start speaking people will be in a totally different atmosphere. They will doubt, they will argue, they will want to be convinced. Just simple surrender will not be possible. And no fascist mind would like that.

She was persuading me not to speak because it may endanger my health. I said, "You don't be worried about my health. I know my health. Now it is being endangered by not doing anything, remaining in isolation. I have recovered perfectly and I would like to speak. And tomorrow you make the arrangements and I speak."

The moment I started speaking, the whole commune was excited, ecstatic, except Sheela and her gang.

They were sad because their whole power was gone. Their power was that they were representing me, and whatever they wanted they were telling to people that, "This is what Bhagwan wants." And there was no way for the sannyasins to check it, whether I want it or not.

So first they tried to kill... even when I was in silence, three persons who were intimate to me and for whom I was available even in silence -- my physician who used to come to check me, my dentist who was looking after my teeth, and my caretaker who was carrying my food, my tea, my fruit juice -- first they tried to poison these three people. They poisoned my caretaker, but we could not think of it.

Q:* DID HE BECOME SICK?

A:* She became sick. She had just taken a cup of tea in Sheela's house and she came home and her heart started beating so fast. The doctors could not believe. She is perfectly healthy. There is no disease. There is no reason for her heart to fast... so fast. It took three hours for them to bring her heart to its normal position.

But nobody suspected.

It was out of question that anybody will poison her, who has been taking care of my body for fifteen years, even when Sheela was not there. She had been seven years before Sheela.

Then they poisoned my doctor, my physician. In the same way, he took a cup of coffee. But because he is a physician, one of the best mind, having all the best qualifications from England -- the youngest doctor to be accepted in the Royal Society of England -- he immediately suspected poisoning.

He was hospitalized, but the poison that was used was indetectible. Two, three days rest and he came out. But he started becoming weak after that. He has never been sick and never weak like that.

Second time they tried to inject poison while he was in the hospital, because Sheela's nurse who was taking care of Sheela used to go there, and she injected. Again he suspected that he has been poisoned.

So it started becoming clear that something wrong is going somewhere. And third time he was poisoned while I started speaking. And he was poisoned in a public meeting where fifteen thousand sannyasins were present.

And now we have the witness who saw the woman who injected him. That woman has also escaped with the gang. And he immediately pulled his robe and showed the people around: blood coming out and the 1/08/07

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spot where the injection was given.

He refused to go to the same medical center, because if they can do it in the middle of fifteen thousand people, in the hospital it is not reliable. So we had to send him to Bend. The doctors there also could not find any disease, but he was sick and there was no disease.

To the wife of the doctor they said -- she is here, Hasya is the wife of my physician -- the doctor said to him that, "All that we can assume is poisoning, because there is no disease, no symptoms of any disease, and he is so sick."

And he gave the other idea, that just one year before exactly the same case has happened with the attorney of Jefferson County: no disease and the same kind of weakness, as if the person is going to die.

And when Hasya told me this, then things became even more connected because our commune's property lies half in Wasco County and half in Jefferson County, and the attorney of Jefferson County was not allowing us to do anything on that land.

Half of the land -- we have one hundred twenty-six square miles land -- half of the land, fifty miles or more, is in Jefferson County and we wanted to make few cottages for farmers there, and farming, gardening.... But he was adamant.

Perhaps the same group was behind the poisoning of that man.

Just yesterday one of the doctors informed that she was poisoned in Sheela's house. Perhaps they were only experimenting, because the poison was such that only her tongue became paralyzed. She could not speak for twenty-four hours.

Perhaps that was their experiment for me.

If I can be poisoned and I cannot speak, that will be great. I am living -- that will help them. I cannot speak -- that will help them.

And then she insisted continuously that she needs a key of my bedroom from the outside for security reasons.

I said, "I don't see what is the point of having a key from the outside for security reasons. Guards are there. Phone is there. You can inform if any problem is there."

And finally we had to take the key from her, because that insistence for key certainly was while I am asleep either to inject me or to do something, one does not know.

Yesterday the man who takes care of the cows informed that he was told to put a certain quantity of poison in my blood every day... in my milk every day, so in a long period it will kill me and nobody will suspect.

And since they have left, so many people have come up with so many amazing facts, and they were all afraid of them because if they can kill me.... And they had already killed one man and just threw his body out of the Rancho Rajneesh. The body was found by the police but they could not find who has done it.

They were immensely afraid, in deep fear. So they followed whatever was told to them.

She had arranged a Share-Home program last year for street people. She said that it is not for voting purposes, but it seems it was for voting purposes, to take over the Wasco County. And I am an absolutely non-political person and I have been teaching my people not to be political. That is a third-rate being, to be in a third-class humanity.

Those who cannot be anything else, let them be politicians. If you can be a singer, be a singer. If you can be a dancer, be a dancer, a painter. Be something creative. Politics is simply destructive. The whole history is full of politics and destruction. So I am absolutely apolitical.

So even to me she lied that, "It is not for political purposes. In fact, we have surplus money out of the annual festival and we want to do some humanitarian work."

I said, "If it is humanitarian work, good."

So those three thousand street people were brought in, but to convince them to vote was not a easy thing. So a certain poison in gallons was imported from the outside, and all those people were given that poison in food, in tea, in this, in that, and they were kept drugged, almost in a robot situation, so whatsoever you want them to do they will do.

By mistake they poisoned one man too much. He died. They just threw his body out of the Rancho Rajneesh.

As people started opening their mouths, because now they are not afraid at all, we have come to know that they burned one of the Wasco County planning offices because they wanted to burn all the documents concerning Rajneeshpuram -- and they succeeded. They burned the whole house completely.

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the Wasco County office, and before crashing it jump in a parachute, to destroy the whole county office and perhaps few other houses surrounding. The man refused. Because he refused, he was immediately sent to Germany in a small commune there so that he does not say it to anybody else.

As he heard that those people have left, he immediately phoned, that, "I want to come and I have a story to say." He is back.

Now, this gang was completely murderous, inhuman. And why it happened: I was unavailable to the commune. I was silent. I did not want to be interfered -- no phone. For five years I have not read any newspaper, have not seen any television.

(There is an interruption by the camera crew.)

This whole group was not basically bad. This is my understanding, that nobody is basically bad, but every body carries in his unconscious many potentialities. He can become a god, he can become a devil. It is only a question of opportunity.

Simply they got the opportunity: five thousand people ready to trust without questioning, and they were trusting because of me. They were not trusting Sheela. Their minds were saying that this is not the right thing, but if Bhagwan wants it, then there must be something right.

These people are innocent, and they saw the opportunity and their unconscious desire to be powerful, to take over Antelope, to take over Wasco County, became bigger and bigger. the people were not basically wrong.

When I had chosen Sheela as my secretary she was a simple woman, in every way a beautiful person.

but everybody's unconscious -- and below the unconscious is the collective unconscious -- is full of animality, because it comes from animal heritage. Nothing can be said about it, at what point, in what opportunity it will start asserting.

But the moment I became aware that something is going wrong, and this was the chance....

They created a home, a complex of homes, in Antelope and they wanted to make it an AIDS home just to create nuisance for Oregonians, because it will become a danger to everybody around. Hospitals are refusing, families are refusing, people are committing suicide. So from all over America AIDS people will start moving to Antelope.

And to me they said they are making a beautiful housing colony for sannyasins, particularly for festival purposes.

I said, "That's okay."

Only the last day when they were going to inaugurate it, they wanted me to be present. I inquired what exactly it is. Then they told me that, "We are going to make a AIDS home."

I refused and I said, "This cannot be done. You are not only risking Oregonians, you are risking your own commune too. Your doctors will have to go there, your nurses will have to go there. And those people, if they want to come to listen to me, you cannot prevent. You are risking your own people. This I will not allow. So cancel the press conference."

That day it became clear to me, looking at Sheela's eyes, that the bridge between us is broken.

And since that time she started remaining more and more out of America -- in Europe, in Australia --

finding any excuse that there is work. We have communes everywhere and the work was always there. But after that day the work was so much that she could not come back here even for the ceremony.

She came three days before. There was no need, because she came from Switzerland here. And in Switzerland she did again another crime. She was married to an American and she got married to a Swiss man, because she was planning now. Here there is no possibility for her ego trip, but in Europe I am not there but my communes are there; she can still have the ego trip.

So she got married to the chief of the commune in Zurich -- without getting divorced. And when she was told by her husband that, "This is stupid. I will also be a criminal with you," so she ran away to Nepal, because in Nepal -- it is such a poor country that you can bribe any magistrate and can get a divorce backdated -- so she got a backdated divorces from Nepal.

And then she came here just to pack up things, particularly those things that may prove dangerous to her. She was collecting all kinds of poison, she was collecting materials to make bombs.

And in those three days she didn't come to see me. And there is very simple reason not to see me, that you have a cold, because I am allergic. So she said that she has cold; when her cold is okay she will come and see to me.

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And without seeing me -- just she wrote a note that she is leaving, and leaving forever, and she is resigning from the post and leaving all legal papers for resignation etcetera with the proper people. And by the time I received her note, she has left.

She collected the people, those who want to come with her -- and she threatened them, because, "You will be found criminal if you don't come with me." So twenty people who were afraid now that if they are left behind and things are exposed they will be in trouble went with her -- unwillingly.

One woman returned from Seattle back. She said whatever happens, but she is not going to leave the commune. Another person has phoned that he wants to come back. And soon they all will be in difficulty, because they are hiding in Black Forest in Germany like criminals. And how long you can hide? And where you can hide?

We have informed American government, Swiss government, Swiss police, German police, and we have our own sannyasins everywhere. We are getting report where they are every day.

Q:* DO YOUR SANNYASINS CHASE HER?

A:* No. There is no need. There is no need. But twenty persons moving anywhere -- and Sheela is well known in Germany -- anybody will recognize. Anybody will inform other sannyasins that they have seen Sheela with twelve other people... twenty other people.

So no harm on a big scale has happened, but they were preparing. And we have found after they have gone, in their house, literature how to make bombs, chemicals and other things -- poisons, books on poisons, a particular page underlined with the same poison that my physician was thinking has been given to him because that is not detectable. And it does not kill you immediately, it simply weakens you. Just you have to go on giving over a period of time: it will kill you but you will die almost like a natural death.

And we have found -- just Hasya has moved, now she is the president of the foundation -- in her room they have found that under the room, underneath, they have rooms and a tunnel which goes far away to get out. In any case if police is going to arrest her, takes the whole house, surrounded, she can still escape. And those rooms, perhaps for some people who are rebellious to put them there, to drug them there or kill them there-we don't know what was the purpose of having those rooms underneath.

We are making it available -- everything -- to the police. And we are making available all kinds of witnesses, for everything that they have done.

They bugged houses, they bugged my own room.

Q:* WHAT IS ACTUALLY YOUR FEELING NOW TOWARDS SHEELA AND WHAT WOULD YOU DO

IF SHE WOULD COME BACK?

A:* I will take her back. We have a university here, and we have all kinds of therapies here. She needs some psychotherapy, a long treatment.

I have all compassion for her, and the same love and the same trust, because my love is unconditional.

What she has done makes no difference to it. In fact, I am worried about her because she must be unnecessarily suffering. There was no need to go anywhere. She could have simply come to me and told to me that these are the things that she has done.

And we would have entered her into the therapies and all her colleagues into the therapies and treated them.

This is my attitude about all criminals, not only her. I am against punishment because punishment has not transformed anybody in the whole history. Still we go on doing the same thing all over the world. We are barbarious.

A man kills somebody and you kill the man, give him a death sentence or a lifelong imprisonment, which is even worse. His act was crime and your act is justice. Both the acts are same. Just he is a poor single individual and you have power of the society, of the state, of the military, of the government.

But you are doing the same thing. It is revenge, it is not justice.

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have turned into a saint. And what right you have got? All that you can do is that... that man has something wrong with his psychology, that her hormones are not harmonious. Something chemically wrong.

And that's what has happened with Sheela. She was raped when she was only sixteen, and raped by a man who was her father's friend, old. And she had always respected the man as her uncle. He used to stay in their house. The father and the mother had gone out and only the uncle was in the house, and he raped her.

She became pregnant. In those days in India abortion was not legal, so she had to go through that indignity of an illegal abortion.

I think that scar is deep in her being. She hates Indians, one thing. And something in her wants to take revenge with the whole society.

She is not conscious of all that, but it is there.

So I will not do anything else than be more loving to her than I have ever been to her, because these are the moments when a person needs more love, more respect, more acceptance. And I will give her to the university to treat her, to bring all her unconscious out. It is just a question of vomiting the unconscious out.

And once you are clean such a thing cannot happen again.

And this is my general attitude about the whole idea of jurisprudence, criminology. Strange it is: a person tries to commit suicide and fails, and then the court gives him death sentence because he was trying to commit suicide and failed. Now they help him to succeed. Great minds are creating our laws and our courts.

A man steals something very small and he is sent to jail. He is just amateur and perhaps in his situation anybody would have stolen. Perhaps he was hungry, he needed medicine, his mother was dying, he needed medicine. And you imprison him for two years in the jail where he meets great experts, criminals, master thiefs. And in those two years he graduates. He had come as an amateur, now he comes out as a professional thief.

Because it is a simple idea amongst all criminals that to commit crime is not crime, but to be caught is crime. So just you have to be very careful, intelligent, aware, that you are not caught. Then do whatsoever you want to do. Doing is not a problem at all, just don't get caught.

Punishment helps only to create more criminals. Your imprisoned people, which are in millions around the earth, are just getting training. Your jails are universities for criminology. And your courts serve the crime, not the culture.

So that will be my attitude of all those people. If they come back they will receive not only my love but my whole commune's love. Whatever they did, perhaps they were unconsciously doing it, not knowing what they are doing.

We can clean their unconscious, we can make them more aware, we can clean them, we can give them a new birth.

Okay?

INTERVIEW WITH ERIC FALWELL(?) FROM STERN MAGAZINE, GERMANY

Q:* I THINK THAT YOU ONCE SAID IN POONA, "IT MAY NOT LOOK LIKE, BUT I KNOW EXACTLY

WHAT IS GOING ON IN MY COMMUNE." WHAT IS YOUR EXPLANATION THAT YOU OBVIOUSLY

DID NOT KNOW ANYTHING THAT WAS GOING ON HERE IN THIS COMMUNE?

A:* What I have said in Poona was a totally different situation.

I was available to the commune every morning for discourse two hours, every evening two hours. The secretary was coming twice a day -- one hour in the morning, one hour in the night -- to inform me about every detail. And the whole day I was available.

Whenever there was any need, it should be informed to me. If they have to take any action which is out of the way, they have to ask me. That's why I had said that, "Whatever happens here, I know about it."

Here the situation was totally different. I was in silence and in isolation, and my instruction was that only Sheela will come every evening for one hour; that too only when she has urgent work that she cannot handle. And she should inform me only things which are absolutely necessary and have to be informed. So for three and half year I was completely out of the world: not a single newspaper, no book, no television, no radio, no information what is going on, what is not going on.

When in Poona I had said that I know everything, people thought that it is something esoteric. To me all esoterics is bullshit. It was not anything esoteric. It was simply my availability.

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And I was living... and Poona was a very concentrated place: only six acres in which two thousand sannyasins were living who were working. And eight thousand sannyasins were living outside the commune for which we were not responsible in any way.

Here the situation is different. It is eighty-four thousand acres. Just think: six acres and eighty-four thousand acres. It is almost impossible for me to know everything what is happening, where it is happening.

There are five thousand sannyasins living here, separated by hills in different places. Nobody knows what they are doing in their rooms. And I am not a peeping Tom.

Q:* BHAGWAN, YOU SAID YOU ARE A LOVER NOT A LEADER....

A:* Yes.

Q:*... YOU ARE NOT THE RULER IN THIS COMMUNE AND THERE ARE NO RULED.

A:* Yes.

Q:* BUT SOME SANNYASINS OBVIOUSLY ARE PREPARED TO DO EVERYTHING WHEN THEY

ARE TOLD THAT IT IS YOUR WISH. THEY MAY EVEN KILL FOR YOU. DOES THIS FRIGHTEN YOU?

A:* No. This does not frighten me. This just makes me aware of a human paradox.

I am telling my people, "I am not your leader." I am telling my people, "I am not your Master, not a messiah, not a prophet, not a savior. I am just a human being like you -- with a very little difference, that my eyes are open and your eyes are closed, which is not much of a difference. You can open your eyes any moment you want.

"So there is no need to put me on a high pedestal. And there is no need to sacrifice for me. I have never sacrificed for anyone, and I will not want anybody to sacrifice for me."

But this is what I am saying is the paradox: the more I say this the more they love me.

Now the only alternative is that I should start teaching them that, "Die for me. Whenever there is need, immediately jump into the lake and die." But then I will be condemned that I am teaching them....

And there is no third alternative. These are the only two alternatives.

Q:* DOES IT MAKE YOU SAD THAT YOU ARE SO OFTEN MISUNDERSTOOD AND OBVIOUSLY

BY YOUR OWN....

A:* No. Not sad, not sad because I understand the situation of the human mind. It is expected. You feel sad when you come across unexpected things. I have nothing which is unexpected, so nothing makes me sad, nothing disappoints me, nothing makes me frustrated because I don't have any expectation. Whatever happens, I take it for granted that it was to happen.

Q:* BHAGWAN, YOU TELL YOUR SANNYASINS THAT THE COMMUNE IS NOT A VOTING CLUB, THAT THEIR OPINION DOES NOT COUNT MUCH BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT ENLIGHTENED. DOES

THIS NOT MAKE THEM MORE DEPENDENT ON YOU?

A:* No. My emphasis is that they should become enlightened! Then only whatever they say has some value. Right now they are talking in their sleep. It has no value.

For example, Germany is one of the most intelligent country in the world but it voted Hitler. What you can make of it? Such a intelligent group of people -- people like Martin Heidegger, one of the best minds in the whole history of man -- were in favor of Adolf Hitler. The reason is, intelligence makes no difference.

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Unless you are enlightened, your opinions are going to be wrong and anybody can exploit them.

So my emphasis is not that you remain sleeping and I will do the work; you depend on me. My emphasis is that, how long I can be here? So be quick and be awake. Next time, next morning, I may be gone.

Q:* WHEN NOBODY IS DICTATING, THEN YOUR SANNYASINS, I THINK THIS WAS IN YOUR

OWN WORDS: "COULD BECOME LAZY. THE COMMUNE COULD FALL APART." DO YOU THINK

THAT YOUR SANNYASINS NEED A WHIP? I MEAN, THE SAME PEOPLE YOU CALL PROBABLY THE

HIGHEST EXPRESSION OF EVOLUTION?

A:* They are the highest peak of evolution. But still they are human beings and not enlightened. Only the enlightened person needs no whip. Otherwise you need some kind of whip -- maybe made of very soft material.

Q:* SO YOU SAID THE WHOLE FAULT FOR THIS TRAGIC AFFAIR HERE WAS YOURS. YOU

WILL NOT ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN AGAIN. WHAT KIND OF SAFEGUARDS ARE YOU PLANNING

AND WHAT KIND OF... COULD THERE BE?

A:* One is that I will be available. I am not going into silence as long as I am alive, and perhaps even afterwards.

Q:* WAS IT A REAL THREAT THAT WHEN YOU SAID THAT YOU MIGHT NOT DO ANYTHING

AGAINST A SECOND SHEELA IF THERE IS A SECOND SHEELA HERE IN THE COMMUNE COMING

UP?

A:* If the people do not take the responsibility and it seems that they need a Sheela, that they cannot work without her, that they cannot exist without her, then to stop the second Sheela will be harming these people. This time I had to stop because I felt Sheela is harming them. To prevent that harm, I stopped Sheela. But if I see that preventing Sheela is more harmful to these people, then what is the point of preventing Sheela? It is a question of relativity.

Q:* YOU TOLD THIS MORNING THAT SOME OF YOUR PEOPLE ARE FORCING THEIR WAY TO

YOUR HOUSE. DOES THAT MEAN THAT THESE PEOPLE BECOME A NUISANCE TO YOU, A BURDEN THE COMMUNE MAYBE, OR THE COMMUNE A BURDEN TO YOU?

A:* No, it is just one or two week, just a period of transmission when Sheela and her group has gone. It happens everywhere whenever one structure changes and another structure takes its place. There is bound to be a gap, which is more or less chaotic. So it is not going to be a permanent thing. Just two hours they will harass me and then they will be okay. That is not a problem.

Q:* LET'S COME BACK TO THE CRIMES SHEELA AND HER GANG HAVE COMMITTED. SOME

PEOPLE WILL SAY THAT THERE ARE NO REAL CRIMES, THAT IT IS JUST KIND OF A POWER

STRUGGLE AND THAT YOU USED SHEELA AS A SCAPEGOAT BECAUSE SHE CREATED THAT

KIND OF HOSTILITY TOWARDS THE OUTSIDE WORLD AND THE OREGONIANS ESPECIALLY.

WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO COMMENT ON THAT?

A:* They are just being stupid, just being Oregonians, nothing else.

Q:* WILL THERE BE MORE HARD EVIDENCE COMING UP FOR THESE CRIMES?

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A:* Yes, it seems. And that will prove that they are wrong. it has nothing to do with them. Sheela has done real harm, but it will take time to find out everything. After second world war, how many years it took to find out all real harms that Adolf Hitler and his gang did? And you have not been found everything. Even you have not been able to find Adolf Hitler's body.

So it takes a little time. And this is more or less a small Germany.

Q:* ARE YOU ACTUALLY COMPARING THE CRIMES SHEELA AND THE GANG HAVE

COMMITTED WITH HITLER'S?

A:* Yes, it's exactly the same beginning. It is the same type of....

Q:* BUT SHEELA WAS STOPPED EARLIER.

A:* Yes.

Q:* FOR SOMEONE HAVING COMMITTED ALL THESE TERRIBLE CRIMES, PLANNED ALL

THESE CRIMES, I FEEL HER RETREAT WAS QUITE ORDERLY. SHE SENT YOU THIS LETTER, AND

SOME OF HER GANG OR SOME OF THE PEOPLE LEFT ONE DAY LATER. IS THAT CORRECT AND

HOW COULD YOU EXPLAIN THAT, THAT THEY WERE NOT ALL RUNNING AWAY, OBVIOUSLY, IN

THE SAME MOMENT?

A:* No, not in the same moment. She sent me this letter and I sent her the message that, what is her problem? "And just rest two, three days. When your cold is okay, you come to me and we figure out that what way things should move." And she promised that she will wait two, three days. As her cold gets better she will come.

But next day she simply left with the whole gang, even with the person who had brought the message to me, Savita, whom Sheela has suggested that, "If you feel right, then Savita will be perfectly able while I am gone to take my position, because she has been working with me all along and she knows everything and all the complexities and all the cases and litigations."

And I told Savita, "That's perfectly okay. If Sheela wants to go let her go, but only after she has seen me.

Perhaps she may change her mind. And you can take her place. There is no harm. Somebody has to take her place and you are perfectly okay."

And she was going to bring next day all the papers so that I can sign my attorney authority, that she is my secretary. Next day she also escaped with them.

Q:* GIVEN THE CHANCE TO SPEAK TO SHEELA NOW, WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO TELL

HER?

A:* Just I would like to tell her that she behaved in a very coward way. She had me let down. I don't care what she has done but she should have faced before she left. And she should have told me that what all* she has done and what is my approach towards it?

And in fact I would have been a shelter to her. I would have given all her illegal acts to the government, but I would have provided legal advisors also to protect her, because whether she did right or wrong, her intention I know was not wrong. Even if she wanted to kill me, then too I feel her intention was not wrong.

Perhaps she felt that my speaking is a danger to the commune.

So the first thing I have to say to her if she had come that, "You behaved in a very cowardly way. You did not prove your mettle."

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Query:-

Q:* DID SHE TAKE HER MALA WITH HER?

A:* She has taken.

Q:* AS FAR AS I KNOW, YOU ARE NOT SURE YET IF SHE HAS STOLEN SOME MONEY OR PUT

SOME MONEY IN A SWISS BANK ACCOUNT. BUT YOU MENTIONED THIS DEBT OF FIFTY-FIVE

MILLION U.S. DOLLARS. COULD YOU COMMENT ON THAT?

A:* It will take a little time, but certainly she must have taken money -- because from where she can get money for twenty people to travel, to stay in Switzerland or in Germany -- all their expenses?

She must have been siphoning money for at least two, three months. It was a well planned thing, it was not just a quick decision, because just yesterday I was told that they were looking for Puja, her assistant in all these crimes and the most criminal person in the whole gang. She is a medical person, so she knows more about poisons and this and that.

She was looking for Puja to be married with a Swiss sannyasin for two months. That means for two months they were preparing the ground. Otherwise there is no reason for Puja to be married to a Swiss sannyasin. There was no need at all.

So for at least two months they were in preparation. In these two months they must have siphoned money. Our money expert will be here who will be looking into... because we have several corporations.

Here we have several corporations, in Europe we have several corporations. We have a international service corporation.

So from what corporation she has managed money.... Right now they have looked only in the Foundation copies, but it says only expenses. But they may not be expenses. They may have been simply sent to Switzerland and they may not have been authentically expenses.

But it is certain she cannot survive without money, and she has no money. And the remaining others don't have money either. They had, certainly, a bank account in Switzerland and they were telling me that it is for me. In case I have to leave America I will need some money, and Switzerland will be the best place.

But the bank account was in Sheela and Savita's name.

Q:* AND THEY HAVE NOT RESIGNED FROM THAT?

A:* Just they have never even told me how much money. I asked again and again, "The account is for me, but at least I should be told how much money is in that account -- because it is in your two persons'

name. I cannot take a single dollar out of it. You can take the whole account, and I don't even know how much has been taken."

And they said, "We will tell you. We will find out." And this and that. But never. In these four years they were collecting money in that account, which may be millions.

Q:* IF THE COMMUNE IS IN FINANCIAL TROUBLE....

A:* No, there is no trouble.

Q:* IN CASE THERE HAVE TO BE MADE SOME SACRIFICES WOULD YOU SUGGEST THAT

SOME OF THE ROLLS ROYCES ARE SOLD?

A:* That seems to be impossible, because I wanted. I had even declared in the press conference that I would like.... Ninety Rolls Royces are simply sitting there. I use only one.

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all the sannyasins. But they don't belong to me, so I cannot distribute. I am not the owner. They belong to a trust, and the trustees are not willing. They say to them they are sacred because I have used them. They will become a memorial. They cannot be used by anybody else.

Now, I am legally out of it, because I cannot do anything.

Q:* IF YOU WOULD CALL THEM NOT SACRED, WOULD THAT HELP MAYBE?

A:* It is very difficult. They won't allow anybody to sit on this chair. The president of the car account must be here. John?

He is there. Come here. So listen from the horse' mouth itself.

JOHN:* We have met, the trustees, and we have decided that the cars are not for sale, not to be given, because they are sacred to us and we want them just where they are.

A:* Now they have (inaudible)*

Q:* WOULD YOU AGREE THAT THERE WAS SECURITY PARANOIA HERE IN THE COMMUNE

WHICH ALLOWED SHEELA TO ESTABLISH MUCH MORE WEAPONS THAN REALLY WERE

NEEDED, TO STOCKPILE THESE WEAPONS?

A:* No.

Q:* IF THAT'S CORRECT, WHAT WOULD YOU DO WITH THESE GUNS NOW?

A:* They will be delivered to the police department. What we will do with them?

Q:* SO YOU AGREE THEY WERE TOO....

A:* No, I don't agree. This is what the German mind does. I am saying if they are more than needed they will be delivered to the police. And we have a police department here. We need not go to deliver them to White House. But I don't think there are more than needed.

Q:* LAST TIME WHEN YOU CHOSE SHEELA AS YOUR SECRETARY YOU SAID IN YOUR

LECTURE THAT YOU DIDN'T NEED AN INTELLECTUAL, YOU JUST NEEDED A PARROT.

A:* Right.

Q:* AS WHAT, IF I MAY ASK, DO YOU SEE YOUR NEW SECRETARY?

A:* Because the parrot failed, this time it is a real woman.

Q:* MANY PEOPLE I INTERVIEWED IN THE LAST DAYS WOULD LIKE TO SEE

RAJNEESHPURAM TO BECOME A KIND OF A HOLIDAY RESORT.

A:* I would also like it.

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Q:* DO YOU SEE ANY PROBLEMS? I MEAN, DOES IT GO TOGETHER WITH THIS STRONG

FEELING OF BELONGING TOGETHER, OF TIGHTLY KNIT RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY?

A:* No. No. I would like it to become a holiday resort, but the attorney general of Oregon seems to be a crackpot.

We have been in every way financially helpful to the economy of Oregon. Already at least thirty thousand people per year are coming as visitors, particularly in festivals. If it becomes a holiday resort it can attract hundred times more people from all over the world, from America, and it will give Oregon an immense support economically.

It is a bankrupt state. Half of the land of Oregon has been sold to the federal government just to pay debts. Still there are more than two hundred million to be paid, and they don't know how to pay it. And I don't think they have any way to pay it.

But we can make this place really paying. Already we have put two hundred million dollars here, in this desert, to change it into a small oasis. But only a small part has been changed.

And we have resources all over the world which are ready to transform this whole desert into a lush green place.

Q:* DOES IT MEAN YOU WOULD LIKE TO BUY SOME MORE LAND HERE IN OREGON?

A:* No, no. This land is too much. We don't want to buy any more land. All that we want, that government should stop harassing us, should stop hindering us. We don't want them to be in some way favorable to us, no -- just fair, legally fair. They are being illegally inimical. And they are harming themselves.

Q:* OBVIOUSLY SOME OF THE OREGONIANS, OR AMERICANS, AT ALL DID NOT LIKE THE

KIND OF LANGUAGE SHEELA WAS USING. WOULD YOU SAY THERE IS A NEW APPROACH NOW?

A:* We will see. We will see, because what they don't like, they should stop using it also. It is not one-sided.

It is a small commune. And the language they use, they should be aware of it, that we are not Christians that we will turn the other cheek. We believe in tit for tat. We will hit their both cheek.

Q:* DO YOU SEE YOUR RENAMING OF ANTELOPE AS A KIND OF A PEACE GESTURE OR...?

A:* No, not as a peace gesture. Just because we don't want. There is no reason. I am not a political person. What we have to do with unnecessary burden? Because we have to keep police there, we have to keep sannyasins there, we have to keep the councilors there, and they are all needed here. Work is here. And our place is here, and we have so much to do that why we should bother for anybody else?

It is Antelope people's problems. They should solve. We are not interested.

It is not that... but I have just seen one video, news video, and the ex-mayor of Antelope is not willing that land or houses will be purchased from Rajneesh Foundation. If this is their attitude, then the name of Antelope will not be changed. It will remain City of Rajneesh. And if they are not going to purchase our land and houses, then we are going to purchase their land and their houses.

This way or that, but it will have to be settled.

We already have two, three... two-third houses and lands in Oregon... in Antelope....

Q:* NOT YET.

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A:*... and one-third are left only with them. And only not more than one dozen people are living there.

And if they are... the language the ex-mayor used, that she does not trust us.... What is the question of trust?

We are saying, "You purchase your lands and we are giving you at the same price as we had purchased it from you four years before. In four years the prices have gone high. We have renovated your houses, we have put money in your lands. We have made your dirty village in a beautiful place. And we are ready to give it in the same price as we purchased."

And even if she says that she does not trust, so what she wants? How she will trust? We should donate all this to the Antelope people? We don't believe in donations. We have never asked anybody for donations.

Q:* BUT YOU ACCEPT.

A:* We accept but we never ask.

So it has to be. So remember for my people that the name has not to be changed. Till they are ready to purchase all the land and all the houses, the name is not going to be changed. It is going to remain City of Rajneesh.

And purchase all other houses which are available to be purchased -- immediately. And finish that village completely.

Q:* BUT ALL IN ALL I UNDERSTAND THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO STAY IN THE UNITED

STATES, YOU LIKE TO LIVE IN THE UNITED STATES.

A:* Yes. I would like to stay here.

Q:* DO YOU SEE ANY DANGER THAT YOU COULD BE EXTRADITED OR WHATEVER?

A:* That can happen anywhere.

Q:* I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY SOME OTHER PEOPLE SAW THIS DANGER, BECAUSE YOUR SWISS

BANK ACCOUNT.

A:* It can happen anywhere. A person like me lives with death every moment. So there is no problem.

In America twenty percent presidents have been assassinated. This is the most criminal country in that way.

So if twenty percent presidents can be assassinated, if they can assassinate a man like Abraham Lincoln, it is really good to join with Abraham Lincoln and his company. There is no harm.

But it will not be so easy. That's why they are feeling so upset and so uneasy. Otherwise a country which has nuclear weapons to destroy the whole world is afraid of two, three dozen guns which are not even automatic? It seems silly.

And we are not afraid of their nuclear weapons. They can make a Hiroshima, they can make another Nagasaki. What our two, three dozen guns are going to do?

But they know one thing certainly, that if they do anything wrong to us they will be exposing their hypocrisy before the whole world.

It is not a democratic country. Only the constitution is democratic, but the politicians are not.

And we are going to fight for the American constitution against the Americans.

I would have gone. I had not come here to stay. I had come just for my health reasons. I would have gone, but it became a challenge. They will not give me the green card when I have every reason that the green card should be given to me. They have six categories; I have applied on five categories, and if they want I can apply on the sixth too: that is marriage. I can marry as many women as they want.

Now it is a question of challenge. Unless I get the green card I cannot move out of this country. If I get the green card I may leave immediately. I have not much interest.

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Query:-

Q:* YOU WILL FIGHT WITH ALL YOUR LEGAL MEANS OR WOULD YOU ALSO, I QUOTE,

"SHEELA, PAINT THE BULLDOZERS WITH YOUR BLOOD"?

A:* No, I am just fighting with legal means. There is no need for any illegal means. They are doing everything illegal but my people have enough intelligence to fight with them with legal means. And we will fight.

In fact, on those five grounds we are moving on each ground separately. Each ground will take twenty years to reach to the Supreme Court to some decision. If it is no, we start the second. If it is no again, we start the third. In one hundred years neither any of the NSI* officers -- and many presidents and many governors and many attorney generals -- and I myself will be gone.

So there is no problem. We can manage it. And they have understood, because what they are doing for four years? If they want to say no, four year is enough time. But they are afraid. If they say no, we move to the court. Yes they cannot say; no, immediately we go to the court. And going to the court, the problem is out of their hands. And courts are still fair.

Q:* IN CASE YOU GET YOUR GREEN CARD TOMORROW, WHICH COUNTRY WOULD YOU

PREFER TO...?

A:* Germany... because my next fight has to be in Germany. I have to see how much intelligent politicians you have got.

But this is certain. If I get the green card, immediately I am coming to Germany. So pray God for my green card.

Q:* I GIVE YOU TWO QUOTES OF SHEELA. WHICH ONE WOULD YOU THINK IS THE REAL

ONE?

"I'M STILL IN LOVE WITH BHAGWAN" OR "BHAGWAN IS THE MOST CORRUPT ON EARTH."

A:* Both must be hers, because love can become hate any moment. They are two sides of the same coin.

She had loved me now she hates me. But my love is different. Once I love, I love, because my love is not dependent on the object of love. My love is dependent on my state of being. So whether the other person changes, becomes different, friend turns into a foe, does not matter, because my love was never dependent on the other person. My love is my state of being. I simply love.

Both the quotes are from Sheela. Without knowing I can be categorically certain both quotes are from Sheela. Okay?

Q:* THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

The Last Testament, Vol 2

Chapter #30

Chapter title: None

21 September 1985 pm in Sanai Grove

Archive code: 8509215

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Query:-

ShortTitle: LAST230

Audio:

Yes

Video:

Yes

Length: 132 mins

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

PRESS CONFERENCE:

ABC-TV AUSTRALIA

PEOPLE MAGAZINE, SAN FRANCISCO, CA, USA

KOMO-TV, SEATTLE, WA, USA

ABC:* YOU KNOW THE CONSTRAINTS OF TELEVISION, SO IF WE CAN KEEP YOUR

RESPONSES AS SHORT AND SUCCINCT AS POSSIBLE IT WILL MEAN THAT MORE OF IT WILL GET

TO AIR AT THE OTHER END. AND YOU ARE TALKING TO AN AUSTRALIAN PUBLIC, YOU KNOW

WHAT THEY'RE LIKE: VERY SHORT COMPREHENSION PERIOD.

A:* Your question has to be short. That you remember. If your question has many implications then my answer cannot be short.

Q:* WOULD YOU SAY YOU'RE AN ENLIGHTENED MAN?

A:* I am.

Q:* IF YOU ARE AN ENLIGHTENED MAN, HOW COULD IT BE THAT FOR SO LONG SHEELA AND HER GANG WERE ABLE TO CARRY ON THEIR BUSINESS HERE?

A:* Enlightenment has nothing to do with it. There is no contradiction. To be enlightened simply means I know myself. That does not mean that I know everybody. That does not mean that I know future, tomorrow. It simply means that I know my consciousness is fully awakened, twenty-four hours.

I know my inner light. I know my eternity, my deathlessness. It has nothing to do.... In fact, if I was not enlightened, perhaps Sheela may not have been able to do what she was able to do, because then I would have been just as cunning, as political, as suspicious, as everybody else.

My enlightenment makes me loving without any condition, trusting without any condition. It brings my childhood back to me, my innocence.

And I still trust and love those people who have deceived. That is their problem that they deceived. It does not change my attitude. If they can change my attitude, they become my masters.

Nobody can change, by doing anything, my attitude. If I love you, even if you assassinate me, I will still continue to love you. Your assassination makes no difference. You can assassinate me but you cannot assassinate my love.

Q:* WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THOSE, THAT CONTEND THAT SHEELA AND HER GANG REALLY

HAD YOUR ENCOURAGEMENT AND THAT....

A:* No!

Q:*... AT A CERTAIN PERIOD YOU CUT THEM OFF FROM THEIR CONVENIENCE....*

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A:* Not my encouragement. Don't try to make your own implications. When I am present here, you ask me.

I was silent for three and a half years and in isolation, and I was not interested at all in any information. I was not reading any newspaper, seeing no television, getting no information. Everybody who was approachable to me -- only four persons: Sheela as my secretary, my physician, my dentist and my caretaker

-- they were told not to bring any unnecessary information to me. I don't want anything. I want to be left alone.

So my silence is not an encouragement. My silence became an opportunity for them, but it is not an encouragement from my side.

Q:* WHAT DAMAGE HAVE THEY DONE?

A:* They have done much damage. They have tried to kill innocent sannyasins. They have killed a man, a street person that they had brought here. They have burned the county planning office. They have entered into government offices in the night and stolen papers, files. They have even tried to poison me. They have made a bank account in Switzerland.

Just yesterday I have been informed by Sheela's old secretary that at least forty-three million dollars are in the account, and she was Sheela's secretary five years before. So in these five years, what else they may have accumulated there?

Q:* YOU HAVE NEGATIVE PUBLICITY IN PLACES LIKE AUSTRALIA FOR THE RAJNEESHEES, PRIMARILY BECAUSE OF WHAT SHEELA WAS SAYING IN AUSTRALIA. WHAT DAMAGE HAVE

THEY DONE THROUGH THEIR BUSINESS HERE TO THE RAJNEESHEE CAUSE?

A:* No, that does not affect me at all. Negative publicity I can change into positive publicity at any moment -- just like that. That is not a problem.

Q:* BUT IT HASN'T HAPPENED -- JUST LIKE THAT....

A:* It is happening. Just like that.

Q:* I DON'T SEE IT HAPPENING -- JUST LIKE THAT NOW....

A:* I see. And you don't have eyes to see, you have only a journalist's blindness. And I don't have a good opinion of journalists, remember.

I don't have any good opinion of the journalists, remember. They are just people who could not succeed in politics and now standing by the side of the road and throwing a stone on everybody who is succeeding.

So that does not matter at all. I don't care a bit what the journalists say.

Q:* BUT DO YOU CARE WHAT PEOPLE SAY?

A:* I don't care. What I care is what happens to my people. Saying makes no difference.

What difference does it make to Christians? People were not saying very positive things about Jesus, otherwise he would not have been crucified. Not a single hand was raised for him. Everybody was against him. But what harm that has done to Christianity? In fact, those hands which were raised against Jesus have created Christianity. If Jesus was not crucified, there would have been no Christianity at all, because Jesus was a Jew -- born a Jew, lived as a Jew, died as a Jew, had never thought or dreamt that he is a Christian.

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So negative publicity, what people say, does not matter. What matters is what is happening to my people. They have done damage to my people. And to do damage to people who are so loving, so trusting, so innocently ready to do things, is simply unbelievable.

Q:* WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE HAPPEN TO SHEELA AND HER SO-CALLED GANG?

A:* I would like them to come back and be treated in the university here. We have all kinds of psychotherapies. Because in my understanding, every criminal is a sick person psychologically. I don't believe in punishment. Punishment is barbarious, and all the courts of the world and all the governments of the world and all the laws of the world are still barbarious.

For example, a man wants to commit suicide and is caught. Then the court sentences him to death. Great minds! He has failed in committing suicide, now they are killing him because he was trying to kill himself.

(interruption for tape change)

Q:* WHAT CHANGES CAN WE EXPECT TO SEE NOW THAT SHEELA AND HER GANG HAVE

GONE?

A:* Every wrong that they were doing has also gone with them. But let me first finish my question.

These tapes change at wrong times.

Q:* IT'S NOT ANOTHER JOURNALIST TRICK, LET ME TELL YOU.

A:* No, it is not journalist trick, but they are part of the journalism.

I was saying that the very idea of punishment has failed, yet it goes on continuing.

You have never converted any criminal by punishment, change his heart or change his behavior. You have really made him a bigger criminal by sending him to the prison.

Your prisons are universities for criminology. So your courts go on growing, your police force goes on growing, your legal experts go on growing at the expense of poor criminals.

A great business is going on around the world and the criminals don't diminish at all. They are growing faster than your courts. And nobody sees a simple fact, that anybody who commits a rape must be having a repressed sexuality, so much so that he becomes obsessed with it, almost possessed by it, and does something which he would have never done if he was in his senses. All that he need is a psychiatric treatment.

The rape he has committed is not his responsibility, is the responsibility of all the religions who have been teaching celibacy, repression of sex.

If you want to punish, then punish Ayatollah Khomeini, punish Pope the Polack, punish the idiot Shankaracharya. But why punish these poor people who are just victims?

So if you ask me what I would like to do with Sheela and her gang, I would like them to come back.

They will be received with love and dignity. They need not hide in the Black Forest in Germany like criminals unnecessarily. They can be here back and they can accept what they have done.

Of course, the law will take its course, but we can fight for them. Right now they have put us in a position that we have to fight against them.

Q:* BUT YOU ARE PREPARED TO DEFEND THEM UNDER THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES AGAINST

ANY FBI CHARGES OR....

A:* No. Right now, no, unless they come here. Right now we are going to expose them to every charge possible. If they have courage they should come back and see how they are received, and then we will try in every way to fight for them. But right now we are going to expose them totally and clean the whole 1/08/07

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commune of all criminality that they have somehow contaminated in the very air.

Q:* IS IT TO BE ASSUMED THAT SHE IN FACT WANTED TO REPLACE YOU?

A:* Certainly it seems so, if she wanted to kill me. Or poison me slowly so I remain sick and cannot start being again amidst my people. Certainly that was the desire. And in three and half year she got the idea, because she became a celebrity. And the moment I started speaking her image disappeared from televisions, from magazines, from newspapers, from radios. And that was the real wound.

She was persuading me that it is against my health to speak. I said, "Even if it is against my health, what am I to do with the health? My health is to serve my people. If I cannot serve my people, then there is no point in living and being healthy.

Just being healthy is no point. I would like as long as I live.... It may be shorter life than you think. It would have been possible to live longer if I was not speaking. I am willing to live shorter, but I would like to speak to my people because I have so many things yet to say. My philosophy of life is not yet complete.

and before I leave the body I want to complete it so they have the total vision.

She tried to put guards on top of my residence. The excuse was that they are to protect me, but the reality was different. Because as she has left, those guards are coming crying and weeping that they have been put to take attention of everybody who comes to the house and the people who live in the house with me: be alert of them.

And just as I was coming here, somebody informed me that the guards were told not to have any contact with the people who live with me, not even to smile at them, not even to wave at them, not even to recognize that they are there.

One girl was in love with one of the guards. The guard was told that, "You stop all connections with the girl because it is possible one day you may have to shoot all the people of this house."

So they were not only ready to kill me, they were ready to kill all the people who are very close to me: my seamstresses who made my dresses, my shoemaker, my doctors, my dentist, my nurse, my caretaker, my kitchen people, the cleaners -- everybody lives with me in the house. They all have to be shooted.

And then she insisted to have a lock on my room from the outside, and the key will be with her. But I said, "What is the need of that?" She said it was just emergency, and any time if the guards phone her that there is some emergency, she can immediately come.

I said, "You live at least ten minutes away from my house. The guards can phone just inside the house and everything can be arranged before you will be arriving." But she insisted, so I said, "Okay, you can put.

I have no fear of death or anything, you can put. If it is your enjoyment and if you feel that the security, put."

But the people of my house, my caretaker, did not feel at ease with the idea, so she put another lock from inside.

Then she said that, "Because You have only one bathroom and sometimes something goes wrong in the plumbing, in the water system, it is better to have one... another bathroom so that Your routine is not disturbed."

I said, "You can make another bathroom."

She made another bathroom and just now we have discovered it is bulletproof. Why, what a bathroom needs to be bulletproof? And it has a door from outside of the house for the cleaner, but she must be having another key for that door.

And from that door anybody can enter and shoot me lying down or sitting, and escape without entering the house. And even you can manage to shoot the person who has assassinated me, the bathroom is bulletproof. No bullet can enter in the bathroom. She has just to shoot me, or anybody in her place, and enter into the bathroom, that's all. And from the bathroom she can go out without anybody in the house knowing about it.

Her assistant was poisoning cows just to poison my milk, so most of the cows are sick. And the vet is simply surprised that there is no disease, why they are sick? And it has been revealed just yesterday that Sheela's assistant, Puja, who was a medical person, has been visiting the place every night, and nobody knows for what. She must be injecting slow poisons to cows.

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simply escaped.

And only we came to know about things, and many more things may be there. Now FBI is here. They have their office here now, for few days, so that everybody can come and give the information.

And they are simply surprised. When they saw the bugging devices -- my room was bugged. The whole hotel was bugged. My caretaker's room was bugged. Other houses of people who had a certain intimacy to me were bugged. Everybody's phone was listened, taped.

And the FBI people were surprised to see the sophisticated instruments that they had been using. They said these sophisticated instruments were not used even in Watergate.

The FBI men yesterday said that for one bugging the person has to go for five years jail. And looking at all the buggings, it seems anybody who has bugged needs to be at least one thousand years jail.

So it is feeling purer, cleaner. People are happy. A fear, a paranoia, a nightmare, is gone. And it will not be possible to repeat it for the simple reason because I will be speaking and I will not go in silence again.

One silence has been enough.

Q:* WHAT DO YOU SAY TO PEOPLE, WHO BECAUSE OF THIS EPISODE AND BECAUSE OF

PAST HISTORY PARTICULARLY HERE IN OREGON, HAVE VIEWED THE RAJNEESHEES

WITH... IF NOT SUSPICION, EVEN PERHAPS, FEAR. WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THOSE PEOPLE

ABOUT YOU, ABOUT THE RAJNEESHEE?

A:* They should not fear any more. The people they were afraid are gone, and these people have never come in contact with the Oregonians. They are involved in building the commune, cultivating the food, the vegetables, making dams, roads. They have not come in even contact.

Those were the people who were in contact, and those were the people who created hostility. In fact, that is a simple device of all fascist minds. If you want to remain in power, you have to create hostility in the minds of the neighbors.

Q:* YOU MIGHT GO TO AUSTRALIA?

A:* No. Unless I get my green card, I am not going to leave America. If I get my green card tomorrow, perhaps I may start thinking going around the world to visit my communes.

I have one million sannyasins around the world and I would like to visit them, because they are all shaken whatever has happened here. They are in a confusion. But I cannot move out of America without green card.

So it is up to American government. If they want me to go out, green card first.

Q:* BUT YOU'RE QUITE HAPPY TO REMAIN IN OREGON, TO MAKE OREGON YOUR HOME?

A:* Yes, I am perfectly happy, because my health has improved, my basic problems.... I cannot tolerate humidity. My breathing immediately becomes disturbed and that disturbs my heart. So this cool and dry air is perfectly suitable to me.

I am allergic. Now, allergy is not a disease that you can cure. You can only take precautions. You can avoid it. Perfume, any kind of perfume, immediately gives me an attack of asthma. So here all of my people are aware and careful of me. They don't use perfume.

But in the outside world it is a little difficult. We cannot force everybody not to use perfume.

Dust, smoke -- anything can trigger my allergies. So because we have managed the whole place in such a way that the whole commune is air conditioned, no question of dust. The nearest neighbor is twenty miles away, so no question of any neighbor creating smoke, which was a continuous problem in India. We had to go and beg to the neighbor that, "Don't create smoke."

But this is not right. That is their thing. If they want to burn their rubbish or anything, we cannot prevent legally. We can ask them.

We have here one hundred twenty-six square miles area, completely free of neighbors. So no problem for my health. My health is perfectly good. In fact, I wonder why I was not born in Oregon, because if nature gives me this kind of body which fits here, then it must have been a mistake that I was born in India.

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Q:* DO YOU HAVE AN ULTIMATE DREAM FOR THE RAJNEESHEE WORLDWIDE? IF SO, WHAT

IS IT?

A:* No, there is no dream. But there is certainly a vision that anybody who loves me has not to become (Tape side B) conditioned like other old religions. He has not to follow me blindly. I don't require any faith, any belief. I want my people to trust in doubt.

Doubt to me is one of the greatest values. It is doubt that has created science in three hundred years. And religion has been trying to create life based on belief for ten thousand years, and nothing has come out of it.

In three hundred years in spite of all the hindrances created by religions, science has contributed immensely to every dimension of life. And the reason is its functioning is not belief, it is doubt.

I want a religion based on doubt, inquiry. So naturally there is no question of any ideology to believe in.

I am not giving any ideology. I am simply trying to deprogram my people, that their minds are completely clean and they can start afresh, questioning, inquiring.

And this is the way how I have realized myself. So I know it works.

So there is no problem. If they really inquire and don't fall victims of borrowed knowledge, soon they will discover their own source of wisdom, their own light. And that's what I call enlightenment.

And I am not their prophet, savior, messiah, no. I am not their leader. I am simply their friend.

And whatever I have I want to share with them. Sharing is such a joy that they need not feel obliged. I feel obliged to them.

So it is a totally different kind of milieu. Every individual remains individual, in fact becomes more individual, more integrated, more crystallized, drops all kinds of fears of hell and greed of heaven, and drops all kinds of lies -- the ultimate lie, God -- he drops everything and starts with absolute innocence, with the point that, "I do not know and I want to know."

And the method that is to be used in this inquiry I call meditation. And meditation need not be based on any belief. Meditation simply means becoming silent, utterly silent and collected together, coming to a point where you are absolutely alone, not even a thought moving in your mind or a mood in your heart, as if all time has stopped.

That is the greatest moment of experience, of explosion. And everybody's birthright is to come to that moment.

So I am not creating a Christianity, a Hinduism or a Mohammedanism. I am creating a group of rebels.

Q:* I THINK THAT YOU HAVE A CLEAN SENSE OF HUMOR. IS HUMOR AN IMPORTANT... HOW

IMPORTANT AN ELEMENT IS HUMOR...?

A:* It's very important. Serious people are sick. A sense of humor makes you more alive more healthy.

Q:* WOULD YOU DESCRIBE YOURSELF THEN PERHAPS EVEN AS A COMIC?

A:* You can. I am.

Q:* BECAUSE IT'S AN IMPORTANT INGREDIENT.

A:* It is. Sense of humor is absolutely essential for human health. Without it something is psychologically wrong with the person. A man who cannot laugh means something is dead in him. Life is so hilarious. All around it is fun. It is a carnival. So I call my people my circus.

And certainly I want their life to be comedies, not tragedies. So I am a comic.

Q:* I'VE HEARD YOU HAVE LITTLE RESPECT FOR PEOPLE LIKE THE POPE, MOTHER

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TERESA, MAHATMA GANDHI AND A HOST OF OTHERS. IS THERE ANYONE THAT YOU CAN

NAME...?

A:* No. I don't look up to anybody and I don't want anybody else to look up to me.

It is just one horizontal existence, no vertical hierarchy. And you said that, "You have very little respect." That is wrong. I don't have any respect, not even very little. I have very great disrespect, because these people are criminals. And their crimes are far bigger than the people you go on hanging or giving them electric chairs. These people are real criminals.

For example, Mother Teresa. You reward this woman with Nobel Prize. Universities go on giving her D.Litts. Countries go on pouring on... awards on her. And what she is doing?

All she is doing is collecting orphans and converting them into Catholicism.

One of the men went to Mother Teresa's one of the centers in Calcutta. The secretary asked, "What do you want?" He said, "I want to adopt one child."

Seeing that he is a white man, must be a Christian, she said, "We have seven hundred orphans. You can choose any. But first fill this form."

In that form he had to fill his religion, and he filled Protestant Christianity. And the girl said, "You just wait. I will have to ask Mother Teresa about it."

And back came Mother Teresa herself and said, "We are sorry, we don't have any orphans here. When we have, we will inform you. Just leave your address."

Just a minute before, there were seven hundred, but because he is not a Catholic....

He wrote letters to the newspapers. According to his letter, I criticized Mother Teresa in a public meeting. She wrote a letter to me that, "The real reason is that the children who are brought up in a certain atmosphere -- religious, psychological -- they should be given to a family where they are not misfits. That's why we had refused."

I asked her that, "All these children have come from either Hindu, Mohammedan or other Indian religions. None of them has come from Catholic religion. On what grounds you are teaching them Catholicism? You should teach a Hindu child Hinduism and give it to a Hindu family if you are sincere and honest."

And in her letter she has written also that, "For you I will pray to God that he forgives you."

So I said, "About the second statement, you have to take your words back. Otherwise I will sue you in the court. I don't believe in any God in the first place. And who are you to pray on my behalf? I have not given you my attorney authority. And what I have done that God has to forgive me?

"In fact, if he meets, he has to ask me to be forgiven, because it is he who has created this world ugly. It is he who has created Adolf Hitler, who killed ten million people, Josef Stalin, Benito Mussolini. He has to give explanations why these people were created by him, if he is the creator.

"I have not done anything wrong. Just to question you, is it a crime? And your answer is just bogus."

And these people go on teaching in a poor country like India against birth control methods, against the pill, against abortion, for the simple reason because if there is abortion, if there is birth control, if the pill is available freely to poor people, from where Mother Teresa is going to have more orphans? The supply of orphans is needed urgently for more Catholics.

That's why I call this woman is a criminal. And anybody who is teaching around the world -- and she is one of them -- celibacy is teaching homosexuality or lesbianism, and the ultimate result is AIDS. And these are the people responsible for it.

Nobody can be celibate scientifically. And I am simply amazed. There are millions of scientists around the world, doctors around the world, and nobody says clearly that celibacy is impossible. Because it is part of your biology, and biology is not in the control of your mind. It is not that when you want to perspire you can, or you can decide that, "I take the vow that I will not perspire any more." It is not within your mind.

Your body has its own program, which is absolutely determined from your birth.

So all your celibate saints are simply hypocrites. There has been no celibate ever, and there cannot be any celibate in future.

So the ultimate result of talking celibacy and teaching that it is something holy, sacred, causes homosexuality, sodomy, masturbation, nocturnal emissions and thousands of perversions.

Even Mahatma Gandhi at the age of seventy was suffering from nocturnal emissions. And you are teaching a young boy fourteen years of age that, "You have to be celibate" when he is full of sexual energy.

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Nearabout eighteen the boy comes to his peak of sexual energy. He can have from three to five love affairs in the night. But after forty-two even one is enough. And after fifty-two, once in a week.

Q:* YOU ARE NOW FIFTY....?

A:* I am fifty-five.

Q:* WHAT IS YOUR IMPRESSION OF RONALD REAGAN?

A:* Just a third-class Hollywood cowboy actor. Nothing much. And choosing him, America has shown its own retardedness. No intelligent country can choose people of his calibre.

It is strange that in America you have killed twenty percent of your presidents. This is the largest number in the whole world. Twenty percent of your presidents are being assassinated. And, in fact, those twenty percent are the most intelligent. The remaining eighty percent who are not killed are not worth.

Because any intelligent person creates trouble in retarded people's mind, because he wants to change, he wants to bring new ideas into existence, he wants to move country forward. And the retarded people simply want to remain where they are. So they are happy.

They were not happy with Abraham Lincoln. They were not happy with Kennedy, but they are happy with Jimmy Carter -- just a fool who knew how to exercise his lips and go on smiling twenty-four hours.

They are perfectly happy with Ronald Reagan.

But America needs better people and America has better people, but they should not come from politics.

In fact, better people don't enter politics.

Q:* JOURNALISTS DON'T ENTER POLITICS, AS YOU POINTED OUT EARLIER.

A:* Yes. Only inferiority complex is the cause of any person becoming a politician. He feels deep down inferior, and that's why he wants to prove, "No, I am not inferior. I am superior."

A really superior person does not bother about proving it. He is.

America should look in the universities, in the scientists, in the academies, for their president, because choosing these people presidents is simply dangerous, particularly at this time when they have so much power in their hands that they can destroy the whole planet.

I am not happy with Ronald Reagan. When America has so much intelligent people, what is the need of choosing third-class people? The only reason is, the third-class people fit with other third-class people. They are, of course, in majority. Somehow these third-class people have to be awakened, that, "You may be third class, but try to choose someone who is a first-class mind."

Q:* DO YOU THINK YOUR COMMENTS WILL HELP YOUR EFFORTS TO GET A GREEN CARD?

A:* I don't care what happens. Whatever in the moment comes to me, I say it. What will be the consequence, I don't care a shit. Okay?

INTERVIEW WITH DIRK MASTERSON(?) FROM PEOPLE MAGAZINE,

Q:* DO YOU...? YOU USED TO TAKE VERY LONG LONG DRIVES OFF THE RANCH. DO YOU THINK

THAT WHEN THINGS CALM DOWN AROUND HERE A BIT THAT YOU MIGHT GO OFF THE RANCH

AGAIN?

A:* No. Never. I go for a ride but my sannyasins have made a special road for me, too. If they can manage one hundred Rolls Royces for me, they can manage a whole road also.

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Half the road is complete, so I go. And other half will be complete before the winter, so I will be going, but not outside. We have enough land inside. Outside I had to stop because of the county road.

The county has been nasty. They have not worked on the road at all. When we had come here, they used almost every month to repair it. Now for years there has been no repairing work. The road is in a bad condition.

And I love my cars. So I don't want my cars to go on that road. Even when the cars come here in, they come on trucks. I don't allow them to drive on that road. And soon we are going to make our own road by the side of the county road.

Q:* IS IT SOMETHING THAT RELAXES YOU? YOU SEEM LIKE A RELAXED PERSON AS IT IS.

A:* Yes, I am relaxed. Everything relaxes me.

Q:* INCLUDING PRESS CONFERENCES?

A:* Yes, press conferences are just a great joy, because I have not come across yet any journalist who was not intelligent and who was not nice and it was a real joy to meet him.

Q:* DO YOU REMEMBER YOUR FIRST INFATUATION WITH A WOMAN?

A:* It is difficult because women have always been infatuated with me.

Q:* I HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM.

A:* I don't think. And if you want I can ask my women to stand up: "Are you fascinated with this man?"

Do you want voting here?

Q:* NO. LET'S GO BACK TO WHEN YOU WERE THIRTEEN YEARS OLD OR FOURTEEN. DIDN'T

YOU EVER SEE AN OLDER WOMAN WHO JUST KNOCKED YOU OUT AND...?

A:* I have loved so many women that it is almost impossible for me to remember who was first and who was second. I don't even remember their names. And every woman was a joy, because every woman has something unique to herself that no other woman has. So there is no question of comparison.

Q:* THERE'S SORT OF AN OLD JOKE IN THIS COUNTRY ABOUT THE SPIRITUAL SEEKER WHO

CLIMBS MOUNTAINS AND TRAVELS OCEANS TO TALK TO AN OLD BEARDED MAN ABOUT THE

MEANING OF LIFE. WHEN YOU WERE EIGHTEEN OR NINETEEN, A YOUNG MAN, DID YOU EVER

THINK THAT ONE DAY YOU WOULD BE THAT MAN AND THE PEOPLE WOULD COME TO YOU?

A:* People were already coming. In fact, I don't remember a time in my childhood when I was not already thought to be something who can advise people.

I had no friends of my own age, ever. I had friends always far older than me, for the simple reason because they were able to understand me: what I was saying, my arguments, my way of looking at things.

So it was not new and it didn't happen suddenly. It went on as back as I remember, that I was something separate.

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Q:* DO YOU EVER MISS THE FACT THAT YOU DIDN'T PLAY BALL AND...?

A:* No. I simply thought that those who are playing football are idiots. And more idiots the country has, more the football match is enjoyed. Otherwise, what is there? There is nothing in it.

Perhaps America enjoys football most. Millions of people sitting on their televisions for hours, just seeing few idiots hitting a ball from here to there. I don't see the point. If they are so much interested, they can have eighteen balls and go on playing.

But in America everything is possible. You enjoy boxing, which is simply barbarious. In California university they have been doing some survey last year, that after each boxing match violence increases thirteen percent to the normal rate. It remains for three, four days after the match and then slowly settles down back. And still you don't stop it.

And the people who are looking boxing must be somehow enjoying some identification with the boxers.

Some kind of violence in them must be getting satisfied. And if the violence rate increases to thirteen percent, it should be a simple legal matter that boxing should be a crime and should be stopped immediately.

Q:* DON'T YOU THINK IT'S BETTER THAT A LOT OF THOSE FANS ARE LIVING OUT THEIR

VIOLENCE VICARIOUSLY?

A:* Those are the people who must be increasing violence. So it is better to stop that boxing completely.

People should be given something better. This is something exactly the same.

In Rome they were throwing Christians before the lions, hungry lions. And the very civilized people of Rome were dancing and shouting and screaming and enjoying when the lions were eating the Christians. It is nothing different from boxing. The same principle.

So it seems we are not going anywhere, going round and round. And the University of California has only studied about the increase of violence. They should also study increase in rapes, and I am certain they will find more rapes happening after the matches of boxing. They should find other things also, and everything that is criminal will have a higher rate than normal because you are giving people opportunity.

With your films you are giving opportunity. With your films you are giving opportunity to them for being violent. All your films are just based on violence. Your matches are violence. And still you think that the world should live in peace.

Q:* WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT CENSORSHIP? SHOULDN'T A MAN BE FREE TO EXPRESS

ANYTHING EVEN IF IT IS VIOLENT?

A:* Man should be free to express whatsoever he wants to express, but he cannot interfere into anybody's life because the other is also free. And his territory should not be entered in.

If somebody wants to be violent he can go into the mountains and beat himself. Nobody should prevent him. That is his freedom, his birthright.

But his birthright is not that he should beat somebody else to death.

And as far as writing is concerned, it is certainly every individual's right. Whatsoever he wants to write, he can write. But he should be ready if he is contradicted. And if he is writing falsities, then he has to be prevented.

But on the contrary, something else goes on happening. One small group of atheists is publishing a book, a collection from the holy Bible in which they are collecting all the pornographic sections in the holy Bible. And it is five hundred pages. And that proves holy Bible to be the biggest pornographic book in the whole world.

Q:* WILL YOU BE SELLING THIS HERE?*

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A:* Yes. And once that book is published, we are thinking to publish it with pictures and colored pictures on glossy paper, because that is the ancient source of all Playboy magazines. But I was informed that already people are trying, government, to prevent the publication of the book. Now, this is against freedom of expression.

If those people are putting anything wrong, anything that is not in the Bible, you have the right to contradict in another book but you cannot prevent them.

Q:* I UNDERSTAND THAT YOU HAVE A DISCOURSE ON THE TIME YOU BECAME

ENLIGHTENED. ARE THERE OTHER ENLIGHTENED PEOPLE WALKING ON THE EARTH?

A:* I was talking even before my enlightenment, giving discourses even when I was seventeen, eighteen.

And there is every possibility that there may be enlightened people walking around here.

Q:* WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THAT PERSON IF YOU MET THEM?

A:* Just goodnight. What else you can say at this time?

(Tape side C begins)

Q:* IT'S BEEN REPORTED THAT SHEELA HAS CALLED YOU ONE OF THE MOST CORRUPT

HUMAN BEINGS ON EARTH. GIVEN THE AMERICAN CONCEPTION OF CORRUPTION, DO YOU

THINK SHE HAS ANY REASON TO SAY THAT?

A:* I don't know the American conception of corruption. I think corruption is the same whether it is in America or in Germany or in India. And if Sheela calls me the most corrupted man in the world, that's a great compliment. In fact, she is habituated to call me the most enlightened man in the world. Now she has to find something else, but "the most and the unique" still remains in it unconsciously.

She has put "corrupted man" instead of "enlightened man", but nothing changes. I am still the "unique"

and the "most unique" man in the world. So just tell her, "Thanks for your compliment."

Q:* THIS MORNING WE WERE TOLD THAT YOU WOULD BE MEETING THE POLICE AT ABOUT

TWO O'CLOCK TODAY, AND THEN IT WAS CANCELED. WHAT HAPPENED WITH THAT? AND IS IT

RESCHEDULED?

A:* Because they were not prepared. They were out* here.... I am an spontaneous man, always ready.

There is no question of preparation.

Q:* ARE YOU GOING TO KEEP YOUR ANSWER SHORT FOR THEM?

A:* No. Not for them. They need complete answers.

So they have been preparing their questions for two days and their questions are not ready. So they have canceled it. They asked that tomorrow afternoon....

So I said okay. Let them prepare their questions well, because I am going to put their minds right.

Q:* AND YOU'LL BE WILLING TO GO TO PORTLAND TO COURT IF NECESSARY?

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A:* If necessary I am going to the Supreme Court also. Anywhere, if it is necessary for my commune's sake, I will go.

Q:* I UNDERSTAND YOU LIKE ZORBA THE GREEK. IS THAT RIGHT?

A:* That's right.

Q:* CAN YOU TELL ME SOME OF YOUR OTHER FAVORITE FILMS?

A:* No. Nobody is comparable to Zorba.

Q:* HAVE YOU MET ANTHONY QUINN?

A:* No. But he seems to be a beautiful man. I have seen his other films also. In Barabas also he has done tremendously beautiful action.

But Zorba represents to me the materialist West and Buddha represents to me the spiritualist. And I want them to meet and be one. I don't see there is any antagonism or contradiction.

So I am Zorba the Buddha, not Zorba the Greek.

INTERVIEW WITH BERT RUDMAN(?) FROM KOMO-TV IN SEATTLE.

Q:* YOU DON'T LIKE JOURNALISTS MUCH, AND I WONDERED....

A:* No.

Q:*... I WONDER WHY YOU KEEP HAVING THESE PRESS CONFERENCES.

A:* It is not a question of.... I like people. I like you. But I don't like journalism.... Because I am not in a good health to go out, hence out of necessity I have to use the media.

Q:* WHAT IS IT THAT IS WRONG WITH THE WAY IN WHICH WE'RE REPORTING ACTIVITIES

DOWN HERE?

A:* First, the media is not brave enough to report correctly against the government, which is doing everything illegal here in this commune against the commune. Perhaps the media has its vested interests with the government.

It is not fair to us. Perhaps we are such a small minority that to be fair to us you may lose your audience in the Oregonians.

So it is not a question of being sincere, authentic but just to be businesslike. So whatsoever reports I see, I see you are looking from business eyes, not human eyes.

Q:* WE'RE TRYING TO ARRANGE WITH SOME OF YOUR SANNYASINS TO HOOK UP AN

INTERVIEW WITH YOU BY SATELLITE TO PEOPLE IN SEATTLE. WHAT IMPRESSION DO YOU

THINK YOU WOULD LIKE TO LEAVE WITH THEM, GIVEN THAT MEDIUM?

A:* Any question, because I don't have any secret to hide from anybody. So whatever they want to ask, they can ask.

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Q:* WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE THEM TO KNOW ABOUT YOU?

A:* Anything they want. I should not dictate them that what they should ask me. They should ask out of their own freedom and I will answer out of my own freedom.

Q:* WHEN YOU FIRST STARTED SPEAKING YOU HAD A PRESS CONFERENCE AND THE FIRST

WOMAN WHO ASKED YOU A QUESTION SAID, "WOULD YOU EVER BE ABLE TO GET ALONG

WITH YOUR NEIGHBORS?" AND YOU SAID....

A:* No, you are not putting it rightly. That's what I say....

Q:* THE QUESTION WAS, FROM THIS WOMAN, "BHAGWAN, WILL YOU EVER BE ABLE TO GET

ALONG WITH YOUR NEIGHBORS?"

A:* No. You are not yet right, remember.

The question was: "Is it possible for you and the commune and your neighbors to coexist?" And this is totally different, what you are asking.

I said, "Never." And this is where I feel.... Journalists continuously ask me to be short, but they cannot understand short answers. Now what.... The journalist immediately moved.

And by "never" I meant that "Coexistence never," because coexistence simply means hostility continues.

But fate has put us together, so what else to do? We go on compiling and holding our hostility. You go on repressing your hostility. This is coexistence. The way America has coexistence with Soviet Union, this is coexistence.

I was saying "Coexistence never; I want one existence." But the journalist did not even wait to hear me, that what was my implication. And she must have spread her own interpretation of the word never.

I was denying coexistence in favor of one existence. Why coexistence? You don't ask anybody else. You don't ask people of Madras that, "What about coexisting with Oregon?"

They why you ask us? We are part of Oregon. Coexistence is simply out of question. We are one. We are living on this land. We are loving this land. We are making this desert an oasis. Nobody has loved this land the way we have loved this land. For fifty years it was for sale and nobody purchased it, seeing it is a desert. And we purchased it, seeing that it is a desert it will be a good challenge for us, to create an oasis out of it.

I don't see why we should think of coexistence. It is one existence. We are Oregonians. It does not matter that you came fifty years before or hundred years before and we came only four years before. Years don't count, makes no difference.

The governor, Atiyeh, comes from outside. He is as foreigner as we are. In fact, in America who is not a foreigner? Except the red Indians, everybody is a foreigner.

And in fact mathematically we have been here only foreigners for four year. You have been here foreigners for one hundred year. We are less foreigner than you.

Q:* I ASKED YOU AT AN EARLIER PRESS CONFERENCE ABOUT SHEELA. I REMEMBER THE

LOOK IN YOUR EYES, THOUGH, AND IT WAS A LOOK OF GREAT GLEE AND LOVE AND WARMTH, A LOT OF TWINKLE.

AND MONDAY NIGHT WHEN YOU HAD ANOTHER PRESS CONFERENCE, THAT TWINKLE ABOUT

HER HAD GONE. AND I'M WONDERING, AS A MAN, AS A HUMAN BEING, DO YOU MISS HER? DO

YOU MISS HAVING HER AROUND?

A:* Certainly. I miss her. I miss any sannyasin who goes from the commune. It is part of my heart.

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them.

Q:* I KNOW THAT YOU HAVE INVITED THEM BACK TO THE RANCH AND WOULD LIKE TO

HELP THEM THROUGH....

A:* Certainly.

Q:*... SOME KIND OF UNIVERSITY THERAPY. AND YET, BY CALLING IN THE LOCAL LAW

ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES AND GIVING THEM ALL KINDS OF EVIDENCE AGAINST SHEELA AND

HER GANG, BY BRINGING THEM BACK YOU'RE PUTTING THEM IN THEIR HANDS..., SO TO

SPEAK, AND IF THEY ARE CONVICTED OF THE CHARGES WHICH HAVE BEEN LEVELED AGAINST

THEM THEY WILL BE PUT IN JAIL....

A:* We will fight for them if they come back. We will not support their criminality. We will not support whatever they have done is wrong. But we will fight that whatever they have done simply signifies that they are psychologically sick people and they should be given to a psychiatric hospital. Or you can give them back to us. In our own university we can treat them. Or you think it will be better to send them to other psychiatric place -- send them there.

But putting them in jail is simply barbarious. We will fight for that up to the Supreme Court for all those people.

Q:* IN OTHER WORDS, YOU'RE TURNING THEM IN, TURNING EVIDENCE IN AGAINST THEM, AND YET....

A:* I am giving, yes. This is the situation. I am giving every evidence against them and yet I will try to save their humanity, their dignity, their future, if they come back. If they don't come back, then it is beyond our hands.

They need not have escaped. They should have simply told me that, "This is what we have done," and we would have made them confess to the court clearly. And we would have fought for them. Not that they are not guilty. They are accepting they are guilty. We are accepting they are guilty. But our fight is that the guilty should not be punished, he should be treated. And it would have been an unprecedented case, and may have opened a new door for all criminals in the future.

Q:* WOULD YOU HAVE THE SAME POSITION HAD SHEELA BEEN SUCCESSFUL IN KILLING

YOUR CLOSE AIDES AND....?

A:* No. Not right now. Unless she is treated and is cleaned from all dirt that she has collected, she won't have any position. She will have just like any sannyasin: be here and work here.

Q:* WHY ARE YOU CONFIDENT THAT THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN IN

RAJNEESHPURAM?

A:* Because I am speaking. In thirty years it never happened in India because I was speaking and I was in direct contact with the sannyasins. And I don't have any power.

The situation is, the people who have power are separate. The people are connected with me, not because I have any power. I have no power at all. My power is of my love, my trust in them. And if I am seeing them every day, then there is no possibility for anybody to exploit the situation.

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answering their questions. And in front of me the president, Hasya, is just a sannyasin as any other sannyasin.

Sheela got a special opportunity. I was silent and in isolation, so I was not available to my people. She became my representative, and she started dictating her things in my name. Everything she did was done in my name, and people simply did it because my name was mentioned. They thought it is coming from me.

And I was not even aware of it. It was not even told to me.

Even in my room, when they bugged it, she told me that they are putting a switch for a buzzer, so that if there is any problem I can buzz so the guards above the house know that there is some problem and they can run down. So I said, "That's perfectly okay, you can put it." And the whole trick was that inside the switch they put the microphone. And I don't know anything about wires, that what wires they are putting and what is happening.

And they managed to put a tape recorder behind, in a bathroom for the guards. And it was not for any emer....

I had told that, "There is no problem. The guards will see anybody. If somebody is going to attack me they will see first. They are on top of my head, on the roof. I will not see. All the day the curtains are closed.

Nobody sees me, neither I see anybody. The buzzer is useless."

But she insisted in case. I said, "Then you can put it."

She deceived me and lied to me.

I never used the buzzer because there was no need. I never even touched it. It was only when she left, then the people informed that the room is bugged. And then the guards came crying that, "We were feeling so hurt but we could not do anything. We thought perhaps it is with your permission."

Q:* HAVE YOU COME UP WITH A JOKE ABOUT THIS WHOLE SITUATION WITH....

A:* Not yet. But I will come. I will come.

Q:* SO, IT'S COOL IN THIS ROOM. WHY DO YOU KEEP IT SO COLD?

A:* I love cold.

Q:* DO YOU HAVE ELECTRIC UNDERWEAR OR WHAT?

A:* No underwear. But I love cold, and I am sitting in the same cold every day in my room. So I am accustomed to it.

Q:* AIDS IS A BIG SUBJECT WITH YOU. WHY IS IT SUDDENLY, THIS YEAR, THAT YOU'VE BEEN

STARTING TO TALK ABOUT IT?

A:* Because AIDS has become important, and it is becoming important every day bigger and bigger problem to the whole humanity.

Perhaps humanity may* not need a third world war. AIDS may finish it.

It is not a disease, because there is no possibility from the scientists' side that there can be any cure for it. Disease means it can be cured, if not today then tomorrow. Someday we will find some cure.

But the opinion of the scientists is that there will be no possible cure for AIDS. The man has simply lost the will to live, and he has become vulnerable -- absolutely vulnerable -- to any kind of infection, and his body will not create antibodies to fight with any infection. So he can die by anything. Even ordinary cold and it will be difficult for a AIDS patient to get rid of it.

It is something more than a disease. It is something as if the major part of humanity is losing the will to live. There seems to be no meaning in life. It seems to be just a drag. Boredom, meaninglessness, anguish, anxiety, despair -- these are the modern subjects of the philosophers of the whole world to discuss. God is 1/08/07

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no more discussed, heaven and hell no more discussed. Anguish, despair, meaninglessness, boredom. And no answer is coming from any source.

So it is multi-dimensional case. Man has lost the will to power, will to live. He does not see any point in living any more. And doctors have known it for long, that once a patient loses the will to live, then no medicine is going to help. Medicine can help you only if you want to live. Real cure happens out of your will to live; medicine only helps the cure. But it cannot become the very cause of it. It is always secondary.

Secondly, the homosexuality has become so widespread. And the reasons are two. One is marriage.

Marriage is an artificial thing forced upon man unnecessarily. Because of marriage, men are bored of their wives, their wives are bored of their husbands. And there seems to be no exit. Things have become so complicated. Children are there, service* is there, economic, financial problems are there, old parents are there. So man is simply burdened with a Himalayan load. And there is no joy anywhere.

So he is simply dragging this whole load from cradle to the grave. Now, just to have some little changes in his life.... A man cannot move with another woman because her wife will immediately create great trouble. But he can go with a man and the wife will not make any trouble at all. If your wife is going with a man, you will feel offended. If she is going with a woman, there is no problem. You will not even think that they are lesbians.

So little change.... Marriage created the possibility that men should explore sex relations with men, women should explore relations with women. Even men have been found to make love to animals. It is so widespread because marriage is almost universal phenomenon.

The second cause is religions of the all countries. They have insisted that their monks should be celibate, their nuns should be celibate, which is absolutely impossible. They are asking something which cannot be done. So those monks who are living together are bound to become homosexuals sooner or later. The nuns are going to become lesbians.

So my own understanding is that homosexuality, lesbianism, both were born as religious phenomenon.

This is the greatest contribution religion has made to the world. And now homosexuality brings AIDS.

And AIDS is not like other diseases that you can figure out how it infects. It infects in many ways: sexual contact certainly, kissing somebody who has AIDS and you can get it through saliva. Somebody is crying and out of sympathy you simply wipe the tears of the person and you may get AIDS, because tears carry the virus. In fact, any liquid coming out of the body will carry the virus.

So you can avoid sexual contact but all these things....

You will have to declare celibacy illegal, that monks should get married immediately to nuns. For the Polack pope we will have to find... perhaps Mother Teresa will do.

Something has to be done, and someone has to begin it.

Celibacy should be declared a crime. So rather than declaring celibacy a crime, governments are trying to declare homosexuality a crime. This is sheer stupidity.

In Texas they did it. They declared homosexuality illegal. Suddenly one million homosexuals in Texas became criminals. And do you think just by making it illegal they will become heterosexuals? They will go underground. And anything underground is more dangerous than above ground. You at least know that this man is gay. They have their clubs, gay clubs, gay meetings, gay conferences. You know who is gay.

Now in Texas you will not know who is gay. And danger is more.

Christians in their religious festivals, Mohammedans in their religious festivals, drink from the same cup. Now, that should be declared crime. And nobody is even thinking about it, that these are the things which will spread things.

A single man in the whole group who has AIDS will be enough, and the whole ceremony will become really holy.

Anything that can prevent is the way we are taking measures: that nobody make love without condoms, without gloves. Kissing should be abandoned. It is of....

Q:* KINDA TAKES ALL THE FUN OUT OF SEX, DOESN'T IT?

A:* No, we can create new fun. It is not... Eskimos have never kissed, but they have all the fun. They rub their noses instead of kissing, and that is more hygienic. So why not rub noses?

Kissing certainly now is dangerous. And I think anybody you love, you would not like to put in danger of death.

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And there are other ways. Vatsayana, the oldest sexologist in the world -- five-thousand-year-old sutras in India -- writes that the best way is to press each other's earlobes, play with each other's earlobes. They are very erotic. And I find it, this is great!

Q:* YOU'VE TRIED IT?

A:* Yes. I never say anything unless I have tried it.

Kissing is really... I don't see. Even before AIDS I have never felt that kissing is right. It is dirty, mixing each other's saliva and this* French kissing and exploring each other's mouth with your tongues. You just take a film of what you are doing and then see the film, and then you will know that this is not the right thing. It is simply disgusting, sick. You will feel like vomiting. What is* happening? This is love and you call it enjoyment?

Q:* WHEN I GO BACK TO SEATTLE AND TELL MY GIRLFRIEND I'M NOT GOING TO KISS HER

ANY MORE, SHE'S NOT GOING TO LIKE YOU VERY MUCH.

A:* That's good. That's very good. Give her my blessings and tell her that I have told you to rub nose and press each other's earlobes. Explore something new! Kissing is too old and rotten. Okay?

Table of Contents

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Chapter title: You Are Totally Free

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Chapter title: The Intelligent Way

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Chapter title: Awareness Is My Successor

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Chapter title: Whirlwind Of Awakening

Chapter title: You Cannot Betray Me

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Chapter title: Religion Is Just Rubbish

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